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Darkfall: Unholy Wars

Darkfall: Unholy Wars 

General Discussion  » So will DF:UW be a real deal Sandbox this time around, or a open endgame themepark like the first game?

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168 posts found
  Gdemami

Elite Member

Joined: 9/23/08
Posts: 7172

10/19/12 5:40:53 AM#81


Originally posted by bunnyhopper

You could have come back and pointed out the "content". You could have listed all this clear "noteworthy content" which I have either missed or did not understand.

Why me? It is you having issues with grasping very basic concept I laid out.

If you do not understand something so clear and simple and are unable to articulate your issues, I cannot help you.

  User Deleted
10/19/12 5:54:20 AM#82
Originally posted by Gdemami

 


Originally posted by bunnyhopper

You could have come back and pointed out the "content". You could have listed all this clear "noteworthy content" which I have either missed or did not understand.


 

Why me? It is you having issues with grasping very basic concept I laid out.

If you do not understand something so clear and simple and are unable to articulate your issues, I cannot help you.

You laid out a hilariously poor excuse for a case. Sorry but "it's missing somethingz...." is quite frankly, utterly shite as far as reasoned debate goes.

 

It is also rather ironic that you are trying to lambast me for not being able to articulate my "issues" when it is you I am pulling up for that very issue. The issue is your argument is a hole in the air, nothing more. Of course you can't resolve that because it would mean coming up with something actually credible and given your initial case is far from that, you are stuck relying on "ooh somethings missing don't you know".

 

Your original premise was really rather cringeworthy, your attempt at justifying it is nothing short of asinine.

 

Again: "Darkfall is like clockwork, it just fundamentally has something.......". There you go, now it is clear from that DF is a sandbox.

  Gdemami

Elite Member

Joined: 9/23/08
Posts: 7172

10/19/12 6:02:42 AM#83

Eh, not worthy..

  Kyleran

Bitter Vet™

Joined: 9/13/06
Posts: 19242

Fools find no pleasure in understanding, but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV

10/19/12 7:44:12 AM#84
Originally posted by SharpKris
Originally posted by Kuinn
You cant build sandcastles in it, so it's a sandlessbox :P

i see what you did there

 

Darkfall is my defenition of a real sandbox. can't really explain why... but i defenatly think its the best FFA pvp full loot game out   there, the sheer feeling you get while playing the game as opposed to other liner theme park mmos really makes you understand that nothing is safe, and that good people is what my idea of sandbox is all about. 

I'm in the same boat, I can't really define a sandbox to anyone's satisfaction, but I know one when I see one.

I think it's a mistake to focus on specific designs and features when trying to define a sandbox, almost any feature you can think of for a sandbox can be employed by a theme park so its sort of a no win situation.

It really is how directed the player experience is.  In a game such as EVE (which has very little in the way of players building actual content in game outside of some stations) the player is provided a full set of tools that enable them to interact with the universe and other players, but really no direction on which path the player should follow.

Theme Park titles tend to strongly encourage players to follow specific path towards progression, either in certain activities and /or by going from one area of the map to another based on their progression curve.

While DF might not provide a lot of options regarding combat (I think everyone must skill up their combat abilities through PVE to survive) it's world really is pretty open ended.  A new player can leave the start zone and wander the entire world (may not be able to kill all npc's /players they come across) so it seems to be a bit more open ended.

I think at the end of the day DF might just be a sandbox that never got around to providing a broad range of tools, and it's limitation that makes some folks misinterpret it as more of a theme park game.

 

Arrogant, Condescending, Dismissive, Elitist, "Meany", you speak as if these are bad things?
Kyleran - Bitter Vet ™ since 2006
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon

  gravesworn

Novice Member

Joined: 6/15/12
Posts: 325

10/19/12 8:22:54 AM#85
If the staff of the game keeps progressing throughout its life cycle, adds fluff over time "FoT". Evolves the mechanics as we play, and stop the hacks we could have a massively awesome game.
  User Deleted
10/19/12 8:28:49 AM#86
Originally posted by gravesworn
If the staff of the game keeps progressing throughout its life cycle, adds fluff over time "FoT". Evolves the mechanics as we play, and stop the hacks we could have a massively awesome game.

