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Guild Wars 2

Guild Wars 2 

General Discussion  » GW2 Designing for Motivation

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49 posts found
  grimal

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 9/11/05
Posts: 2662

 
OP  10/22/12 11:14:02 AM#1

I've been thinking about GW2 and player motivation a lot lately.

One article that I found one the web describing Motivation in game design :

http://www.gamasutra.com/view/feature/1419/designing_for_motivation.php

On one of the pages, the following is stated:

"Even though this system looks ideal and scalable, it has its weaknesses. When the limit of progression is reached, the game looses its interest and the motivation disappears. If there is no limit, the system does not offer any objectives or references and thus the motivation is very weak."

This kind of ties in to the recoccuring complaints I read about lack of motivation for latter levels.

What do the rest of you think?

 

 

"I'm sorry, if you were right, I'd agree with you." - Robin Williams

  Loktofeit

Hard Core Member

Joined: 1/13/10
Posts: 12405

Currently playing EVE, SMITE, ArcheAge, and Combat Arms

10/22/12 11:21:12 AM#2

I think the level system in its current incarnation is horrible and needs to be done away with, solely because most gamers don't realize the contradiction of their two desires - always having further to progress and the feeling of accomplishing something.

 

"And wikipedia is as accurate as Britannica. Wikipedia is very reliable. You would be hard pressed to find a more reliable source for these kinds of things." -fivoroth

  FrodoFragins

Hard Core Member

Joined: 4/29/10
Posts: 2798

10/22/12 11:22:52 AM#3

I don't fault ANet for their design.  It sounded good on paper, but when I tried it there just wasn't enough reward for putting in the effort.  There is zero reward in WvW for me.  I don't even like the playstyle of the dungeons so to go through all of that just for cosmetics?  no thanks.

 

If the game is underperforming at this point it is most likely due to the lack of real character progression at end game.

  FrodoFragins

Hard Core Member

Joined: 4/29/10
Posts: 2798

10/22/12 11:25:55 AM#4
Originally posted by Loktofeit

I think the level system in its current incarnation is horrible and needs to be done away with, solely because most gamers don't realize the contradiction of their two desires - always having further to progress and the feeling of accomplishing something.

 

the leveling system is the thing I enjoy most.  Get rid of that and I'd rather play RTS or FPS games because they have better gameplay.

  clumsytoes44

Advanced Member

Joined: 4/25/12
Posts: 456

10/22/12 11:35:08 AM#5
Actually i think they hit it dead on with GW1, and failed miserably with GW2. GW1 had alot more to offer even in the first month's of life imo.
  Volkon

Novice Member

Joined: 9/14/10
Posts: 3813

Facts do not require fiction for balance.

10/22/12 12:42:19 PM#6
I've been sucked heavily into WvW lately (thanks to a great guild, leaderships, etc.) and believe me, there's no lack of motivation to play at level 80 with nearly full exotics. It's about competing, and winning (when you can). Mainly, I'm having as much, if not more, fun now than ever.

Oderint, dum metuant.

  Creslin321

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 2/27/09
Posts: 5424

10/22/12 12:52:20 PM#7
Originally posted by FrodoFragins
Originally posted by Loktofeit

I think the level system in its current incarnation is horrible and needs to be done away with, solely because most gamers don't realize the contradiction of their two desires - always having further to progress and the feeling of accomplishing something.

 

the leveling system is the thing I enjoy most.  Get rid of that and I'd rather play RTS or FPS games because they have better gameplay.

 That's debateable.  I actually enjoy GW2's gameplay more than RTS and FPS games...and I like those kinds of games.  And this is at 80 mind you, when I already have progressed basically as far as I can...just need a few exotics, and I don't think I'm going to lose interest after I get them.

 

Are you team Azeroth, team Tyria, or team Jacob?

  Creslin321

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 2/27/09
Posts: 5424

10/22/12 12:53:18 PM#8
Originally posted by Loktofeit

I think the level system in its current incarnation is horrible and needs to be done away with, solely because most gamers don't realize the contradiction of their two desires - always having further to progress and the feeling of accomplishing something.

