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Citadel of Sorcery

Citadel of Sorcery 

General Discussion  » CoS Kickstarter!

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136 posts found
  Wraithone

Advanced Member

Joined: 7/09/04
Posts: 3583

If you can't kill it, don't make it mad.

10/13/12 10:15:02 AM#41
Originally posted by TooCryptic
Originally posted by Jatar
Originally posted by Siveria
Originally posted by Sovrath

World and exploration:  Our world is so massive that no player will ever see it all, it is the full size of earth.  Twenty years after this game releases, there will still be places no person has ever seen.  So get ready to go exploring!

This is what sold me.

I'll believe it when I see it, I doubt this is possible, if they do pull it off expect 90% of the game to be the same repeated textures and land formations. Honestly though if this is gonna end up just another wow clone, I think they should just stop now, because the market needs innovation not more of the same garbage being spewed out over and over.

You should really read up on this before comparing us to WoW or a clone of any MMORPG.  We changed nearly everything about the MMORPG in Citadel of Sorcery.  We're so far from a clone as hardly be in the same universe.  I encourage you to read up on the game at our web site.  Our whole objective was to be different, and offer new and better game play.

From what I see this is their problem, they are not a clone and break all the WoW rules making them kind of an anomoly to publishers.  Hard to get someone to give you money if you are totally new in how you do things.  Makes sense why they have to prove it if you look at it this way.

Exactly. Given that most investors (and some publishers, to a lesser extent) know rather little about games, the mystic phrase "its just like World of Warcraft" tends to light up dollar signs in their eyes, and they then throw truck loads of money at you. ^^ 

A game that takes a new approach, especially in light of the current economic times we live in, is going to have a much more difficult time.  Which is why all of you that have been moaning about "WoW clones" should check this out.  ^^

http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/mmomagic/citadel-of-sorcery-mmorpg

http://http://www.youtube.com/user/thecitadelofsorcery?feature=results_main

 

  Myrdynn

Hard Core Member

Joined: 3/25/07
Posts: 1452

10/13/12 9:32:36 PM#42

bump

 

  Rafanest

Apprentice Member

Joined: 10/16/12
Posts: 12

10/16/12 8:05:02 PM#43

I have recently discovered this project. It is something I would like to play. I like exploring, and this game could give us the most exciting exploring experience in a videogame.

I hope they can finish succesfully their game. And we could enjoy it in the future.

Good luck!!!

 

  Ziyadah

Novice Member

Joined: 10/01/12
Posts: 13

10/19/12 2:12:45 PM#44

I've been watching this game for a long time.  The pitch is great, the concept is wonderful, and the ambition of the project is to be applauded.

It's unfortunate that a lot of people, like myself, will have serious difficulty convincing themselves to invest in it.  The reason for this is because the feature set reads like scope creep and unrealistic design got together and had a baby.  The last MMO project that even approached being this ambitious was Dragon Empires - which crashed and burned when they discovered that available server technology couldn't actually handle the game with anywhere near as many players as the game was projected to draw.

When you guys have some more technical details available, and when you've fully fleshed out how a lot of the mechanics are going to work, and when you have a product that has enough substance, I'll be right there.  Until then, the level of ambition of this project screams STAY AWAY.

  Isane

Novice Member

Joined: 5/24/06
Posts: 2698

"Some do , Some don''t , Others just cry"

Jean Sali

10/19/12 3:04:20 PM#45
Originally posted by Myrdynn
Originally posted by Caldrin

humm sounds pretty good but..

 

The world is the actualy size of earth? Now i have messed around with the outerra engnie that has a full model of earth running and there is no way in hell they would be able to fill somthing like that up with content..

 

Ill keep an eye on it but i think there are other gaems i want to back on kickstarter before this..

the thing is according to them, the engine of the game builds the terrain and content itself

 

The world is done; Just one vast jigsaw. They are populating a number of teritories for the first chapter; Other areas are truly Wild with generated ruins and content sadly the Wild Lands mean death travel how far you believe you canbut ultimately death awaits.

The territories and key storyline area are portalled to from the Citadel , so you will be within a number of kilometers of your objective ; With a mystery to uncover......

If I remember the keep/ruin set has a couple of hundred pieces that the game engine can generate a location from , it then populates an area and each NPC be it person/monster gets on with it's life. The game engine then adds your story into the lives of these objects and away you go.

Lots of info at the official site ; The code they have written is pretty impressive. They customise the key areas and the rest of the world is living and managed by the game. And that includes the players in it.

