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The Pub at MMORPG.COM  » Smed and the writing on the wall ;)

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76 posts found
  Burntvet

Hard Core Member

Joined: 11/16/07
Posts: 2757

10/23/12 5:12:14 PM#41
Originally posted by Aelious
Burntvet

I

You brought up F2P coming into all of EQ2. That's a valid point from a players standpoint but what were they to do? The populations of every server was lower than Freeport and only two even came close in populations. Merge servers? Open another EQ2X server?

There comes a point where you have to make responsible business decisions and that's what happened. What was the outcome? More people on servers other than Freeport. People complain all the time that the SoE model is too restrictive yet why is that? It wouldn't be to give subs a rightful experience would it? To prefer subs while still getting more players in the door.

What did players of the original servers lose by having F2P?

That's nice and all, but the big thing is: Smed and SOE did it explictly after they said they would not, and on every single server, not even exempting one, for the people that didn't want to be a part of that.

At a certain point, a company/person's word has to mean something. What would it have cost SOE to not do the stupid deal with EQ2 on one server? Not much.

But it would have given people a choice, and those people that didn't want it, would have been happy.

Instead, for the Nth time, SOE said in effect: "Customers be damned."

Why is it that every single thing like this is always at the expense of customers or the customer experience?

Different is one thing and not necessarily bad, but always making things worse/more restrictive/more expensive is quite another.

 

And that is what SOE has a long and documented history of: making things worse for a game, and for the players.

 

  Vunak23

Novice Member

Joined: 11/27/10
Posts: 659

In your house Eatin' your Cookies!

10/23/12 5:15:41 PM#42
If you get hyped over anything $medley says your just setting yourself up for disappointment. 

"In the immediate future, we have this one, and then we’ve got another one that is actually going to be – so we’re going to have, what we want to do, is in January, what we’re targeting to do, this may or may not happen, so you can’t hold me to it. But what we’re targeting to do, is have a fun anniversary to the Ilum shenanigans that happened. An alien race might invade, and they might crash into Ilum and there might be some new activities that happen on the planet." ~Gabe Amatangelo

  Aelious

Elite Member

Joined: 9/27/11
Posts: 2457

World > Quest Progression

10/23/12 5:27:25 PM#43
Originally posted by Burntvet
Originally posted by Aelious
Burntvet

I

You brought up F2P coming into all of EQ2. That's a valid point from a players standpoint but what were they to do? The populations of every server was lower than Freeport and only two even came close in populations. Merge servers? Open another EQ2X server?

There comes a point where you have to make responsible business decisions and that's what happened. What was the outcome? More people on servers other than Freeport. People complain all the time that the SoE model is too restrictive yet why is that? It wouldn't be to give subs a rightful experience would it? To prefer subs while still getting more players in the door.

What did players of the original servers lose by having F2P?

That's nice and all, but the big thing is: Smed and SOE did it explictly after they said they would not, and on every single server, not even exempting one, for the people that didn't want to be a part of that.

At a certain point, a company/person's word has to mean something. What would it have cost SOE to not do the stupid deal with EQ2 on one server? Not much.

But it would have given people a choice, and those people that didn't want it, would have been happy.

Instead, for the Nth time, SOE said in effect: "Customers be damned."

Why is it that every single thing like this is always at the expense of customers or the customer experience?

Different is one thing and not necessarily bad, but always making things worse/more restrictive/more expensive is quite another.

 

And that is what SOE has a long and documented history of: making things worse for a game, and for the players.

 

You never answered the question though:

 

What did subscibers of those original servers lose by getting F2P?

 

It actually would cost more to have one server or a few as a different ruleset of the F2P ones.  You can say "but he lied" as much as you want, though I'm tempted to look for the ecxact quote, but I really think the F2P EQ2 issue is a small one considering there is literally no difference for subscibers between now and back then.

