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EverQuest Next

EverQuest Next 

General Discussion  » "Levelling up" in Everquest Next

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104 posts found
  Myrdynn

Advanced Member

Joined: 3/25/07
Posts: 1453

10/24/12 4:18:13 PM#21

I like earning exp and leveling, even in my sandboxes

 

  rungard

Novice Member

Joined: 7/25/03
Posts: 1037

The Sandbox Foundation does not exist!

 
OP  10/24/12 4:31:53 PM#22
Originally posted by Neanderthal
 

When he says that they aren't going to a skill based system in that quote I take that to mean classes and levels.  If it's not skill based and it's not level based then what else would it be? 

 

Ok, on the raiding thing I'm just going to copy paste the relevant part of the quote from another thread. 

--------------------------------------

Smedley said:

    " You make your expansion, the real hardcore players consume it in a month, and they're doing the raids over and over and over until the next round of live content that we put in. Typically, three or four times a year, we as MMO companies put new endgame in there to keep the raiders happy.

We absolutely need to build that style of content into every game we make because players want that."

----------------------------------------------

He says they need that in every game and he said that when talking about EQ next.  I don't see any other interpretation except that EQ next will have the standard issue endgame where you raid over and over and over to gear up so that you can move on to the next raid and so on.

 "What we want is a dynamic world that gives all those other possibilities and doesn't just say OK, go to raid X with group composition of X, Y, Z, and kill the dragon for the 52nd time to get the tier 800 gear. It's this rinse-and-repeat gameplay that's got to change, and so we're changing it.
 

what would you say this means? I never said there wouldnt or shouldnt be raids in eq next. I just wouldnt expect them to be EQ EQ2 or WOW raids. I think they will be guild oriented and not individual reward oriented which makes sense in a game that will have alot of building features.

  Neanderthal

Apprentice Member

Joined: 2/14/05
Posts: 1618

10/24/12 5:05:50 PM#23
Originally posted by rungard

 

 "What we want is a dynamic world that gives all those other possibilities and doesn't just say OK, go to raid X with group composition of X, Y, Z, and kill the dragon for the 52nd time to get the tier 800 gear. It's this rinse-and-repeat gameplay that's got to change, and so we're changing it.
 

what would you say this means? I never said there wouldnt or shouldnt be raids in eq next. I just wouldnt expect them to be EQ EQ2 or WOW raids. I think they will be guild oriented and not individual reward oriented which makes sense in a game that will have alot of building features.

 

He was saying that the most hardcore of raiders burn through new content too quickly and need something more to do between expansions.  They just need something more to mess around with while they wait for the next teir of raids to be released and that is the "other possibilities" he was talking about.  Or at least that's how I read it.

I don't know what this other stuff might be exactly but I doubt if it's going to change the nature of the raiding endgame.  He clearly said that they want the normal sort of raiding endgame but that they need something for the people who burn through content to quickly too keep them busy between expansions for the sake of retention.

So to me this says----same ol' same ol' but with....um, interior decorating or something to fart around with if you've maxed out before the next expansion put's you back on the treadmill.

Yes, I'm extremely cynical, jaded, and "glass half empty" after all these years.  But why shouldn't I be?  We've seen so much bullsh-t, misleading hype over the years I am frankly astonished that not everyone is as cynical and mistrusting as I am.   Basically, if someone in the industy doesn't spell out PRECISELY what they are doing with a game I expect the worst.  If they leave themselves any wiggle room I assume they fully intend to wiggle their way down the craptastic path.

  Trudge34

Apprentice Member

Joined: 8/08/12
Posts: 389

10/24/12 5:31:09 PM#24
Originally posted by Neanderthal
Originally posted by rungard

 

 "What we want is a dynamic world that gives all those other possibilities and doesn't just say OK, go to raid X with group composition of X, Y, Z, and kill the dragon for the 52nd time to get the tier 800 gear. It's this rinse-and-repeat gameplay that's got to change, and so we're changing it.
 

what would you say this means? I never said there wouldnt or shouldnt be raids in eq next. I just wouldnt expect them to be EQ EQ2 or WOW raids. I think they will be guild oriented and not individual reward oriented which makes sense in a game that will have alot of building features.

