Originally posted by lamsai

Originally posted by Istavaan
It's still an end game raiding mmo like wow. if they focused more on invasions instead of trying to be wow it would have been so much better.

not true you can get end game gear with the inscribed sourcestones from rifts and zone events from the epic planar gear merchant.it is just a huge time sink compared to raiding

People remember back when they played Rift back in it's early days, probably even before EI, and think that's what end game is like now.

Originally posted by Istavaan
It's still an end game raiding mmo like wow. if they focused more on invasions instead of trying to be wow it would have been so much better.

Trion has actually been the innovator in raid fights recently. Several recent WoW raids have had fights were pretty dam close to fights in Rift raids released months earlier. The Trion devs have been nothing short of amazing on thier fairly small budget. I am looking forward to the expansion.  

Originally posted by CujoSWAoA

WoW has a spell over a lot of people who don't even know Rift exists.  People who don't come to this website and never will come to this website.  Who don't thirst for gaming news or information on "other titles".  Who have no interest in trying something else...  I've witnessed it on a personal level in several different individuals.

Rift will never have that.

And thats WoW's unfair advantage.

I totally agree that this happens on a moment-by-moment basis, but I also think that over the entire course of an individual's gaming career, it is inevitable that every single person takes a break from thier MMO of choice or seeks to leave for good.  Then, perhaps, during that time, they look elsewhere.  My honest guess would be that exactly ZERO percent of players who played WoW at launch have played consistently straight through to present day.  

Sure, when players are in the middle of that period where they are utterly engrossed in WoW, they wouldn't evne consider looking elsewhere.  But that period does not last forever for anyone.  And the same was true for popular MMOs that preceded WoW. 

If RIFT improved the combat to the level of fun and speed/skill requirement of something like GW2 or TERA then it would probably be a game I'd go back to without question.

As it stands now (at least the last time I played Rift a month or so ago) the combat is slower and more tediusly boring than even TOR, which says a lot because TOR combat brought new meaning to the term "boring."

RIFT needs a major Combat Upgrade - keep the Trinity and role based combat but for the love of God speed it up and remove the bloat of having 8 bars full of "use once in a great while" skills.

It's 2012, not 2004.

Originally posted by GeezerGamer

Originally posted by lamsai

Originally posted by Istavaan
It's still an end game raiding mmo like wow. if they focused more on invasions instead of trying to be wow it would have been so much better.

not true you can get end game gear with the inscribed sourcestones from rifts and zone events from the epic planar gear merchant.it is just a huge time sink compared to raiding

People remember back when they played Rift back in it's early days, probably even before EI, and think that's what end game is like now.

And then there are people who think the above comment is anything different than WoW.  Where do you think the idea for inscirbed sourcestones came from?  Valor Points.

Originally posted by GeezerGamer

Originally posted by lamsai

Originally posted by Istavaan
It's still an end game raiding mmo like wow. if they focused more on invasions instead of trying to be wow it would have been so much better.

not true you can get end game gear with the inscribed sourcestones from rifts and zone events from the epic planar gear merchant.it is just a huge time sink compared to raiding

People remember back when they played Rift back in it's early days, probably even before EI, and think that's what end game is like now.

Yeah that must be it, people with a distant one year old memory.  You talk like it was so long ago.

Even though they throw the ISS crowd a few bones under a huge grind (way way more than raiding for equivalent), it's still second servings compared to the raid stuff.  All of the very best stuff and real progression is locked squarely behind raiding even now.

If its been a year since you played rift youve missed about 7 major updates to the game.

Originally posted by Foomerang

If its been a year since you played rift youve missed about 7 major updates to the game.

 

1.6 - Major (EI) Nov 2011

1.7 - minor (PvP rank adjustments, weddings) Feb 2012

1.8 - major (ID, Survival/Fishing) April 2012

1.9 - major (conquest, sliver, mentoring) June 2012.  released too soon as conquest causes major issues for server performance

1.10 minor - (Defiant and Guardians can be friends) - september 2012

1.11 expansion pre patch - (storm legion talents, a storm legion dungeon...WoW would call this 2.0.1) today

so, 3 major, 2 minor.

Originally posted by Torvaldr

Originally posted by GeezerGamer

Originally posted by lamsai

Originally posted by Istavaan
It's still an end game raiding mmo like wow. if they focused more on invasions instead of trying to be wow it would have been so much better.

not true you can get end game gear with the inscribed sourcestones from rifts and zone events from the epic planar gear merchant.it is just a huge time sink compared to raiding

People remember back when they played Rift back in it's early days, probably even before EI, and think that's what end game is like now.

