I've beceome less intersted in AAA MMOs as time goes on, and have been looking to the indie market for a breath of fresh air. There's actually a game called Citadel of Sorcery that started a Kickstarter campaign. They certainly have some big ideas. Who knows if they'll pull it off in the end, but I'm willing to toss a few bucks their way to help them out. I mean, I don't expect it to look and play like a triple-A game, but I'm more interested in the ideas and mechanics, and this game sounds pretty interesting in those areas. What good is a game that has a lot of spectacle if it's not engaging or emersive? That's been my issue with many of the MMOs of the last few years; I'll play for a month or so, then quit after I've felt that I've seen what it has to offer.

A few things that grabbed me about this game:

1. An earth-sized world... literally. It will take you months (of real time) to accross portions of it. It's all procedually generated, so it's probably not going to be as interesting as something that has been handcrafted. However, they have a lot of systems to govern how it develops. And what I like about it best is that the transition between different biomes will make sense and be gradual. Sudden changes in environments always kind of bugged me. Plus, they are still doing a lot of handcrafted content.

2. NPCs that live their own lives. It's kind of like Oblivion on steroids. I really doubt they are going to have voice acting or anything, but the NPCs are supposed to be more than just some lifeless robots spouting off a few lines of dialogue. They're all supposed to have jobs, friends, hobbies, and the ability to interact with other NPCs ina variety of random occurences. They claim that not even they know what the NPCs will do. I'm sure there is going to be inevitable not-so-intential hilarious NPC behavior, but as long as it's not game-breaking, it might be kind of endearing. I'm not expecting the interactions to be as good as scripted stuff, but at least it wil be different, and it will be entertaining none the less.

3. No traditional questing... not even close. I don't really know all that much about it yet, but it's supposed to be quite dynamic with the quests lasting maybe a week of playtime. Quests have never been a huge draw for me, especially what passes for quests these days. I'm a bit apprehensive about this, but the fact that are trying something unusual and ambitious has gotten my attention.

4. The world changes. Because so much of it procedurally generated, it will continue to change. Trees will grow (slowly), the terrain will erode and there will be seasons. Also, monsters stay dead, which seemed like a weird thing to say when I first read it. What they mean by that is that mobs have some type of agenda and are inherently different. For instance, if you have an altercation with an enemy, it will know you and may even hunt you down. However, once it's dead, it's dead. I don't know all that much about it yet, but it sounds interesting.

5. No classes or level cap. I'm not even 100% sure if there even are levels. There are like 1800 some odd skills that you can choose from, and they can be leveled up in some fashion, but that's all I know about it. But there's one thing for sure... no end game. For realsie reals this time. You never stop devleoping your character, and you will never run out of space to explore.

They built it up quite a bit, and I doubt it will live up to everyone's expectations (but what game does?), but it stands out to me, and it seems like a game that I can actually get engaged in. It may not have the spectacle, and it may not be as tight as a game with 10x the budget, but it definitely sounds like a game that I can lose myself in. Hell, I could just walk north for a few months. I suppose some will find the prospect of that boring, but that's why we have so many WoW clones.

I realize that this turned into a plug for CoS, but it's the main indie game that I have my eye on at the moment. If you have any info about any others, please share. What are your thoughts on the AAA market today, and do you think there is hope in the indie market?

Oh, just a side note, I don't work for them or anything. Check my history if you don't believe me. I'm just an MMO fan that wants to see something different, but has realistic expectations.

Yeah CoS is definitely worth taking a look at!

If they can pull it off.... it's gona be huge!

