remember when SOE thought they were hot enough to compete toe to toe with WoW, and released EQ2 at the same time as WoW? 

then they spent the next few months getting obliterated, SOE desperately scrambling to copy WoW features into EQ2 for the next few months

SOE is only able to live these days because their fanbase loves being nickel and dimed. EQ2 had a cash shop when it was still a sub game, an RMAH, and about 37 mini expansions for instanced dungeons and 68 fully priced expansions. now it's a pay2win cash shop game, where you need to pay real money to pick up any decent equip drops from monsters lmao

Originally posted by Yuui 

You....have not even touched that game, have you?

TSW is neither themepark nor sandbox, but does have slight elements of both. 

I've played it extensively for several months of closed beta (the only you could play 24/24 7/7, not the week end stuff), and TSW is definitely not even remotely close to being a sandbox. Having a pseudo skill based character development instead of classes doesn't make a sandbox.

TSW is a pure quest based theme park MMORPG, exactly like World of Warcraft.

I doubt it will be a true sandbox SOE can't make them.

A true sandbox MMO is like Eve Online or the old UO before EA destroyed it. A sandbox must have open world pvp and full loot rights. A player driven market with player made items. No raids or gear drops and if they are they must be the equivelant of the crafted items.

Originally posted by Olgark

I doubt it will be a true sandbox SOE can't make them.

A true sandbox MMO is like Eve Online or the old UO before EA destroyed it. A sandbox must have open world pvp and full loot rights. A player driven market with player made items. No raids or gear drops and if they are they must be the equivelant of the crafted items.

You treat a model for an mmo like extremes. A sandbox is not defined by it's individual systems. Having full loot all the time does not define a sandbox. A sandbox is merely a game where the players manage and control the economy and progression of game through more advanced interactions of world wide mechanics.

There could simply be specific regions or defined encounters that offer full loot. There could be built in limitations through lore (ie. magic, politics). You can in fact have raids as well but they are open to all players. It is a matter of how you define the raid. Gear drops can easily occur (I prefer logical gear drops but random stats is fine with me) but I agree that craft driven economies is indeed a staple of a sandbox.

It is a matter if an mmo decides to be a hardcore sandbox model where no limitations are given or a more restricted model sticking to the fundamentals of player driven economy, greater impact on politics and accessable world design. We will see more hybrid models in the future but that does not make them any less of a sandbox. They are merely different places on the sandbox spectrum.

Personally I hope EQNext is more on the open model design but with the basic restraints integrated into it's learning curve. Even Eve has safe zones where a large percentage of their casual playerbase rarely leaves (something hardly anyone mentions). Even Eve is a long way away from the pure and harsh sandbox models. It also was designed well where expectations are set clearly for players to organize if venturing into unprotected areas. The same may be true for EQNext but it is their challenge to prepare players and set expectations.

hmm...my kids sandbox was always getting a lot of bugs in it :)

There's not enough information in this announcement to even discuss. The only thing people can talk about is SOE, Smedley or the definition of 'sandbox'. Good for them for heading in that direction but there's zip to talk about until next year.

Which seems about right, I suppose. That's kind of how all MMORPG announcements go. People ignore any actual information while latching on to the nebulous statements and then make up their own definitions for whatever the person talking said.

Originally posted by The_Korrigan

Originally posted by Yuui 

You....have not even touched that game, have you?

TSW is neither themepark nor sandbox, but does have slight elements of both. 

I've played it extensively for several months of closed beta (the only you could play 24/24 7/7, not the week end stuff), and TSW is definitely not even remotely close to being a sandbox. Having a pseudo skill based character development instead of classes doesn't make a sandbox.

TSW is a pure quest based theme park MMORPG, exactly like World of Warcraft.

TSW is a good game but like GW2 it's as far away from sandbox as can be. Both are themepark on rails, one more so than the other..ie GW2.

Originally posted by Loregothe
The one truly good thing about GW2 is the pay model. Otherwise it is distinctly non-distinct. Tera has more going for it.

That's debatable.

Liked a lot EQ and EQ2, I'm pretty positive will buy this new version. As for "innovations", "themeparks", ... or other bs I could not care less. ONLY thing I'm interested in any game is FUN factor. And i do not care if old idea have been only rechowed if fun.

Gaming world would be much better with people obsessed pathologicaly with "innovations" and other total bs.

