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The Pub at MMORPG.COM  » Easy has to go...who asked for easy ? ( Poll )

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181 posts found
  Icewhite

Made History

Joined: 7/11/11
Posts: 6495

Pink, it's like red but not quite.

10/21/12 6:43:11 AM#101
Originally posted by fenistil

Industry have to start difftent games for difftent player subsets.  Following one trend for all mainstream mmorpg's won't work that well anymore.

I'd speculate that one of the subsets  is "first-gen players retiring".

How many of our "vets" claim post-40 ages?  Any reason to not believe them?  I got to be 50 this year :/

It's an inevitability of the industry aging; the front end of the bell curve drops off, at approximately the same rate as the incoming trickle of new players.  That's how population bell curves work.  :shrug:

Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.

  fenistil

Novice Member

Joined: 9/22/11
Posts: 3016

10/21/12 7:03:42 AM#102
Originally posted by aphydork

I didn't think I needed to respond to it. My post that you were responding to answered it already. Monsters in GW2 were harder. They changed it. Due to feedback. Negative feedback. Keep up.

As for game design, I am assuming you are talking about the markers, indicating where you need to go. FFXI did not have things like that. Quests and their supporting NPC text were also very cryptic. Players basically had to look up all the quests, missions, and, actually, everything on fansites to find out where to go and what to do. 

It was stupid. I mean... I liked FFXI, but that was stupid. If you enjoy playing with less information and fleshing out the world through having to dig, there are games that give you less information to go on. To me, they're unintuitive.

It sounds like your type of game is a sandbox that gives you little information and throws you in the thick of things to level. I might be off in that assumption, but I don't particularly find those enjoyable. Those eventually boil down to everyone doing everything ineffectively for a while until a few guides pop up and then the majority abuse the guides to create a huge gap that never really closes. But I digress.

I know that they changed it - I played it. I know that there are more players that want easier that those that want harder.  I was assuming that is something that does not need to be debated.   If you think I advocated change of all or even most mmoprg's to my liking then you had wrong impression.  

Whole problem is all non-indie mmorpg's follow one design in terms of challange and other things we talk about in this topic. Think I would bitch about some mmoprpgs on forums If I would have one mmorpg with design more suited for my taste (more not ideally suited) ?    

Nah I would play it and I don't even want to play more than one mmorpg anyway so It is not my wish to change most mmoppg's.

As for FF XI - no idea have not played it. 

Yes I am talking about markers that show player where to go (and all changes to gameplay and design that come with it).

I will use your own words. For me having those is stupid.   What it does it change game into something that is not a game anymore.   You don't need to figure things out, just follow an arrow / marker.  Just following an marker is not playing game for me cause I don't need to think and don't need to make decisions. 

Coupling that with easiness of content it mean that I am almost certain that I will complete whatever it is at place that marker show me. 

So there is no game.  I don't even see what is 'game' part in doing that kind of quest.  Finding things? No. Since I don't find anything.   Figuring things out? No. I have everything presented on a silver platter.   Preparing myself? No. There are no mechanics that require any preparetion.  Combat? No.  95%-99% are solo quest made for low geared most squischy class with goal that most players should complete quest of first try.

 

So with current design there is no single element that require any effort, any decision, thinking or that bring any consequence.

 

Regarding guides - solution lies with more randomization of quest placement of quest objevtives. Now monster that is quest objective always spawn in one place (or sometimes in one of two-three pre-definated places). 

Solo quest allow for bigger personalization and randomization of those.  Also designing quests with option of failue.

Basically LESS number of quests, but more complex ones, option to fail and not complete them, more randomization, etc  That is discussion for whole other thread though.

Sandbox? Yes I like sandbox.   Just have to be well made.  Low-budget indie unfinished ones - I tried I really did try and support them, but even though I don't expect level of polishing I've been reading in topics of Swtor or Gw2 after relase and I can accept bugs as long as they are fixed - I can't stand such low quality product like Mortal Online.

  fenistil

Novice Member

Joined: 9/22/11
Posts: 3016

10/21/12 7:12:47 AM#103
Originally posted by Icewhite
Originally posted by fenistil

Industry have to start difftent games for difftent player subsets.  Following one trend for all mainstream mmorpg's won't work that well anymore.

I'd speculate that one of the subsets  is "first-gen players retiring".

