Originally posted by kaiser3282

Originally posted by Loke666

As I see it if you want to make a truly great game you first start by creating the world, then you invent the mechanics that makes it feel alive, you dont just copy and paste from different games. That did work with a certain huge game but that was only because few people played a MMO before it. If you decide what features you want first and just flick a world over it instead you get a game like TOR.

That part in red I believe is what nearly every dev has forgotten, or just never learned to begin with.

Some of the flops we've had with existing IPs (SWTOR, WAR, etc) show this very much. Instead of taking these worlds which already existed, and then coming up with mechanics and features that actually fit the world perfectly and really drew you into the world, they seem to have already had an idea of "We want to make X type of game. Now let's go buy some licensing  for a world we can force this game into".

It needs to feel more organic / natural. They need to 1st have a world, characters, lore,, etc then start designing mechanics and things to do that really fit into the settings, make sense in the lore, and fit the characters.

For example when it comes to characters / classes and combat. They have a habit of determining combat mechanics first, and then saying "OK now lets make an archer class, and make it work with this system".

What they should be doing is "We want to have an archer class. Lets design aspects of combat that really suit an archer and make you feel like you're actually an archer"

Exactly. The game might still have many well known features or not, but the important thing is that everything is custom made for the game, not feature X or Y.

WAR was particularly sad for me since the Warhammer fantasy RPG actually already have great mechanics they easily could have reengineered for a MMO and that actually fits the world.

Amost every single MMO since many years feels like someone put together a features list first based on what other successful games have instead of starting from the other side and thinking about what features the game needs to feel just right and as fun as possible.

Another sad example is LOTROs use of healers even if we all know it is against the lore. It was not really despair that killed Boromir, it was being hacked to part by orcs (even if bad morale never is good), and no minstrel could have saved him once the orcs started to hack him up. Turbine could have tried to make something that works with the world but didnt even bother to try.

[quote="Pokket"]is the industry running out of ideas for MMOs? More specifically, MMORPGs? Is the MMORPG at the end of its day? Or is it just that the executives and investors are too scared to put money into something more daring? Something that could have potential become more niche and in the process refreshing?[/quote]

No, the industry is not running out of ideas for MMOs; rather, as with movies, there is a certain track they will fall within for a certain amount of time, laying hands on genre's other than what have been done, thus far, outside of the formula, is difficult and expensive, at best, and mixing genre's is super-tricky.  To fix this, we need to have various portions of the community, normally referred to as the silent majority, come forward and begin speaking their minds.  Also, Kickstarter is helping a lot of games to, at least, get a beginning, and that will be helpful, as well.

No, the MMORPG is not at the end of its day, but it does need to take a break.  What we need is to have smaller developers get together, pool their resources, and then begin developing a game.  Perhaps there should be some manner of private coalition of developers who would determine the 'cycles' on which MMORPGs are developed, who would build their smaller-group proposals, be let into the coalition if they have enough to get even remotely started and then, rather than eighty smaller groups of developers trying to put out similar games simultaneously, you could have between five and ten games in development with larger groups.  The resources would be better, all of the innovation could make it into a game, and the group could incorporate, develop a structure, and then attempt to put out their massive undertaking.

Yes, a break; the MMO industry needs a break, needs to come up with a better formula than programmers killing themselves to attempt to get a game out while living a regular job-having life, as well, and they need more resources than bankrupting their families, nuclear and extended, and friends allows for.

Executives and investors ARE scared to put out money for anything that does not fit within the formula of what works, and rightly so.  Blizzard started off relatively small -I don't remember what their first game was-, they took the revenue from that and built a larger game, and larger, and larger, until they were able to get to WoW, and now every one of them is a multi-millionaire, at least, if not billionaire's.  Again, that's rightly so; they paid their dues, they put out amazing games that worked on lower-end systems, and they moved up.  These fly-by-night dev groups really need to do their studying, in business and history, and work to repeat what Blizzard has done to get where they are.  Businessmen and those with money are not going to step outside of what works to such a degree that what they give out is an automatic loss; unfortunately, most developers (99.95%) couldn't build a proper business plan if it slapped them in the face, don't know what to research, how to follow the clues, and thus they get lost in the funding forest, never to recover.  I will give them one clue, though, that without a proper marketing plan, as Blizzard has, and still uses, to promote WoW, or a whole crap-ton of development money, where they don't have to goe to SOE to get their game published, they may as well hang their hat back up and stay home.

You don't want games that are more niche, because those require more niche players to play them.  What you want is something ground-breaking that everyone can relate to.  You HAVE to have, even with excellent funding and marketing, numbers; butts in the seats that are paying monthly subscriptions or have a ton of excess cash to put into micro's.  If you build a game that is too niche, or if too many games are released in the same time-frame -AHEM!  Can you say ten or fewer new games every five years?- you will NOT make enough money to keep the game afloat.

