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The Pub at MMORPG.COM  » The worst arguments against FFA PVP

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  Valerosus

Hard Core Member

Joined: 2/27/11
Posts: 9

10/25/12 4:00:13 PM#261

The way I see it is like this.

I don't care that games like that exist. I just don't favor them

I'm a PvE player through and through but I'm not going to bash people who play said games or get mad about it.

For instance. I play Aion and it often happens that while questing or grinding, whatever, I'll get jumped by an Asmo here or there. But whatever. If i know i can't take em on.I'll go to another map or do something else till they get bored and go back.

The problem is people these days just can't accept "dying" in any form. Hell i knew people who'd rage at the game itself after being killed by mobs or a world boss, etc.

But. Like I said. I don't mind they're existance and if the game looks like I'd enjoy it, I'll jump into it repeat my Aion process.(If possible)

The only games i tend to actually pvp in are games where gear has very little to do with the pvp. Like Elsword, Vindictus, etc. The action oriented games.

  Kyleran

Bitter Vet™

Joined: 9/13/06
Posts: 19249

Fools find no pleasure in understanding, but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV

10/25/12 4:02:42 PM#262
Originally posted by GrumpyMel2

Let me give you guys some insight into my UO experience. Bought it wat back in the day. Was pretty new to MMO's (had briefly tried Meridian 59).  Installed, connected, rolled up a character. Was trying to figure out some of the basics of play...move, talk, check inventory, equip a weapon, etc. I believe I had just figured out how to move a bit. I was killed within 2 minutes of getting out of the character manager. Didn't even know how to talk yet or draw a weapon, let alone fight. No big deal, I figured I would just respawn....killed again within a few seconds....respawn, killed again. I think I was killed about a dozen times within the first 5 minutes of player....never learned how to talk or equip an item let alone fight..I wasn't given any opportunity to do so.

So I figured, "This isn't working...let me log out for a few hours."  Logged in 3 hours later...killed again within the first minute.

Logged out and waited 2 days this time.....killed again within a couple minutes of logging in.

Is that what you guys define as "Quality PvP" or "Entertainment"?

Any guess what I did next?  What any sane person would do...I concluded that UO was pretty much a waste of my time where it was impossible to get started,  and certainly not any fun to be had. I uninstalled it from my hard drive and threw away the box.

Now my experience may have been the exception....I may have just had horrible luck..... there may have been great aspects to the game....however the only thing the experience I had of it was that it just wasn't worth trying to play.

Every player that has that sort of experience in a FFA PvP game is a player the game COULD have had but never will.

Now I don't care that a bunch of digital pixels I had was slaughtered repeatedly...I do care that I was being prevented from even TRYING to learn or play the game. YMMV.

Always some arses spoiling if for everyone else.

I recall back when Xyson was first getting going someone figured out you could use the terrain editor to create holes beneath the player spawn/respawn points so that the basically dropped into them and were trapped and fodder for whomever was waiting there to kill them.

Creative, yes. Good for the game overall, no, and of course they fixed that rather quickly.

But its the mentality  that thinks this is a good idea in the first place that gets frustrating and why FFA PVPers get a bad name sometimes.

 

Arrogant, Condescending, Dismissive, Elitist, "Meany", you speak as if these are bad things?
Kyleran - Bitter Vet ™ since 2006
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon

  Thupli

Advanced Member

Joined: 7/25/11
Posts: 429

10/25/12 4:04:07 PM#263
Originally posted by GrumpyMel2

Let me give you guys some insight into my UO experience. Bought it wat back in the day. Was pretty new to MMO's (had briefly tried Meridian 59).  Installed, connected, rolled up a character. Was trying to figure out some of the basics of play...move, talk, check inventory, equip a weapon, etc. I believe I had just figured out how to move a bit. I was killed within 2 minutes of getting out of the character manager. Didn't even know how to talk yet or draw a weapon, let alone fight. No big deal, I figured I would just respawn....killed again within a few seconds....respawn, killed again. I think I was killed about a dozen times within the first 5 minutes of player....never learned how to talk or equip an item let alone fight..I wasn't given any opportunity to do so.

So I figured, "This isn't working...let me log out for a few hours."  Logged in 3 hours later...killed again within the first minute.

Logged out and waited 2 days this time.....killed again within a couple minutes of logging in.

Is that what you guys define as "Quality PvP" or "Entertainment"?