 

He was saying that the most hardcore of raiders burn through new content too quickly and need something more to do between expansions.  They just need something more to mess around with while they wait for the next teir of raids to be released and that is the "other possibilities" he was talking about.  Or at least that's how I read it.

I don't know what this other stuff might be exactly but I doubt if it's going to change the nature of the raiding endgame.  He clearly said that they want the normal sort of raiding endgame but that they need something for the people who burn through content to quickly too keep them busy between expansions for the sake of retention.

So to me this says----same ol' same ol' but with....um, interior decorating or something to fart around with if you've maxed out before the next expansion put's you back on the treadmill.

Yes, I'm extremely cynical, jaded, and "glass half empty" after all these years.  But why shouldn't I be?  We've seen so much bullsh-t, misleading hype over the years I am frankly astonished that not everyone is as cynical and mistrusting as I am.   Basically, if someone in the industy doesn't spell out PRECISELY what they are doing with a game I expect the worst.  If they leave themselves any wiggle room I assume they fully intend to wiggle their way down the craptastic path.

I kind of read that as not having a structured T1-10 or whatever raiding system in place. Not like this dungeon / raid is for T1, once you're done grinding your gear out of this one dungeon / raid you are adequately geared for the next T2 dungeon / raid and so on. Hopefully a bit more like EQ which had multiple areas for different types of gear, some crafting in place for the odds and ends pieces at the VERY least and some quested armor sets from the higher teir raids and dungeons that are comparable to the raid dropped gear. Thinking like the Velious armor sets or even the Ornate armor from PoP that provided solid upgrades for single groups or good sellables to spend on better things.

Played: EQ1 (10 Years), Guild Wars, Rift, TERA
Tried: EQ2, Vanguard, Lord of the Rings Online, Dungeons and Dragons Online, Runes of Magic and countless others...
Currently Playing: GW2

Nytlok Sylas
80 Sylvari Ranger

  ImixZinz

Novice Member

Joined: 6/10/07
Posts: 562

My rank is like a game of pong.

10/24/12 5:31:48 PM#25


Originally posted by rungard

Originally posted by Neanderthal

 
When he says that they aren't going to a skill based system in that quote I take that to mean classes and levels.  If it's not skill based and it's not level based then what else would it be?    Ok, on the raiding thing I'm just going to copy paste the relevant part of the quote from another thread.  -------------------------------------- Smedley said:     " You make your expansion, the real hardcore players consume it in a month, and they're doing the raids over and over and over until the next round of live content that we put in. Typically, three or four times a year, we as MMO companies put new endgame in there to keep the raiders happy. We absolutely need to build that style of content into every game we make because players want that." ---------------------------------------------- He says they need that in every game and he said that when talking about EQ next.  I don't see any other interpretation except that EQ next will have the standard issue endgame where you raid over and over and over to gear up so that you can move on to the next raid and so on.
 "What we want is a dynamic world that gives all those other possibilities and doesn't just say OK, go to raid X with group composition of X, Y, Z, and kill the dragon for the 52nd time to get the tier 800 gear. It's this rinse-and-repeat gameplay that's got to change, and so we're changing it.   what would you say this means? I never said there wouldnt or shouldnt be raids in eq next. I just wouldnt expect them to be EQ EQ2 or WOW raids. I think they will be guild oriented and not individual reward oriented which makes sense in a game that will have alot of building features.
I fell like looking at Planetside 2 in comparison to Planetside 1 is a good starting point for what kind of changes to expect in EQ next.

Leveling was changed from 40 Battle ranks to 100. (expansive) (acts as an Alterneate Advancment system from the start)

Player created (initiated) missions were added. (sandbox)

Resource and territory control become the main focus. (sandbox)

 

What that tells me is their idea of end game might come from player (guild) created (or assisted / initiated) content. This content might have prerequisites to activate which might have something to do with a resource and territory control.