 

Edit: I looked and I can't find a quote from him that says EQ2 will never be free to play.  What I do know is that before the transition to F2P they took a lot of the disliked "P2W" items from the SC store.  Yeah, customer be damned right? If you want to claim Smed lied, which is your right to do, it would make sense to link those quotes.  Other than that it just looks like SoERage.

  Burntvet

Hard Core Member

Joined: 11/16/07
Posts: 2757

10/23/12 5:38:44 PM#44
Originally posted by Aelious
Originally posted by Burntvet
Originally posted by Aelious
Burntvet

/snip

That's nice and all, but the big thing is: Smed and SOE did it explictly after they said they would not, and on every single server, not even exempting one, for the people that didn't want to be a part of that.

At a certain point, a company/person's word has to mean something. What would it have cost SOE to not do the stupid deal with EQ2 on one server? Not much.

But it would have given people a choice, and those people that didn't want it, would have been happy.

Instead, for the Nth time, SOE said in effect: "Customers be damned."

Why is it that every single thing like this is always at the expense of customers or the customer experience?

Different is one thing and not necessarily bad, but always making things worse/more restrictive/more expensive is quite another.

 

And that is what SOE has a long and documented history of: making things worse for a game, and for the players.

 

You never answered the question though:

 

What did subscibers of those original servers lose by getting F2P?

 

It actually would cost more to have one server or a few as a different ruleset of the F2P ones.  You can say "but he lied" as much as you want, though I'm tempted to look for the ecxact quote, but I really think the F2P EQ2 issue is a small one considering there is literally no difference for subscibers between now and back then.

Worse community? Changes to the gameplay? Having to deal with restricted class/item/level players in regards to guilds or raids?

It doesn't really matter: a good number of people didn't want to deal with that, and the Smedbucks nonsense and Smed went back on what he said and did it anyway.

And there were a good number of people that quit over that, or the F2P conversion in general.

Again, just one of many instances where SOE heard the customer complaints beforehand, and then gave them the big "FU" anyway. After saying they wouldn't.

SOE is what it is, do business with them and you'll learn that, sooner or later.

 

 

  Aelious

Elite Member

Joined: 9/27/11
Posts: 2457

World > Quest Progression

10/23/12 6:02:59 PM#45
Originally posted by Burntvet
Originally posted by Aelious
Originally posted by Burntvet
Originally posted by Aelious
Burntvet

/snip

That's nice and all, but the big thing is: Smed and SOE did it explictly after they said they would not, and on every single server, not even exempting one, for the people that didn't want to be a part of that.

At a certain point, a company/person's word has to mean something. What would it have cost SOE to not do the stupid deal with EQ2 on one server? Not much.

But it would have given people a choice, and those people that didn't want it, would have been happy.

Instead, for the Nth time, SOE said in effect: "Customers be damned."

Why is it that every single thing like this is always at the expense of customers or the customer experience?

Different is one thing and not necessarily bad, but always making things worse/more restrictive/more expensive is quite another.

 

And that is what SOE has a long and documented history of: making things worse for a game, and for the players.

 

You never answered the question though:

 

What did subscibers of those original servers lose by getting F2P?

 

It actually would cost more to have one server or a few as a different ruleset of the F2P ones.  You can say "but he lied" as much as you want, though I'm tempted to look for the ecxact quote, but I really think the F2P EQ2 issue is a small one considering there is literally no difference for subscibers between now and back then.

Worse community?

Not in my experience

Changes to the gameplay?

Which ones that were caused by F2P?

Having to deal with restricted class/item/level players in regards to guilds or raids?

Who would not have been there otherwise, right? At least they were able to try?

It doesn't really matter: a good number of people didn't want to deal with that, and the Smedbucks nonsense and Smed went back on what he said and did it anyway.

Still waiting for the quote that says it will never happen

And there were a good number of people that quit over that, or the F2P conversion in general.

That's their choice but because of the non-issue nature of the F2P switch, other that emotional, it would seem silly to me.

Again, just one of many instances where SOE heard the customer complaints beforehand, and then gave them the big "FU" anyway. After saying they wouldn't.

