Originally posted by delete5230

Blizzard made WoW easy.

WoW has been easy since day 1. It was always the most casual MMO on the market and still is.

Over time, there's always a vocal minority that want things easier. Things are never quite easy enough. So over many years, things have been dumbed down further and further, with no real end in sight, because there will always be a minority that wants it easier.

Originally posted by DavisFlight

Originally posted by delete5230

Blizzard made WoW easy.

WoW has been easy since day 1. It was always the most casual MMO on the market and still is.

Over time, there's always a vocal minority that want things easier. Things are never quite easy enough. So over many years, things have been dumbed down further and further, with no real end in sight, because there will always be a minority that wants it easier.

 

Are you sure about that ?.....Are you sure that people are really asking for easy, or are the developers just telling us that ?

Remember :

Fast leveling = less content needed.

Fast leveling = Selling expantions faster

PPl are saying GW2 is big.  Would it really be big if leveling was 99% slower. Just something to think bout !

You are right and wrong.

Fast leveling means that you need less leveling content, but you need more end content to keep people occupied. When leveling is slow, developers have more time to develop end content. If everyone hits level cap in 1-2 weeks, you have to either: have a satisfactory amount of end content to keep people occupied until you develop more, or pump out end content quickly.

New games are kind of screwed, because the pace has been set by MMOs that have had way more time to develop end content. If they make leveling slower, they risk losing people to "grind." If they keep the pace set by other MMOs, they need to be ready to race players in pumping out content faster than people can get bored of.

Originally posted by aphydork

New games are kind of screwed...If they keep the pace set by other MMOs, they need to be ready to race players in pumping out content faster than people can get bored of.

Almost.  "Completely screwed" is the most reproducable result of the last eight years.  But here at mmorpg.com, this non-stop bitching is clearly what we do best.  The IPOD's still have the loudest voices--if you listen to 'em, anyway.

Of course, the alternative (this month) is "let's give Smed one more chance at our cash!"  Um..cheer?

Originally posted by nariusseldon

Originally posted by fenistil

Originally posted by nariusseldon

Originally posted by fenistil

Because you expect "finding things" to be a part of gameplay. The real gameplay is killing things. Personally, finding things is boring. I

 

Real gameplay is more varied than killing things.    Killing is just one part of gameplay.  Personally I find games that have only or almost only boring.

For rest of your citations. I was going to cite them all and respond but we did discussions like that for multuiple times and I responded around 50 of your lenght posts or answers to mine posts and that would be just repeating it all over again.

It all basically start from here.   You find my vision of game and gameplay boring and I find your vision boring. 

 

edit: one more thing.  Never said about drawing whole map yourself.  General map with cities and villages being shown as you uncover it is ok.   Even if absolutely neccesary mini-map with my character marked and enemies my character see marked is bearable.    

Anything more is boring.  

well .. it is obvious that killing stuff is popular gameplay. Very many game built on nothing but killing stuff.

And given the popularity of marking objectives (In both MMO & SP games), i would bet that looking for things, while you like, is not a popular gameplay feature.

In fact, i would also argue that other gameplay style .. like stealth, or hacking (in sci-fi of course) .. are more popular gameplay than looking for stuff.

Propably.  I also like stealth, sometimes "hacking" if done interesting. I also like crafting and economy and more other things.   When I want ONLY to kill things I fire up FPS games, hack& slash game or slasher. Though I don't do it too often.

When I look for an mmoprg to play I look for game that offer varied gameplay.

Yes killing is popular but that does not mean that gameplay = only killing.    Same as eating does not mean = only hamburgers.

Originally posted by fenistil

 

Propably.  I also like stealth, sometimes "hacking" if done interesting. I also like crafting and economy and more other things.   When I want ONLY to kill things I fire up FPS games, hack& slash game or slasher. Though I don't do it too often.

When I look for an mmoprg to play I look for game that offer varied gameplay.