 

________________________________________________________
SWTOR and COS games that could deliver !!

  Isane

Novice Member

Joined: 5/24/06
Posts: 2698

"Some do , Some don''t , Others just cry"

Jean Sali

10/19/12 3:09:27 PM#46
Originally posted by Ziyadah

I've been watching this game for a long time.  The pitch is great, the concept is wonderful, and the ambition of the project is to be applauded.

It's unfortunate that a lot of people, like myself, will have serious difficulty convincing themselves to invest in it.  The reason for this is because the feature set reads like scope creep and unrealistic design got together and had a baby.  The last MMO project that even approached being this ambitious was Dragon Empires - which crashed and burned when they discovered that available server technology couldn't actually handle the game with anywhere near as many players as the game was projected to draw.

When you guys have some more technical details available, and when you've fully fleshed out how a lot of the mechanics are going to work, and when you have a product that has enough substance, I'll be right there.  Until then, the level of ambition of this project screams STAY AWAY.

The design is complete, so not sure where you get your info but rather than spend maybe a year on Design they have spent 8 and also written all the tools to acheive the design. They don't believe they have any show stoppers now other than time.

No other MMO can do what their engine does which is why it's hard to believe ; So unless they are lying to peoples faces I think they are a good bet. And like many of us here who have played most MMOs they have created something very special.

Worth investing in as the genre is nearly dead on it's back with respect to innovation.

It is like "Rogue" in a real size Pen and Paper World and that is worth investing in.

________________________________________________________
SWTOR and COS games that could deliver !!

  BadSpock

Hard Core Member

Joined: 8/21/04
Posts: 7769

Logic be damned!

10/19/12 3:19:04 PM#47

I won't part with hard earned money till I see game play, not just dev shot and editted video showing scenery and NPCs walking around.

True of any game, from major pub or indie.

 

Now Playing: Destiny, WoW

  Ziyadah

Novice Member

Joined: 10/01/12
Posts: 13

10/19/12 4:15:14 PM#48
Originally posted by Isane
Originally posted by Ziyadah

I've been watching this game for a long time.  The pitch is great, the concept is wonderful, and the ambition of the project is to be applauded.

It's unfortunate that a lot of people, like myself, will have serious difficulty convincing themselves to invest in it.  The reason for this is because the feature set reads like scope creep and unrealistic design got together and had a baby.  The last MMO project that even approached being this ambitious was Dragon Empires - which crashed and burned when they discovered that available server technology couldn't actually handle the game with anywhere near as many players as the game was projected to draw.

When you guys have some more technical details available, and when you've fully fleshed out how a lot of the mechanics are going to work, and when you have a product that has enough substance, I'll be right there.  Until then, the level of ambition of this project screams STAY AWAY.

The design is complete, so not sure where you get your info but rather than spend maybe a year on Design they have spent 8 and also written all the tools to acheive the design. They don't believe they have any show stoppers now other than time.

No other MMO can do what their engine does which is why it's hard to believe ; So unless they are lying to peoples faces I think they are a good bet. And like many of us here who have played most MMOs they have created something very special.

Worth investing in as the genre is nearly dead on it's back with respect to innovation.

It is like "Rogue" in a real size Pen and Paper World and that is worth investing in.

No other game period can do what their engine does.  THAT is why it's hard to believe.  The only thing that even comes vaguely close to it is Dwarf Fortress - a game that absolutely murders a computer's CPU with even 200 entities wandering around, without anything even close to the complexity of what this game claims to offer.

If you'd been keeping up with their dev blogs, you'd have noticed that they've been approaching publishers for over a year and a half now - and so far they "haven't found the right fit" which is IndustriSpeek for "no one's buying our pitch".  Again, the game SOUNDS like it's amazing and revolutionary, it SOUNDS like it's what many of us have been wanting.  What it doesn't sound like is something that's both technically and financially feasible.  The former, maybe - I'm sure you could figure out a clustering scheme that would allow you to throw enough hardware at what they're trying to do to make it run without hitting that lovely threshhold where so much of your resources are consumed with intrasystem sync and communication that you start getting a loss for every new machine added to the cluster.  Making it profitable is another matter entirely.

I do agree that the industry is nearly dead with respect to innovation.  I just have a really, really hard time buying this particular pitch.  Knowing the history, and having followed the game, the move to a KickStarter feels less like "We want to go it alone and we're looking for more funding to boost development into alpha" and more like "We're running out of money because what we're proposing sounds so unfeasible that no one will invest in us".