I thought most of the Norrath vets were older people with their own reponsibilities and would understand when decision like this had to be made.

SOE is what it is, do business with them and you'll learn that, sooner or later.

I've done business with them on and off since '03 and I have never felt burned.  Well I didn't play SWG though so maybe that's why.

 

If you really think that SoE or Smed himself doesn't care about the customers then you are right to not want anything to do with them.  I don't think that because it just wouldn't make any sense especially since their new model across all games is based on keeping customers happy all the time.  Eh, to each their own I guess.

  Daneril

Apprentice Member

Joined: 4/22/07
Posts: 39

10/23/12 6:08:47 PM#46
I hope he's right and the game lasts for 15 years. But you never know with Smed. SOE seem to be making less shitty choices nowadays than a few years ago though.

  Letsinod

Novice Member

Joined: 3/05/06
Posts: 326

10/23/12 6:13:34 PM#47
Originally posted by Burntvet
Originally posted by Aelious
Originally posted by Burntvet
Originally posted by Aelious
Burntvet

/snip

That's nice and all, but the big thing is: Smed and SOE did it explictly after they said they would not, and on every single server, not even exempting one, for the people that didn't want to be a part of that.

At a certain point, a company/person's word has to mean something. What would it have cost SOE to not do the stupid deal with EQ2 on one server? Not much.

But it would have given people a choice, and those people that didn't want it, would have been happy.

Instead, for the Nth time, SOE said in effect: "Customers be damned."

Why is it that every single thing like this is always at the expense of customers or the customer experience?

Different is one thing and not necessarily bad, but always making things worse/more restrictive/more expensive is quite another.

 

And that is what SOE has a long and documented history of: making things worse for a game, and for the players.

 

You never answered the question though:

 

What did subscibers of those original servers lose by getting F2P?

 

It actually would cost more to have one server or a few as a different ruleset of the F2P ones.  You can say "but he lied" as much as you want, though I'm tempted to look for the ecxact quote, but I really think the F2P EQ2 issue is a small one considering there is literally no difference for subscibers between now and back then.

Worse community? Changes to the gameplay? Having to deal with restricted class/item/level players in regards to guilds or raids?

It doesn't really matter: a good number of people didn't want to deal with that, and the Smedbucks nonsense and Smed went back on what he said and did it anyway.

And there were a good number of people that quit over that, or the F2P conversion in general.

Again, just one of many instances where SOE heard the customer complaints beforehand, and then gave them the big "FU" anyway. After saying they wouldn't.

SOE is what it is, do business with them and you'll learn that, sooner or later.

 

 

So basically like every other game publisher out there?  Blizzard removed the talent tree from their games against everyone's will and people keep playing.  I doubt that many people left and whoever did was replaced by the influx.  Thats business man, you make decisions that will impact things like that. 

 

Its funny how this forum for years has been clamoring for a sandbox type game and the guys announces that he is going to make one (with arguably the best IP in the industry) and all people have been doing it bitching.  I for one won't get too hyped up but I am definately a little excited for something different.  I only can applaud them for trying.

 

 

  Yamota

Hard Core Member

Joined: 10/05/03
Posts: 6510

"I fight so you don't have to."

10/23/12 6:19:41 PM#48
Once I see a triple A sandbox MMORPG released I will breathe a sigh of relief but for now, the MMORPG genre has hit a brick wall and is keep hitting its head against it. TERA, GW 2, Secret World, Rift etc are all good games but they are lousy MMORPGs.

  ozmono

Advanced Member

Joined: 3/12/06
Posts: 1045

10/23/12 6:26:52 PM#49
I'll reserve my judgement until the final product too but I also agree that it is encouraging.
  GrayGhost79

Novice Member

Joined: 8/30/08
Posts: 4888

10/23/12 6:33:44 PM#50
Originally posted by Aelious
Originally posted by Burntvet
Originally posted by Aelious
Originally posted by Burntvet
Originally posted by Aelious
Burntvet

/snip

That's nice and all, but the big thing is: Smed and SOE did it explictly after they said they would not, and on every single server, not even exempting one, for the people that didn't want to be a part of that.