 

 Hahaha very well said.  Illusion of accomplishment indeed :).

Are you team Azeroth, team Tyria, or team Jacob?

  Bladestrom

Elite Member

Joined: 4/04/11
Posts: 3844

10/22/12 1:15:53 PM#9
Ah I remember the days when sub goals were acceptable and rewarding.

rpg/mmorg history: Dun Darach>Bloodwych>Bards Tale 1-3>Eye of the beholder > Might and Magic 2,3,5 > FFVII> Baldur's Gate 1, 2 > Planescape Torment >Morrowind > WOW (10000 hrs on main mage)> oblivion > LOTR (600 runemaster/Hunter) > Rift (230 hours mage) > Guild Wars (1900hrs elementalist) Vanguard. > GW2(1000 elementalist), Wildstar

Now playing GW2, AOW 3, ESO, LOTR

  User Deleted
10/22/12 1:35:24 PM#10

I think one of the unforseen problems with cosmetic progression is that in most other mmos, cosmetics are commonplace. In other mmos, costumes and dyes are cheap and easy to get. Its part of the customization process and is easily accessible. But gw2 makes cosmetics the goal of end game grind and difficult content. So what was once a cheap and convenient feature is now put on the treadmill and i think that discourages some players feeling like whats the point.

  grimal

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 9/11/05
Posts: 2662

 
OP  10/22/12 1:39:58 PM#11
Originally posted by Foomerang

I think one of the unforseen problems with cosmetic progression is that in most other mmos, cosmetics are commonplace. In other mmos, costumes and dyes are cheap and easy to get. Its part of the customization process and is easily accessible. But gw2 makes cosmetics the goal of end game grind and difficult content. So what was once a cheap and convenient feature is now put on the treadmill and i think that discourages some players feeling like whats the point.

Ha! Interesting point.

"I'm sorry, if you were right, I'd agree with you." - Robin Williams

  Volkon

Novice Member

Joined: 9/14/10
Posts: 3813

Facts do not require fiction for balance.

10/22/12 1:51:11 PM#12
Originally posted by Foomerang

I think one of the unforseen problems with cosmetic progression is that in most other mmos, cosmetics are commonplace. In other mmos, costumes and dyes are cheap and easy to get. Its part of the customization process and is easily accessible. But gw2 makes cosmetics the goal of end game grind and difficult content. So what was once a cheap and convenient feature is now put on the treadmill and i think that discourages some players feeling like whats the point.

Hmm... I remember the opposite with WoW. You had raid gear, and it all looked alike. No cosmetic progression at all. If it looked like crap you had no choice... wear it or be left behind. Hell, the only real cosmetic "progression" there was the size of shoulder armor. My ol' pally tank had a family of four living in his shoulder armor.

Oderint, dum metuant.

  User Deleted
10/22/12 1:59:50 PM#13


Originally posted by Volkon

Originally posted by Foomerang I think one of the unforseen problems with cosmetic progression is that in most other mmos, cosmetics are commonplace. In other mmos, costumes and dyes are cheap and easy to get. Its part of the customization process and is easily accessible. But gw2 makes cosmetics the goal of end game grind and difficult content. So what was once a cheap and convenient feature is now put on the treadmill and i think that discourages some players feeling like whats the point.
Hmm... I remember the opposite with WoW. You had raid gear, and it all looked alike. No cosmetic progression at all. If it looked like crap you had no choice... wear it or be left behind. Hell, the only real cosmetic "progression" there was the size of shoulder armor. My ol' pally tank had a family of four living in his shoulder armor.

Rift has a wardrobe feature thats lets everyone wear everything. The dye vendor sells dozens of colors for chump change.

  Iselin

The Listener

Joined: 3/04/08
Posts: 4125

10/22/12 2:12:10 PM#14
Originally posted by Foomerang

I think one of the unforseen problems with cosmetic progression is that in most other mmos, cosmetics are commonplace. In other mmos, costumes and dyes are cheap and easy to get. Its part of the customization process and is easily accessible. But gw2 makes cosmetics the goal of end game grind and difficult content. So what was once a cheap and convenient feature is now put on the treadmill and i think that discourages some players feeling like whats the point.