Any guess what I did next?  What any sane person would do...I concluded that UO was pretty much a waste of my time where it was impossible to get started,  and certainly not any fun to be had. I uninstalled it from my hard drive and threw away the box.

Now my experience may have been the exception....I may have just had horrible luck..... there may have been great aspects to the game....however the only thing the experience I had of it was that it just wasn't worth trying to play.

Every player that has that sort of experience in a FFA PvP game is a player the game COULD have had but never will.

Now I don't care that a bunch of digital pixels I had was slaughtered repeatedly...I do care that I was being prevented from even TRYING to learn or play the game. YMMV.

And those are the types of players that people label "sociopaths".  They are just bullying for the sake of bullying.  How can you even find that fun?  It's fun because you are dominating and demoralizing someone.  That is the type of crap that FFA pvp needs to deal with to make a come-back in this genre, and it does need a come-back.

  Entinerint

Hard Core Member

Joined: 5/06/12
Posts: 725

10/25/12 4:05:11 PM#264

I personally love FFA full-loot PvP. 

I am terrible at it, a bad pvper, but that isn't why I play them.  I get "ganked" all the time.  Even when my stats are maxxed, I'm just not that good at combat. 

I play them because there's nothing more exciting than living with that constant fear of death/robbery looming over everything you do.  It completely changes my mentality towards the game and immerses me wholesale in the world.

That said, I would love to see a game have an actually robust crime and punishment system in place, instead of just what Darkfall and Mortal have, which is basically a flagging system.  The towers in DF and the guard in Mortal are inadequate in the pursuit of negative reinforcement.

Murderers, thieves and criminals should have a hard life in those worlds, having to lay low, etc.  I think DF:UW will have this a bit more handled due to everyone starting as blue, and reds only really being murderers/criminals.  Anti-PKers will have a much easier time IDing PKers.

Very much looking forward to it!

  Anthara

Apprentice Member

Joined: 8/14/06
Posts: 77

10/25/12 4:08:29 PM#265
Originally posted by ShakyMo
Grumpy:

So say on a pve wow server

How do you deal with that bot that's mining all your nodes?

That's BS... if you're getting ninjaed by a bot in mining nodes you are probably afk in the same place for hours.
How do you get back that guy that kicked you right at the end of the boss fight so he could ninja the loot?
That's not possible anymore and when it did... same as other games. You grow a mature brain and enjoy life.
How do you stop the guy that trained a bunch of mobs onto you?
BS
How do you stop the guy that watches you clear a path to the named quest mob then rushes in and grabs it at the last minute for the lolz? Again, you grow a brain and stop clearing the path and play mind tricks with that guy.
How do you do the raid progression without encountering gear score nazis? You join a guild.

 

  Entinerint

Hard Core Member

Joined: 5/06/12
Posts: 725

10/25/12 4:48:32 PM#266
Originally posted by Anthara
Originally posted by ShakyMo
Grumpy:

So say on a pve wow server

How do you deal with that bot that's mining all your nodes?

That's BS... if you're getting ninjaed by a bot in mining nodes you are probably afk in the same place for hours.
How do you get back that guy that kicked you right at the end of the boss fight so he could ninja the loot?
That's not possible anymore and when it did... same as other games. You grow a mature brain and enjoy life.
How do you stop the guy that trained a bunch of mobs onto you?
BS
How do you stop the guy that watches you clear a path to the named quest mob then rushes in and grabs it at the last minute for the lolz? Again, you grow a brain and stop clearing the path and play mind tricks with that guy.
How do you do the raid progression without encountering gear score nazis? You join a guild.

 

So pretty much "grow a brain."  Same thing the other side might say to the carebears.  Nice way of illustrating the OPs point.

  Elsabolts

Advanced Member

Joined: 10/03/06
Posts: 2675

Life Liberty and the Pursuit of those that would threaten It

10/25/12 4:57:35 PM#267

Why in the World would you want to pay a montly sub to get ganked !

" Grad Student Living with Mon and Dad "

  User Deleted
10/25/12 5:20:26 PM#268
Originally posted by BadSpock
Originally posted by stayontarget

This is the argument I hate the most.

"They are forcing me to pvp"

(no one is forcing you to buy the game silly)

Well that's the argument I hate the most.

There are no sandbox games (not really) where forced PvP isn't an option.

Some of us love sandbox, don't love forced PvP, and so are left with... memories of SWG and UO post-Trammel.

There is no such thing as forced pvp.

 

Btw SWG died on it's arse and UO after Tram dwindled away to where it is now. Not sure they are the greatest adverts for pve sandboxes.