  Jatar

Novice Member

Joined: 9/16/07
Posts: 329

Citadel of Sorcery dev team member

10/19/12 7:17:33 PM#49
Originally posted by Ziyadah
Originally posted by Isane
Originally posted by Ziyadah

I've been watching this game for a long time.  The pitch is great, the concept is wonderful, and the ambition of the project is to be applauded.

It's unfortunate that a lot of people, like myself, will have serious difficulty convincing themselves to invest in it.  The reason for this is because the feature set reads like scope creep and unrealistic design got together and had a baby.  The last MMO project that even approached being this ambitious was Dragon Empires - which crashed and burned when they discovered that available server technology couldn't actually handle the game with anywhere near as many players as the game was projected to draw.

When you guys have some more technical details available, and when you've fully fleshed out how a lot of the mechanics are going to work, and when you have a product that has enough substance, I'll be right there.  Until then, the level of ambition of this project screams STAY AWAY.

The design is complete, so not sure where you get your info but rather than spend maybe a year on Design they have spent 8 and also written all the tools to acheive the design. They don't believe they have any show stoppers now other than time.

No other MMO can do what their engine does which is why it's hard to believe ; So unless they are lying to peoples faces I think they are a good bet. And like many of us here who have played most MMOs they have created something very special.

Worth investing in as the genre is nearly dead on it's back with respect to innovation.

It is like "Rogue" in a real size Pen and Paper World and that is worth investing in.

No other game period can do what their engine does.  THAT is why it's hard to believe.  The only thing that even comes vaguely close to it is Dwarf Fortress - a game that absolutely murders a computer's CPU with even 200 entities wandering around, without anything even close to the complexity of what this game claims to offer.

If you'd been keeping up with their dev blogs, you'd have noticed that they've been approaching publishers for over a year and a half now - and so far they "haven't found the right fit" which is IndustriSpeek for "no one's buying our pitch".  Again, the game SOUNDS like it's amazing and revolutionary, it SOUNDS like it's what many of us have been wanting.  What it doesn't sound like is something that's both technically and financially feasible.  The former, maybe - I'm sure you could figure out a clustering scheme that would allow you to throw enough hardware at what they're trying to do to make it run without hitting that lovely threshhold where so much of your resources are consumed with intrasystem sync and communication that you start getting a loss for every new machine added to the cluster.  Making it profitable is another matter entirely.

I do agree that the industry is nearly dead with respect to innovation.  I just have a really, really hard time buying this particular pitch.  Knowing the history, and having followed the game, the move to a KickStarter feels less like "We want to go it alone and we're looking for more funding to boost development into alpha" and more like "We're running out of money because what we're proposing sounds so unfeasible that no one will invest in us".

Skeptics are the reason why the MMO genre is stuck in the mud.  As long as players complain about clones and then don' t back the games that attempt to push the genre forward, all you will get are clones.   And just so you know, we have only approached three publishers, one wanted it, but also wanted to see a couple more things, in the end they really didn't have the bandwidth in funds, one wanted to see more and the third wanted the game.  We spent several months working with that publisher, and then the bottom fell out of Europe, and since this was a European publisher, they had no bank support.  We have not gone to more publishers since that first round when we found that some of them wanted to see certain things that were still in development, so we decided to get those parts to Alpha before going to more publishers.  

Now, as to the technology not working, I'm sorry, but you just don't know our engine.  In your example, you stated that even 200 entities walking around would 'murder' the frame rate, perhaps you are right, in their engine.  In ours, we currently have over 700 in a small test area.  Running the client on a mid range home style system, with a GF285 in it, we are maintaining 55 fps, and we haven't even bothered to optimize the code completely yet since things are still in development.  I'm not sure why people are such skeptics, we have done every single thing we said we would so far, but I guess people feel a need to blame us for what other companies have done.

You may not want to back our game, but until you actually have proof it doesn't work, why tell people about things you don't actually know?  May I ask, how many game engines have you coded?