Yes killing is popular but that does not mean that gameplay = only killing.    Same as eating does not mean = only hamburgers.

I don't think stealth can be well in a MMO though. It probably can work in an instance with limited number of playres (co-op stealth for some objective .. somethign like one guy sneak around, one doing sniping support ?)

I like how hacking is done in Deus Ex. There is *some* reasonable mini-type gameplay, there is progression, and the hacking result can be tied to combat (like take over a turret/robot), and stealth (turn off alarm/camera).

May be a instanced base game with hacking/stealth/sniping as the new trinity?

I think it is not only killing = popular is driving the "going to the marked location" gameplay. It is also the UNpopularity of finding things. You do see a lot of resources going into collecting stuff (like pets and mounts) because it is also a popular gameplay element.

Originally posted by nariusseldon

Originally posted by fenistil

 

Propably.  I also like stealth, sometimes "hacking" if done interesting. I also like crafting and economy and more other things.   When I want ONLY to kill things I fire up FPS games, hack& slash game or slasher. Though I don't do it too often.

When I look for an mmoprg to play I look for game that offer varied gameplay.

Yes killing is popular but that does not mean that gameplay = only killing.    Same as eating does not mean = only hamburgers.

I don't think stealth can be well in a MMO though. It probably can work in an instance with limited number of playres (co-op stealth for some objective .. somethign like one guy sneak around, one doing sniping support ?)

I like how hacking is done in Deus Ex. There is *some* reasonable mini-type gameplay, there is progression, and the hacking result can be tied to combat (like take over a turret/robot), and stealth (turn off alarm/camera).

May be a instanced base game with hacking/stealth/sniping as the new trinity?

I think it is not only killing = popular is driving the "going to the marked location" gameplay. It is also the UNpopularity of finding things. You do see a lot of resources going into collecting stuff (like pets and mounts) because it is also a popular gameplay element.

 

Oh finding stuff was just an one element.  There are many more non-combat things.  Just see how Farmville or Sims are popular. Also many games, especially but not limited to strategies are either non-combat or have enourmousely big non-combat components.

Besides there are whole myriad of IP's and companies that were created with games that had 'finding or more precisely figuring things out' as game component.

Whole The Elder Scrolls series aside of Skyrim had no hand-holding and was also about looking, exploring and figutring on yourself. They also sold very well and were succesful games.   Same with Fallout, Baludr's Gate, Everquest and many more - almost every non-new game IP that were often a product that brought first big bucks and build certain companies legend was also about figuring things on your own.

Last but not least. I am not talking about solutions that could be used in total middle of mainstream biggest mmorpg's heavy-weights like World of Warcraft, Swtor or Guild Wars2.

I think of games that are on outskirts of mainstream, are 'medium' games. Not low-budget indie half-amateur and non-huge AAA with 50 mln $+ budget.

Originally posted by delete5230

who asked for easy?

Millions upon millions of path-of-least-resistance gamers.

They outnumber 'challenge' guys by, oh, ten to one?

Originally posted by Icewhite

Millions upon millions of path-of-least-resistance gamers.

They outnumber 'challenge' guys by, oh, ten to one?

 

You're probably vastly underestimating, more like 100-1, but the fact is, most of the people who asked for "easy" weren't looking for "fall asleep at the keyboard and win anyhow" as many people seem to think, they just didn't want to spend their time being frustrated at games that just couldn't be won by a person of average skill.  I find it funny that the people who want super hardcore games are the ones with no jobs, no lives, who spend 24 hours a day in the game and anything that doesn't allow them to flap their dick around for all to see is declared to be "too easy".

It's about time they realized that they are in the vast minority and need lives.

Originally posted by Cephus404

I find it funny that the people who want super hardcore games are the ones with no jobs, no lives, who spend 24 hours a day in the game and anything that doesn't allow them to flap their dick around for all to see is declared to be "too easy".

It's about time they realized that they are in the vast minority and need lives.

Mitt !!! I didn't know you were a gamer. Way to go buddy. How 'bout that 47% ?