Although i agree with the OP, that would take a whole heap of cash. I think the biggest world i've ever come across was Dark&Light.

http://www.darkandlight.com/en/

Originally posted by blognorg

I've beceome less intersted in AAA MMOs as time goes on, and have been looking to the indie market for a breath of fresh air. There's actually a game called Citadel of Sorcery that started a Kickstarter campaign. They certainly have some big ideas. Who knows if they'll pull it off in the end, but I'm willing to toss a few bucks their way to help them out. I mean, I don't expect it to look and play like a triple-A game, but I'm more interested in the ideas and mechanics, and this game sounds pretty interesting in those areas. What good is a game that has a lot of spectacle if it's not engaging or emersive? That's been my issue with many of the MMOs of the last few years; I'll play for a month or so, then quit after I've felt that I've seen what it has to offer.

A few things that grabbed me about this game:

1. An earth-sized world... literally. It will take you months (of real time) to accross portions of it. It's all procedually generated, so it's probably not going to be as interesting as something that has been handcrafted. However, they have a lot of systems to govern how it develops. And what I like about it best is that the transition between different biomes will make sense and be gradual. Sudden changes in environments always kind of bugged me. Plus, they are still doing a lot of handcrafted content.

2. NPCs that live their own lives. It's kind of like Oblivion on steroids. I really doubt they are going to have voice acting or anything, but the NPCs are supposed to be more than just some lifeless robots spouting off a few lines of dialogue. They're all supposed to have jobs, friends, hobbies, and the ability to interact with other NPCs ina variety of random occurences. They claim that not even they know what the NPCs will do. I'm sure there is going to be inevitable not-so-intential hilarious NPC behavior, but as long as it's not game-breaking, it might be kind of endearing. I'm not expecting the interactions to be as good as scripted stuff, but at least it wil be different, and it will be entertaining none the less.

3. No traditional questing... not even close. I don't really know all that much about it yet, but it's supposed to be quite dynamic with the quests lasting maybe a week of playtime. Quests have never been a huge draw for me, especially what passes for quests these days. I'm a bit apprehensive about this, but the fact that are trying something unusual and ambitious has gotten my attention.

4. The world changes. Because so much of it procedurally generated, it will continue to change. Trees will grow (slowly), the terrain will erode and there will be seasons. Also, monsters stay dead, which seemed like a weird thing to say when I first read it. What they mean by that is that mobs have some type of agenda and are inherently different. For instance, if you have an altercation with an enemy, it will know you and may even hunt you down. However, once it's dead, it's dead. I don't know all that much about it yet, but it sounds interesting.

5. No classes or level cap. I'm not even 100% sure if there even are levels. There are like 1800 some odd skills that you can choose from, and they can be leveled up in some fashion, but that's all I know about it. But there's one thing for sure... no end game. For realsie reals this time. You never stop devleoping your character, and you will never run out of space to explore.

They built it up quite a bit, and I doubt it will live up to everyone's expectations (but what game does?), but it stands out to me, and it seems like a game that I can actually get engaged in. It may not have the spectacle, and it may not be as tight as a game with 10x the budget, but it definitely sounds like a game that I can lose myself in. Hell, I could just walk north for a few months. I suppose some will find the prospect of that boring, but that's why we have so many WoW clones.

I realize that this turned into a plug for CoS, but it's the main indie game that I have my eye on at the moment. If you have any info about any others, please share. What are your thoughts on the AAA market today, and do you think there is hope in the indie market?

Oh, just a side note, I don't work for them or anything. Check my history if you don't believe me. I'm just an MMO fan that wants to see something different, but has realistic expectations.

It doesnt take months to cross the world of Xsyon. But it will take you hours and hours of hiding, killing and meeting with other players and animals. What you suggest probably wont ever exist solely because of the mindset of mmo-players nowadays. Your best bet at getting something like that is playing games like Xsyon, supporting them and making them bigger with every month you create the world as you wish.

Originally posted by Salio69
a large massive world sounds like a sparse populated land. no point in playing an mmo if you arent playing with other people. unless everyone stays in one place and which case the rest of the world is just a waste. i like the concept but in reality, not gonna work.

If you've read through what they post, the game doesn't take place in the entire world.  There are territories that are about the size of WoW each.  Those territories sit on the planet, though, and you can explore out from them and see things nobody else ever has.