I'm a massive fan of the franchise but that is a hell of a big IF.

  Gdemami

Elite Member

Joined: 9/23/08
Posts: 7172

10/19/12 8:38:07 AM#87


Originally posted by Kyleran

While DF might not provide a lot of options regarding combat (I think everyone must skill up their combat abilities through PVE to survive) it's world really is pretty open ended. 


Just because you can wander around and grind mobs instead of questing does not make the game sandbox.

It is nothing new in theme park world. Many older games and still plenty of Asian games are based on that design. Being cheap to produce as a main factor.


Questing and subsequent world design changes was a reply to tedious grinding and evolution of the concept.

  User Deleted
10/19/12 8:53:12 AM#88
Originally posted by Gdemami

 


Originally posted by Kyleran

 

Just because you can wander around and grind mobs instead of questing does not make the game sandbox.

It is nothing new in theme park world. Many older games and still plenty of Asian games are based on that design. Being cheap to produce as a main factor.


Questing and subsequent world design changes was a reply to tedious grinding and evolution of the concept.

It has a massive, open game world.

It is skill, not class based.

It has a decentralized player driven economy based primarily on crafting, not loot epicz drops.

There is little to no linear guidance.

There is little to no emphasis placed upon quest chains and linear quest path progression.

There is little to no artificial limitations placed on player interactions.

All the primary mechanics link into one another.

There is no "separated from the game world", "endgame".

There is non instanced player housing.

There is a primary emphasis placed upon the players interaction with the game world in a persistent and open ended manner.

 

It is clealy a sandbox game, what is questionable is whether it has enough "content" within the sandbox to make it interesting to people completely outside of the scope of pvp. That doesn't though suddenly make it a themepark or "like LOTRO".

 

IB4 "it's missing something.........."

 

  DarthRaiden

Novice Member

Joined: 11/20/05
Posts: 4547

i make art,
till someone dies.

Forum Terrorist

10/19/12 6:24:36 PM#89
Originally posted by TangentPoint
Originally posted by DarthRaiden

Darkfall is doing big steps in themepark direction since the the third expansion and this expansion will be a big step in that same direction.

The developers unfortunately decided to betray their ideals and to create just a big PvP arena and not a living sandbox experience from the looks of it and the information available at this point.

pitty it had potential to become a real good MMORPG but now at best it will be a good PvP arena with has to compete with CS and other shooter.

 

This quote from the community Q&A (don't forget they add also global AH and instant travel to your body afer dead) reveals their mindset and reveals at that, that they absolutely have no clue or desire to develop a complex and meaningfull sandbox game.

 

 

Judging by announced Darkfall Unholy Wars features, and the recent video interview, Darkfall Unholy Wars appears to be taking the direction of a 'PvP arena' game rather than a complete sandbox MMORPG. Could you clear up any confusion regarding this? Will Darkfall Unholy Wars no longer be the sandbox game the original developers set out to create, but instead just become a 'PvP arena' game?


That impression may have been given because we are trying to make the PvP aspect of Darkfall Unholy Wars and especially medium to large scale battles more accessible. Because of that some new features we have announced may have given you that impression. At the same time though, all the sandbox features are still there intact and quite a few have been improved. Sieging with all the politics involved for example is still a very important aspect of Darkfall Unholy Wars. The addition of the conquest system that blends villages to the whole territory control aspect of Darkfall Unholy Wars is also intended to improve the sandbox aspect of the game. There is also a completely new feature, that we are very excited about, that will allow clans to play the part of merceneries in sieges. In short, someone that considers the current Darkfall to be a sandbox game will find Unholy Wars to be even more so.

 

They even made the new world smaller igonring the exploration type of playstyle or those who would love to  hunt for remotely hideout. Howe sandboxy is to cut landmass. I have never see in my live a developer cutting landmass, any serious developer is putting additional landmass and new regions in a expansion .

I'm confused, Darthraiden. First, weren't you one of DF's biggest supporters for a very long time? Strange to see you on the other side of the fence all of a sudden.

Second, how can you quote that entire interview excerpt you include and then still come out saying "See? They're making it more themepark like"? Did you even read the entire thing you quoted, or are you only focusing on the parts that support your argument? Are you just ignoring it? That's a serious question, because I can't fathom how you take all they describe and still get "more themepark" from it. Are you being sarcastic and I'm just totally missing it?