We should just ask players what the last challenging thing they've done is, without getting answers like, "Haven't had challenge in a long time, because games nowadays are too easy."

Then we can gauge where individual player skill is at.

What was the last challenging thing you've done? Be specific. Game, encounter, mechanic, etc.

Originally posted by Cephus404

Originally posted by Icewhite

Millions upon millions of path-of-least-resistance gamers.

They outnumber 'challenge' guys by, oh, ten to one?

 

You're probably vastly underestimating, more like 100-1, but the fact is, most of the people who asked for "easy" weren't looking for "fall asleep at the keyboard and win anyhow" as many people seem to think, they just didn't want to spend their time being frustrated at games that just couldn't be won by a person of average skill.  I find it funny that the people who want super hardcore games are the ones with no jobs, no lives, who spend 24 hours a day in the game and anything that doesn't allow them to flap their dick around for all to see is declared to be "too easy".

It's about time they realized that they are in the vast minority and need lives.

Do you really believe what are you writing? 

Besides it is YOU who wrote about super hardcore games.   Who want super hardcore?   Majority of posters here seem to want more difficult and not impossibly difficult.  

You're either on purpose or not try to create some kind of dichotomy where there are only 'normal players' and 'super hardcore no-life elitists that want content that will be beatable only by 0,5 % of players'.

Wrong.

I want little bit more challange, especially in open world, but first of all I just don't want everything given to me on a silver platter (quest gps) and game that is revolved around very fast levelling and lobby-like insatnce gridning at so called 'end-game'.

So here's a question: how many of you who cry about games being too easy workout? And by working out, I don't mean pussy treadmill walking, I mean marathons or actual weight lifting (not bicep curls, tricep curls, and other stupid shit, I mean bench press, deadlifts, back squats, overhead squats, cleans, etc.).

I don't think many of you do, otherwise you wouldn't be screaming "MAKE MMOS HARDER CAUSE I GOT NOTHING ELSE HARD IN MAH LIFE". -_____- This is pathetic. Every time I come onto these boards and read some of the topics, I honestly feel ashamed for once being a hardcore nerd, no wonder nerds have such horribad stereotypes.

Originally posted by Lienhart

So here's a question: how many of you who cry about games being too easy workout? And by working out, I don't mean pussy treadmill walking, I mean marathons or actual weight lifting (not bicep curls, tricep curls, and other stupid shit, I mean bench press, deadlifts, back squats, overhead squats, cleans, etc.).

I don't think many of you do, otherwise you wouldn't be screaming "MAKE MMOS HARDER CAUSE I GOT NOTHING ELSE HARD IN MAH LIFE". -_____- This is pathetic. Every time I come onto these boards and read some of the topics, I honestly feel ashamed for once being a hardcore nerd, no wonder nerds have such horribad stereotypes.

Strange you should bring up working out and having anything to do with a video game being hard. I see no connection what's so ever !............Anyway, I'm the OP and I had started this topic about mmos being too easy.

So lets talk about working out OK ?......I have been active in doing Kung Fu for the past 20 years !!!!, I still work out close to every single day for two hours, on week ends three and four until I can't walk. Ive had my nose busted several times, and in the first few years had constant black eyes, and fat lips. I work out with sabers, swards sticks ,knifes, spears, and open hand. I am not only a black belt but I know the entire Hungar style, and a lot of Northern Long Fist, monkey and Mantas.

Why am I typing all this. Because I work out five times harder than you and I don't care who you are !!!!....I have thousands of post here and could not even think about bringing up the topic of working out here on mmorpg.com

And I still think Easy has nothing to do with mmos. Please reply what playing video games have to do with working out, and give details !!!!

Originally posted by delete5230

Strange you should bring up working out and having anything to do with a video game being hard. I see no connection what's so ever !............Anyway, I'm the OP and I had started this topic about mmos being too easy.

Amen.