Yeah that must be it, people with a distant one year old memory.  You talk like it was so long ago.

Even though they throw the ISS crowd a few bones under a huge grind (way way more than raiding for equivalent), it's still second servings compared to the raid stuff.  All of the very best stuff and real progression is locked squarely behind raiding even now.

Well, maybe I should have been clear. It's not about time, it's about the content added (In such a short period of time)

As far as the BiS raid stuff. So what? I'm one of those ISS people. That's how I've gotten my gear. And for the content I do, I'm as good as any top tier geared Raider. You think they kill mobs in Experts any faster than I do? No. You think the fact that their 2 shotting a level 50 standard world mob does more DPS than my 2 shotting a standard level 50 world mob makes much difference? No. The only place their top tier gear has any weight is in the top tier raids. Everywhere else, it's just overkill and provides little if any benefit.

Originally posted by Nadia

Originally posted by umcorian

"This is going to be a short column because my point is pretty simple: Trion Worlds’ Rift, especially with Storm Legion coming out in November, is surpassing World of Warcraft at its own game."

Holy macrol... is that a bold statement. One I cannot possibly disagree with more.

Instant adventures, and a move toward the sandbox? WoW has had Dungeon Finder since WOTLK. That was the first "instant adventure". Now, with MoP, it has scenarios too which are exactly what Instant Adventures are. I don't see how that's beating WoW at its own game. WoW has adapted quite well, incorperating everything Rift has done well and improving it.

both of your examples are instanced - closed off from other players

 

Instant Adventures are *not* instanced

http://rift.zam.com/wiki/Instant_Adventure_%28Rift%29

Like an instance, you queue up and you get teleported to the target zone. It is not an instance of the zone so there are still other things happening around you but you and your raid will have a series of objectives that run you all over the zone. As you finish each you get quest XP (3,540 per quest) and a new quest. The number of mobs you are asked to kill scales up as more players join the raid. Each quest can also take place in several different areas.

 

I still don't see why IAs are discussed so much.  Do people that play Rift actually enjoy them on a semi-regular basis?  Its perfect for when you have 20 minutes to kill and want to do something fast, but they get old FAST (to me anyway) if you do more than one or two in a row.

And while scenarios are closer to chronicles than IAs, they are something Blizzard is experimenting with.  They have already said that they could be scaled to provide content for 40+ players which to me sounds like dropping hints of things to come.

Scenarios are kind of inbetween solo play and dungeons.  Some are amusing, but they dont have lasting value as of yet.  System has potential though (much like chronicles)

uuuh an mmo with housing! i totally see why you think adding a feature that daoc already had like 10 years ago makes some unbalanced game with completely boring pvp surpasses wow.

uh wait, i dont. sorry, my mistake

Originally posted by strangiato2112

Originally posted by Nadia

Originally posted by umcorian

"This is going to be a short column because my point is pretty simple: Trion Worlds’ Rift, especially with Storm Legion coming out in November, is surpassing World of Warcraft at its own game."

Holy macrol... is that a bold statement. One I cannot possibly disagree with more.

Instant adventures, and a move toward the sandbox? WoW has had Dungeon Finder since WOTLK. That was the first "instant adventure". Now, with MoP, it has scenarios too which are exactly what Instant Adventures are. I don't see how that's beating WoW at its own game. WoW has adapted quite well, incorperating everything Rift has done well and improving it.

both of your examples are instanced - closed off from other players

 

Instant Adventures are *not* instanced

http://rift.zam.com/wiki/Instant_Adventure_%28Rift%29

Like an instance, you queue up and you get teleported to the target zone. It is not an instance of the zone so there are still other things happening around you but you and your raid will have a series of objectives that run you all over the zone. As you finish each you get quest XP (3,540 per quest) and a new quest. The number of mobs you are asked to kill scales up as more players join the raid. Each quest can also take place in several different areas.

 

I still don't see why IAs are discussed so much.  Do people that play Rift actually enjoy them on a semi-regular basis?  Its perfect for when you have 20 minutes to kill and want to do something fast, but they get old FAST (to me anyway) if you do more than one or two in a row.

 

And while scenarios are closer to chronicles than IAs, they are something Blizzard is experimenting with.  They have already said that they could be scaled to provide content for 40+ players which to me sounds like dropping hints of things to come.