Originally posted by health001
wow thats just sad they spent 3 years working on it and then trashed it O_O sounds fishy to me but then again we are working with John Smedley here this guys motives are profit driven but then again thats every ceo

Sounds like a brilliant move to me.  They started dev three years ago which means it was likely a standard themepark model like all the other games on the market today.  SOE is seeing that this standard themepark design has become repetetive and boring for players, not to mention that people are burning through all the content in a month or two.  They have decided to look at emergent gameplay and sandbox features instead.

Sandbox games (or at least solid hybrids) are the only model that is going to result in players potentially playing for years again.  SOE recoginizes that playing the content chase game9 as a developer, or expecting players to be excited with repetetive dungeon grinds only applies to a small number of people.  The rest just simply move on and spend money elsewhere.  From a business standpoint, it is not sustainable long term.

Themeparks are going to have a hard time from here on out.  Even Guild Wars 2 with all the changes they made, it's still just a themepark and soon feels familiar.  The result of this style of game is that no one wants to pay a subscription fee, and no one sticks around long enough to sustain the games long enough through cash shop purchases.

I personally have no problem buying things I want from cash shops, but in themepark games I know I'm not likely to stick around for more than a couple months, so why bother?

At any rate, SOE is taking a gamble no matter which direction they go at this point.  Since they have a history of sandbox or hybrid style games from their past, they have a better idea of what works and what doesn't.  For example, almost anyone you talk to about Star Wars Galaxies loves the gathering and crafting system for it's depth and fun.  They could take that system and improve upon it to make another killer sandbox system.

Originally posted by health001
wow thats just sad they spent 3 years working on it and then trashed it O_O sounds fishy to me but then again we are working with John Smedley here this guys motives are profit driven but then again thats every ceo

Most likely the important stuff (Game Assets: Textures, Character Models, Item Models, etc) were not scrapped.

I suspect Dust 514 had a heavy roll in the change [to sandbox].

Sounds great! However, a sandbox catering to F2P players and other lightweight, super-casual types is going to be very, very difficult to pull off.

;)

Originally posted by Smokeysong

Sounds great! However, a sandbox catering to F2P players and other lightweight, super-casual types is going to be very, very difficult to pull off.

;)

It seems like it would easy if though about in a certain way. The difficulty of the game is already stated to be hearkening back to the original EQ. This will mean that once you step outside the safer start regions the game will likely require a great deal of grouping. Even casuals will require a guild to progress. They will essentially be soft capped to easier content.

This is actually a more effective barrier for keeping casuals out of more important server wide sandbox elements. Only those dedicated to the game will be effective enough to reach whatever resource difficult areas offer (dungeons, loot, materials, mobs, etc). Current themepark games have so many safety nets and stepping stones that most casuals can reach pretty much everything other than the top end game or can even reach that faster than previous years (ie. Wow).

In a sandbox game there can not be so many crutches put in place by the very nature of the game. 

Originally posted by Dyner

Originally posted by health001
wow thats just sad they spent 3 years working on it and then trashed it O_O sounds fishy to me but then again we are working with John Smedley here this guys motives are profit driven but then again thats every ceo

Most likely the important stuff (Game Assets: Textures, Character Models, Item Models, etc) were not scrapped.

 

I suspect Dust 514 had a heavy roll in the change [to sandbox].

Well, there were leaked rumors that there were two competing designs for EQNext and Smed picked the cheaper one at the time. Now it looks like he might go back the to other design. Here are the bits, that can be considered "rumor" because the original source of the info is/was an "unidentified SOE guy", although this same guy had intersting bits about SOE over the years that proved accurate. This is from a couple years back.

Take this for whatever you personally think it is worth, but it is interesting.

http://www.mmofringe.com/forum/2-Section-8/17114-the-latest-on-SOE-and-Everquest-Next

Admirker444:

More changes coming from SOE.

Everquest Next had two pre-production builds proposed.

one build was extensive with a large budget of 100 million dollars. It was Everquest on steroids, thats its nickname around the water cooler.

the other build proposal is extremely casual. Its known around the cooler as everquest invades farmville. its budget is very small, 20 million dollars.

the farmville version was approved.

in addition, more cuts are coming within SOE. Several hundred subcontract workers have 6 month contracts expire december 31st. They will not be renewed

basically the team that was working on the Everquest on Steroids build lost the contest and is being let go

yes, it was kinda considered a contest. the better build got the money, the loser build employees got fired essentially. quite an incentive program by SOE.

