These threads should be a drinking game - there's a laundry list of cliches that come up every time.

Originally posted by maplestone

These threads should be a drinking game - there's a laundry list of cliches that come up every time.

Got a list?

Originally posted by delete5230

Blizzard made WoW easy.  Let me ask you. Do you think mmo players really asked for it ?

My guess !!!.....Blizzard and other Developers are acting on their own on this subject TO PUSH EXPANTIONS. I don't think kids are complaining at all.....It's just a marketing trick.

 

We have no hart-pumping content at all in mmo's any more. Some would call this " Old School " but hard content has nothing to do with outdated content.  We just have easy and I really don't think anyone is asking for it.

 

 

Why does hard = old school.  Who even named it that ?.......What does exploring then finding a Keep, cave, or hole in the ground, with extreamly hard content inside have to do with old school. Remember when stuff like this was not even advertised. You just found it on your own.  Players would find it and using word-of-mouth, places like this would become a hot spot. Now it's a major feature. 

I guess you have to be 50 and up to enjoy a hard, community driven mmo with a lot of un-advertised, un-knownes. I like an mmo that you better have a large friends list or a good strong guild if your even to think about leaving a popular quest hub. But then I'm 49 years old.

It's my opinion but Blizzards Titin project, and SOE's EQ Next is gonna be crap right out of the gate !....Easy, auto-feature, solo crap. Just another 30 day video game with others on the screen.

No one asked for easy; Internet access became cheap and the intellectually challenged/ Unemployed came on board and so a new con was required wghich is called F2P. Along with this the lazy types needed someothing to fit their status and that has to be easy.

And sadly the Developers other than a few are playing along because a clone is easier to make than a real game with gameplay.

Old School did not contain all the Auto Features, which caused community to form and people to work together. The key auto features tha have killed the genre are: Auction Houses/Guilds/Insta Travel/ Auto Mail.

The last real fun I had has been in EvE and Asherons Call 1, just running over an hill was an adventure in itself. High and low level mobs interspersed everywhere. So you had to scout and run before you got your XP.

You just don't see this anymore...... sad but true

I prefer a challenge.

This guy sums up my thoughts on WoW and it's shift to ez-mode

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8rd0-zVIBVo&list=FLsaY4qwkmX7DJ_Mc-04yyOw&index=2&feature=plpp_video

I'm sorry, but I like being able to see end game content. I hated having to say, "I want to see this, but my schedule no longer allows me to consistently raid in a hardcore raiding guild on a daily basis for several hours to progress."

That's the journey that people are missing.

It certainly makes the 2% feel more accomplished--and I am well aware of the superior feeling you get when you hang around town in Tier armor that many people could never even dream of touching--, but, in my opinion, it simply isn't sustainable. I don't think the majority would want to stick around with so many other MMOs being released if they didn't have a chance of seeing or doing any end game content due to the dedication involved, especially after 2-3 years.

Originally posted by Icewhite

Originally posted by rungard
players wanted accessibility..developers intrpreted it as they want easy.

Actually--players cried for soloability, from virtually EQ's opening day.

The whole industry, seeing the cash, shifted over the course of perhaps five years.  Sure enough, it was good for lots and lots of dollars.

But soloability means the content has to be tuned for the weakest classes.  After all, if all classes are not equally solo-able, the goal breaks down.  Particularly problematic in WoW, where leveling content was tuned for the low DPS/cloth armor of pure healers.

Blizzard's PvP game demanded the healers could never do more than low dps.  So rock and a hard place; a leveling game balanced around Holy Priests is not challenging (at all) to any of the Plate or DPS classes.  A class with plate survivability AND doing high DPS?  Auto-attacks all the way to the cap.  Wake me up next Thursday, when I arrive there again.

Did we 'ask' for it?  No, not really.