The class system of EQ live has a lot of potential to expand on while maintaining the core mechanics of each class. A planetside Cert (skill points?) type system unique for each class would be an interesting concept so that everyone starts at a point where they have access to "end game" while allowing for specialized and long term (AA) growth.

I dont think "XP" is going to change i think theres going to be a lot of high fantasy -grind- left in the game to go out and experience. But i think the focus will be taken away from the static respawning world and be placed on guild or faction based (PVP) conflict over some kind of control.

(older) People want a modern PvE EQlive (i do as well) but i can't justify the value in it. Raids and PvE are already made to perfection in WoW nobody is looking for another game that offers the same type of experience . They have to offer something unique that you cannot get in WoW.

  Tamanous

Elite Member

Joined: 3/22/09
Posts: 1827

10/24/12 5:36:45 PM#26
Originally posted by Rimmersman
EQNext is not going to be a total sandbox game, it will have a class system and you will gain xp to level up. Smed has already said the classes will be more akin to EQ rather than EQ2. EQNext= Hybrid not a total sandbox game.

Actually I see no connection between a game being a sandbox with classes or a skill system. A sandbox is defined by the level if interaction with the world and not with how you advance your character.

 

The problem with sandbox games is that so few represent most players experience with them that they they think those games are the only way to make a sandbox game. This is the farthest from the truth.

You stay sassy!

  DavisFlight

Apprentice Member

Joined: 9/25/12
Posts: 2594

10/24/12 5:40:21 PM#27
I would take virtually anything over quest based leveling. Even camping and grinding. At least you're free to grind what you want and do it with friends.
  Aelious

Elite Member

Joined: 9/27/11
Posts: 2554

World > Quest Progression

10/24/12 5:46:52 PM#28
Originally posted by rungard

i am really really really hoping for a better system than the previous offerings. I hope that they do not have " levels" or experience in the game.

i would really love a hybrid system like eve online does so you can really pace yourself and not be focused on getting that level. I would also like there to be multiple ways to improve from multiple source. A track for your god, one for your class, one for your race and once for a player chosen organization or three.

like above some skills should be trainable after a certain time ( not time played), others should be findable, some should be required to be crafted and still others you need repeated exposure to the skill to begin learning it.

dont put us on a levelling treadmill. Make the game for a 5 year arc.

 

 

/signed

 

What if the core system was more like EQ's AA system but expanded? Small incremental steps that you care about but aren't obsessed about.

  Tamanous

Elite Member

Joined: 3/22/09
Posts: 1827

10/24/12 5:47:22 PM#29
Originally posted by Venger
Originally posted by Rimmersman
EQNext is not going to be a total sandbox game, it will have a class system and you will gain xp to level up. Smed has already said the classes will be more akin to EQ rather than EQ2. EQNext= Hybrid not a total sandbox game.

Crap really!  I'm no purist but playing what someone else's thinks my character should be pretty much scraps EQ Next as a sandbox IMHO.  How can there be any sand when you don't not had complete control over your avatar in the game.

Because the elements that interact with the world may have nothing to do with what class you play. Crafting and skills of the like may not be bound to class. Full skill systems are typically a mind trick. You decide you want melee then are forced to pick most of your other skills to support melee (armor, defences, etc) and you are templated into a build often more restrictive than a class. Skill systems often also lack secondary or tertiary skill modification mechanics because of how easy it is to exploit outside of more stringent class systems.

 

It is all about how the game is set up. Until that time every one is merely throwing about conjecture. I enjoy both systems depending on the game. I have also played many rpg game systems over 30 years to know the draw back and benefits of either approach. There is no requirement what so ever for a sandbox game to be a pure skill system. The sandbox elements are not restricted by how your character fights or groups in the world. All sandbox options can easily reside outside of the character combat theme.

 

The real question is how much control you have over the class you choose and if it can differ from others of the same when it pertains to combat.

You stay sassy!