How many of our "vets" claim post-40 ages?  Any reason to not believe them?  I got to be 50 this year :/

It's an inevitability of the industry aging; the front end of the bell curve drops off, at approximately the same rate as the incoming trickle of new players.  That's how population bell curves work.  :shrug:

Well I am 'first-gen player' that remember UO times before EQ release and I am still under 30.  Besides - actually 'vets' aging will mean that they will start to enter reirement peroid or at least their kids will be adults soon - so some of those oldest players will start to have more free time on their hands in coming years.   Currently many vet players are between 35-55 and are very busy working, raising kids, doing business, making their life with their partner.  It will look quite diffrent in some years.

  robhyp10

Novice Member

Joined: 2/23/09
Posts: 13

10/21/12 7:15:00 AM#104
I don't understand why anyone who wants a good hard game to play is not playing secret worlds.
  fenistil

Novice Member

Joined: 9/22/11
Posts: 3016

10/21/12 7:23:55 AM#105
Originally posted by robhyp10
I don't understand why anyone who wants a good hard game to play is not playing secret worlds.

Markers, highlights, zoned not seamless game and cash shop in a subscription game.  Fast levelling, focus on end-game instances.     Combat is classical which is fine but coupled with only 7 actives skills is really not working for me(yes I know about decks and skill wheel system - I played beta).

Investigation missions are miniority, which is to be expected and I am not complain about it., thing is other quest have quest gps, highlights and are just like in all other current mmorpg's.   

 

Funcom's enthiustatic embrace of freemium model and selling of lifetime subs seemed like TSW was going to be converted fast.  Funcom's handling of AoC with billing and with patches that even today break game horribly with almost each one, etc

Really alot of things spoken against long-term investment in this title and I am not looking mmoprg for few weeks.  Don't like to even start playing and investing time in mmoprg if I will be forced out of it fast (in example because of freemium conversion).

 

  Icewhite

Made History

Joined: 7/11/11
Posts: 6495

Pink, it's like red but not quite.

10/21/12 7:26:02 AM#106
Originally posted by robhyp10
I don't understand why anyone who wants a good hard game to play is not playing secret worlds.

Funcom.

Next question?

Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.

  halflife25

Apprentice Member

Joined: 9/13/12
Posts: 787

10/21/12 7:28:21 AM#107
Originally posted by Icewhite
Originally posted by robhyp10
I don't understand why anyone who wants a good hard game to play is not playing secret worlds.

Funcom.

Next question?

Is life better when you hold grudges against video game companies?

  Icewhite

Made History

Joined: 7/11/11
Posts: 6495

Pink, it's like red but not quite.

10/21/12 7:32:03 AM#108
Originally posted by halflife25
Is life better when you hold grudges against video game companies?

If you had experienced the Billing Debacle of 2008 that I experienced, you would never again trust them with your credit card either.

Feel free to defend them.  I do not care.

Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.

  halflife25

Apprentice Member

Joined: 9/13/12
Posts: 787

10/21/12 7:33:16 AM#109
Originally posted by Icewhite
Originally posted by halflife25
Is life better when you hold grudges against video game companies?

If you had experienced the Billing Debacle of 2008 that I experienced, you would never again trust them with your credit card either.

Feel free to defend them.  I do not care.

I didn't. It was a question.

I use entropay because i don't trust any company when it comes to my CC.

  BeansnBread

Hard Core Member

Joined: 9/19/06
Posts: 5565

10/21/12 7:36:16 AM#110
Originally posted by halflife25
Originally posted by Icewhite
Originally posted by robhyp10
I don't understand why anyone who wants a good hard game to play is not playing secret worlds.

Funcom.

Next question?

Is life better when you hold grudges against video game companies?

Life is better when you learn from your mistakes and stop buying from companies that you deem poor.

 

Have you not learned this lesson yet? When you order a pizza and it tastes horrible, do not order pizza from the same place.

 

Not that I have anything agaisnt Funcom, but a hell of a lot of people do based on their experiences with both Anarchy Online and Age of Conan.

SWTOR is the greatest mmo ever!

  Kyleran

Bitter Vet™

Joined: 9/13/06
Posts: 19494

Fools find no pleasure in understanding, but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV

10/21/12 7:38:58 AM#111
Originally posted by fenistil
Originally posted by robhyp10
I don't understand why anyone who wants a good hard game to play is not playing secret worlds.

Markers, highlights, zoned not seamless game and cash shop in a subscription game.  Fast levelling, focus on end-game instances.     Combat is classical which is fine but coupled with only 7 actives skills is really not working for me(yes I know about decks and skill wheel system - I played beta).

Investigation missions are miniority, which is to be expected and I am not complain about it., thing is other quest have quest gps, highlights and are just like in all other current mmorpg's.   

I have to agree, I died more in TSW than I had in any recent MMORPG and it was a bit refreshing, but at the end of the day you quickly find your self running out of any real progression outside of gear and heading to a gear grinding end game.