Did we 'ask' for some goals that were mutually opposed to other goals we also ask for?  Yep.  That one we do, all the bloody time.

 which was ironic considering that pretty much every class in eq could solo well into the kunark expansion. Well every class but the warrior and rangerr. Druid/necro/mage/enchanter/bard/shaman/cleric/wizard/shadowknight/......paladin.......warrior/ranger.i cant remember if the monk could solo or not.

Originally posted by aphydork

I'm sorry, but I like being able to see end game content. I hated having to say, "I want to see this, but my schedule no longer allows me to consistently raid in a hardcore raiding guild on a daily basis for several hours to progress."

That's the journey that people are missing.

It certainly makes the 2% feel more accomplished--and I am well aware of the superior feeling you get when you hang around town in Tier armor that many people could never even dream of touching--, but, in my opinion, it simply isn't sustainable. I don't think the majority would want to stick around with so many other MMOs being released if they didn't have a chance of seeing or doing any end game content due to the dedication involved, especially after 2-3 years.

 they have to move away from phat l33t. Its played out.

Originally posted by defector1968

all want hard but when they dont manage to finish it they start QQ and try the game glitches

admit it, you want to finish a raid / instance with 3rd attempt at best

When pursuing the server first on LK we wiped maybe a dozen times.  Then we went after the hardmode version, because we weren't tired of wiping just yet... 

Raiders have some weird motivations, and you certainly can't lump them all together.  Even PuGs...would often spend a few hours crashing against HMPutricide.  Then they'd come try again next week.  Other groups wouldn't ever make it past the Loot Boat.

Where is "hard" in this sequence?

One boss beyond the highest you and your group has reached, right?  Or the mythical "I remember when" Vanilla boss? Something from a previous game, how much better you were than these noobs you get today?  PVE isn't hard at all, pose flex (from the guy who can't avoid standing in fire)? Ask a thousand players, get a thousand answers?

Regardless of where you set the "hard" bar this week, you need to sneer at players having a rough time anywhere in the sequence lower than you.  Egoboo requires that you have someone else to look down upon.

Remember, each new expansion offers millions of oppotunities to sneer at fresh batches of clueless nubs.  Get it in before your Trophies from last expansion become dated...

Originally posted by Torvaldr
People have been complaining about hard since day 1, year 0.  It didn't happen because some mythical new weaker mmo gamer demographic moved in.

Just because people complain doesn't mean something should change. Even if they complain and it does change doesn't mean it is better.

Originally posted by Torvaldr
People have been complaining about hard since day 1, year 0.  It didn't happen because some mythical new weaker mmo gamer demographic moved in.

Who are thease people you are talking about ?.....Are you sure they are really asking for easy or are develpers doing this on there own.

1) easy = buy more expantions

2) less content needed

I had never found anyone in game or on here that are crying for easy.

World of Warcraft now is....Do two quest and up a level, sometimes you even level up on your way to turn in a both quest. Sure it gets longer but not by much !

Originally posted by Magiknight

Originally posted by Torvaldr
People have been complaining about hard since day 1, year 0.  It didn't happen because some mythical new weaker mmo gamer demographic moved in.

Just because people complain doesn't mean something should change. Even if they complain and it does change doesn't mean it is better.

I don't necessarily disagree or agree.  I'm merely pointing out that if it is easier that is because people from the very beginning didn't find that fun and bitched about it.  Some people earlier in the thread seemed to point at this next generation of mmo players that were the cause.  The current complaint (I hope the OP sees the irony in his post) rests squarely on those playing the first games.

Those who can't remember cries for boss nerfs, class nerfs, xp loss nerfs and dp nerfs, and so on, have very selective memories.  Since there have been gaming forums there have been complaints.

Originally posted by aphydork

I'm sorry, but I like being able to see end game content. I hated having to say, "I want to see this, but my schedule no longer allows me to consistently raid in a hardcore raiding guild on a daily basis for several hours to progress."

That's the journey that people are missing.