I did my best to laugh off his comments with my "Mitt" response, whereas I actually found it more than a little stinging.

I've played online games since my early teens, but I never really got serious about them until I had my accident. I don't work, though I certainly wish I could. I don't workout, though I wish I could, and that's a particularly bitter part of my existence. My  bachelor's degree was funded principally by a track and cross country scholorship, and I countinued to run 10Ks and Marathons competitively during grad school. Nothing in this mortal life gave me greater pleasure than early morning training runs. RPGs are a by proxy way of doing things that I can no longer do in real life, but "challenge" isn't one of the things at the top of my list when I start a new MMORPG, but I will revisit that later. What I do look for are:

• Immersive game world
• Compelling storyline and lore
• Meaningful quests or missions
• Substantive, vital in-game economy
• Honorable player community

Generally I want a game where I feel some level of challenge, have to figure some things out, but I do not want have to pull my hair out and have pulse pounding drama at every turn.    I want to relax and be able to work at things.     I don't want to feel that a Sword of Damocles is suspended over my head and the next step I take will be my doom.   And that people will curse my name because I screwed up.

A huge number of people demanded changes in EQ1, some were not challenges exactly but more like useless frustrations, but there was enough momentum to tone the game down a bit.    And that is exactly what happened with WoW, and it worked.   WoW went large because people wanted it and asked for it.   It seems to me that the goal ought to be to offer people the freedom to adapt their approach and playstyle to the game, but still have it somewhat balanced while giving people doing really hard stuff some kind of meanful reward.  And most of all some reason to build communities.    It's not easy.   WoW is the closest so far, imo.

Right now I have decided to go back and play Baldur's Gate 1 again.    8$ from Amazon LOL.  Been a long time and I have forgotten a lot of it.    BG has some challenges in it (especially if you don't use a walk through), but one can play along at it quite a bit without feeling that you are at the edge of doom.  Still,  It is often a relief to get back to a safe area...that is, mostly safe, since assasins can hit you anywhere.    But BG  has the big advantage over MMOs  that you can save, then experiment.     You can take your time.   

Originally posted by fenistil

 

Oh finding stuff was just an one element.  There are many more non-combat things.  Just see how Farmville or Sims are popular. Also many games, especially but not limited to strategies are either non-combat or have enourmousely big non-combat components.

Besides there are whole myriad of IP's and companies that were created with games that had 'finding or more precisely figuring things out' as game component.

Whole The Elder Scrolls series aside of Skyrim had no hand-holding and was also about looking, exploring and figutring on yourself. They also sold very well and were succesful games.   Same with Fallout, Baludr's Gate, Everquest and many more - almost every non-new game IP that were often a product that brought first big bucks and build certain companies legend was also about figuring things on your own.

 

Last but not least. I am not talking about solutions that could be used in total middle of mainstream biggest mmorpg's heavy-weights like World of Warcraft, Swtor or Guild Wars2.

I think of games that are on outskirts of mainstream, are 'medium' games. Not low-budget indie half-amateur and non-huge AAA with 50 mln $+ budget.

Skyrim has no hand holding? Last time i played, it marked your quest, not unlike WOW.

Same as Fallout 3, and most modern games.

Originally posted by aphydork

We should just ask players what the last challenging thing they've done is, without getting answers like, "Haven't had challenge in a long time, because games nowadays are too easy."

Then we can gauge where individual player skill is at.

What was the last challenging thing you've done? Be specific. Game, encounter, mechanic, etc.

Diablo 3 MP10 .. got one shotted by normal mobs in Act 3. That was like a few days ago.

I also did a less challenging thing .. do the inferno machine with 3 others on MP5. Hard enough that we wiped. One guy (Barb tank) kite and kept one boss occupied.

3 of us are on the second boss. We have to dodge fireballs, time slow zones, i try to put up my hydra, and try to position well. We died MANY times, and each time we try to revive our teammates.

It was a good fight. Oh, and the ring component dropped for me.

THAT is challenging enough to have fun.