  Kassina

Novice Member

Joined: 10/19/12
Posts: 25

10/19/12 7:41:54 PM#50

As usual every single game some ppl first thing they say is new or old does not matter is always "WoW Clone" even games came b4 still "WoW Clones"  i guess even some will say Tetris is "WoW Clone" lol

Either way ive been following this game as well like some of these ppl said and all i can say is i wish u guys good luck with the kickstarter and the project it self and hopefully we will see u guys launching this game in the near future :)

  Ziyadah

Novice Member

Joined: 10/01/12
Posts: 13

10/20/12 12:37:25 AM#51
Originally posted by Jatar

Skeptics are the reason why the MMO genre is stuck in the mud.  As long as players complain about clones and then don' t back the games that attempt to push the genre forward, all you will get are clones.   And just so you know, we have only approached three publishers, one wanted it, but also wanted to see a couple more things, in the end they really didn't have the bandwidth in funds, one wanted to see more and the third wanted the game.  We spent several months working with that publisher, and then the bottom fell out of Europe, and since this was a European publisher, they had no bank support.  We have not gone to more publishers since that first round when we found that some of them wanted to see certain things that were still in development, so we decided to get those parts to Alpha before going to more publishers.  

Now, as to the technology not working, I'm sorry, but you just don't know our engine.  In your example, you stated that even 200 entities walking around would 'murder' the frame rate, perhaps you are right, in their engine.  In ours, we currently have over 700 in a small test area.  Running the client on a mid range home style system, with a GF285 in it, we are maintaining 55 fps, and we haven't even bothered to optimize the code completely yet since things are still in development.  I'm not sure why people are such skeptics, we have done every single thing we said we would so far, but I guess people feel a need to blame us for what other companies have done.

You may not want to back our game, but until you actually have proof it doesn't work, why tell people about things you don't actually know?  May I ask, how many game engines have you coded?

No.  The reason the MMO genre is stuck in the MUD isn't due to skepticism.  It's due to publishers and development houses having a known formula that works.  It's the same reason the FPS genre hasn't evolved significantly since Gears of War introduced cover based shooting.  It's the same reason the RTS genre hasn't evolved significantly since Warcraft III introduced hero units.  It's the same reason that the 4X scene hasn't evolved significantly since Master of Orion 2.

The reason, sadly, that we are stuck with clones, is that every time someone tries to "push the genre forward", they do it by doing one of two things:

Introducing a gimmick, without making substantial change.  ToR did it, Rift did it, TSW did it, AoC did it, even GW2 did it although they managed to conceal that fact better than most.

or

Trying to change things so drastically that the game flat out fails because there's virtually no frame of reference and the game appeals to, at most, an extremely small niche.

And no, I don't know your engine.  So far no one knows your engine except you.  What I do know is that you, assuming what you're promising is true, have managed to create an engine that utilizes actual artificial intelligence, supports a constantly evolving world that involves emergent gameplay down to the level of flora and fauna at the biome level, individually tailors quests to every unique character, and involves character progression that's classless with 1800-something planned unique skills but that somehow won't require combat to be the most generic, bland combat ever as a result of the total inability to balance encounters.  That last one alone sets off the BS meter of anyone who's ever been involved in MMO development, unless, of course, you're also going to claim that your engine can redesign NPCs adaptively on the fly to be appropriate challenges for the players.

And I said DF murders the CPU, not the framerate.  Technically it does the latter, but only because the game is waiting on CPU cycles to render all the changes.  My point was that, while DF is not a magnificent example of design, it involves significant pathfinding, AI, and a constantly changing world - and it hammers the crap out of most any desktop system you can build once you get a large enough population.  And it's nowhere near as complex as what you're designing.  And my concern there is not desktop systems - if your game is rendering and processing everything client side you've already failed horribly, because your game will be absolutely rife with client side hacking.  My assumption is that you're going to be managing all of this through clustering on the server side.

How many have I coded?  None.  I have worked with Unreal Engine 2.5 and 3 pretty extensively, with Unity, with ForgeLight, and very briefly with that trainwreck known as Gamebryo.  What you're trying to do is ambitious on a scale that will scare off virtually any large-scale investors you might approach without significantly more than you've said you have available to show right now.

I fully believe that the engine you're building is theoretically viable in a full scale production MMO environment - and as I said, I'm entirely willing to pitch in significantly to funding.  But certainly not until you've got a lot more to show than you do right now, sorry.  You mentioned you've approached three - apologies, your dev blogs give the impression you've talked to quite a few more.  Even at three, your reception has been exactly what I'd expect with what you've put on offer so far.  Two "show us more", and one that wanted it but wasn't financially solvent enough to handle the European economic issues, which means they'd likely have failed you as a publisher in any case.