I did enjoy the amped up difficulty though, they were on the right track, shame they lost their creativity when trying to figure out what the end game should be and followed the SOP.

 

 

Arrogant, Condescending, Dismissive, Elitist, "Meany", you speak as if these are bad things?
"People can do with their money what they want. But... that doesn't make it smart" - COORS
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon

  halflife25

Apprentice Member

Joined: 9/13/12
Posts: 787

10/21/12 7:39:04 AM#112
Originally posted by colddog04
Originally posted by halflife25
Originally posted by Icewhite
Originally posted by robhyp10
I don't understand why anyone who wants a good hard game to play is not playing secret worlds.

Funcom.

Next question?

Is life better when you hold grudges against video game companies?

Life is better when you learn from your mistakes and stop buying from companies that you deem poor.

 

Have you not learned this lesson yet? When you order a pizza and it tastes horrible, do not order pizza from the same place.

 

Not that I have anything agaisnt Funcom, but a hell of a lot of people do based on their experiences with both Anarchy Online and Age of Conan.

I don't deal in absolutes though. And i played AO for many many years and now waiting for the new engine upgrade to dive back in. Sadly pizza shops don't offer free samples but when it comes to games one can try before buy.

  Icewhite

Made History

Joined: 7/11/11
Posts: 6495

Pink, it's like red but not quite.

10/21/12 7:43:25 AM#113
Originally posted by halflife25

 Sadly pizza shops don't offer free samples but when it comes to games one can try before buy.

You could, once.

Then people were forced to start using the Store-Refund Trial System, instead... 

So then beta pre-sales showed up...

We'll see what the next iteration of the consumers vs corporations retail future holds.

Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.

  moguy2

Novice Member

Joined: 9/20/12
Posts: 364

Wish I had something positive to say =(

10/21/12 8:02:20 AM#114
Originally posted by aphydork

You have to take into account that there's a huge discrepancy between the gamers that have been playing video games all their lives--before it was cool--and have played most every MMO and major game to date and MMO players that started playing games when WoW became mainstream.

The difference between the two can be as significant as the difference between a progamer and yourself. So when developers balance, they need to take into account a large range of skill levels.

You might argue that the new gamers just need to get as good as you, but... really, it's almost like asking a beginner to tennis to just get as good as a player who started playing at the age of 4. I mean, you could, but what you're really saying is, "Deal with it," which will more likely than not just make the less involved players quit.

WoW seems to have a decent system going in that there are multiple difficulty levels, and unless you have already beaten the latest heroic 25-man raid, you can't say WoW is easymode. You're just jumping on the "WoW is EZ" bandwagon. Though, it might be. I can't say for certain. I've never experienced it.

You are focusing on 25 man heroic as the basis to call WOW hard? Before you get to 25 man anything, what do you do? How do you get there? How long does it take to get there? What challenges are there before grinding gear?

As an old school gamer its about ALL the paths that lead to the end. Not what is at the end. EQ and couple other games put the fear of dying into you. Corpse runs could be a nightmare. You actually had to think about pathing mobs, where you were pulling to, and if you had enough dps to kill this thing out right or if you needed to kite it. 

Traveling from one zone to another could be deadly. If you got adds on you the only thing you could do is run for the zone and hope to god you made it.

Then when you made it to max level you banded up with folks, ran your ass to a zone and hoped and prayed to god you could kill boss X without wiping.  Wipes were brutal , to say the least.

So 25 man heroic is just 25 people , who are geared, who are OK with dying if it doesnt work. But honestly, what happens if you die? You just float back to the zone in with ease, zone in, buff up and go do it again. OR you have a shaman or a soulstoned person just pop back up and mass rez everyone ( Effortlessly ).

Thats what people are getting at. And yes it IS an easy game. There is litteraly NO challenge to it from start to finish. 25 man heroic is a challenge to beat because the boss has more hps and different moves but beyond that......No

  Quirhid

Elite Member

Joined: 1/28/05
Posts: 5725

Correcting wrongs on the Internet...

10/21/12 9:04:30 AM#115
Originally posted by robhyp10
I don't understand why anyone who wants a good hard game to play is not playing secret worlds.

Because I think it is a bad game. Been there done that and its badly made.

I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky

  Kyleran

Bitter Vet™

Joined: 9/13/06
Posts: 19494

Fools find no pleasure in understanding, but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV

10/21/12 9:11:32 AM#116
Originally posted by moguy2
Originally posted by aphydork

You have to take into account that there's a huge discrepancy between the gamers that have been playing video games all their lives--before it was cool--and have played most every MMO and major game to date and MMO players that started playing games when WoW became mainstream.