  Trudge34

Apprentice Member

Joined: 8/08/12
Posts: 389

10/24/12 5:51:42 PM#30
Originally posted by Aelious
Originally posted by rungard

i am really really really hoping for a better system than the previous offerings. I hope that they do not have " levels" or experience in the game.

i would really love a hybrid system like eve online does so you can really pace yourself and not be focused on getting that level. I would also like there to be multiple ways to improve from multiple source. A track for your god, one for your class, one for your race and once for a player chosen organization or three.

like above some skills should be trainable after a certain time ( not time played), others should be findable, some should be required to be crafted and still others you need repeated exposure to the skill to begin learning it.

dont put us on a levelling treadmill. Make the game for a 5 year arc.

 

 

/signed

 

What if the core system was more like EQ's AA system but expanded? Small incremental steps that you care about but aren't obsessed about.

Think that would be kind of cool. Maybe instead of the exp = levels put all your exp into the AA abilities and depending on the class you want to play you can spend those points as needed. Base stats you can put 100 of each into along with all the other abilities that were in the original AA tree + new ones. Eventually you could max everything out, but you'd have to increase the exp needed and points needed for the most powerful abilties and maxing out as you gain more. Would really give a huge sense of customizability and if you look at how many people have actually maxed out the AA tree, at least when I was playing, it was very very few.

Played: EQ1 (10 Years), Guild Wars, Rift, TERA
Tried: EQ2, Vanguard, Lord of the Rings Online, Dungeons and Dragons Online, Runes of Magic and countless others...
Currently Playing: GW2

Nytlok Sylas
80 Sylvari Ranger

  moguy2

Novice Member

Joined: 9/20/12
Posts: 364

Wish I had something positive to say =(

10/24/12 5:55:06 PM#31

I just linked this on the EQNext forums. Their programmers are looking at it now.

 

 

  krondin

Hard Core Member

Joined: 5/05/09
Posts: 93

10/24/12 6:01:06 PM#32

I read often, in forums of various games, that some folks desire a non leveling game, or no exp. I look at this from a different perspective, no matter whether you kill mobs or quest to get exp or empower your character via events, dungeons, or whatever , its still a type of character leveling or empowering.  Sometimes change is good, but even if you began at game at end lvl and began dungeons/raids to get geared up, you are still, in essence, leveling your characters power up. Just doing it different ways.

 

So i just dont get that people say no exp or questing will be the Next Big Thing. Its still going to be some journey you take your characters on to power/level them up. I try to create fun and have a good time when i play. That is my entertainment in gaming!

 

PS: I usually do have top geared/leveled characters in games i play. But having them isnt the Goal of playing the game. Playing the game to have fun is the goal. Getting LvL'd /Geared is just part of the way i do it. It wouldnt matter to me if i started a game at end lvl with raid gear < i probly wouldnt like that, no sence of accomplishment > as long as i have the opportunity in the game to have fun playing it! Empowering my characters stronger and stronger, no matter how its done!

  rungard

Novice Member

Joined: 7/25/03
Posts: 1037

The Sandbox Foundation does not exist!

 
OP  10/24/12 6:24:51 PM#33

the key point for me is that there is some lore to the whole process. I didnt just grind the most efficient monster i could find until i maxed out. We all know this happens alot. Players will find the most efficient point and work it as long as possible. Its just nature.

i mean if your a follower of cazic thule, should you not  be able to advance and get skills and abilities that are related to cazic thule? That makes sense to me.

If your a troll should you not be able to advance  and get skills and abilities related to being a troll?

if you are aligned with  "Grobb berserkers" should you not be able to adcance and gain skills and abilities related to the that faction.

lets take it a step further...

you have a player guild and the guild can also do the exact same thing and earn skills and abilities that you can set and everyone in the guild gets the same access to the ability. They dont have to be combat related, they could be useful type skills.

the way i see it, anything that can be done in a gameplay context should be. You might actually enjoy being a troll shadowknight that worships cazic thule is you actually were a part of those things.

