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The Pub at MMORPG.COM  » Easy has to go...who asked for easy ? ( Poll )

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181 posts found
  Silok

Hard Core Member

Joined: 6/22/06
Posts: 744

10/20/12 12:13:14 PM#41
Originally posted by Roxtarr
The only 'heart pumping' excitement an MMO has ever given me is when faced with fighting against another player.  PvE combat can be fun, but an MMO really has never been all that difficult to do once the strategy is learned.  It's more of a puzzle than a skill challenge.  Against other players - that's excitement imho.

Puzzle need skill too. Dont know why people think these day that skills imply only the one who is faster with is mouse and keyboard.

PVP is not only about fast action either. Chess game is a hardcore pvp game but still you hands dexterity mean nothing. Your head tough mean everything.

In pve, creating a strategy need skills too, of course you got the unimaginative crowd, who will get the strategy on a website. But if you go there without any info, you may find a real challenge. Well not much these days, cause now they make the game, so everyone can beat it without too much efforts.

I agree with you that fast pvp is excited, but most of the time this is just a pew pew feast, where most people just try to zap anything they see.

For answering to the OP, i disagree with you, a lots of people ask for easier gaming, just go on the official forums you will see by yourself. A lots of cry folks out there who just want everything fast and easy without any efforts.

  Theocritus

Apprentice Member

Joined: 7/15/08
Posts: 3613

10/20/12 12:52:15 PM#42
    Blizzard made WoW easy because players in MMOs like EQ, UO, AO, AC, DAoC, etc were complaining that their games were too hard and that they couldn't solo very easy.....WoW listened and the rest is history.......Alot of us that really enjoyed these early MMOs never wanted easy but once WoW had its great success we never saw challenging again really until Darkfall (which had rampant cheating to offset the difficulty).
  AegisSaga

Novice Member

Joined: 5/09/12
Posts: 33

10/20/12 12:56:46 PM#43

1. The type of MMO players, that is the vast majority, who want easy content do not frequent sites like this one. That poll is like asking if the world likes tacos but only taking ballots from Mexico.

2. Blizzard did not make WoW exclusively easy. They made it easy to get into, hard to master. Go get World First of the next heroic raid tier, and come back to tell me WoW is all easy. They made WoW's difficulty a choice, easy (LFR), normal, and hard. You choose your difficulty.

3. An exclusively hard MMO will inevitably turn out to be a niche game. The problem is that MMOs are the type of game where people spend a lot of time compared to other genres. That inevitable leads to developers needing to implement repetitive content, like grinding. So if you on top of that make the grind not only tedious, but HARD, then say goodbye to the majority of MMO players.

  User Deleted
10/20/12 1:17:38 PM#44

I'm having a hard time following this right now, or maybe I just don't want to because it has a passive aggressive tone that implies certain things.

  Psyentist

Novice Member

Joined: 10/19/12
Posts: 49

10/20/12 1:37:59 PM#45

I call BS on the comment that suggests Blizzard looked at other games and decided players need less of a challenge.  If you look at how they adjusted the learning curve over the various iterations of WoW you can see they simply dumbed things down to help your stupid uncle play.  As others have pointed out, its purely marketing.  At the risk of offending people, if you want to have teenage girls, venerable non-gaming dads, and curious moms pay their $15, you have to walk them through the experience in a way that's downright insulting if you have any prior knowledge of gaming.

Looking at the history of gaming in general you can see the "Easying" emerge.  Anyone remember how difficult 8-bit nintendo and early PC games were?  Games like Contra, pitfall, Ghosts and Ghouls, Sierra's point and click adventures.  Sure they lacked the subtleties and design elements we take for granted today, but they were a challenege offered to a select few and created the culture of hardcore players.  This was fine in a limited market sense, but as games exploded in popularity, it was your casual gamer whom captured the target-audience spotlight for the majority of game companies.

Edit:  And this just occurred to me; coin-ops, the origin of many of the first home games were dificult to keep you pumping in the quarters and coming back for more.  A good player was something that would draw a crowd at my local bowling alley growing up.  Of course this business model was somewhat surplanted by Street Fighter's two player frenzy and novelty experiences like total immergion shooters and dance dance revolutions, but still there's another lost aspect of gaming difficulty: coin drops.