At a certain point, a company/person's word has to mean something. What would it have cost SOE to not do the stupid deal with EQ2 on one server? Not much.

But it would have given people a choice, and those people that didn't want it, would have been happy.

Instead, for the Nth time, SOE said in effect: "Customers be damned."

Why is it that every single thing like this is always at the expense of customers or the customer experience?

Different is one thing and not necessarily bad, but always making things worse/more restrictive/more expensive is quite another.

 

And that is what SOE has a long and documented history of: making things worse for a game, and for the players.

 

You never answered the question though:

 

What did subscibers of those original servers lose by getting F2P?

 

It actually would cost more to have one server or a few as a different ruleset of the F2P ones.  You can say "but he lied" as much as you want, though I'm tempted to look for the ecxact quote, but I really think the F2P EQ2 issue is a small one considering there is literally no difference for subscibers between now and back then.

Worse community?

Not in my experience

Changes to the gameplay?

Which ones that were caused by F2P?

Having to deal with restricted class/item/level players in regards to guilds or raids?

Who would not have been there otherwise, right? At least they were able to try?

It doesn't really matter: a good number of people didn't want to deal with that, and the Smedbucks nonsense and Smed went back on what he said and did it anyway.

Still waiting for the quote that says it will never happen

And there were a good number of people that quit over that, or the F2P conversion in general.

That's their choice but because of the non-issue nature of the F2P switch, other that emotional, it would seem silly to me.

Again, just one of many instances where SOE heard the customer complaints beforehand, and then gave them the big "FU" anyway. After saying they wouldn't.

I thought most of the Norrath vets were older people with their own reponsibilities and would understand when decision like this had to be made.

SOE is what it is, do business with them and you'll learn that, sooner or later.

I've done business with them on and off since '03 and I have never felt burned.  Well I didn't play SWG though so maybe that's why.

 

If you really think that SoE or Smed himself doesn't care about the customers then you are right to not want anything to do with them.  I don't think that because it just wouldn't make any sense especially since their new model across all games is based on keeping customers happy all the time.  Eh, to each their own I guess.

Does it even matter? You are simply trying to side step the fact that he lied and has done so on multiple occasions. He plainly stated one thing and then did the exact opposite. There was no misunderstanding, there was no bad interpretation, he flat out lied. 

  Burntvet

Hard Core Member

Joined: 11/16/07
Posts: 2757

10/23/12 6:38:42 PM#51
Originally posted by Aelious
Originally posted by Burntvet
Originally posted by Aelious
Originally posted by Burntvet
Originally posted by Aelious
Burntvet

/snip

That's nice and all, but the big thing is: Smed and SOE did it explictly after they said they would not, and on every single server, not even exempting one, for the people that didn't want to be a part of that.

At a certain point, a company/person's word has to mean something. What would it have cost SOE to not do the stupid deal with EQ2 on one server? Not much.

But it would have given people a choice, and those people that didn't want it, would have been happy.

Instead, for the Nth time, SOE said in effect: "Customers be damned."

Why is it that every single thing like this is always at the expense of customers or the customer experience?

Different is one thing and not necessarily bad, but always making things worse/more restrictive/more expensive is quite another.

 

And that is what SOE has a long and documented history of: making things worse for a game, and for the players.

 

You never answered the question though:

 

What did subscibers of those original servers lose by getting F2P?

 

It actually would cost more to have one server or a few as a different ruleset of the F2P ones.  You can say "but he lied" as much as you want, though I'm tempted to look for the ecxact quote, but I really think the F2P EQ2 issue is a small one considering there is literally no difference for subscibers between now and back then.

Worse community?

Not in my experience

Changes to the gameplay?

Which ones that were caused by F2P?

Having to deal with restricted class/item/level players in regards to guilds or raids?

Who would not have been there otherwise, right? At least they were able to try?