It certainly makes the 2% feel more accomplished--and I am well aware of the superior feeling you get when you hang around town in Tier armor that many people could never even dream of touching--, but, in my opinion, it simply isn't sustainable. I don't think the majority would want to stick around with so many other MMOs being released if they didn't have a chance of seeing or doing any end game content due to the dedication involved, especially after 2-3 years.

You are not getting it, sorry to be so blunt. End-game raid bosses were used as a very obvious example, but people here are talking about the overall difficulty. When you need two weeks of casual play to get to level cap and you have hardly died a couple of times during the whole process it's no wonder people get bored so quickly and jump from game to game every 2 months. How long did you last on your first MMO? How long did you last on your last one? Why did you leave? See what I mean?

I don't care about the end-game content beeing more or less exclusive. I don't care if there are no raids at all, it wouldn't be the first game I enjoy that has no raiding at end-game. I care about getting challenged during the whole leveling process, not just following arrows and facerolling everything on my way with 2 skills, and this affects everybody, not only the 2% you mention.

Originally posted by gordiflu

Originally posted by aphydork

I'm sorry, but I like being able to see end game content. I hated having to say, "I want to see this, but my schedule no longer allows me to consistently raid in a hardcore raiding guild on a daily basis for several hours to progress."

That's the journey that people are missing.

It certainly makes the 2% feel more accomplished--and I am well aware of the superior feeling you get when you hang around town in Tier armor that many people could never even dream of touching--, but, in my opinion, it simply isn't sustainable. I don't think the majority would want to stick around with so many other MMOs being released if they didn't have a chance of seeing or doing any end game content due to the dedication involved, especially after 2-3 years.

You are not getting it, sorry to be so blunt. End-game raid bosses were used as a very obvious example, but people here are talking about the overall difficulty. When you need two weeks of casual play to get to level cap and you have hardly died a couple of times during the whole process it's no wonder people get bored so quickly and jump from game to game every 2 months. How long did you last on your first MMO? How long did you last on your last one? Why did you leave? See what I mean?

I don't care about the end-game content beeing more or less exclusive. I don't care if there are no raids at all, it wouldn't be the first game I enjoy that has no raiding at end-game. I care about getting challenged during the whole leveling process, not just following arrows and facerolling everything on my way with 2 skills, and this affects everybody, not only the 2% you mention.

 

 

Thank you

Actually, I was responding to the video that was linked that mostly talked about raids.

I will be blunt as well. MMOs that are difficult overall do not sell as well. There is a market for players who like difficult games, but when you are spending millions developing an MMO, you want to appeal to more than just a niche interest group.

Diablo 3 Inferno was originally incredibly difficult, and that didn't go over so well with players. Demon Souls and Dark Souls were marketed towards players who liked challenges, and they did well enough. But do you really think a big name MMO could pull that off? Smaller MMOs, sure. AAA MMOs simply cost too much to develop and maintain to cater to a small demographic.

What they can do is offer challenging content that is optional, but it seems like optional is not a word that is received well here. So you want a game that challenges you and is just as difficult for millions of players as well? Let me also point out that "challenging" is very subjective.

At what end of the wide spectrum of player skill would you like to balance the challenges around? If you place it in the middle, the more skilled end will find it too easy. If you put it at the top end, you will alienate a lot of your playerbase.

These games are made to make money. You want challenging content all throughout, but you aren't even completing the optional challenges. Developers aren't just going to take your word for it that you want harder. They take statistics into account, and you aren't interested enough to give them that to work with.

Also, I like challenges as well, but I actually take on the optional challenges when I can. I don't expect any MMOs to cater to my level of challenge, because it's simply not feasible. We had overall challenging in the past. They didn't sell as well. There wasn't enough interest overall.

Originally posted by aphydork

Actually, I was responding to the video that was linked that mostly talked about raids.

I will be blunt as well. MMOs that are difficult overall do not sell as well. There is a market for players who like difficult games, but when you are spending millions developing an MMO, you want to appeal to more than just a niche interest group.