As for making the world smaller being a bad thing... I think it's a good thing. You could reduce Agon's overall size by 1/3 and it would still be a massive world with tons to explore. The thing is, in my opinion, DF's landmass was one of its problems in current DF because the distances are so great that it really separates people. A MMORPG that relies on community interaction (be it for PvP or for trade, or what-have-you) really benefits from people being able to meet up and do things without having to first travel for up to an hour or more. There's a point where "tons of landmass to explore" becomes a hindrance rather than a benefit.

If DF had managed to bring in tons of players where every area was healthily populated, then it wouldn't have been so bad. But that wasn't the case. You could run for an hour in that game and not see another soul.

I support indy games that build on sandbox playstyles. Darkfall has been a very good attempt at first, the foundation was there, but at some point i guess they droped the ball on sandbox and just create a big arena for full loot PvP.  I assure you the initial playerbase was more divers and now i am with those who supported it till all the info shows they don't developü towards sandbox anymore.

I can't help if you miss the lack of a sandbox vision in that quote, i try to be me understandable by highlighting their arguments of wha they think they added to the game to make it "more sandboxy". Sieging, conquest system, mercenaries in sieges  (Siege, conquest and again Sieges , got their direction ?)  is their answer to sandbox . Because additions to PvP and combat are nice they still remain additions to one playstyle. I would have loved to hear additions like local and divers ressources, local banks and additions to crafting  to allow playstyles like trader to let local playcities concur about being the best market hub in the neighberhood, to make caravans and transport goods with ships a possible gameplay feature. This would also allow for real piracy playstyle.

Yup, lets cut on one of the best apsects of Darkfall, the big seamless world , instead of expanding on it and make it more important. Yup sounds like the gave up on sandbox finally and thats why my support is very reduced, because i paid them for all the 3 past years to develop the game in the sandbox  direction and not for it being the big PvP arena, with the only motivation to do PvP being bragging rights, thats just  too shallow IMO.

Hope my reasoning is understandable.

 

 

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  Orious

Advanced Member

Joined: 12/09/08
Posts: 360

10/20/12 12:56:36 AM#90

The problem with this thread is that there is no "Oxford" or "Webster" definition for what a "Sandbox" is so that everyone can be on the same page. Right now, the OP's vision on what a sandbox is differs from many of the other people in the thread. I believe I understand the sides, so I am going to lay it out for everyone.

 

Player-Made Content

The first definition of a "Sandbox" is basically that as long as there is an abundance of player-made content then the game is a sandbox. I won't elaborate on this too much. I'll just give an example. In Darkfall, you don't get to build your castle or town exactly how you want. In SWG you could basically do this pretty well. You had "modern" building designs to choose from (this is realistic) and could place them anywhere you wanted on your claimed land. DF had pre-deisgned towns and cities. That is not sandbox. There are many other things that are pre-designed in DF as well, which might outweigh the parts that players can make. These are the reasons why this definition may not show DF as a sandbox.

 

Realism/ Freedom

Some people want realism. The more realism, the more "sandboxy". The mere fact that DF1 was widely a pvp gank-fest ruined some of the world's believability and immersion. For some gammers, the pvp feature where there are no consequences (basically) is the reality they think is most real, but it's unrealistic in my opinion even if its really fun.

 

Player-Goal Oriented vs. Game Mechanics Goal Oriented

The idea behind this is that a Sandbox game should have no strings attached and the goal of the game is whatever the player decides. In my opinion and many others in this thread, DF is very player-goal oriented, meaning you have the utmost freedom. You can go anywhere and do anything, but  if your character is not strong enough the risk of death is high. Others in this thread see that the only thing to look forward to is the fights and the sieges, the foundation of the game. Since the game is made with the greatest focus on wars, every player has only 1 goal: to get strong enough to fight in those wars. Because of this, some in this thread say that Darkfall's goal is by the design of the game mechanics and not the player's themself. I would then like to point out that every game ever invented forces players to do certain things dictated by the game's most important features, foundations, and mechanics. In this case WURM would also fall in line of Game Mechanics-Goal Oriented since the game is made for you to build and trade moreso than the PvP like in DF. The truth is that you can focus on the same things in DF that you can on WURM, LOTRO, and all the other mmorpgs if you disregard player-made content and freedom/realism (as this is not the player-made content or realism section). SEMANTICS BASICALLY.