 

Scenarios are kind of inbetween solo play and dungeons.  Some are amusing, but they dont have lasting value as of yet.  System has potential though (much like chronicles)

IAs are a good source of XP for Planar Atunemt as well as a decent way to accumulate ISS between Zone Events. I can usually rotate through zones to do them so it doesn't become so repeative, but yeah, they do get old after a while, But I that's the nature of MMOs in general where everything has to cycle.

Originally posted by GeezerGamer

Originally posted by Torvaldr

Originally posted by GeezerGamer

Originally posted by lamsai

Originally posted by Istavaan
It's still an end game raiding mmo like wow. if they focused more on invasions instead of trying to be wow it would have been so much better.

not true you can get end game gear with the inscribed sourcestones from rifts and zone events from the epic planar gear merchant.it is just a huge time sink compared to raiding

People remember back when they played Rift back in it's early days, probably even before EI, and think that's what end game is like now.

Yeah that must be it, people with a distant one year old memory.  You talk like it was so long ago.

Even though they throw the ISS crowd a few bones under a huge grind (way way more than raiding for equivalent), it's still second servings compared to the raid stuff.  All of the very best stuff and real progression is locked squarely behind raiding even now.

Well, maybe I should have been clear. It's not about time, it's about the content added (In such a short period of time)

As far as the BiS raid stuff. So what? I'm one of those ISS people. That's how I've gotten my gear. And for the content I do, I'm as good as any top tier geared Raider. You think they kill mobs in Experts any faster than I do? No. You think the fact that their 2 shotting a level 50 standard world mob does more DPS than my 2 shotting a standard level 50 world mob makes much difference? No. The only place their top tier gear has any weight is in the top tier raids. Everywhere else, it's just overkill and provides little if any benefit.

No, I don't think players in bis do better.  I know they do better.  Run master modes and it's easy to tell.  Run regular content and you might need a parser, but the better geared person is going to do things a moderately geared player can't as easily.

On top of that the grind for ISS items is so insane compared to dungeon running that ISS players are rarely close to being geared out.

All of that doesn't matter though. It *is* a raiding game at the end of the day.  Maybe you're happy with second hand progression, but I'm not.  And that is what the raiding beef always boils down to.

I played WoW longer, but I never really enjoyed the game.   I never cared for questing to level up.

Rift was very similar... I did enjoy the game a little more but primarily because I did not really quest...I just did the instances.. of course nobody was ever LFG so it got boring.

Same thing with SWTOR... I almost only did  instances to group to level.. but again minimal grouping.

If I had to say of the three WoW games/clones I did enjoy rift the most.

Originally posted by Torvaldr

Originally posted by GeezerGamer

Originally posted by Torvaldr

Originally posted by GeezerGamer

Originally posted by lamsai

Originally posted by Istavaan
It's still an end game raiding mmo like wow. if they focused more on invasions instead of trying to be wow it would have been so much better.

not true you can get end game gear with the inscribed sourcestones from rifts and zone events from the epic planar gear merchant.it is just a huge time sink compared to raiding

People remember back when they played Rift back in it's early days, probably even before EI, and think that's what end game is like now.

Yeah that must be it, people with a distant one year old memory.  You talk like it was so long ago.

Even though they throw the ISS crowd a few bones under a huge grind (way way more than raiding for equivalent), it's still second servings compared to the raid stuff.  All of the very best stuff and real progression is locked squarely behind raiding even now.

Well, maybe I should have been clear. It's not about time, it's about the content added (In such a short period of time)

As far as the BiS raid stuff. So what? I'm one of those ISS people. That's how I've gotten my gear. And for the content I do, I'm as good as any top tier geared Raider. You think they kill mobs in Experts any faster than I do? No. You think the fact that their 2 shotting a level 50 standard world mob does more DPS than my 2 shotting a standard level 50 world mob makes much difference? No. The only place their top tier gear has any weight is in the top tier raids. Everywhere else, it's just overkill and provides little if any benefit.

No, I don't think players in bis do better.  I know they do better.  Run master modes and it's easy to tell.  Run regular content and you might need a parser, but the better geared person is going to do things a moderately geared player can't as easily.

On top of that the grind for ISS items is so insane compared to dungeon running that ISS players are rarely close to being geared out.

All of that doesn't matter though. It *is* a raiding game at the end of the day.  Maybe you're happy with second hand progression, but I'm not.  And that is what the raiding beef always boils down to.

So this is really about the fact that other people are taking advantage of opportunities that you dont't and they reap the reward that you choose not to. And now you feel you can't compete equally in the other areas and that bothers you.

I don't share that sentiment, but I think I understand it. And I guess from that perspective, GW2 really does offer an alternative for you.