You have a good point. Themeparks with the WOW end-game model (i.e. most) seem to have a never-ending gear grind progression where you need to do the dungeons and raids in a specific order to qualify for entry in the next one. GW2 does not have that gear grind so people who still (in 2012 for crissakes!) enjoy that type of end game, will feel like something is missing here. GW2 is more like DAoC than WOW once you reach 80. The end game here really is WvW. But for people who don't enjoy that and want some sort of hard-to-obtain item grind, yes, all they have is the cosmetic Legendary armor/weapon skin grind.

 

Dyes imho, are not really grindy: there are many drops all over at all levels to satisfy everyone. Even though many people don't even look at them... I get a kick seeing how black sells for about 5 gold but Midnight Sky, which is actually a nicer looking black with a slight blue sheen, goes for a couple of silvers :)

  EvilGeek

Advanced Member

Joined: 8/17/08
Posts: 1241

My freedom relies on yours

10/22/12 2:12:29 PM#15

I'm still having a blast, but then I was a pretty hard core GW player and kept my eyes closely on the game throughout development, I kinda knew what to expect.

There are problems, grinding karma in Orr gets old pretty fast and not everyone enjoys the dungeons. Variety is definitely needed if you're all about the end game.

Personally I'm loving leveling alts, seeing new parts of the world (only complete the map where my story takes me), playing out different stories and trying different classes, but not everyone likes having alts. I'm used to the idea of getting cosmetic rather than stat upgrades from years of playing GW.

Watching the forums has been interesting, even though it was well known that GW2 wouldn't have the traditional end game, most of the complaints have been exactly about that. Part of that is a lack of knowledge and part of that is simply ignoring it. It's going to be interesting to watch how content is being addressed from now on, I doubt we'll see a u-turn.


  botrytis

Advanced Member

Joined: 1/04/05
Posts: 2564

10/22/12 2:14:45 PM#16
Originally posted by Foomerang

 


Originally posted by Volkon

Originally posted by Foomerang I think one of the unforseen problems with cosmetic progression is that in most other mmos, cosmetics are commonplace. In other mmos, costumes and dyes are cheap and easy to get. Its part of the customization process and is easily accessible. But gw2 makes cosmetics the goal of end game grind and difficult content. So what was once a cheap and convenient feature is now put on the treadmill and i think that discourages some players feeling like whats the point.
Hmm... I remember the opposite with WoW. You had raid gear, and it all looked alike. No cosmetic progression at all. If it looked like crap you had no choice... wear it or be left behind. Hell, the only real cosmetic "progression" there was the size of shoulder armor. My ol' pally tank had a family of four living in his shoulder armor.

 

Rift has a wardrobe feature thats lets everyone wear everything. The dye vendor sells dozens of colors for chump change.

So did GW1....

"In 50 years, when I talk to my grandchildren about these days, I'll make sure to mention what an accomplished MMO player I was. They are going to be so proud ..."
by Naqaj - 7/17/2013 MMORPG.com forum

  Pretender00

Novice Member

Joined: 10/29/10
Posts: 85

10/22/12 2:38:55 PM#17

I really like WvW, but there are some problems I'd like to see addressed.

Keeps are too easy to seige. The biggest problem for me is the constant turn-around of keeps. I'd like to see some kind of scalable progression with keeps that make them harder to conquer the longer they are held. This back and forth swapping of ownership causes alot of the constant zerging. It needs to take a zerg longer than 3-5 minutes to take a keep.

There needs to be some kind of rewards system in place like titles, etc to make WvW mean something like RvR did in DAoC. I don't think we need the same RR system but something like it would be nice. Just not have a system where "lifers" can faceroll everyone and their mother because they're RR10.

Would a mercenary system work in WvW? If a realm is down people because of time of day, they could hire mercs to help defend keeps, do patrols, etc? These could be part of the guild perks system.

 

 

  Volkon

Novice Member

Joined: 9/14/10
Posts: 3813

Facts do not require fiction for balance.