 

BOTTOM LINE/TLDR

The bottom line here is that all of these things play a part in defining what a sandbox is and while one CAN choose one of these stances, it's better to look at them ALL (equally) to decide whether or not you feel something is "sandbox". I am biased in the fact that I see a sandbox as freedom more than player-made content, so for me I rate freedom higher than everything else. For me DF will always be a sandbox.

 

  Tymoris

Advanced Member

Joined: 10/29/09
Posts: 342

Innocence Proves Nothing

10/20/12 3:42:07 PM#91

For sure DF is not a themepark and it has a lot of sandbox features but really if I had to make an analogy.

DF is like the tabletop dungeons and dragons. All its elements are based around combat and nothing more. The non combat elements are there to support the combat parts or are very underdeveloped or basic.

The full loot and the degradation of items is just so there will be a reason to craft. Otherwise crafting would be pointless too.

  stugurt

Novice Member

Joined: 1/15/08
Posts: 46

10/20/12 5:45:03 PM#92
sandbox building would improve gameplay drastically. Predesignated keeps made the game linear and stale.
  Hotjazz

Advanced Member

Joined: 11/13/08
Posts: 752

10/20/12 8:20:16 PM#93
Originally posted by stugurt
sandbox building would improve gameplay drastically. Predesignated keeps made the game linear and stale.

I know a lot would like to build houses everywhere they can, but we have to be carefull for what we ask. I played UO, and in that game we could place a house anywhere if we found a spot. The whole world was littered with houses, and it was like running in a city most of the places.

http://andygirvan.com/2010/07/ultima-online-an-isometric-trip-down-memory-lane/

 

I know some of you have a fantasy you will be able to build a house away from other players, but that is just a dream. In UO every single flat spot all over the world had a house, tower or castle. This is how Darkfall will be if they let us build houses where we want.

 

http://www.mac512.com/uo/darkinn.html

 

Look how close those three houses are and just scale it up. You had more nature in New york than in a flat area in UO.

 

I  hope DF will have more house spots, but in designated places.

  MMOExposed

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 6/17/10
Posts: 6114

 
OP  10/20/12 8:53:09 PM#94
Originally posted by stugurt
sandbox building would improve gameplay drastically. Predesignated keeps made the game linear and stale.

Thats synonym for themepark

  MMOExposed

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 6/17/10
Posts: 6114

 
OP  10/20/12 8:57:17 PM#95
Originally posted by Hotjazz
Originally posted by stugurt
sandbox building would improve gameplay drastically. Predesignated keeps made the game linear and stale.

I know a lot would like to build houses everywhere they can, but we have to be carefull for what we ask. I played UO, and in that game we could place a house anywhere if we found a spot. The whole world was littered with houses, and it was like running in a city most of the places.

http://andygirvan.com/2010/07/ultima-online-an-isometric-trip-down-memory-lane/

 

I know some of you have a fantasy you will be able to build a house away from other players, but that is just a dream. In UO every single flat spot all over the world had a house, tower or castle. This is how Darkfall will be if they let us build houses where we want.

 

http://www.mac512.com/uo/darkinn.html

 

Look how close those three houses are and just scale it up. You had more nature in New york than in a flat area in UO.

 

I  hope DF will have more house spots, but in designated places.

wait wait wait, do you want a Themepark or a Sandbox?

simple question really. You are just sitting back trying to defend DF1's themeparkish design with the negatives of a sandbox game.

logically doesnt fit the discussion, since thats the whole reason Themepark concept was made, to address the many negative aspects of Sandbox MMO like UO.

your argument seem to be the same as those themepark mmo designers, not of a sandbox.

  kaiser3282

Tipster

Joined: 5/21/08
Posts: 2651

10/20/12 9:21:19 PM#96
Originally posted by DarthRaiden
Originally posted by TangentPoint
Originally posted by DarthRaiden

Darkfall is doing big steps in themepark direction since the the third expansion and this expansion will be a big step in that same direction.