So I guess what I'm saying here is - you need more material up and viewable.  You need more specifics regarding your game structure and plans.  I realize part of the reason you're doing a kickstarter is to try and get enough funding to get to that point, but even videos of actual, unedited in-game play would go a lot to bolster the confidence of a lot of us that actually have MMO industry experience.

Edit - And I understand you probably don't like reading this, but this should be a sort of a reality check for you.  You're ten days into your Kickstarter and haven't even hit 1/10th of your goal.  You NEED to release more info than what you have now if you want to come anywhere near $700k.

  Jatar

Novice Member

Joined: 9/16/07
Posts: 329

Citadel of Sorcery dev team member

10/20/12 1:38:00 PM#52
Originally posted by Ziyadah
 

No.  The reason the MMO genre is stuck in the MUD isn't due to skepticism.  It's due to publishers and development houses having a known formula that works.  It's the same reason the FPS genre hasn't evolved significantly since Gears of War introduced cover based shooting.  It's the same reason the RTS genre hasn't evolved significantly since Warcraft III introduced hero units.  It's the same reason that the 4X scene hasn't evolved significantly since Master of Orion 2.

The reason, sadly, that we are stuck with clones, is that every time someone tries to "push the genre forward", they do it by doing one of two things:

Introducing a gimmick, without making substantial change.  ToR did it, Rift did it, TSW did it, AoC did it, even GW2 did it although they managed to conceal that fact better than most.

or

Trying to change things so drastically that the game flat out fails because there's virtually no frame of reference and the game appeals to, at most, an extremely small niche.

Yet we are doing neither of these.  Please don't assume we will fail until we do.  We have worked on this for eight years and continue to work on it.  Failure comes when you quit or fail to achieve your goals, we have done neither.  We continue on toward our goal to make everything we have promised,  steadfastly.  

And no, I don't know your engine.  So far no one knows your engine except you.  What I do know is that you, assuming what you're promising is true, have managed to create an engine that utilizes actual artificial intelligence, supports a constantly evolving world that involves emergent gameplay down to the level of flora and fauna at the biome level, individually tailors quests to every unique character, and involves character progression that's classless with 1800-something planned unique skills but that somehow won't require combat to be the most generic, bland combat ever as a result of the total inability to balance encounters.  That last one alone sets off the BS meter of anyone who's ever been involved in MMO development, unless, of course, you're also going to claim that your engine can redesign NPCs adaptively on the fly to be appropriate challenges for the players.

 

I'm sorry, but I have to make a correction to your statement,  we never claimed to have created actual artificial intelligence, that is absurd.  All we claim is that our NPCs live realistic lives.  You should read "Asked and Answered" on our web site, you will see a description of what that means, including, and I quote, "aren’t living people, they are just a good simulation of that."  We call the system an A.I. net, not actual artificial intelligence, and explain in layman's terms how this is accomplished.  The term "Artificial Intelligence" is used in the game industry to describe various levels of NPC decision making.  Actual Artificial Intelligence has never been achieved, nor have we claimed to do so.   What we are doing isn't magic, or actual artificial intelligence, it is just a lot of innovative code done over eight years by a team of good programmers.

As for the rest of your list of our accomplishments,  yes, we have indeed made those things.  Why shouldn't we?   We designed ways to accomplish our goals, and then went and did them.  As to your opinion on our combat system, well, since you haven't seen it, there is no point to discussing your opinion.  

Nothing we are doing is anywhere near impossible, very little is.  All it took was a lot of design work, some good engineers, who have experience in building previous game engines, and a lot of time and money.  We have been open about our development all along, we didn't just appear a week ago and claim to be working on this.  

And I said DF murders the CPU, not the framerate.  Technically it does the latter, but only because the game is waiting on CPU cycles to render all the changes.  My point was that, while DF is not a magnificent example of design, it involves significant pathfinding, AI, and a constantly changing world - and it hammers the crap out of most any desktop system you can build once you get a large enough population.  And it's nowhere near as complex as what you're designing.  And my concern there is not desktop systems - if your game is rendering and processing everything client side you've already failed horribly, because your game will be absolutely rife with client side hacking.  My assumption is that you're going to be managing all of this through clustering on the server side.

Your assumptions are again, incorrect.  We wrote efficient server and client systems, we took our time, and we continue to make sure it is solid and works well.  Because we wrote our own, we were not limited to what you may have seen in other systems.    We have had our game servers up and running on the net for the past six years.  All of our work on the game is done in the running online game.  Many of our workers are spread across the globe, so this was necessary.  Feel free to come on our forums and talk to any of the people who work in that game world, every day.   