  SabbathSMC

Novice Member

Joined: 1/10/05
Posts: 228

10/20/12 1:45:13 PM#46
lol want to try a game thats hard, try WAR Z its hard cause you get killed not only by the zombies but by players looking for your weapons and food.

played M59,UO,lineage,EQ,Daoc,Entropia,SWG,Horizons,Lineage2.EQ2,Vangaurd,Irth online, DarkFall,Star Trek
and many others that did not make the cut or i just plain forgetting about.

  Robokapp

Hard Core Member

Joined: 11/15/09
Posts: 4570

The only luck I had today was to have you as my opponent.

10/20/12 1:48:22 PM#47

2. Blizzard did not make WoW exclusively easy. They made it easy to get into, hard to master. Go get World First of the next heroic raid tier, and come back to tell me WoW is all easy. They made WoW's difficulty a choice, easy (LFR), normal, and hard. You choose your difficulty.

try getting any world first at anything, and you'll realise it's not exactly a valid argument about WoW but about world firsts.

  Silok

Hard Core Member

Joined: 6/22/06
Posts: 744

10/20/12 1:53:47 PM#48
Originally posted by Theocritus
    Blizzard made WoW easy because players in MMOs like EQ, UO, AO, AC, DAoC, etc were complaining that their games were too hard and that they couldn't solo very easy.....WoW listened and the rest is history.......Alot of us that really enjoyed these early MMOs never wanted easy but once WoW had its great success we never saw challenging again really until Darkfall (which had rampant cheating to offset the difficulty).

Are you for real?

New mmo players where complaining that the game was too hard... most of them was new to mmo and rpg, and most of them was casual players. They wanted to have acces to everything the game had to offer, but they didnt want to take the time to get it. Its still like that now.

Im from AO and never heard anyone from AO who complaints that wow was too hard, quite the contrary.

  Silok

Hard Core Member

Joined: 6/22/06
Posts: 744

10/20/12 1:59:48 PM#49
Originally posted by AegisSaga

1. The type of MMO players, that is the vast majority, who want easy content do not frequent sites like this one. That poll is like asking if the world likes tacos but only taking ballots from Mexico.

How do you know that? Cause i saw a lots of post made by people who want easy mode, i even saw a thread start that even new game like swotor and gw2 was too hard....

2. Blizzard did not make WoW exclusively easy. They made it easy to get into, hard to master. Go get World First of the next heroic raid tier, and come back to tell me WoW is all easy. They made WoW's difficulty a choice, easy (LFR), normal, and hard. You choose your difficulty.

The big problem is that the hard content is only begin at end game raid, the journey to get there is a picnics.

3. An exclusively hard MMO will inevitably turn out to be a niche game. The problem is that MMOs are the type of game where people spend a lot of time compared to other genres. That inevitable leads to developers needing to implement repetitive content, like grinding. So if you on top of that make the grind not only tedious, but HARD, then say goodbye to the majority of MMO players.

But what about a middle ground? These days there is no middle ground just easy walk in the park.

 

  Icewhite

Made History

Joined: 7/11/11
Posts: 6495

Pink, it's like red but not quite.

10/20/12 2:05:03 PM#50
Originally posted by delete5230

Blizzard made WoW easy.  Let me ask you. Do you think mmo players really asked for it ?

Achiever personalities vs others thread again, so soon?  Is it that time of weekend already?

Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.

  Icewhite

Made History

Joined: 7/11/11
Posts: 6495

Pink, it's like red but not quite.

10/20/12 2:29:54 PM#51
Never mind.

Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.

  DSWBeef

Advanced Member

Joined: 8/11/09
Posts: 771

10/20/12 3:08:36 PM#52

Its not so much easy as that people want instant gratification... People want to clear raids in a week not months. They want to faceroll through heroics. The only games that dont do this are Niche now to many people. Sandbox games where getting that ONE piece of dragon bone armor takes months of farming dragons, rare spawns, world events, ect ect. My first major MMO was wow and even i see that its too "easy" i want everything thing i do to feel like an achievement. I just killed the kobold chieftan down in a cave after days of fighting my way through it. I just build my first shack. All should make you feel amazing but no, its now just i killed hogger on to westfall. The only sense of achievement may come from Heroic raids......

 

We need more sandboxes, where its not about who has the best gear but who can craft the most unique story...