The developers unfortunately decided to betray their ideals and to create just a big PvP arena and not a living sandbox experience from the looks of it and the information available at this point.

pitty it had potential to become a real good MMORPG but now at best it will be a good PvP arena with has to compete with CS and other shooter.

 

This quote from the community Q&A (don't forget they add also global AH and instant travel to your body afer dead) reveals their mindset and reveals at that, that they absolutely have no clue or desire to develop a complex and meaningfull sandbox game.

 

 

Judging by announced Darkfall Unholy Wars features, and the recent video interview, Darkfall Unholy Wars appears to be taking the direction of a 'PvP arena' game rather than a complete sandbox MMORPG. Could you clear up any confusion regarding this? Will Darkfall Unholy Wars no longer be the sandbox game the original developers set out to create, but instead just become a 'PvP arena' game?


That impression may have been given because we are trying to make the PvP aspect of Darkfall Unholy Wars and especially medium to large scale battles more accessible. Because of that some new features we have announced may have given you that impression. At the same time though, all the sandbox features are still there intact and quite a few have been improved. Sieging with all the politics involved for example is still a very important aspect of Darkfall Unholy Wars. The addition of the conquest system that blends villages to the whole territory control aspect of Darkfall Unholy Wars is also intended to improve the sandbox aspect of the game. There is also a completely new feature, that we are very excited about, that will allow clans to play the part of merceneries in sieges. In short, someone that considers the current Darkfall to be a sandbox game will find Unholy Wars to be even more so.

 

They even made the new world smaller igonring the exploration type of playstyle or those who would love to  hunt for remotely hideout. Howe sandboxy is to cut landmass. I have never see in my live a developer cutting landmass, any serious developer is putting additional landmass and new regions in a expansion .

I'm confused, Darthraiden. First, weren't you one of DF's biggest supporters for a very long time? Strange to see you on the other side of the fence all of a sudden.

Second, how can you quote that entire interview excerpt you include and then still come out saying "See? They're making it more themepark like"? Did you even read the entire thing you quoted, or are you only focusing on the parts that support your argument? Are you just ignoring it? That's a serious question, because I can't fathom how you take all they describe and still get "more themepark" from it. Are you being sarcastic and I'm just totally missing it?

As for making the world smaller being a bad thing... I think it's a good thing. You could reduce Agon's overall size by 1/3 and it would still be a massive world with tons to explore. The thing is, in my opinion, DF's landmass was one of its problems in current DF because the distances are so great that it really separates people. A MMORPG that relies on community interaction (be it for PvP or for trade, or what-have-you) really benefits from people being able to meet up and do things without having to first travel for up to an hour or more. There's a point where "tons of landmass to explore" becomes a hindrance rather than a benefit.

If DF had managed to bring in tons of players where every area was healthily populated, then it wouldn't have been so bad. But that wasn't the case. You could run for an hour in that game and not see another soul.

I support indy games that build on sandbox playstyles. Darkfall has been a very good attempt at first, the foundation was there, but at some point i guess they droped the ball on sandbox and just create a big arena for full loot PvP.  I assure you the initial playerbase was more divers and now i am with those who supported it till all the info shows they don't developü towards sandbox anymore.

I can't help if you miss the lack of a sandbox vision in that quote, i try to be me understandable by highlighting their arguments of wha they think they added to the game to make it "more sandboxy". Sieging, conquest system, mercenaries in sieges  (Siege, conquest and again Sieges , got their direction ?)  is their answer to sandbox . Because additions to PvP and combat are nice they still remain additions to one playstyle. I would have loved to hear additions like local and divers ressources, local banks and additions to crafting  to allow playstyles like trader to let local playcities concur about being the best market hub in the neighberhood, to make caravans and transport goods with ships a possible gameplay feature. This would also allow for real piracy playstyle.

Yup, lets cut on one of the best apsects of Darkfall, the big seamless world , instead of expanding on it and make it more important. Yup sounds like the gave up on sandbox finally and thats why my support is very reduced, because i paid them for all the 3 past years to develop the game in the sandbox  direction and not for it being the big PvP arena, with the only motivation to do PvP being bragging rights, thats just  too shallow IMO.