One up-and-coming game, which the developers really don't call an MMO, though it really can be, is MechWarrior Online.  PGI has absolutely the right idea; give players giant hokey robots to enjoy beating the crap out of each other with, release a minimum viable product -which should be right around the corner as I write this-, and then continue to drop new developments into the game.  Now, I don't play in the BattleTech/ MechWarrior universe, anymore, and that includes in MWO, because I'm sick and tired of Human nature, particularly in the BS that emits from those people I called friend -not everyone in the unit, just a few- and relied on to back me up, and didn't, but I will tell you that PGI is absolutely on the right track, and I think they'll do extremely well.

So, to review... take a break, have enough money, talent, and time, and develop something new and fresh that will interest enough people to keep the game afloat until it makes enough money to break free.  After that, really begin to develop the game you want to develop.

Originally posted by Tithenon

...

Executives and investors ARE scared to put out money for anything that does not fit within the formula of what works, and rightly so. ,,,

I just feel the need to comment that particular line (read his whole post it is interesting but it is too large to quote).

It is indeed risky trying out new things but it is also risky just doing what everyone else does. The MMO world is filled with not so great attempts to copy EQ and Wow even though the devs actually put more money into them than Blizzard and SOE originally put in together.

You wont get rich unless you take chanses. Blizzard got rich out of 2 games really, Starcraft they made themselves and it was actually not a certain money on the bank, they took their own semi successful RTS Warcraft 2 and moved it into space, it outsold their wildest expectations. 

The other even larger risk was buying Condor, a small unheard company and renamed it Blizzard North. With some changes and polish they released their game named as Diablo.

Blizzards story is longer, but few hard heard of them before 1996 and it was 2 chanses that made them large, not betting on safe cards.

Safe cards are sequels and you can go pretty far on that if you own a very successful IP already, if you dont you need to take a chanse if you want to make it big.

I'm taking a break from MMOs soon.  The current crop of games is really lacking.  I'll kill some time with Lego LOTR and then check back in early next year.

The "suits holding the leash" comment is spot on. Obssession with bottom lines is the mortal enemy of creativeness. The Western World has long since passed a pivitol point at which we stifle innovation and invention by insisting that nothing matters next to maximizing profits.

It is killing our society, our political system and finally it is killing our artistry and expressionism.

You are given parameters that some "research" group has laid out for the suits and told that if you won't "create" what they have specified.. you can just go elsewhere.

What has followed is heaps of uninspiring, repetitve ooze.

Even our fun is corrupted.. How long can it continue?

Originally posted by warchant

The "suits holding the leash" comment is spot on. Obssession with bottom lines is the mortal enemy of creativeness. The Western World has long since passed a pivitol point at which we stifle innovation and invention by insisting that nothing matters next to maximizing profits.

It is killing our society, our political system and finally it is killing our artistry and expressionism.

You are given parameters that some "research" group has laid out for the suits and told that if you won't "create" what they have specified.. you can just go elsewhere.

What has followed is heaps of uninspiring, repetitve ooze.

Even our fun is corrupted.. How long can it continue?

Your post kind of makes me think of how it was in the Dark Ages, in which creativity in many forms (such as art and literature) was stifled, and everything kind of halted or took a step backwards, rather than progressing.

Then we had the Renaissance, which brought about lots of new and wondrous things and creativity and originality flowed more freely.

MMOs are pretty much in the Dark Ages. We had some creativity and innovation in the past, and the future was looking hopeful. Then we hit the current period in which profit is law and creativity, originality, and innovation is thrown aside for that profit.

Now we just need something to kickstart our Renaissance. A couple of games may be starting to get those wheels turning, but we arent quite there yet. Hopefully we get something fairly soon that is just a giant middle finger to all of the current norms and things take off from there.

Archeage is the next big thing

WoD = World of Darkness

Chris Roberts' new project "Star Citizen" is exactly what I've been looking for, and is the game that *I* would make if I could make games. I'll be watching this game VERY closely for the next year or so, and have already pledged to show additional interest in this type of project. If companies like EA want to see where and why my money goes to any future games, take a look at what Chris is doing and you'll know.

Innovation, use of technology, breaking the mold, and years of experience draw my attention. Not leaching off of other companies ideas/IPs, cornering the market and forcing players to play a bought out game with little future developement, or filling a game with (real money) auction houses where you simply buy to win.

Thank you Chris Roberts for giving us hope when all seemed lost.

Originally posted by Loke666

 

Exactly. The game might still have many well known features or not, but the important thing is that everything is custom made for the game, not feature X or Y.

WAR was particularly sad for me since the Warhammer fantasy RPG actually already have great mechanics they easily could have reengineered for a MMO and that actually fits the world.

Amost every single MMO since many years feels like someone put together a features list first based on what other successful games have instead of starting from the other side and thinking about what features the game needs to feel just right and as fun as possible.