How many have I coded?  None.  I have worked with Unreal Engine 2.5 and 3 pretty extensively, with Unity, with ForgeLight, and very briefly with that trainwreck known as Gamebryo.  What you're trying to do is ambitious on a scale that will scare off virtually any large-scale investors you might approach without significantly more than you've said you have available to show right now.

 

Working with existing game engines isn't experience in making a game engine.  Many of us have driven and/or fixed cars all our lives, it does not qualify us to design the engine in it.  As to our ambition, yes, we are trying to achieve something new and better, it is always interesting to see people attack someone for trying to give players something better.  

Please don't make the false assumption that you know what we have to show to publishers/investors based on what we show the public.  Publishers sign an NDA with a company before they get to see behind the curtain.  Much of what we have to show is proprietary technology.  This is what you want to, incorrectly, claim we don't have or won't work, and the very fact that it really does work makes it valuable to publishers/investors. 

With players we talk about what we're doing, and show what we can.  With publishers we demonstrate how and show the inner workings of the  server/client system, game engine and game building tools.

I fully believe that the engine you're building is theoretically viable in a full scale production MMO environment - and as I said, I'm entirely willing to pitch in significantly to funding.  But certainly not until you've got a lot more to show than you do right now, sorry.  You mentioned you've approached three - apologies, your dev blogs give the impression you've talked to quite a few more.  Even at three, your reception has been exactly what I'd expect with what you've put on offer so far.  Two "show us more", and one that wanted it but wasn't financially solvent enough to handle the European economic issues, which means they'd likely have failed you as a publisher in any case.

 

Over one hundred people have worked on this over the past eight years, with millions spent on technology development.  I'm not sure what you think a full scale production involves.  We appreciate that you are willing to pitch in when we reach some point where we can show you what you want to see.  That day will come.    As we have proven, over and over, we keep working on the game, regardless of outside funding, or skepticism.

 We have known all along that we would have to prove that  certain aspects of this new kind of game could be done, or we would have been going to publishers eight years ago.  Most of the games I have pitched and sold to publishers in the past were done solely off of my paper design, but we aimed higher on this one, and therefore, knew we had to do all the R&D ourselves, which is what we have done.  However, we are far along on the technology side now, so we're getting close to our current goal, and will then proceed on to the next.

So I guess what I'm saying here is - you need more material up and viewable.  You need more specifics regarding your game structure and plans.  I realize part of the reason you're doing a kickstarter is to try and get enough funding to get to that point, but even videos of actual, unedited in-game play would go a lot to bolster the confidence of a lot of us that actually have MMO industry experience.

 

We understand that you want see more, who wouldn't?   Everyone always wants to see more, always.  If we showed more, players would want to see even more.  Basically playerswant to see a finished game, but we can only show pre-alpha since that is where the game is at right now.  This has never been kept a secret.  The majority of the work done on the game is in the technology (you know, that stuff you keep saying we can't do).   Showing technology is not something we can easily do without showing HOW we do it, and we're just not willing to give that away publicly.  If this means you won't back our game at this stage, that's something we will just have to live with.

Edit - And I understand you probably don't like reading this, but this should be a sort of a reality check for you.  You're ten days into your Kickstarter and haven't even hit 1/10th of your goal.  You NEED to release more info than what you have now if you want to come anywhere near $700k.

 

As we have always stated, whether we make the KS funding or not it will not affect getting the game to Alpha, only the time it takes to do so.  We have also released more information on this game than any game in pre-alpha I have ever worked on, and shown far more than most games listed on KS do.  

There are pages and pages of information on the game available to anyone who wants to research it.  We openly answer any question we can on our forums.  Are we going to show you how we do things?  No.  As I mentioned, this is proprietary technology.  It's milloins of dollars worth of work, and it is what publishers and investors will be paying to purchase.  

As for donating money on KS to get this genre changing game production sped up, it is completely up to the individual.  All we can do is tell you the truth about  what we are doing, which we have.  We can show you where it's at currently, which we have done.   And we can spend all of our own personal time and money (over eight years so far) building it.  We do this in the face of attacks by people who have no reason to attack us other than they just can't believe that we can build a better MMORPG.  We're doing that too.