If you are an Everquest fan, dont expect a true sequel. the farmville version is going to be designed for the young 19-24 facebook / hip / young san francisco up and coming executives type of people.

quite a bit of dissension over this target market as many dont believe they exist in enough numbers to support this project after launch. some thought is that by the time the game is launched, the economy will have rebounded so its foolish to design around a free to play model and a particular target market thats unproven and outside the mmo norm

So, what we have is more talk/hype from Smed/SOE, while their actions indicate something different, entirely.

Edit: and more from the same poster in a follow-up post:

Smed (he) thinks DCU failed because of the economy, not bad design. yes he is that delusional.

the free to play model he advocates has to do with the economy. and it was argued by others that the economy will pick up eventually. given a 4 yr development time frame, by the time an mmo is launched sub fees would be more viable again

I havent heard anything about planetside 2.

the info i got was centered around a staff meeting and a memo announcement about the build they were going with.

one interesting note...the more hardcore build team always felt the game was rigged (the contest). they were sure smed championed the casual cheap build and would never choose their vision for EQ Next. the money had already been allocated so essentially it was just busy work for them.

and thats how soe runs. they wasted millions on a pre-production design build they had zero intention of ever using.

Originally posted by health001
wow thats just sad they spent 3 years working on it and then trashed it O_O sounds fishy to me but then again we are working with John Smedley here this guys motives are profit driven but then again thats every ceo

It's actually more or less common in game development. Perhaps not to the extent that SOE went by remaking the ENTIRE game, but still. If the developers themselves weren't happy with the game, I think it's better that they started over again and make something they're more happy with.

But yeah, working on programming for an extended period of time only to be told that to trash the idea is apparently not that uncommon in the gaming industry. I recall hearing Todd Howard talk about this briefly when he discussed what they looked for in new employees. One of the questions they ask during the interview of new applicants is something along the lines of "What would you do if you were to work on something for 3 weeks, and then we suddenly tell you to scrap it?".

Originally posted by Burntvet

Originally posted by Dyner

Originally posted by health001
wow thats just sad they spent 3 years working on it and then trashed it O_O sounds fishy to me but then again we are working with John Smedley here this guys motives are profit driven but then again thats every ceo

Most likely the important stuff (Game Assets: Textures, Character Models, Item Models, etc) were not scrapped.

 

I suspect Dust 514 had a heavy roll in the change [to sandbox].

Well, there were leaked rumors that there were two competing designs for EQNext and Smed picked the cheaper one at the time. Now it looks like he might go back the to other design. Here are the bits, that can be considered "rumor" because the original source of the info is/was an "unidentified SOE guy", although this same guy had intersting bits about SOE over the years that proved accurate. This is from a couple years back.

Take this for whatever you personally think it is worth, but it is interesting.

 

http://www.mmofringe.com/forum/2-Section-8/17114-the-latest-on-SOE-and-Everquest-Next

Admirker444:

More changes coming from SOE.

Everquest Next had two pre-production builds proposed.

one build was extensive with a large budget of 100 million dollars. It was Everquest on steroids, thats its nickname around the water cooler.

the other build proposal is extremely casual. Its known around the cooler as everquest invades farmville. its budget is very small, 20 million dollars.

the farmville version was approved.

in addition, more cuts are coming within SOE. Several hundred subcontract workers have 6 month contracts expire december 31st. They will not be renewed

basically the team that was working on the Everquest on Steroids build lost the contest and is being let go

yes, it was kinda considered a contest. the better build got the money, the loser build employees got fired essentially. quite an incentive program by SOE.

If you are an Everquest fan, dont expect a true sequel. the farmville version is going to be designed for the young 19-24 facebook / hip / young san francisco up and coming executives type of people.

quite a bit of dissension over this target market as many dont believe they exist in enough numbers to support this project after launch. some thought is that by the time the game is launched, the economy will have rebounded so its foolish to design around a free to play model and a particular target market thats unproven and outside the mmo norm

So, what we have is more talk/hype from Smed/SOE, while their actions indicate something different, entirely.