10/22/12 3:24:02 PM#18
Originally posted by Pretender00

I really like WvW, but there are some problems I'd like to see addressed.

Keeps are too easy to seige. The biggest problem for me is the constant turn-around of keeps. I'd like to see some kind of scalable progression with keeps that make them harder to conquer the longer they are held. This back and forth swapping of ownership causes alot of the constant zerging. It needs to take a zerg longer than 3-5 minutes to take a keep.

There needs to be some kind of rewards system in place like titles, etc to make WvW mean something like RvR did in DAoC. I don't think we need the same RR system but something like it would be nice. Just not have a system where "lifers" can faceroll everyone and their mother because they're RR10.

Would a mercenary system work in WvW? If a realm is down people because of time of day, they could hire mercs to help defend keeps, do patrols, etc? These could be part of the guild perks system.

 

 

 

Keeps do get harder to conquer the longer they're held. It's called upgrades, supply and guild buffs, in addition to building defensive seige weapons as well. Part of the uprgades available are patrols, stronger guards, etc.

Oderint, dum metuant.

  Pretender00

Novice Member

Joined: 10/29/10
Posts: 85

10/22/12 3:37:15 PM#19
Originally posted by Volkon
Originally posted by Pretender00

I really like WvW, but there are some problems I'd like to see addressed.

Keeps are too easy to seige. The biggest problem for me is the constant turn-around of keeps. I'd like to see some kind of scalable progression with keeps that make them harder to conquer the longer they are held. This back and forth swapping of ownership causes alot of the constant zerging. It needs to take a zerg longer than 3-5 minutes to take a keep.

There needs to be some kind of rewards system in place like titles, etc to make WvW mean something like RvR did in DAoC. I don't think we need the same RR system but something like it would be nice. Just not have a system where "lifers" can faceroll everyone and their mother because they're RR10.

Would a mercenary system work in WvW? If a realm is down people because of time of day, they could hire mercs to help defend keeps, do patrols, etc? These could be part of the guild perks system.

 

 

 

Keeps do get harder to conquer the longer they're held. It's called upgrades, supply and guild buffs, in addition to building defensive seige weapons as well. Part of the uprgades available are patrols, stronger guards, etc.

 I know about upgrades. It's far too often that keeps don't get upgraded because the zerg rotation is too fast. I've seen keeps flip so fast that the last person of a zerg that just took a keep is just getting out of sight as the next zerg is taking the same keep back.  It's like a constant rotation.  The repetitiveness of this is the only thing that gets a little old. Except for the fact if you're part of the zerg you can get massive karma just flipping keeps.

Seriously though, what's the point of a guild claiming a keep and paying for upgrades if it's just gonna be flipped 10 minutes later? Maybe if some guilds would adopt a keep and have regular rotations of members defending it like in Daoc. But, we haven't seen that type of commitment yet.

  EagleDelta2

Novice Member

Joined: 4/07/09
Posts: 14

10/22/12 3:43:09 PM#20

My issue with most current games (MMO or non-MMO) is that, when growing up, I played video games to have fun and was satisfied.  I didn't need achievements, unlocks, gear grind, "End Game" (MMOs)... I, and all my family and friends, played to have fun....

Nowadays, no one wants to keep playing a game just for fun (maybe that's why the younger generation is starting to become less interested in video games), there HAS to be a reward to playing the game.  Why do we need that, isn't that what we go to work for - to get rewarded for doing things?  Why can't we just have fun, like everyone did until WoW / Xbox Live came out?

Games are supposed to be fun, not another achievment in the belt, not another thing to work towards.  If so, I may stop playing.  I spend hours upon hours a week working towards learning more and becoming the best I can as a Systems Administrator (as well as learning some Development skills) just so I can make sure I still have a job in 10 years, 20 years, 30 years.  It takes up most of my time (outside of work), when I'm not doing that, I'd rather focus on having fun that "working towards" virtual rewards that give me absolutely nothing in the real world.

This is why I like GW2 over any other MMO right now... it doesn't feel like work, it's just fun.

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