It's also plenty of room to grow, which they plan to do with their other games taking place in the same world, on the same planet.

They use some very advanced planet generation stuff to do it (they have a YouTube channel with videos that talk about it).

I would suggest if you're interested in it at all you read up on it because it seems like they've figured out the answers to problems like that already.

Originally posted by Rimmersman

Although i agree with the OP, that would take a whole heap of cash. I think the biggest world i've ever come across was Dark&Light.

http://www.darkandlight.com/en/

But I think this is also the poster child for why one should be skeptical of indie titles.

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Originally posted by Biskop Is this thread about indie games or about CoS? I don't know enough about the game, except that it sounds to good to be true. As for indie games in general, I'm an avid supporter of indie devs doing stuff the AAA suits never thought was possible. Still, big balls and great ideas only get you so far. I've seen too many cases of overhyping and underdelivering lately - I'm not falling for it any more. When some indie dev actually delivers all the amazing, revolutionary feaures they talk about, and provide me with a working game, I'll be more than happy to give them my money. Until then, I'll just listen to the talk. Talk is cheap.

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A little of both, I guess. Another one that looks interesting to me is Embers of Caerus, though hasn't had nearly the production length as CoS has. Also, it looks to be more similar to Darkfall or Mortal Online, which I tried, but couldn't quite get into. I'm keeping my eye on it, but it still has a long ways to go.

Originally posted by lars1134

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It doesnt take months to cross the world of Xsyon. But it will take you hours and hours of hiding, killing and meeting with other players and animals. What you suggest probably wont ever exist solely because of the mindset of mmo-players nowadays. Your best bet at getting something like that is playing games like Xsyon, supporting them and making them bigger with every month you create the world as you wish.

You are absolutely right.. And no matter how many people on this forum may say otherwise I guarantee that one of the first QQ threads or mass complaints in the forums post launch will be "travel time".. And then in pops the instant and fast travel options..

They won't stop there though, all the features that make themeparks what they are, are going to be the things people bitch about that are "missing"..

"Help, I can't find where to turn this quest into! We need markers!"

We are our own worst enemies.. And some of us don't even know it yet..

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Originally posted by Vyeth

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Originally posted by lars1134

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It doesnt take months to cross the world of Xsyon. But it will take you hours and hours of hiding, killing and meeting with other players and animals. What you suggest probably wont ever exist solely because of the mindset of mmo-players nowadays. Your best bet at getting something like that is playing games like Xsyon, supporting them and making them bigger with every month you create the world as you wish.

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You are absolutely right.. And no matter how many people on this forum may say otherwise I guarantee that one of the first QQ threads or mass complaints in the forums post launch will be "travel time".. And then in pops the instant and fast travel options.. They won't stop there though, all the features that make themeparks what they are, are going to be the things people bitch about that are "missing".. "Help, I can't find where to turn this quest into! We need markers!" We are our own worst enemies.. And some of us don't even know it yet..

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I agree. That's why I like niche games. I'd rather play a low-budget game that really suits me vs some homogenized corporate concoction that's designed for mass appeal. A lot of indie games don't really strike my fancy though. I'm not a terribly hardcore player, so games with FFA PvP w/full loot isn't my cup of tea. That being said, I'm glad that games like that exist, and I'm glad the some developers don't compromise on their features. Mass audience games (most of them) either don't appeal to me, or just can't hold my interest for long.

The thing with CoS is you have the choice. You can travel crazy distances very quickly or hoof it.

I am very sceptical of this game but i did plunk quite a bit of dough. This game appeals to me. I want a MMO with a living world. This game has it!

Unfortunately for many it works out like this:

Player: I want new, I want innovative, I want fresh gameplay...

Interviewer: Well have you tried Brand-X Indie Game?

Player: Yeah, but it sucked.  Nothing like a mainstream game and the graphics looked it was done by a bunch of guys in a garage.