I honestly dont know how AA's work because i finished eq before they came out (Luclin i believe). perhaps someone can enlighten me.

 

  Aelious

Elite Member

Joined: 9/27/11
Posts: 2554

World > Quest Progression

10/24/12 8:00:08 PM#34
Originally posted by rungard

the key point for me is that there is some lore to the whole process. I didnt just grind the most efficient monster i could find until i maxed out. We all know this happens alot. Players will find the most efficient point and work it as long as possible. Its just nature.

i mean if your a follower of cazic thule, should you not  be able to advance and get skills and abilities that are related to cazic thule? That makes sense to me.

If your a troll should you not be able to advance  and get skills and abilities related to being a troll?

if you are aligned with  "Grobb berserkers" should you not be able to adcance and gain skills and abilities related to the that faction.

lets take it a step further...

you have a player guild and the guild can also do the exact same thing and earn skills and abilities that you can set and everyone in the guild gets the same access to the ability. They dont have to be combat related, they could be useful type skills.

the way i see it, anything that can be done in a gameplay context should be. You might actually enjoy being a troll shadowknight that worships cazic thule is you actually were a part of those things.

I honestly dont know how AA's work because i finished eq before they came out (Luclin i believe). perhaps someone can enlighten me.

 

Agree 100% and it would make for better gameplay as long as there wasn't a base level system to "min/max" to.  Here is a run down of AAs in EQ and EQ2:

EQ

http://everquest.allakhazam.com/wiki/EQ:AA

EQ2

http://eq2.zam.com/wiki/Alternate_Advancements_(EQ2)

 

In EQ it was basically a slow way to still progress even after you hit max level.  In EQ2 is seemed to be more useful early on and gives you additional abilities you wouldn't have otherwise along with effects.  I like the EQ2 version better and it fits more with what you are talking about.  If they were to take the EQ2 version of AA and expanded it more I don't see how a level system would be needed in a sandbox type environment.  This isn't out of the realm of possibility since a lot of cross over design makes sense.  Kill levels, set AA to 100% and break the knob lol.

  Mardukk

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 2/05/11
Posts: 1464

10/24/12 8:07:31 PM#35
Originally posted by Rimmersman
EQNext is not going to be a total sandbox game, it will have a class system and you will gain xp to level up. Smed has already said the classes will be more akin to EQ rather than EQ2. EQNext= Hybrid not a total sandbox game.

This would be fine with me.  Just so long as they make things distinctive and allow for options to gain factions with different groups like EQ1.  Let me be from Qeynos but kill my own guards to ruin faction if I want.  Just some more freedom and some sandbox stuff thrown in to increase play time past a few months.  I can't even imagine playing an MMO for longer than 4 months it's been so long since one was released and meant to be enjoyed for longer than six months.

  Agnostic42

Apprentice Member

Joined: 8/19/04
Posts: 353

10/24/12 8:16:45 PM#36

I know it's a long shot, but I would be most pleased to see a system like Pre-NGE SWG. They designed it once, why can't they do something similar.

I can see it now Master Acrobat Rogue/Master Melee Ranger/Part DoT Shaman

 

This would be truly amazing.

  rungard

Novice Member

Joined: 7/25/03
Posts: 1037

The Sandbox Foundation does not exist!

 
OP  10/24/12 8:52:05 PM#37
Originally posted by Aelious
Originally posted by rungard

the key point for me is that there is some lore to the whole process. I didnt just grind the most efficient monster i could find until i maxed out. We all know this happens alot. Players will find the most efficient point and work it as long as possible. Its just nature.

i mean if your a follower of cazic thule, should you not  be able to advance and get skills and abilities that are related to cazic thule? That makes sense to me.

If your a troll should you not be able to advance  and get skills and abilities related to being a troll?

if you are aligned with  "Grobb berserkers" should you not be able to adcance and gain skills and abilities related to the that faction.

lets take it a step further...

you have a player guild and the guild can also do the exact same thing and earn skills and abilities that you can set and everyone in the guild gets the same access to the ability. They dont have to be combat related, they could be useful type skills.

the way i see it, anything that can be done in a gameplay context should be. You might actually enjoy being a troll shadowknight that worships cazic thule is you actually were a part of those things.