But I have always felt that  MMORPGs were about equal opprotunity. And that they are about making your own way and building something.

Originally posted by GeezerGamer

Originally posted by Torvaldr

No, I don't think players in bis do better.  I know they do better.  Run master modes and it's easy to tell.  Run regular content and you might need a parser, but the better geared person is going to do things a moderately geared player can't as easily.

On top of that the grind for ISS items is so insane compared to dungeon running that ISS players are rarely close to being geared out.

All of that doesn't matter though. It *is* a raiding game at the end of the day.  Maybe you're happy with second hand progression, but I'm not.  And that is what the raiding beef always boils down to.

So this is really about the fact that other people are taking advantage of opportunities that you dont't and they reap the reward that you choose not to. And now you feel you can't compete equally in the other areas and that bothers you.

I don't share that sentiment, but I think I understand it. And I guess from that perspective, GW2 really does offer an alternative for you.

But I have always felt that  MMORPGs were about equal opprotunity. And that they are about making your own way and building something.

It's not about missed opportunities or envy at all.  I did take advantage of the opportunities.  I've raided and got my gear and I've ground out ISS.  That was just to point out that the game is, at its core, still totally raid centric.  I have lots of friends who raid and like that, but I don't anymore.

GW2 does offer me a raid free game play and I like that.  I also like item and stat progression games, just not via raids.  Progression is fun.  I like the illusion of getting more powerful and marking achievements of all sorts, just not in raids anymore.  The ISS grind, crafting, and other play avenues should offer the opportunity to make your way and build the character, *your* way.

To me, that really would have passed what WoW and EQ2 (I kind of see RIFT as a blend of those two games maybe with a little EQ thrown in to boot) have to offer.

Originally posted by Torvaldr

It's not about missed opportunities or envy at all.  I did take advantage of the opportunities.  I've raided and got my gear and I've ground out ISS.  That was just to point out that the game is, at its core, still totally raid centric.  I have lots of friends who raid and like that, but I don't anymore.

GW2 does offer me a raid free game play and I like that.  I also like item and stat progression games, just not via raids.  Progression is fun.  I like the illusion of getting more powerful and marking achievements of all sorts, just not in raids anymore.  The ISS grind, crafting, and other play avenues should offer the opportunity to make your way and build the character, *your* way.

To me, that really would have passed what WoW and EQ2 (I kind of see RIFT as a blend of those two games maybe with a little EQ thrown in to boot) have to offer.

Im not quite understanding.

You want your illusion of getting more powerful, and Rift does have a gear grind for non raiders to give you just that. GW2 may be raid free, but both WoW and Rift offer this sort of thing to non raiders better than GW2 does.  both games do have a non-raid oriented gear progression.

Now if you are upset because you have to raid to get the best gear, well raiding does take the most coordination (running a raid can be the most stressful thing in the world).  The rewards *should* be better for raiders.

Or the other side is that there is this gear progression for non-raiders, butnowhere to use it in.  Master Modes seem like they were scrapped, so ther eis very little point in getting more powerful since all it does is remove what little challenge Rift has to begin with.

i would love to see 5 WoW players queue up for a heroic and get teleported into Rifts mastermode DD/CR, would make for an interesting 4 hours.

in saying that, i have been leveling a hunter in wow for the past week after getting a sweet deal on MoP and i have to say, why cant people just shut up and play both, they are both alot of fun, i just think of Rift as an upgraded/refined version of WoW.

Originally posted by Genexis

 

in saying that, i have been leveling a hunter in wow for the past week after getting a sweet deal on MoP and i have to say, why cant people just shut up and play both, they are both alot of fun, i just think of Rift as an upgraded/refined version of WoW.

Its not upgraded or refined, just another take on the genre is all.  But you are right.  No reason to not play both.  And there is plenty of room in the MMO space for both games.  

Originally posted by MMOGamer71

WoW is #1 (subjective) because:

1)  Right place, right time.

2)  There are players that actually think WoW is/was the first/only MMO.

 

 

Ironic the main issues with WoW is server disconnects and 132 errors.........see the official forums.

Agreed. And a good majority of the players would rather complain constantly about DCs and nothing to do instead of growing a pair and trying something new. The game that seemed to draw the most attention away (because of its franchise title) was a huge disappointment, so those who actually tried it go back and pretend nothing else exists.

There are so many other developers who deserve so much more attention than Blizzard, it's quite a drag to see any game that would've been/was good drift away without much of the community seeing its ideas and potential.

I think this line of thinking may be what eventually brings MMOs down.