Interviewer:  Well it was done by a bunch of guys in a garage.

Player:  See, I was right then.

Originally posted by XAPGames

Unfortunately for many it works out like this:

 

Player: I want new, I want innovative, I want fresh gameplay...

 

Interviewer: Well have you tried Brand-X Indie Game?

 

Player: Yeah, but it sucked.  Nothing like a mainstream game and the graphics looked it was done by a bunch of guys in a garage.

 

Interviewer:  Well it was done by a bunch of guys in a garage.

 

Player:  See, I was right then.

Yeah.. a lot of people are so caught up in looks of a game and forget that it's a game.

In CoS's case, they've tried to explain the models and graphics of the current PRE-ALPHA state, but people just don't read it I guess.  It's placeholder, as in temporary, as in to be chucked away.. one of the bottle necks funding is needed for.

The entire PC/NPC set of models were thrown together as high poly models to test the engine.  Not a single one is staying because the ACTUAL body generation system hasn't been written yet (and is incredibly important because it is also used to generate unique NPCs for the questhing system).

They've always been up front on their forums about it and the stuff on their site and the KS project.. the engine and game isn't complete.. it's not even to Alpha.  It still needs work, but pretty sparklies weren't the top priority for a workable Alpha when you have the other goals of an earth sized planet, NPCs living lives, and their questing system.  Pretty graphics, particle effects engines and PC/NPC model generation systems are not "unknown risks" that are impossible to do.  If they had made those first, all they would have is some pretty bodies, particle effects and absolutely nothing else.

Unfortunately too many people see what's there rather than the potential of what will be there by time it's anywhere CLOSE to releasing (again.. pre-alpha, not alpha... most games don't show anything at all before alpha, usually late alpha).

The fortunate part for me (and others who are interested in CoS) is that they've always planned to release the game no matter the outcome of KS.  It's just going to take longer.  I hope they end up doing their own crowd sourcing (besides investors and publishers once the Alpha is working).

Origins of Malu looks like a pretty good game too, yet some players can't get around their models/graphics/art.

Xyson, same way.

It's unfortunate that for a large portion of the player base it seems like looks greatly trump the game play, especially when so many are nostalgic for games like vanilla EQ, DAoC, Ultima Online, etc.

I still think Indies are the future of MMORPGs, though.. the ones that will take the financial risk to make a big change because they love games and the genre and not because they're looking for the highest rate of return on the investment.

At least Minecraft is doing okay.

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Originally posted by XAPGames Unfortunately for many it works out like this:   Player: I want new, I want innovative, I want fresh gameplay...   Interviewer: Well have you tried Brand-X Indie Game?   Player: Yeah, but it sucked.  Nothing like a mainstream game and the graphics looked it was done by a bunch of guys in a garage.   Interviewer:  Well it was done by a bunch of guys in a garage.   Player:  See, I was right then.

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lol... isn't that the truth. We all want good-looking games with tight controls, but I would rather have a clunky game with 5-10 year old graphics that I can stand to play for more than a few weeks. What I really can't stand is a mix; you know, the cheap WoW clones. It seems like that's what the majority of MMOs are today. Even GW2 didn't really feel different enough. For the most part, the crafting, leveling, and gear mechanics were pretty similar to the MMO status quo. It's not a bad game, and it looks nice, but none of its features really clicked with me in a way that was conducive for longevity.

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Originally posted by Dakirn

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Originally posted by XAPGames Unfortunately for many it works out like this:   Player: I want new, I want innovative, I want fresh gameplay...   Interviewer: Well have you tried Brand-X Indie Game?   Player: Yeah, but it sucked.  Nothing like a mainstream game and the graphics looked it was done by a bunch of guys in a garage.   Interviewer:  Well it was done by a bunch of guys in a garage.   Player:  See, I was right then.