Playing: Archeage Alpha, War Thunder, World of Tanks
Waiting on: Archeage, Wild Star, Everquest Next and The Black Desert

  aphydork

Apprentice Member

Joined: 10/19/12
Posts: 133

10/20/12 3:22:23 PM#53

In WoW's case, it's been out for 8 years, so it's getting harder and harder to keep people wanting more of the same. You could make an argument for Vanilla and BC difficulty being better for the game, but I don't know how well they'd do overall if they kept up with the extremely hardcore raid progression--as in, to gear up for the latest raid, you HAVE to have everyone fully equipped with the previous raid's gear.

Regardless, the instant gratification seems to help WoW retain members. I think other developers decided to focus on that as a design choice, and it might not have been the best decision on their part. WoW does what it does to keep players, but that didn't necessarily mean other games had to follow in suit.

When you can reach level cap within a few weeks to a month, you are slightly less attached to the character. In WoW, it works, because everyone's already so invested with other characters. In a new game, it's hard to tear people away from their attachments when it takes everyone and their mother relatively the same short amount of time to get to the same point.

So a lot of people are blaming WoW for causing this need for instant gratification, but it does what it does to keep relevant in this age of a new major MMO releasing every few months. It's also partly the fault of new developers for focusing on instant gratification as necessary to their game design. They could have and, in a lot of cases, should have had players build themselves up slowly, so that they valued their investment in the new title more.

  rungard

Novice Member

Joined: 7/25/03
Posts: 1037

The Sandbox Foundation does not exist!

10/20/12 4:43:25 PM#54
players wanted accessibility..developers intrpreted it as they want easy.
  Icewhite

Made History

Joined: 7/11/11
Posts: 6495

Pink, it's like red but not quite.

10/20/12 6:13:21 PM#55
Originally posted by rungard
players wanted accessibility..developers intrpreted it as they want easy.

Actually--players cried for soloability, from virtually EQ's opening day.

The whole industry, seeing the cash, shifted over the course of perhaps five years.  Sure enough, it was good for lots and lots of dollars.

But soloability means the content has to be tuned for the weakest classes.  After all, if all classes are not equally solo-able, the goal breaks down.  Particularly problematic in WoW, where leveling content was tuned for the low DPS/cloth armor of pure healers.

Blizzard's PvP game demanded the healers could never do more than low dps.  So rock and a hard place; a leveling game balanced around Holy Priests is not challenging (at all) to any of the Plate or DPS classes.  A class with plate survivability AND doing high DPS?  Auto-attacks all the way to the cap.  Wake me up next Thursday, when I arrive there again.

Did we 'ask' for it?  No, not really.

Did we 'ask' for some goals that were mutually opposed to other goals we also ask for?  Yep.  That one we do, all the bloody time.

Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.

  Elikal

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 2/09/06
Posts: 8067

“No path is darker then when your eyes are shut.” -Flemeth

10/20/12 8:15:27 PM#56

Oh but this question is impossible to answer meaningful. First, too many people have a misconception what "easy" and "difficult" mean. And I am not talking about different levels of personal skill, no, but semantics.

Some define difficult by the harshness of penality. That is in fact a widespread misconception, because the harshness of the penality measures not the difficulty of the task itself. Or if you mirror the idea, to gratification instead of penality, the degree of gratification also has nothing to do with the difficulty of a task. A task may be very difficult but still not lead to any satisfying reward and vice versa. No, these points of view, gratification and penality lead us nowhere in the discussion about difficulty.

Second, if we, for the sake of argument, agree to the idea of penality, I have so far not found any other way to penalize a player than with time. Any penality is in the end nothing but a variance of what I would call "stolen time": effort you put into a character or achievement is nullified and you have put more time into it, regaining it. Like experience points, or repair money. Time is the only penality that a MMO can put on a player.

 

As to the difficulty of the task itself, it goes even more complicated. What one feels is difficult, the other finds entirely easy. Some have a hard time to jump at a certain point, other find timed reactions difficult, and someone else might find combos difficult, and while all these things are certainly found easy but others.

An RPG by definition is never based on the skills of the player, but on the skills of the character, otherwise it is no longer an RPG, but an action game. And that too is an important barrier, because if in a MMO characters are all equal by player skill, it gives a certain fair and equal starting ground, unlike when a MMOFPS is mostly based on player skill, it creates a huge gap in how succesful and thus how pleasant a game experience will be, for it can certainly be highly frustrating if a large amount of player constantly loses, don't you think? So why would any company make such a MMO, I wonder?