I honestly dont know how AA's work because i finished eq before they came out (Luclin i believe). perhaps someone can enlighten me.

 

Agree 100% and it would make for better gameplay as long as there wasn't a base level system to "min/max" to.  Here is a run down of AAs in EQ and EQ2:

EQ

http://everquest.allakhazam.com/wiki/EQ:AA

EQ2

http://eq2.zam.com/wiki/Alternate_Advancements_(EQ2)

 

In EQ it was basically a slow way to still progress even after you hit max level.  In EQ2 is seemed to be more useful early on and gives you additional abilities you wouldn't have otherwise along with effects.  I like the EQ2 version better and it fits more with what you are talking about.  If they were to take the EQ2 version of AA and expanded it more I don't see how a level system would be needed in a sandbox type environment.  This isn't out of the realm of possibility since a lot of cross over design makes sense.  Kill levels, set AA to 100% and break the knob lol.

 do you think its asking to much to make sure that everything you do in the game is actually part of the game and is intertwined with the lore? I dont think so.

The AA's look ok to me the same way most spec trees do. Its not that its bad it just its just another points system with no context.

i need alot of context these days :)

 

  Venger

Novice Member

Joined: 8/03/04
Posts: 1322

Help Fight Global Warming
Shut Your Mouth :D

10/24/12 9:00:19 PM#38
Originally posted by Tamanous
 

The real question is how much control you have over the class you choose and if it can differ from others of the same when it pertains to combat.

I am betting very little.  I have little faith in developers anymore.  Plus the fact that people are now trying to classify EQ as sandboxy because it didn't have quest or content, makes my head hurt.  I'm discussed but oh well I guess we will see how sandboxy EQ can be.

  umcorian

Apprentice Member

Joined: 4/06/11
Posts: 376

10/24/12 9:12:10 PM#39

Guild Wars 1 had the closest thing I'd ever call to a truly organic class system - the issue was, some combinations of classes were ridiculously powerful and synergized so well. Others became like parasitic twins... one just dragging the other down, locking the player into a choice of either playing a solo class or mixing and matching skills that, likely, result in a worse character than either class solo.

Changing tunes, if I had to pick my ideal progession system, I'd like to return to something like UO or Darkfall. You use a specific skill, you get better at it. How to balance it so there's not like only 3 specific ways to build a character, with all others being inferior... I have no idea. If I had that solution, I'd be making 6 figures, designing Blizzard's next gen MMO. :)  

  Nadia

Tipster

Joined: 7/26/03
Posts: 11795

10/24/12 9:14:11 PM#40

smed gave some plans for SOE Player Studio

may be part of EQNext too

http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2012/10/13/planetside-2-eq-next-and-soes-player-driven-future/

RPS: SOE’s Player Studio seems like an extension of that to me. Let players make their own new content. How far do you hope to expand that, though? Right now it’s just objects in games like EverQuest and eventually PlanetSide. Would you ever like to see players creating their own missions and gametypes, though?

John Smedley: Stay tuned. The answer is yes, wholeheartedly. We have plans for that that go out a long way, and a game that is going to dominate because of that kind of stuff.

It’s not just players making quests. Don’t think of it just as Dungeons & Dragons. What we’re actually building is the ability for players to put in systems. System-level stuff. We give them some rules, some basic simple rules, and they can make things out of whole cloth. They could build their own battlegrounds style of gameplay. That’s what we want. What we have is an amazing infrastructure and ability to let players do new and emerging things.

We want them to… Not make their own fun. We’re going to make our games amazingly fun. We want them to be able to make things we didn’t think of fun. That’s really what it is. I mentioned Hulkageddon, I love that in EVE. That’s just players putting bounties on something. It’s nothing. That’s all it is. But that’s as fun as anything in EVE. More fun if you ask me. It’s amazingly fun.

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