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Yeah.. a lot of people are so caught up in looks of a game and forget that it's a game.   In CoS's case, they've tried to explain the models and graphics of the current PRE-ALPHA state, but people just don't read it I guess.  It's placeholder, as in temporary, as in to be chucked away.. one of the bottle necks funding is needed for.   The entire PC/NPC set of models were thrown together as high poly models to test the engine.  Not a single one is staying because the ACTUAL body generation system hasn't been written yet (and is incredibly important because it is also used to generate unique NPCs for the questhing system).   They've always been up front on their forums about it and the stuff on their site and the KS project.. the engine and game isn't complete.. it's not even to Alpha.  It still needs work, but pretty sparklies weren't the top priority for a workable Alpha when you have the other goals of an earth sized planet, NPCs living lives, and their questing system.  Pretty graphics, particle effects engines and PC/NPC model generation systems are not "unknown risks" that are impossible to do.  If they had made those first, all they would have is some pretty bodies, particle effects and absolutely nothing else.   Unfortunately too many people see what's there rather than the potential of what will be there by time it's anywhere CLOSE to releasing (again.. pre-alpha, not alpha... most games don't show anything at all before alpha, usually late alpha).   The fortunate part for me (and others who are interested in CoS) is that they've always planned to release the game no matter the outcome of KS.  It's just going to take longer.  I hope they end up doing their own crowd sourcing (besides investors and publishers once the Alpha is working).   Origins of Malu looks like a pretty good game too, yet some players can't get around their models/graphics/art.   Xyson, same way.   It's unfortunate that for a large portion of the player base it seems like looks greatly trump the game play, especially when so many are nostalgic for games like vanilla EQ, DAoC, Ultima Online, etc.   I still think Indies are the future of MMORPGs, though.. the ones that will take the financial risk to make a big change because they love games and the genre and not because they're looking for the highest rate of return on the investment.   At least Minecraft is doing okay.

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There are always going to be skeptics. And that's fine, as long as they are informed. There's still a lot that I don't know about CoS, and it'll be those details that will make or break it for me. I like a lot of the things that they talk about. And after reading the developer blog, it seems like they already have a lot of it working. However, I still don't know anything about how the skills, leveling or gear works. I just can't take another color-coordinated, stat-gernerated system. Or a crafting system like Gw2/WoW that we've all seen a million+ times. I doubt they are going to stick very close to that, but I'm suprised of where some games decied to stick to convention, so I'm just waiting to see. Another thing is the quests. It definitely sounds like it has potential, but with such an ambition system, it seems like there's more that could go wrong. Can you imagine if the implemented some "!" system. That would kill it for me on the spot. But with such an open-ended quest system, I wonder how they are going to help players along without blantantly putting a marker on their map. Despite many of the unknowns, it's most anticipated MMO on the horizon.

Originally posted by blognorg

 

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There are always going to be skeptics. And that's fine, as long as they are informed. There's still a lot that I don't know about CoS, and it'll be those details that will make or break it for me. I like a lot of the things that they talk about. And after reading the developer blog, it seems like they already have a lot of it working. However, I still don't know anything about how the skills, leveling or gear works. I just can't take another color-coordinated, stat-gernerated system. Or a crafting system like Gw2/WoW that we've all seen a million+ times. I doubt they are going to stick very close to that, but I'm suprised of where some games decied to stick to convention, so I'm just waiting to see. Another thing is the quests. It definitely sounds like it has potential, but with such an ambition system, it seems like there's more that could go wrong. Can you imagine if the implemented some "!" system. That would kill it for me on the spot. But with such an open-ended quest system, I wonder how they are going to help players along without blantantly putting a marker on their map. Despite many of the unknowns, it's most anticipated MMO on the horizon.

There is nothing in CoS like what you're talking about.  Read the FAQ on the site, or even make a forum account there and ask.. the developers actually respond to their community.

Skills: 1890 unique abilities, there is no class system.  You can learn any ability, you start with 10 basic ones.  You can get the tome of knowlede for any ability you want through a quest or buying from another player.  You can practice to increase skill for a little, then you put study points in to keep making an ability more powerful.  There is no cap (just diminising returns far down the line).