And in this predicament, I just so far see no meaningful approach to even discuss the question, when we could not reasonable agree on the basic idea. Only if I derail a bit from the strict terms of "difficult" and "easy" and interpret them in a broader sense, I could make some statements. Like hours and days of boss camping in the old days as a "difficulty" or no ingame radar and map, or only group quests. Those would lead to a difficulty in the sense that the game itself would be difficult to play. But is that desirable, because it always means a lot of so called "downtime", when you actually do nothing but wait, either for a group or for a spawn or for your mana to restore.

That is all I can feel I can safely say about this topic.

A forum is a place where people can discuss about different opinions. So what I don't get is, how people react offended when they come to a forum and then find... well different opinions. If a different opinion offends you, what are you even doing here?

  Elikal

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 2/09/06
Posts: 8067

“No path is darker then when your eyes are shut.” -Flemeth

10/20/12 8:29:44 PM#57
Originally posted by Icewhite
Originally posted by rungard
players wanted accessibility..developers intrpreted it as they want easy.

Actually--players cried for soloability, from virtually EQ's opening day.

The whole industry, seeing the cash, shifted over the course of perhaps five years.  Sure enough, it was good for lots and lots of dollars.

But soloability means the content has to be tuned for the weakest classes.  After all, if all classes are not equally solo-able, the goal breaks down.  Particularly problematic in WoW, where leveling content was tuned for the low DPS/cloth armor of pure healers.

Blizzard's PvP game demanded the healers could never do more than low dps.  So rock and a hard place; a leveling game balanced around Holy Priests is not challenging (at all) to any of the Plate or DPS classes.  A class with plate survivability AND doing high DPS?  Auto-attacks all the way to the cap.  Wake me up next Thursday, when I arrive there again.

Did we 'ask' for it?  No, not really.

Did we 'ask' for some goals that were mutually opposed to other goals we also ask for?  Yep.  That one we do, all the bloody time.

This is indeed a huge predicament. I have not been around since EQ1 and but surely since EQ2, and I vividly recally how many from day one of EQ2 always very loudly critizised that too many quests and tasks demanded a group, and as you say, if you make a MMO solo friendly, a lot of the difficulty goes naturally out of the window.

But then, in the early days EQ2, when a lot of content was needing a group, I spent a considerably time doing nothing but waiting and seeking a group. And that was not difficult but simply boring. I see at the moment no escape from this particular dilemma.

A forum is a place where people can discuss about different opinions. So what I don't get is, how people react offended when they come to a forum and then find... well different opinions. If a different opinion offends you, what are you even doing here?

  aphydork

Apprentice Member

Joined: 10/19/12
Posts: 133

10/20/12 8:41:43 PM#58

Early on, Final Fantasy XI made it extremely difficult to solo outside of a single class, the Beastmaster, and you lost experience upon dying with the chance of losing levels as well.

The result was everyone needing to party to level efficiently. It was not unheard of to log in to look for a group for 2 hours and not actually find one, unless you were a tank or a healer. It was one of the main topics of criticism for why people did not like the game.

I think that many players say they want challenging and difficult, but they really only want it for a little while and only when it fancies them. Everyone says they wish things were harder, but they don't actually go out of their way to pursue challenges. Challenges must be brought to their feet and only when they are in the mood for it. Otherwise, they consider the game too hardcore, a grind, and not worth their time.

  User Deleted
10/20/12 8:44:27 PM#59
Originally posted by aphydork

I think that many players say they want challenging and difficult, but they really only want it for a little while and only when it fancies them. Everyone says they wish things were harder, but they don't actually go out of their way to pursue challenges. Challenges must be brought to their feet and only when they are in the mood for it. Otherwise, they consider the game too hardcore, a grind, and not worth their time.

Sounds pretty accurate to me.

  defector1968

Novice Member

Joined: 6/16/10
Posts: 400

Real Animal lovers are ONLY the vegetarians

10/20/12 8:50:21 PM#60

all want hard but when they dont manage to finish it they start QQ and try the game glitches

admit it, you want to finish a raid / instance with 3rd attempt at best

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