 

  Pellagren

Novice Member

Joined: 8/10/08
Posts: 33

10/20/12 2:56:37 PM#53

Very interesting point and counterpoint.

I will say that I have absolutely no experience with computer coding or developing a game, let alone what goes on behind the scenes to bring a game to the market place.

However, I do spend a fair amount of time with investments and equities and this reminds me of a story I heard just about three months ago.  A long standing silicon valley technology investor who has widely been acknowledged as one of the most successful investors of his time was discussing the Apple phenomenon.  Even though he knew the markets, understood the technologies and even forsaw the shift to mobile computing, completely missed the Apple boat.  He had put some money into the stock early on, and sold, at a handsome profit, at $25/share.  He was telling this story at the time Apple was north of $700/share.  He never believed it was possible that Apple could continue to grow.  It never seemed plausible that they would change the music world.  But they did.  It seemed even more remote to him that they could make phones at a profit.  But they did.  The tablet market was unproven and shouldn't be more than a blip.  But it was.  So, here is this famous investor sitting here telling a story about how, over and over, things were not possible, but they were.  It all seems so easy to see the fortunes of Apple now, but this guy missed out on historic returns because he never believed the hype. 

I understand the skepticism.  Almost all hype we hear turns out to be false on some level.  However, I have been playing computer games since Wizardry, and all I can say is that I am so glad to see that someone is trying to push gaming forward again.  I don't think many people would disagree that MMORPG's are in a rut, and have been for a long, long time.  So, I certainly can't promise that this game will ever fulfill all of its promises, but I know that for me personally, they are worth backing so they can stay out of the grasp of the large developers that would ultimately destroy the very game they are trying to make.

  Pumuckl71

Novice Member

Joined: 5/24/12
Posts: 127

10/20/12 3:08:59 PM#54

hang the publishers high , murder their project managers who only see $$  and see us endconsumers as catlle.

kickstarter is no more risk in my book that an for example EA released games .

With EA  likes i know theres a high chance that  i get a overpriced product  and theres notin i can do bout it .

Kickstarter however ...when i get screwed by a developer once ...tha devt will become  history ...and i most likely only spend  20 bucks instead of 50 .

Kickstarter brings the artist and the gamer closer together ......fuck all inbetweeners

  Ziyadah

Novice Member

Joined: 10/01/12
Posts: 13

10/20/12 5:18:11 PM#55
Originally posted by Jatar
There are pages and pages of information on the game available to anyone who wants to research it.  We openly answer any question we can on our forums.  Are we going to show you how we do things?  No.  As I mentioned, this is proprietary technology.

 

This, right here, is what I'm talking about.  You appear to have forgotten to include a competent business developer in that hundred+ people that have worked on the project.  If you had, he or she would have long since told you that when you claim to deliver the moon and stars, you have to have something to back it up if you want serious investment.  You can have as much on paper as you want - unless you can demonstrate a working model, or at the very least a non-scripted tech demo, serious investors will have nothing to do with you.

It also helps if you don't get hyperdefensive and attack skeptics, imply they're ignorant, etc.  What you SHOULD be doing is taking the immediate reactions of skeptics as areas where you need to release more information - particularly if, as you've pointed out, people are misunderstanding or getting the wrong idea.  So far I've never said that your game is a lie, can't work, etc.  I've pointed out that you have an incredibly ambitious project, and you've set an extremely high bar for yourself.  That is all.  I genuinely hope that your game works out as planned, and I genuinely hope that you get the funding you need to make it happen.  If it does, I'll be one of your players on day 1.

In the meantime, you might consider going and having a nice relaxing cup of tea, and then rereading what I've posted, and taking it as what it is, instead of trying to read it as me arguing that your project is doomed.  Just a thought.

  Isane

Novice Member

Joined: 5/24/06
Posts: 2698

"Some do , Some don''t , Others just cry"

Jean Sali

10/20/12 7:47:10 PM#56
Originally posted by Ziyadah
Originally posted by Jatar
There are pages and pages of information on the game available to anyone who wants to research it.  We openly answer any question we can on our forums.  Are we going to show you how we do things?  No.  As I mentioned, this is proprietary technology.

 

This, right here, is what I'm talking about.  You appear to have forgotten to include a competent business developer in that hundred+ people that have worked on the project.  If you had, he or she would have long since told you that when you claim to deliver the moon and stars, you have to have something to back it up if you want serious investment.  You can have as much on paper as you want - unless you can demonstrate a working model, or at the very least a non-scripted tech demo, serious investors will have nothing to do with you.

