Originally posted by aphydork

We should just ask players what the last challenging thing they've done is, without getting answers like, "Haven't had challenge in a long time, because games nowadays are too easy."

Then we can gauge where individual player skill is at.

What was the last challenging thing you've done? Be specific. Game, encounter, mechanic, etc.

Some raid boss in VG called... Rikitin? or something similar. Yes, was a while ago, hehe.

More recently, soloing battleships and groups of 40+ fighters on Freelancer, Shattered Worlds mod. Well, the challenging part was learning how to do those fights solo, then it was just a matter of patience and time... and lots of dodging.

Originally posted by Rossboss
If the game is too easy for me, I personally make it challenging. You know that broken class that nobody plays because it doesn't work like it "should"? How about that one build that no one ever does because it's not worth it in "end-game"? I play it. Yes, it can be frustrating, but ultimately makes the game harder than other players make it out to be. If the game is too easy, simply find a way to make it more challenging. Pick that wierd monk character that no one ever picks. Make that warmage that is broken and build it however you see fit. It's actually kind of fun making a game harder than it should be without making the game unplayable. Who knows, you may just find yourself in a new easy character that nobody even tried.

Sure we could make the game harder.  In fact I'll bet most of us already do this.

GuildWars 2 - I play my Necro five levels higher, sometimes I die a lot.  But if it happens too often I'll re-check my specs, weapons and armor.  Doing this I'll get upgrade equipment higher than I should and have to bank it until I become that level.

Still this does not solve the problem.  If a game is too easy players don't group and work together...Self making a game harder is solo stuff and we already have a lot of that.

HAY.....Look at it this way, If I already play five levels higher and play with three others, we would have to play 10 levels or hjgher or more !!!!......This easy stuff is getting way out of hand.

WoW easy?

I actually find WoW rather difficult. There really isn't much to do other than fight, fight, fight and fight some more.  Totally unrelaxing.  No way to destress.  Just endless combat until you get burned out.  It's a test of will just to keep doing the repetitive thing.

The games of the post-WoW era are the most hardcore I've ever seen, if hardcore can be defined as putting in serious hours.  And they aren't even fun hours or meaningful ones.

When it launched, up until the November 15, 2005 redesign, Star Wars Galaxies was the only MMO where I could log in, sit in the starport for an hour, and never feel like I was wasting my time.  It was easy to have fun in that game.

WoW?  Even the "fun" things aren't very fun.

Originally posted by stux

Macroing and third party programs made it the norm.

 

I remember Asheron's Call was awesome.  It was a grind to level in the game.  It was hard to find quest locations and items you wanted.  But you know it was fun like that imo.

 

 Then people starting macro and a few people reached cap fast then some more then word got out that a hard full of people were jus afk macroing for xp.

 

Then decal and third party programs became the norm with everyone afk macroing, botting, etc. and game fell apart for those didn't do.

 

There is no way of making a hard core old school grind game when third party programs and afk macroing  take over the old school players can't keep up without it get tired and leave.

 

The same thing happened in Darkfall.  So, many people macroing or glitched to max out characters then stopped the people who weren't.  A lot of people left some stayed and joined the macroes.  A percentage ground through it but a lot left due to it.  Eventually the developed greatly lower the character grind and it will probably help the games population imo.

 

Once they took character grind out, simplified quests by leading you around with the map everything just snow balled into easy mode.

 

But things like decal in asheron's call and other third party programs that made the games much easier started to take over developers just built them into the games.

Hard is the best.  

Decal saved AC.  Grinding XP was boring.  Who wants to PvE easy stuff for hours and hours over and over?  Decal leveled the field, made progress possible for people with jobs and lives, and made the PvP server about fighting for territory.  It may have hurt the white servers but what would it really matter for them?  

Likewise macroing in DF was up to players to discover and it was not easy.  I maxed my character in a few weeks a couple years back macroing on others in the ocean using complex programs and macroing spells on glitchable mobs.  Thats the nature of a PvP game and one as glitchy as DF.  It wasnt the macroing as much as it was the bugs, lack of hack detection, and related lack of polish that made the game of poor quality.

WoW is not hard.  Tab target, e-z mode pvp, gear based 100%.  It isn't even a real MMO.

TES MMO right now sounds like it might be the next real MMO (and the only good one in a long time), as in a full virtual world, not a 'sandbox' or 'themepark' but both combined.  Hopefully they can get PvP right, with loot, and not have a pussified sign up system.

Also without programs like decal (AC was one of the few games not to have the economy taken over by asian labor - i'd be interested to hear another - UO maybe? don't think it lasted long enough to count)   it will just be farmers instead.  At least bottable games give the power to the players.  One of the best things about DF was that it wasnt possible to bot to progress/make money once you were max skilled (which never took too long, botting or not)  and it was hard for unskilled labor to make good money also.

Give me corpse runs and de-leveling from death penalties. Questing without a exclaimation point hovering over a head and the odd hell level thrown in the mix to make it a real grind.