It doesn't really matter: a good number of people didn't want to deal with that, and the Smedbucks nonsense and Smed went back on what he said and did it anyway.

Still waiting for the quote that says it will never happen

And there were a good number of people that quit over that, or the F2P conversion in general.

That's their choice but because of the non-issue nature of the F2P switch, other that emotional, it would seem silly to me.

Again, just one of many instances where SOE heard the customer complaints beforehand, and then gave them the big "FU" anyway. After saying they wouldn't.

I thought most of the Norrath vets were older people with their own reponsibilities and would understand when decision like this had to be made.

SOE is what it is, do business with them and you'll learn that, sooner or later.

I've done business with them on and off since '03 and I have never felt burned.  Well I didn't play SWG though so maybe that's why.

 

If you really think that SoE or Smed himself doesn't care about the customers then you are right to not want anything to do with them.  I don't think that because it just wouldn't make any sense especially since their new model across all games is based on keeping customers happy all the time.  Eh, to each their own I guess.

This took me about 10 seconds to find on google.

There were later quotes from SOE talking about how they were only going to go on half the servers, find those yourself if you are interested enough:

 

http://www.zam.com/story.html?story=16850

Feb 6th, 2009 at 9:01 PM

Readers may recall our interview with John Smedley, where we talked about SOE's controversial decision to implement Station Cash into EQ and EQ2. During that interview, Smedley justified SOE's choice, but he only briefly touched on their goals with microtransaction payments.

Recently, Virtual Goods News had the opportunity to clarify SOE’s aspirations in another interview with John Smedley. Smedley notes that SOE has “been intrigued watching the Asian free-to-play model,” however, he also clearly states that they won’t be making EQ and EQ2 free to play as a result of introducing station cash.

 

And even better:

(From another Smed interview write-up)

http://www.completeheal.com/?cat=5

EQ2 Extended

As you all know, EQ2 is coming out with a F2P service called EQ2 Extended. It’s currently in Alpha and beta begins on August 17th. The Senior Producer of EQ2, Dave Georgeson, talked about the philosophy behind this “experiment” and spent a lot of time listening to players and getting their feedback. It’s clear that he is trying to breathe new life into EQ2 and I think that’s a good thing.

EQ2 Extended is basically an attempt to get more users into the EQ2 universe and really to raise brand awareness for Everquest in general. It’s not designed to replace EQ2 Live. According to Dave, EQ2 is their most important product in their stable of games. EQ2 Extended is going to run on separate servers and will release with only one PVE server. They would like to add a PVP server under the service but it won’t come out right out of the gate. Characters transfers off EQ2 Extended won’t be allowed because of “duplication exploits” and “EQ2 Live players don’t want to play with characters who bought their way to power.” Seemed reasonable to me.

 

All of that is now of course, irrelevant, because SOE went whole hog on F2P.

 

 

  Aelious

Elite Member

Joined: 9/27/11
Posts: 2457

World > Quest Progression

10/23/12 6:58:01 PM#52
And you think this is Smed lying? "the Asian model" is to have full free to play and be able to buy items of power in a cash shop. EQ2 is not a fully free to play game is it? In order to get everything you have to have a subscription. So he didn't lie. Ask the other SoE detractors and they will yell and scream how SoE's model is not really free to play.

As for the second quote SoE took out the items that one would "but their way to power" so where is the beef?

I thank you for finding the quotes though, the "Smed lied" argument makes more sense now.
  Burntvet

Hard Core Member

Joined: 11/16/07
Posts: 2757

10/23/12 7:01:58 PM#53
Originally posted by Aelious
And you think this is Smed lying? "the Asian model" is to have full free to play and be able to buy items of power in a cash shop. EQ2 is not a fully free to play game is it? In order to get everything you have to have a subscription. So he didn't lie. Ask the other SoE detractors and they will yell and scream how SoE's model is not really free to play.

As for the second quote SoE took out the items that one would "but their way to power" so where is the beef?

I thank you for finding the quotes though, the "Smed lied" argument makes more sense now.