It also helps if you don't get hyperdefensive and attack skeptics, imply they're ignorant, etc.  What you SHOULD be doing is taking the immediate reactions of skeptics as areas where you need to release more information - particularly if, as you've pointed out, people are misunderstanding or getting the wrong idea.  So far I've never said that your game is a lie, can't work, etc.  I've pointed out that you have an incredibly ambitious project, and you've set an extremely high bar for yourself.  That is all.  I genuinely hope that your game works out as planned, and I genuinely hope that you get the funding you need to make it happen.  If it does, I'll be one of your players on day 1.

In the meantime, you might consider going and having a nice relaxing cup of tea, and then rereading what I've posted, and taking it as what it is, instead of trying to read it as me arguing that your project is doomed.  Just a thought.

I think you should give in with the condesending cup of tea , and acknowledge what has been said.

The Technical challenges has all been achieved, what is being said with respect to feature where it is being said is also true. What is missing now is just time and effort , and the developers acknowledge that.

Maybe a bit of praise or recognition; Because I guess Jatar spend a good deal of his precious time responding to someone who finds it hard to believe what they have designed and achieved with the toolsets they have developed.

There is not reason to disbelieve what the CoS Devs are currently saying, what have they to gain. It is surprising what can be acheived if you think outside of the box. And in reality they are basing what they have done on providing a good gameplay experience.

And they hyperdefensive coment is laughable, as if you know something works and someone says it doesn't you are in a position to point out the obvious which is what Jatar has done.

You may not like it , but then thats your problem.

 

________________________________________________________
SWTOR and COS games that could deliver !!

  Wizardry

Elite Member

Joined: 8/27/04
Posts: 6987

Perhaps tomorrow will be better.

10/20/12 8:04:14 PM#57
Originally posted by Dakirn

It launched! Woot!

 

http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/mmomag

I feel this game is worth a notice,but until there is full accessgaming,it is just paper work.The way it looks to me so far,i would say the game has no chance of being triple a quality and pledging will not change unless these guys made 100 million in pledges and totally revamped the game.

I do like the idea of the game but it simply takes too much money and this game is already in it's development stage.This means yo uare going to get a sub par quality game no matter what.All the pledges do is keep the team going and give them a chance to publish and run servers,it will not change the quality of the game.

I think the industry is just not smart enough to allow Indie developers a chance.Game engine developers should allow sahre holder licenses,that way Indie devs have top quality tools and engines to make a good game.Example Epic should allow these guys a free license and take a % of profits.As is you get nothing from them and the quality fo gaming is sub par.

http://www.youtube.com/user/Napolianboo#p/u/15/rCYLLQCNc1w
Samoan Diamond

  Loktofeit

Hard Core Member

Joined: 1/13/10
Posts: 12405

Currently playing EVE, SMITE, ArcheAge, and Combat Arms

10/20/12 8:19:14 PM#58
Originally posted by Wizardry

I think the industry is just not smart enough to allow Indie developers a chance.Game engine developers should allow sahre holder licenses,that way Indie devs have top quality tools and engines to make a good game.Example Epic should allow these guys a free license and take a % of profits.As is you get nothing from them and the quality fo gaming is sub par.

http://www.unrealengine.com/licensing/ <-- they already do that.

"And wikipedia is as accurate as Britannica. Wikipedia is very reliable. You would be hard pressed to find a more reliable source for these kinds of things." -fivoroth

  monarc333

Apprentice Member

Joined: 10/16/07
Posts: 606

Gizmofusion.com

Screenrag.com

Steamfirst.com

10/21/12 12:03:10 AM#59
While the game sounds interesting, I get the impression it will be heavly instanced. The main city acting as a hub, similar to gw1. Just my impression from readin up on them.
  amusedmonkey

Novice Member

Joined: 9/06/07
Posts: 42

10/21/12 6:12:24 AM#60
Originally posted by monarc333
While the game sounds interesting, I get the impression it will be heavly instanced. The main city acting as a hub, similar to gw1. Just my impression from readin up on them.

In a sense yes, but not exactly. These are not instances (exact copies of the same thing) but different versions of the whole world where details are different. This allows for larger variations in how your story goes since a king could be evil in one world and good on another leading to different results and a deeper story.

However, there are "community worlds" where many players can exist at once and do large scale activities in big numbers. There are many interesting kinds of community activities including but not limited to incursions into the evil lands...etc

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