Levels: There are two levels, Grim and Radiant.  There is no level cap and it's designed so high and low level players can group/quest together.

Crafting/gear: Has a potential value and you determine it's stats through what they call Crafting by Adventure. You research enhancements you want on the item and do a quest to get a talisman or rune to work into the item, using potential but making the item custom.  Also since the power is in the enhancements, you can make any item look like anything you want.. magical robes are as good as platemail.

Quests: Oh my god no.  There is no "!" .. there is no marker at all.  There aren't quests in the WoW sense.  You have your personal story, which is what you are doing.  When you need to continue your story, the game finds ways to get you on the quest.. be it a messenger finding you, or an NPC accosting you on the street.  There are no quest giver NPCs (since they all live lives and never stand around) and no player will get the same quest from the same NPC EVER.

That's a brief rundown of things you mentioned.  I'd really suggest you register on their forums and ask them directly anything you're concerned about because they'll answer it.

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Originally posted by Dakirn

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Originally posted by blognorg  

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There are always going to be skeptics. And that's fine, as long as they are informed. There's still a lot that I don't know about CoS, and it'll be those details that will make or break it for me. I like a lot of the things that they talk about. And after reading the developer blog, it seems like they already have a lot of it working. However, I still don't know anything about how the skills, leveling or gear works. I just can't take another color-coordinated, stat-gernerated system. Or a crafting system like Gw2/WoW that we've all seen a million+ times. I doubt they are going to stick very close to that, but I'm suprised of where some games decied to stick to convention, so I'm just waiting to see. Another thing is the quests. It definitely sounds like it has potential, but with such an ambition system, it seems like there's more that could go wrong. Can you imagine if the implemented some "!" system. That would kill it for me on the spot. But with such an open-ended quest system, I wonder how they are going to help players along without blantantly putting a marker on their map. Despite many of the unknowns, it's most anticipated MMO on the horizon.

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  There is nothing in CoS like what you're talking about.  Read the FAQ on the site, or even make a forum account there and ask.. the developers actually respond to their community.   Skills: 1890 unique abilities, there is no class system.  You can learn any ability, you start with 10 basic ones.  You can get the tome of knowlede for any ability you want through a quest or buying from another player.  You can practice to increase skill for a little, then you put study points in to keep making an ability more powerful.  There is no cap (just diminising returns far down the line). Levels: There are two levels, Grim and Radiant.  There is no level cap and it's designed so high and low level players can group/quest together. Crafting/gear: Has a potential value and you determine it's stats through what they call Crafting by Adventure. You research enhancements you want on the item and do a quest to get a talisman or rune to work into the item, using potential but making the item custom.  Also since the power is in the enhancements, you can make any item look like anything you want.. magical robes are as good as platemail. Quests: Oh my god no.  There is no "!" .. there is no marker at all.  There aren't quests in the WoW sense.  You have your personal story, which is what you are doing.  When you need to continue your story, the game finds ways to get you on the quest.. be it a messenger finding you, or an NPC accosting you on the street.  There are no quest giver NPCs (since they all live lives and never stand around) and no player will get the same quest from the same NPC EVER. That's a brief rundown of things you mentioned.  I'd really suggest you register on their forums and ask them directly anything you're concerned about because they'll answer it.

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I had heard about the 1800 some odd skills, but I'm not sure anyone knows much more than that. I'm not sure they've released any more information on them.

I read a little about the "craft by adventure" system, but I'm still pretty unclear about how it all work, or if there are any other aspects to it, like resourece gathering. It would seem like an odd choice not to have harvesting in the game.

Hopefully they'll be able to get the Kickstarter funding, but it's not looking promising at the moment. They said that it'll get finished regardless, though. It's hard to gauge how all their ideas will pan out because many of them are so different. I'll have to wait to play it so see how it all comes togehter.