The whole point is, they said one thing, and then turned around and did exactly what they said they wouldn't.

At least some of their customers did not want to play on EQ2 free servers, SOE said "That's fine, you won't have to, no worries" and turned around and did it anyway.

You can argue what the effects were or weren't, but you can't argue that they didn't say one thing and do another. They did that.

 

And again, I don't care much about EQ2, I am not a player.

I care that SOE has a crap track record in treating their customers as a company.

 

  Aelious

Elite Member

Joined: 9/27/11
Posts: 2457

World > Quest Progression

10/23/12 7:26:21 PM#54
Not to the effect that was the initial reason for the resistance. You bolded it yourself.

Players did not want to play with those that bought their way in and they didn't have to, right?

SoE didn't go with an "Asian style" F2P, right?

That's my point. Yes, they brought a "free to play" model in but the fears that players had SoE took away. I guess that wasn't enough for some people. Oh well.
  rungard

Novice Member

Joined: 7/25/03
Posts: 1037

The Sandbox Foundation does not exist!

10/23/12 9:27:56 PM#55

while the writing may be on the wall, it appears that well be able to destroy that wall with fireballs, and then rebuild the wall.

 

  pvpirl

Novice Member

Joined: 11/08/11
Posts: 171

10/23/12 10:18:42 PM#56


Originally posted by rungard
while the writing may be on the wall, it appears that well be able to destroy that wall with fireballs, and then rebuild the wall.

 


this.

  Uhwop

Advanced Member

Joined: 3/20/10
Posts: 1657

10/23/12 10:28:53 PM#57

I agree. 

Sandbox MMO's are were things are going to start going.  Themepark MMO's haven't done any better then the original MMO's that were basically sandboxes, and  hardcore themepark.  WoW has been the only exception. 

It's not like Rift has more people playing than SWG did before the NGE, or UO at it's prime. 

And no large studios outside of asia are attempting sandbox MMO's. 

As long as there's a way to play just PvE, a sandbox MMO wouldn't do any worse than Rift.  I'd bet EVE has more subs than Rift. 

 

  Quizzical

Guide

Joined: 12/11/08
Posts: 13470

10/23/12 10:32:52 PM#58
While a lot of people in these parts hate SOE, they do at least innovate some rather than trying to create completely generic WoW-clones.  Thus, they make games that at least had a chance of being good, rather than being destined for medicrity from the day they were greenlighted, as some other companies do.  Of course, even if they were to make a really good game, they'd probably nickle-and-dime their players to death and kill the game that way.
  MMOExposed

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 6/17/10
Posts: 6067

10/24/12 12:18:37 AM#59
Originally posted by Elikal

I read this comment from Smed about the changes of EQ Next to a sandbox:

"Once we made that shift, everything else had to follow. And what we saw was RIFT. We saw the writing on the wall with SWTOR. We saw The Secret World. We saw all these games that we knew were in development and very high-quality, but we saw what was going to happen -- this big spike and then it goes down. That's the truth of what's been happening with MMOs. The fans need to realize that if you don't change the nature of what these games are, you're not going to change that core behavior. We want to make games that last more than 15 years. That's why we made the decision to change it."

http://massively.joystiq.com/2012/10/20/soe-live-2012-john-smedley-on-eq-next-and-soes-future/

And then I felt like:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=79M0P74d6ZA&feature=related

 

:D

Like I pointed out in the other big thread. OP and others hyped about all this, really need to question his definition of a sandbox.

because it doesn't really have a set in stone definition. Notice the same guy called Everqyest a sandbox. That should be a huge red flag. 

Because if he consider EQ a sandbox, than his definition of a sandbox may not be the same as many people expect from a Minecraft or Eve.

Maybe you all should be asking him to define a sandbox MMO. That would be better.

  MMOExposed

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 6/17/10
Posts: 6067

10/24/12 12:20:31 AM#60
Originally posted by Quizzical
 rather than trying to create completely generic WoW-clones..

The irony in this statement, when SoE created the WoW model.

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