Hope my reasoning is understandable.

 

 

This from their F.A.Q. on the Darkfall (original) site:

 

"What kind of advanced features are you talking about?
 

Darkfall has most of the features one would associate with fantasy based MMORPGs, but also contains elements found in action and real-time strategy games. In Darkfall it's the players and their actions that shape the world. We provide you with the platform and the tools to engage in grand activities such as kingdom building, politics, strategy, diplomacy, combat, warfare, conquest, and racial wars. We also offer you the freedom and the option to not get involved in any of that if you don't want to, and to follow a path of your own."

This from the main page, sort of a feature list of sorts:

 

  • Role-playing, strategy, and shooter action in a MMOG
  • The largest handcrafted online world of its kind.
  • Over 10 thousand concurrent players per game world.
  • The largest MMORPG battles ever - involving thousands.
  • Ultimate PvP action, the #1 choice of top players and clans.
  • Seamless, zoneless, non-instanced world. No invisible walls.
  • No safe zones. Full loot. PvP everywhere with accountability.
  • No more leveling. Improve the skills you use.
  • Fight on mounts, ships, man cannons and vehicles.
  • Siege and conquer cities, build and protect your own.
  • Craft any item in the world and put your name on it.
 
This info has been there since very very early on. The focus is and always has been on the PvP & political aspect of the game, not the things you re complaining about them not focusing on. They never pretended to be something else. Its funny how some of you have this idea that if a game does not have every sandbox feature that other sandbox games had, or every single idea you can think of that would make it "more sandboxy" it suddenly stops becoming a sandbox.
  DavisFlight

Apprentice Member

Joined: 9/25/12
Posts: 2592

10/20/12 11:32:03 PM#97
Originally posted by MMOExposed
Originally posted by stugurt
sandbox building would improve gameplay drastically. Predesignated keeps made the game linear and stale.

Thats synonym for themepark

No... no it's not.

And having predesignated buildings is what helped the game be balanced. Way too easy to break things if you allow people to build everywhere.

  Zushakon

Novice Member

Joined: 12/09/08
Posts: 120

10/21/12 1:32:14 AM#98
Originally posted by MMOExposed
Originally posted by Hotjazz
Originally posted by stugurt
sandbox building would improve gameplay drastically. Predesignated keeps made the game linear and stale.

I know a lot would like to build houses everywhere they can, but we have to be carefull for what we ask. I played UO, and in that game we could place a house anywhere if we found a spot. The whole world was littered with houses, and it was like running in a city most of the places.

http://andygirvan.com/2010/07/ultima-online-an-isometric-trip-down-memory-lane/

 

I know some of you have a fantasy you will be able to build a house away from other players, but that is just a dream. In UO every single flat spot all over the world had a house, tower or castle. This is how Darkfall will be if they let us build houses where we want.

 

http://www.mac512.com/uo/darkinn.html

 

Look how close those three houses are and just scale it up. You had more nature in New york than in a flat area in UO.

 

I  hope DF will have more house spots, but in designated places.

wait wait wait, do you want a Themepark or a Sandbox?

simple question really. You are just sitting back trying to defend DF1's themeparkish design with the negatives of a sandbox game.

logically doesnt fit the discussion, since thats the whole reason Themepark concept was made, to address the many negative aspects of Sandbox MMO like UO.

your argument seem to be the same as those themepark mmo designers, not of a sandbox.

 

?? You obviously have no fucking clue what themepark or sandbox even means. I think you are just trolling though, stupidity can't be this bad.

Darkfall Unholy Wars:
Zushakon Odi

  skamper

Novice Member

Joined: 7/27/05
Posts: 253

10/21/12 1:37:40 AM#99
Originally posted by Murdus

It's Darkfall 1, with a new skill system, redesigned map, better graphics, new GUI...

So whatever that means.

I doubt the graphics will be much better.

 

OP - Pretty much going to be a large Quake 3 FFA with magic. They need to add way more RP elements to even be called an mmoRPg.

  Kshahdoo

Novice Member

Joined: 8/06/07
Posts: 560

10/21/12 7:30:27 AM#100

Lol, the worst thing about human beings - they know nothing but pretend they know everything... Yeah, I know not all humans are like this - just about 80%...

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