I met quite a few great people by having to rely on them to help me reclaim a body from a dangerous area because I was naked...was it frustrating sometimes, yes but it did add a level of caution when exploring a new area. As well as quite a few heart pounding moments when trying to escape a bad situation. It also added a true penalty for my mistakes other than having to shell out a few pieces of gold for a death.

Quests were as much about thinking as about killing, wasn't just go there and get me this item or kill a few of those goblins minding their own business...I used to kill those same goblins because I hated goblins.

I'm tired of getting to end game in a month.

And give me a snake to fight that can kick again!

Posted via Iphone:

On the treadmill here as I can't do weights and text. :D

Originally posted by nariusseldon

Originally posted by fenistil

 

Oh finding stuff was just an one element.  There are many more non-combat things.  Just see how Farmville or Sims are popular. Also many games, especially but not limited to strategies are either non-combat or have enourmousely big non-combat components.

Besides there are whole myriad of IP's and companies that were created with games that had 'finding or more precisely figuring things out' as game component.

Whole The Elder Scrolls series aside of Skyrim had no hand-holding and was also about looking, exploring and figutring on yourself. They also sold very well and were succesful games.   Same with Fallout, Baludr's Gate, Everquest and many more - almost every non-new game IP that were often a product that brought first big bucks and build certain companies legend was also about figuring things on your own.

 

Last but not least. I am not talking about solutions that could be used in total middle of mainstream biggest mmorpg's heavy-weights like World of Warcraft, Swtor or Guild Wars2.

I think of games that are on outskirts of mainstream, are 'medium' games. Not low-budget indie half-amateur and non-huge AAA with 50 mln $+ budget.

Skyrim has no hand holding? Last time i played, it marked your quest, not unlike WOW.

Same as Fallout 3, and most modern games.

 

 

Well I have written that Skyrim do have hand-holding and that previous TES games did not have.

Same with Fallout. I've written that first two fallouts that built whole Fallout legend did not have.

So I kinda don't understand your reply.

Originally posted by aphydork

We should just ask players what the last challenging thing they've done is, without getting answers like, "Haven't had challenge in a long time, because games nowadays are too easy."

Then we can gauge where individual player skill is at.

What was the last challenging thing you've done? Be specific. Game, encounter, mechanic, etc.

No thanks; while I might be accepting of your general premise, it's plenty difficult enough to discuss 'challege' without the voluntary posing.

Well, it sounds like in order for a game to challenge some people, monsters need to one-shot you, and you need to be pit against raid bosses alone that take a long time to kill and require lots of dodging.

That sounds like Guild Wars 2, except the regular monsters should do way more damage.

It also sounds tiresome.

Originally posted by aphydork

Well, it sounds like in order for a game to challenge some people, monsters need to one-shot you, and you need to be pit against raid bosses alone that take a long time to kill and require lots of dodging.

That sounds like Guild Wars 2, except the regular monsters should do way more damage.

It also sounds tiresome.

Trust me on this, most of the people screaming fanatically for "more challenge" really don't want it. It's their way of thumping their chests all cavemanlike. It's the nerd's version of a group of car lovers lamenting 1960s and 70s muscle cars.

Originally posted by fenistil

Originally posted by nariusseldon

Originally posted by fenistil

 

Oh finding stuff was just an one element.  There are many more non-combat things.  Just see how Farmville or Sims are popular. Also many games, especially but not limited to strategies are either non-combat or have enourmousely big non-combat components.

Besides there are whole myriad of IP's and companies that were created with games that had 'finding or more precisely figuring things out' as game component.

Whole The Elder Scrolls series aside of Skyrim had no hand-holding and was also about looking, exploring and figutring on yourself. They also sold very well and were succesful games.   Same with Fallout, Baludr's Gate, Everquest and many more - almost every non-new game IP that were often a product that brought first big bucks and build certain companies legend was also about figuring things on your own.

 

Last but not least. I am not talking about solutions that could be used in total middle of mainstream biggest mmorpg's heavy-weights like World of Warcraft, Swtor or Guild Wars2.

I think of games that are on outskirts of mainstream, are 'medium' games. Not low-budget indie half-amateur and non-huge AAA with 50 mln $+ budget.

Skyrim has no hand holding? Last time i played, it marked your quest, not unlike WOW.

Same as Fallout 3, and most modern games.

 

 

Well I have written that Skyrim do have hand-holding and that previous TES games did not have.

Same with Fallout. I've written that first two fallouts that built whole Fallout legend did not have.

So I kinda don't understand your reply.

sorry i misread your post. i thought you were saying the opposite.

But my point is that the trend is clear. Modern versions of those games all have a marker to tell you where to go and they all a) sell well, and b) critically acclaimed. No one is suggesting we should go back to where we need to blindly search stuff for hours.

Originally posted by nariusseldon

Originally posted by fenistil

Originally posted by nariusseldon

Originally posted by fenistil

 

Oh finding stuff was just an one element.  There are many more non-combat things.  Just see how Farmville or Sims are popular. Also many games, especially but not limited to strategies are either non-combat or have enourmousely big non-combat components.