Edit: and more from the same poster in a follow-up post:

Smed (he) thinks DCU failed because of the economy, not bad design. yes he is that delusional.

the free to play model he advocates has to do with the economy. and it was argued by others that the economy will pick up eventually. given a 4 yr development time frame, by the time an mmo is launched sub fees would be more viable again

I havent heard anything about planetside 2.

the info i got was centered around a staff meeting and a memo announcement about the build they were going with.

one interesting note...the more hardcore build team always felt the game was rigged (the contest). they were sure smed championed the casual cheap build and would never choose their vision for EQ Next. the money had already been allocated so essentially it was just busy work for them.

and thats how soe runs. they wasted millions on a pre-production design build they had zero intention of ever using.

 

 

Interesting rumors. If true it isn't shocking in the least. Hopefully evidence of what direction they are actually taking shows through when they release actual video. It seems odd to me that they have stressed the advancement is 3D tech only to put out a farmville style mmo. Looks like  almost a year though before we find out if EQNext is the game promissed or PR hype (and we have been pushed a hell of a lot of that lately).

"Theme Park is a construction and management simulation game designed by Bullfrog Productions and originally released in 1994, in which the player designs and operates an amusement park." 

source - Wikipedia

..... o_o  ?

Originally posted by ShakyMo
If its a sandbox won't that just alienate the EQ fan base that are used to raid raid raid?

The core, original EQ fanbase, the ones that love EQ for what it is was were not raiders.

Raiding developed much later..... "Raids" were originally a bunch of organized people killing something with alot of hit points. There were no scripts... no "limits" no designed loot for X number of people...

It was just one or two crazy ass world creatures that weren't meant to be killable.

EQ1, at its core was a crafting/exploratory/group dungeon crawler game.

Can someone please PM me what a real sandbox is? (Threads are just getting too long) Vanguard is very similar to SWG in many ways, just lacked the player made quests that were put in late in it's history. Only Vanguard was an SOE "token" game taken on and never received any love it truly deserved until recently and even that is based around SC stuff. UO is that a true sand box? Make houses like you want them? 

To me a Sandbox game is something like Roblox my kids play all the time. I don't see how that jives in a truly MMO aspect without instances. 

Having been an SOE fanatic since EQ1 until I got GW2 as a present for my birthday. What SOE has really been doing is trying their best to stay alive. Their games are just dead from a player interaction=MMO. They have completely watered down their titles in the last few years (thanks Smed and Smoke!) and make them "FTP" with a pretty much required extra subscription fee to play the real content which now only exists in EQ2 as repetative raid content. Having played every SOE title from EQ1 to Matrix to SWG to Freerealms, to VG, to PS1+2, etc. They're only goal now is how can we make money off of this in several different aspects? My guess is that their original concept wasn't showing a profitable SC value so they want to tweak it in that regard.

What opened my eyes was GW2, not being a fan or anything of the franchise I was very sceptical going into it. But hey it was a gift so why not... 

The game is equally FTP as EQ2 (my MAIN game since it's beta) you buy an expansion you get to play that content. Differences lie in the fact you don't need a subscription to wear good armor, or purchase tokens through SC store. You are not indated with SC requests. You don't have a business model that has been constantly changing several times within short periods. You buy the game and play. 

And the game play has completely blown me away. Seemless grouping in an area, no invites required. Dozens of players randomly joining together. Relevant content no matter what level you are and where you go, or what you are wearing. GW2 is also amazingly beautiful and just sucks you in. The main story lines are a bit linear but if you just play the game, and forget about grinding etc you come to see it actually feels like a living breathing world. And there is really no need for grinding unless your bent on being lvl "80". I got to max level pretty quickly but didnt ever feel like I had to. It just happened. I was playing PVP or running around exploring the beautiful world and was challenged ever step of the way like a game should do. Have some fun, not a second job. 

Most importantly in GW2 there are people! No matter where you go, you are not playing a solo player game in an MMO environment. As a main raider in EQ2 in one of the top guilds, we would do the same stuff every week trying to make sure everyone could follow the script and have the right plugins which hopefully worked. It just wasn't a game any more. Step outside of a raid or guild aspect the game is completely baren, no matter where you go.  If you go to WvWvW you will always be surrounded by HUNDREDS of players from your server. You think a 24 man Raid is fun... bleh! An MMO should always be spontaneous. Oh and hey, GW2 looks so much better than EQ2, runs so much smoother, has so much more depth and heart than a game that has been out for years. Someone's doing something right, and it shows.

It's so sad. I spent years and hundreds of hours playing it. But SOE's recent models shows they only care about how to suck people in and get money while they can because they have no long term ability to retain them, and their trend has been continuosly been driving that model. And their numbers show it. /cry

Cita