The difference between the two can be as significant as the difference between a progamer and yourself. So when developers balance, they need to take into account a large range of skill levels.

You might argue that the new gamers just need to get as good as you, but... really, it's almost like asking a beginner to tennis to just get as good as a player who started playing at the age of 4. I mean, you could, but what you're really saying is, "Deal with it," which will more likely than not just make the less involved players quit.

WoW seems to have a decent system going in that there are multiple difficulty levels, and unless you have already beaten the latest heroic 25-man raid, you can't say WoW is easymode. You're just jumping on the "WoW is EZ" bandwagon. Though, it might be. I can't say for certain. I've never experienced it.

You are focusing on 25 man heroic as the basis to call WOW hard? Before you get to 25 man anything, what do you do? How do you get there? How long does it take to get there? What challenges are there before grinding gear?

As an old school gamer its about ALL the paths that lead to the end. Not what is at the end. EQ and couple other games put the fear of dying into you. Corpse runs could be a nightmare. You actually had to think about pathing mobs, where you were pulling to, and if you had enough dps to kill this thing out right or if you needed to kite it. 

Traveling from one zone to another could be deadly. If you got adds on you the only thing you could do is run for the zone and hope to god you made it.

Then when you made it to max level you banded up with folks, ran your ass to a zone and hoped and prayed to god you could kill boss X without wiping.  Wipes were brutal , to say the least.

So 25 man heroic is just 25 people , who are geared, who are OK with dying if it doesnt work. But honestly, what happens if you die? You just float back to the zone in with ease, zone in, buff up and go do it again. OR you have a shaman or a soulstoned person just pop back up and mass rez everyone ( Effortlessly ).

Thats what people are getting at. And yes it IS an easy game. There is litteraly NO challenge to it from start to finish. 25 man heroic is a challenge to beat because the boss has more hps and different moves but beyond that......No

WOW, (no pun intended) very nice job explaining the difference in play styles between what made EQ challenging and why WOW really isn't, no in the same vein at least.  And let's not forget the challenge of coordinating raids of larger sizes than 25.

 

Arrogant, Condescending, Dismissive, Elitist, "Meany", you speak as if these are bad things?
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  Scot

Elite Member

Joined: 10/10/03
Posts: 5399

10/21/12 12:31:27 PM#117

You mean more than 25 players! Being told to do one thing! Herding cats anyone?

I remember being in cross guild faction combat in DAOC. Guild leaders trying to cordinate what was happening and trying to get their guild to do it right. A few hundred were involved. These days the group size is what 4 and a 16 man raid is biggest I saw in SWTOR. But like all the other new MMOs it was easy to get into and everthing must be sacrificed for that, grouping, crafting, raids, faction combat, roleplaying, throw them all on the bonfire and bask in the easymode.

  gordiflu

Novice Member

Joined: 1/22/07
Posts: 764

10/21/12 1:20:57 PM#118

Well, after having been following this thread for a while, looks like everybody who has participated so far would prefer more challenging games. So, while we may not be a majority, we do exist, and we may not be a minority as small as some think.

So, why the hell are we not getting any option when it comes to MMOs? Niches can mean business too. Look at EVE. Look at Minecraft.

  aphydork

Apprentice Member

Joined: 10/19/12
Posts: 133

10/21/12 4:02:44 PM#119

I'm sure developers don't mind making games to target niche demographics. The problem is with funding. Everyone here says they want challenging AND a AAA MMO. Therein lies the problem.

You'll need to find a publisher who does not mind taking a hit in revenue to cater to a smaller number of gamers, when they could just as easily inflict influence on the developers to change some numbers around--see LOWER--and now have their product be accessible to a much larger number of players, and their wallets.

You can't really blame publishers either. They're in the business of making money. The large publishers always have and always will be. There is a reason why they are willing to throw hundreds of millions of dollars at a developing company to produce AAA MMOs. There is a reason why they can throw even more money at their less successful products, like FFXIV, to get them up to par, despite having failed launches.

The silver lining, though, is that for every major AAA MMO that sells well--note that I said sell--they can fund smaller projects targeted towards niche gamers.

FFXI was a difficult but fairly successful game. Over the course of the years, they made it a lot easier as well, and Square Enix might have gotten a taste of how that affects sales. It might not be possible anymore.

  sekuharadaioo

Novice Member

Joined: 10/22/12
Posts: 22

10/22/12 5:31:09 AM#120

the good part is in world of warcraft you can choose the difficulty you want to play in.

 

at least PVP is not easy.

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