Besides there are whole myriad of IP's and companies that were created with games that had 'finding or more precisely figuring things out' as game component.

Whole The Elder Scrolls series aside of Skyrim had no hand-holding and was also about looking, exploring and figutring on yourself. They also sold very well and were succesful games.   Same with Fallout, Baludr's Gate, Everquest and many more - almost every non-new game IP that were often a product that brought first big bucks and build certain companies legend was also about figuring things on your own.

 

Last but not least. I am not talking about solutions that could be used in total middle of mainstream biggest mmorpg's heavy-weights like World of Warcraft, Swtor or Guild Wars2.

I think of games that are on outskirts of mainstream, are 'medium' games. Not low-budget indie half-amateur and non-huge AAA with 50 mln $+ budget.

Skyrim has no hand holding? Last time i played, it marked your quest, not unlike WOW.

Same as Fallout 3, and most modern games.

 

 

Well I have written that Skyrim do have hand-holding and that previous TES games did not have.

Same with Fallout. I've written that first two fallouts that built whole Fallout legend did not have.

So I kinda don't understand your reply.

sorry i misread your post. i thought you were saying the opposite.

But my point is that the trend is clear. Modern versions of those games all have a marker to tell you where to go and they all a) sell well, and b) critically acclaimed. No one is suggesting we should go back to where we need to blindly search stuff for hours.

 

 

 

 no reason why you cant have both or multiple system for that matter. Does every quest really need a neon sign over the head of the player? no. Should some of them? sure why not.

i would have a blend quests as follows:

easy: neon signs everywhere. everything handed to you.

hard: you have to pick out the words from the quest and question of the questgiver to get the continuation.

there should be some reason to read the text.

Originally posted by Simphanatic

Originally posted by aphydork

Well, it sounds like in order for a game to challenge some people, monsters need to one-shot you, and you need to be pit against raid bosses alone that take a long time to kill and require lots of dodging.

That sounds like Guild Wars 2, except the regular monsters should do way more damage.

It also sounds tiresome.

Trust me on this, most of the people screaming fanatically for "more challenge" really don't want it. It's their way of thumping their chests all cavemanlike. It's the nerd's version of a group of car lovers lamenting 1960s and 70s muscle cars.

Disagree. I personally play all my single player games on high difficulty settings, and most of my gaming friends do so. It's got nothing to do with showing off anything but with plain fun, this simple. Believe it or not, for many of us, when it's easy it's boring.

Originally posted by rungard

 

 no reason why you cant have both or multiple system for that matter. Does every quest really need a neon sign over the head of the player? no. Should some of them? sure why not.

i would have a blend quests as follows:

easy: neon signs everywhere. everything handed to you.

hard: you have to pick out the words from the quest and question of the questgiver to get the continuation.

there should be some reason to read the text.

 

Sure, i am not opposed to options, as long as i don't have to play treasure hunt just to find the guy i need to kill.

And don't say is easy .. make the combat challenging and fun. People like different type of difficulties. For me, finding things is easy and boring .. put a neon sign so i can skip it.

Originally posted by gordiflu

 

Disagree. I personally play all my single player games on high difficulty settings, and most of my gaming friends do so. It's got nothing to do with showing off anything but with plain fun, this simple. Believe it or not, for many of us, when it's easy it's boring.

Well fun is different for different people .. hence there is a "casual" mode for most SP games.

Personally, i don't want to practice 3 hours moving around to get pass a boss stage.

Originally posted by nariusseldon

Originally posted by gordiflu

 

Disagree. I personally play all my single player games on high difficulty settings, and most of my gaming friends do so. It's got nothing to do with showing off anything but with plain fun, this simple. Believe it or not, for many of us, when it's easy it's boring.

Well fun is different for different people .. hence there is a "casual" mode for most SP games.

Personally, i don't want to practice 3 hours moving around to get pass a boss stage.

Exactly. Many people that play mmos just don't have time for this anymore. In a single player game you can always try something and if it doesn't work it's just a oh well, save, and try again later. In a mmo it just doesn't work like that you have other people relying on you to be there. I'm no longer a teenager and don't have the time that I can devote to that type of game play.

I'm not saying that everyone is in the same boat (or that you have to be a teen to have that sort of time) but the majority of gamer are hence why games that are easier. If the majority wanted hard we would have hard it's that easy.

In my perspective (that is the perspective of a gamer born in the 90's), I believe that the gaming industry is becoming so popular that the larger conglomerates like EA only see profits.

Developers will start treating their product as a source of wealth instead of a source of excitement. Part of seeing it as a source of wealth is to target the largest audience possible and you can't do this by making a game that only appeals to say, 200,000 people.

Part of this also has to deal with game companies getting larger and larger. When you are supporting a team of 100+ programmers, artists, designers, etc, you have to find ways to increase profits so you can actually pay your employees and make more games.

Indie developers are free from this burden and are, in my opinion, the future of the industry. Supporting indie games will a) give larger companies an idea of what we, as a community, are looking for b) show we'd much rather pay for content and challenge c) show we have lost some amount of faith in the major market.

That's my two cents, anyway.