 

 

 

 

  Torgrim

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 12/15/05
Posts: 2171

10/25/12 5:24:35 PM#269

FFA PVP MMORPG with little PVE content wil only attract the PVPer and face it in a FFA PVP game those PVP are in a small majority.

Look at Darkfall, what do most players do in that game?, yes you are correct they PVP.

If a game is made like UO pree Tramel you have a healthy population of PVPer and PVEr.

Sadly todays so called UO vets who are making games are focusing way to much on PVP.

If it's not broken, you are not innovating.

  ShakyMo

Apprentice Member

Joined: 11/21/11
Posts: 7246

10/25/12 5:27:32 PM#270
Most of the gear score Nazi are in raid guilds
  OG_Zorvan

Apprentice Member

Joined: 8/31/12
Posts: 646

10/25/12 5:30:49 PM#271
Originally posted by bunnyhopper
Originally posted by BadSpock
Originally posted by stayontarget

This is the argument I hate the most.

"They are forcing me to pvp"

(no one is forcing you to buy the game silly)

Well that's the argument I hate the most.

There are no sandbox games (not really) where forced PvP isn't an option.

Some of us love sandbox, don't love forced PvP, and so are left with... memories of SWG and UO post-Trammel.

There is no such thing as forced pvp.

 

Btw SWG died on it's arse and UO after Tram dwindled away to where it is now. Not sure they are the greatest adverts for pve sandboxes.

 

 

 

 

Even at their worst numbers, those "pve sandboxes" still managed to obliterate the numbers of the "pvp sandboxes"  Shadowbane, Darkfall, and Mortal Online combined.

EA CEO John Riccitiello's on future microtransactions: "When you are six hours into playing Battlefield and you run out of ammo in your clip, and we ask you for a dollar to reload, you're really not very price sensitive at that point in time...We're not gouging, but we're charging."

  Jonoku

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 6/08/12
Posts: 663

"Veni Vidi Vici"

10/25/12 5:31:40 PM#272
What about the excuse of saying that Faction/Server PvP is more social then free for all? I mean part of MMOs is the social aspect.

Looking at: The Repopulation
Preordering: None
Playing: Random Games

  Anthara

Apprentice Member

Joined: 8/14/06
Posts: 77

10/25/12 5:35:16 PM#273
Originally posted by Entinerint
Originally posted by Anthara
Originally posted by ShakyMo
Grumpy:

So say on a pve wow server

How do you deal with that bot that's mining all your nodes?

That's BS... if you're getting ninjaed by a bot in mining nodes you are probably afk in the same place for hours.
How do you get back that guy that kicked you right at the end of the boss fight so he could ninja the loot?
That's not possible anymore and when it did... same as other games. You grow a mature brain and enjoy life.
How do you stop the guy that trained a bunch of mobs onto you?
BS
How do you stop the guy that watches you clear a path to the named quest mob then rushes in and grabs it at the last minute for the lolz? Again, you grow a brain and stop clearing the path and play mind tricks with that guy.
How do you do the raid progression without encountering gear score nazis? You join a guild.

 

So pretty much "grow a brain."  Same thing the other side might say to the carebears.  Nice way of illustrating the OPs point.

The OP's is pointing out his criticism to the whole MMO comunity in general. And he and everybody else can't avoid falling in the same boat by cheap spiting the word "WoW" into a thread, because its considered cool this days and a sign of experience and good "taste".

I would prefer to read genuine stuff instead of the so cool trend of WoW hate this days. A game i don't play but that I know very well. Wich is not your case for sure. If it is, you are beeing biased.

  User Deleted
10/25/12 5:35:56 PM#274
Originally posted by OG_Zorvan
Originally posted by bunnyhopper
Originally posted by BadSpock
Originally posted by stayontarget
 

Even at their worst numbers, those "pve sandboxes" still managed to obliterate the numbers of the "pvp sandboxes"  Shadowbane, Darkfall, and Mortal Online combined.

One had a mega IP and failed, the other had little to no competition in it's pomp. Moreover a sandbox with FFA pvp and looting obliterates both in terms of numbers and longevity (EVE).

 

The simple fact of the matter is the two principal pve sandbox mmos (taking post Tram UO into account) hardly have a glorious track record.