Another sad example is LOTROs use of healers even if we all know it is against the lore. It was not really despair that killed Boromir, it was being hacked to part by orcs (even if bad morale never is good), and no minstrel could have saved him once the orcs started to hack him up. Turbine could have tried to make something that works with the world but didnt even bother to try.

I very much agree with this line of reasoning, hence why I am so utterly disappointed and boggled by the approach ZOS is taking with TESO.

Actually, no, it makes perfect sense from a viewpoint of some marketing bean-counter who knows nothing about MMORPGs, so I guess it is not boggling or surprising, just sad and disappointing.

I think the next big MMO just might be Archeage. With all the fun goodies they are putting into it and how long it is taking. The fact that koreans test the hell out of a game before it releases too helps because it will be with little bugs. If it isn't Archeage I think there is no hope for another big game anytime soon.

I also think The Repopulation might surprise us as well but time will tell. To be honest I am sick of MMO hopping but games are just lack luster and no thought put in them anymore. They are too easy a monkey could do it and they lack content. EQ1 did it right with AA's more games should do that so when we are max level we feel like we are still achieving stuff.

Weak post by the Op ; In general MMORPGs have been going in the wrong direction for a long time and are no longer what they used to be. I can see a few companies stepping back and focusing on core game element/ Longevity/Gameplay and Community.

Until this re-appears most MMOs aren't really worthy of the title as most at  the moment deliver easy mode combat and little more.

Open World , no instancing and no auto features that go beyond the village wall( 1.e. no global), Auto Features top of the list that should be removed are crafting(one click), Maps, Auction Houses, Mail.

Once thoise 4 are removed you have a lot more reason to form community and talk to people. I could go on but theres no point really.

I will be happy again with MMORPGs and general with games, when they stop releasing clones with different textures as new Games, mostly with less gameplay and features than their originals.

Best example FiFa 2012, FiFa 2013, ... , Asiagrinder A, Asiagrinder B, ... Klick Mouse Death A, Klick Mouse Death B.

The fist Hitman games where nice, KI got better, now, about 10 years later, i find games where you shoot a guard(not killing him), he goes looking around, after 20 sec he turns around: "must have been the rats" and goes back to smoking and chatting with the other guards with the big hole in his shoulder from my hit, a bit disturbing in terms of the skills of the new programmers from Universities and other Facilities.

RPGs where you save the world and nothing changes(newest example -> Skyrim). Or mobs wait for you(static spawns for example). Like in Skyrim the dragons(are there, but wait for you till they attack). Everything is linear, no dragon that destroys a city and change the story this way(much funnier for replays).

MMORPGs gladly go the way to FPS style, but in the same second they forget, that i kinda command the char, as i cannot jump over a big tree or a mountain. FPS style combat is nice, but it shouldn't become a forced Lumberjack Simulator 2012. On the other hand it should be like Fishing Simulator 2012 when i want it(1-2 tries to get the big one in, than maybe i can buy a NPC for that job), or Sailing Simulator, or Deer Hunter 2012, ...

I want to be able to tell my char in a MMO: Hunt some Deers, cook the meat, chop some wood, build a treehouse and live there as a hunter till i pick you up again. Or when i play, pay NPCs to do the work for me(harvesting, ...).

For a 2nd Life MMO, current timesinks in MMOs are fine, but i would rather have entertainment in a game, not the stress to put money every hour into the parking slot of my car, or watch my char 2 hours chop wood, or mine ore. If the game was a Virtual Reality Game with direct connection to the brain, that i could play while sleeping it would be ok.

http://www.twitch.tv/gamebreakertv/b/265695055  ->  I think the Dog is more active as the player here

kinda realistic Sandbox in a fantasy world would be nice, but roaming mobs, weather, living world(where the PC stays ingame even after i log out), ... and such will be damaging ever database i think currently working, as its too much for it.

There is always new projects that could reach the next big MMO. Every designer wants they game become the best game ever.

I think games like Archeage, TESO or citadel of sorcery (talking only about the games I have found recently) could be very good games

I think age of big MMOs has ended. In future there will be tons of MMOs, but they will be more oriented. WoW could get the success it got because people were totally unprepared for such experience (me anyway). Unless some game comes with something along those lines (the only thing comes to my mind is fully virtualized world that you can feel with your own senses) Nothing is gonna be innovative enough to attract such a huge population.

On the other hand there will be lots of MMOs that people will play. Many people have really fun time in GW2, TSW even SWTOR. Many sanbox based MMOs have quite nice stable population. There is lot of space to fill for a game to use some intereting idea and find its audience to be able to survive.

To put it short, there won't be any WoW that everybody and their mothers are playing. Instead people will need to find out what the game is and choose the one that fits them the best. Well I can see analogy to single player games there actually :)

Originally posted by Ozmodan

...a MMO needs, an open world that keeps all areas pertinent to all players( no outleveling an area) and allows non instanced housing, has no classes, and has an economy based on crafting...  

I couldn't possibly agree more.

Now,  how to do it?