Diablo 3 Inferno was originally incredibly difficult, and that didn't go over so well with players. Demon Souls and Dark Souls were marketed towards players who liked challenges, and they did well enough. But do you really think a big name MMO could pull that off? Smaller MMOs, sure. AAA MMOs simply cost too much to develop and maintain to cater to a small demographic.

What they can do is offer challenging content that is optional, but it seems like optional is not a word that is received well here. So you want a game that challenges you and is just as difficult for millions of players as well? Let me also point out that "challenging" is very subjective.

At what end of the wide spectrum of player skill would you like to balance the challenges around? If you place it in the middle, the more skilled end will find it too easy. If you put it at the top end, you will alienate a lot of your playerbase.

These games are made to make money. You want challenging content all throughout, but you aren't even completing the optional challenges. Developers aren't just going to take your word for it that you want harder. They take statistics into account, and you aren't interested enough to give them that to work with.

Also, I like challenges as well, but I actually take on the optional challenges when I can. I don't expect any MMOs to cater to my level of challenge, because it's simply not feasible. We had overall challenging in the past. They didn't sell as well. There wasn't enough interest overall.

Unfortunately, the optional challenge that you are talking about is only available at end game. While I am leveling I have to artificially create that challenge for me by doing quests that are way above my level, pulling several groups at the same time and soloing things I am not supposed to solo.

So your argument about "offering optional challenging content", while valid for end-game, it does not apply to the rest of the game. There is no option. There is only an "easy-as-1-2-3-streamlined-chain-of-quests-hubs-with-arrows-pointing-directions".

I am well aware of this beeing a marketing strategy to make the game "accessible" to everybody, including the clumsiest player ever to win the clumsy national championship on clumsyland, but this does not necessarily mean that I am going to like it. Or, if you like analogies, I know Justin Bieber is selling records like bananas, but the last album I got was from Angelus Apatrida. At least I have options when it comes to challenge in music, but I don't seem to have these same options when it comes to MMOs, unless it's an underdeveloped buggy indie game which I am not interested in playing either.

This is probably why I am not playing any MMO at the moment.

Originally posted by Icewhite

Originally posted by rungard
players wanted accessibility..developers intrpreted it as they want easy.

Actually--players cried for soloability, from virtually EQ's opening day.

Not for me and not for almost every player I talked to in that game. I was too busy enjoying the teaming with other players to do content, akin to an AD&D tabletop adventure, while thinking this is awesome, it's so much more different to the single player RPG's I have!

I didn't want another single player RPG, the MMO was a different beast in that it brought multiplayer into a new idea - before then multiplayer was fighting other players, this was working with other players toward a set goal, dealing with tough creatures and fighting across planes.

Now, MMO's have shifted the other way to where they're nothing more than a single player RPG with some multiplayer co-op, while dumbing down all the content so the lowest common denominator can get his or her shiny shiny and think they're awesome. Pathetic. I wish so hard for a return to the original design.

Originally posted by gordiflu

Unfortunately, the optional challenge that you are talking about is only available at end game. While I am leveling I have to artificially create that challenge for me by doing quests that are way above my level, pulling several groups at the same time and soloing things I am not supposed to solo.

Yeah. That's just called leveling, and it's what good players do. I do downright awesome things when I level, but I doubt anyone cares.

People are complaining that leveling is way too fast, and yet, you find yourself unable to bother with the process to get to the challenge you kind of sort of want.

I'm sorry, but no game is going to cater so specifically to your needs, or mine for that matter. The counter is, "Well, they cater to the unskilled casuals," but that's not true either. The good developers are providing everyone with the tools to enjoy their games at a variety of skill levels. It's up to you to utilize them.

As for your comment about underdeveloped indie MMOs and games, that's what it comes down to. The big successful companies know to make things more accessible with allowances for players of various interests and skill levels, but we're not about to get a AAA Demon Souls MMO anytime soon.

You'll have to make do with artificially created challenges like the rest of us. And don't think of "the rest of us" as the majority. That is a mistake.