  Trudge34

Apprentice Member

Joined: 8/08/12
Posts: 389

10/25/12 5:51:19 PM#275

I'm usually not one for much PvP, limiting myself usually to the random arenas scattered around Norrath, but I think for a FFA PvP game to really make it big and be worth playing there would have to be really harsh penalties for killing another player as well as there being some incentive to do so though. Be it some gear, quest or some coin or even just some faction / random PvP, there needs to be some big time risk vs reward. Maybe killing an elf as an orc player rewards you with higher faction from your own city as they're at war with each other constantly.

It would probably work best in a sandbox situation where some people could go outlaw and build their own camp away from town, recruit their own merchants and other NPCs that you'd find from a camp which would also be vulnerable to being raided by opposing faciton players. Maybe in each city there's a "Most Wanted" board of people who kill lowbies or just a lot of people. Their "last known location" that can be updated by players and have a gold reward. Maybe someone on the list can sneak in and update that list on his own or take his name off. Should be guarded by a high level guard so again, big risk and reward. Would have to make it tough enough where every person with a sneak skill wouldn't be able to do it though. Lots of checks and balances to go into it IMO.

Think a well done FFA sandboxy game I could really get into, there just hasn't really been one out there that's got my attention and worth trying for me. Thought about looking into DF:UW but we'll see.

Played: EQ1 (10 Years), Guild Wars, Rift, TERA
Tried: EQ2, Vanguard, Lord of the Rings Online, Dungeons and Dragons Online, Runes of Magic and countless others...
Currently Playing: GW2

Nytlok Sylas
80 Sylvari Ranger

  Ehliya

Advanced Member

Joined: 7/13/06
Posts: 189

10/25/12 6:01:09 PM#276

I am generally pro-PVP, but even I have to admit that many complaints about FFA PVP are valid.  First off, many games are poorly designed which allows a lot of room for action by exploiters.  Exploits have a lot more impact in competitive situations where something is at risk.  Second, the PVP itself is often tacked on as an afterthought so that you end up with "PVP" that consists of level 80's roaming the level 20 quest areas killing people who have no chance to fight back.  And finally, yes, many who say they like FFA PVP are in fact dirt bags.  Not all and of course there are DBs in all walks of life.  But make an online game with anonymity and add in the ability to run around killing other players and you are going to get a higher concentration of DBs.

The proof is in the pudding.  Old UO had to create Trammel because the griefers were impacting their business model.  No business can survive if part of its customer base dedicates its playtime to driving the rest out of the game.

PVPers have only themselves to blame.  Time and again, given freedom, they have abused it.  That's the plain truth.

  User Deleted
10/25/12 6:07:49 PM#277
Originally posted by Ehliya
  Old UO had to create Trammel because the griefers were impacting their business model.
 

The figures show UO growing continuously throughout the entire pre Tram period.

 

Actually ignore that, it is so far off topic it doesn't matter :)

 

  Beatnik59

Advanced Member

Joined: 11/23/05
Posts: 2235

"Playing things I shouldn''t be playing since 1977."

10/25/12 6:15:31 PM#278

I don't consider myself a "ganker," although I do enjoy the occasional PvP scrum once in awhile.

Nevertheless, I support "world-PvP," "non-consensual" or "flagged eligible" PvP, and--dare I say--"ganks."

The reason I do is because, even though I--personally--don't play the games to "gank," I realize that this is fun for someone, so who am I to dictate that a person can't enjoy their playstyle?

See, all the arguments that I've heard against the "ganker" playstyle can--and has--been applied to every other playstyle.  Believe me, because I've been in the trenches of the "great playstyle wars" of the early to middle 2000s, where we pseudo-intellectualized entire playstyles as "wrong" and "irrelevant." 

See, gankers were the easiest players to dismiss, but they weren't the last players.  And arguments kept on coming out against other playstyles, based on the logic that if a feature isn't something I like, it shouldn't be a feature.

"Nobody likes being forced to PvP, so make it so nobody is forced to PvP."  Result: you marginalize the ganker's place in the world.

"Nobody likes being forced to go to the crafter, so make it so nobody is forced to go to the crafter."  Result: you marginalize the crafter's place in the world.

"Nobody likes being forced to travel, so make it so nobody is forced to travel."  Result: you marginalize the explorer's place in the world.

"Nobody likes being forced to roleplay, so make it so nobody is forced to roleplay."  Result: you marginalize the roleplayer's place in the world.

And it goes on and on and on.  But the sum result of all these requests didn't make systems better.  It removed systems altogether.  It removed all the diverse notions of fun that made this genre unique, that made MMORPG players the most cosmopolitan and diverse community that software entertainment had ever known.

See, I support open-world, non-consensual PvP for the same reasons I support roleplay, crafting, exploration, raids: they all--in their own ways--create a robust and diverse player community.

So, gankers.  I support your PvP.  I'll subject myself to your ganks from time to time.  But, you ought to promise me something.

Promise me you'll act in character sometimes to maintain immersion.  Take immersion seriously, and know you have to do your part to maintain it.  Don't go running off to the buffbot or lootbot to twink your toon out.  Become a citizen of the game, not just of your guild.  Support player crafting, decay, and all of the things that are needed for a robust game for your non-combat players.  Don't ask for travel times or downtime to be nerfed, simply because it's more convenient for you.

We're all in this together.  Because unless we all put up with things we don't necessarily understand or like, we shouldn't be surprised when the developers take away the things we do like.

__________________________
"Its sad when people use religion to feel superior, its even worse to see people using a video game to do it."
--Arcken

"...when it comes to pimping EVE I have little restraints."
--Hellmar, CEO of CCP.

"It's like they took a gun, put it to their nugget sack and pulled the trigger over and over again, each time telling us how great it was that they were shooting themselves in the balls."
--Exar_Kun on SWG's NGE

  rungard

Novice Member

Joined: 7/25/03
Posts: 1037

The Sandbox Foundation does not exist!

10/25/12 6:28:37 PM#279
Originally posted by Beatnik59

I don't consider myself a "ganker," although I do enjoy the occasional PvP scrum once in awhile.

Nevertheless, I support "world-PvP," "non-consensual" or "flagged eligible" PvP, and--dare I say--"ganks."

The reason I do is because, even though I--personally--don't play the games to "gank," I realize that this is fun for someone, so who am I to dictate that a person can't enjoy their playstyle?

See, all the arguments that I've heard against the "ganker" playstyle can--and has--been applied to every other playstyle.  Believe me, because I've been in the trenches of the "great playstyle wars" of the early to middle 2000s, where we pseudo-intellectualized entire playstyles as "wrong" and "irrelevant." 

See, gankers were the easiest players to dismiss, but they weren't the last players.  And arguments kept on coming out against other playstyles, based on the logic that if a feature isn't something I like, it shouldn't be a feature.

"Nobody likes being forced to PvP, so make it so nobody is forced to PvP."  Result: you marginalize the ganker's place in the world.

"Nobody likes being forced to go to the crafter, so make it so nobody is forced to go to the crafter."  Result: you marginalize the crafter's place in the world.

"Nobody likes being forced to travel, so make it so nobody is forced to travel."  Result: you marginalize the explorer's place in the world.

"Nobody likes being forced to roleplay, so make it so nobody is forced to roleplay."  Result: you marginalize the roleplayer's place in the world.

And it goes on and on and on.  But the sum result of all these requests didn't make systems better.  It removed systems altogether.  It removed all the diverse notions of fun that made this genre unique, that made MMORPG players the most cosmopolitan and diverse community that software entertainment had ever known.

See, I support open-world, non-consensual PvP for the same reasons I support roleplay, crafting, exploration, raids: they all--in their own ways--create a robust and diverse player community.

So, gankers.  I support your PvP.  I'll subject myself to your ganks from time to time.  But, you ought to promise me something.

Promise me you'll act in character sometimes to maintain immersion.  Take immersion seriously, and know you have to do your part to maintain it.  Don't go running off to the buffbot or lootbot to twink your toon out.  Become a citizen of the game, not just of your guild.  Support player crafting, decay, and all of the things that are needed for a robust game for your non-combat players.  Don't ask for travel times or downtime to be nerfed, simply because it's more convenient for you.

We're all in this together.  Because unless we all put up with things we don't necessarily understand or like, we shouldn't be surprised when the developers take away the things we do like.

 I fully agree. You have to have it all. You cant simply dismiss playstyles and segregate them ...you need to find the appropiate rules that will allow everyone to coexist. There are ways to make every playstyle work together, whether its crafting, roleplaying, pvping, pveing, and raiding. This doesnt mean that everyone gets exactly what they want.

though i wouldnt trust the gankers to do the right thing no more than the raiders, i would ensure that the games ruleset is strong enough to ensure coexistance.

  snapfusion

Apprentice Member

Joined: 7/17/11
Posts: 976

10/25/12 6:29:52 PM#280
Ive got the best argument there is, I dont like it, and for me thats all that matters.  But nice wall of text just the same.
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