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Guild Wars 2

Guild Wars 2 

General Discussion  » 3 a.m. It hit me what bothers me lol

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220 posts found
  Aerowyn

Novice Member

Joined: 2/20/12
Posts: 7969

10/16/12 3:51:11 PM#141
Originally posted by Randayn
Originally posted by Aerowyn
Originally posted by Randayn
 

It's not about that.  It's not personal either, although you've probably seen me get hot-headed...it will never be personal...that would be stupid of me.  

It's about the direction of the MMO industry and the fact that I disagree with it.  I believe that the direction is headed toward 3 different things that will ultimately (and already have) dumbed down and watered down the experience:

1. Single Player experience from start to finish - dont mind solo'ing...I love it, but Im still a big believer that every game should have parts in the leveling conquest that force you to team up...in the open world and in dungeons

2.  Catering to the masses rather than retaining the integrity of the genre

3. making combat preperation, skills and combat itself feel more like an FPS than an MMORPG.  That's what PVP is for...not PVE...I dont want to twitch all over the place.  I want to prepare for battle so I dont have to twitch when I get there.

 

But I am serious about making through the entire game....choose the class and race...I'll do it.

 

just odd because most games that came out in  the last decade follow this(aside from maybe #3) yet you single out GW2 

I totally agree with you there.  Im not singling out anything.  Im pointing out the giant...why worry about the dwarf?  

thought wow was the giant? according to these forums GW2 is just the next one to fade into the darkness so why worry?

I angered the clerk in a clothing shop today. She asked me what size I was and I said actual, because I am not to scale. I like vending machines 'cause snacks are better when they fall. If I buy a candy bar at a store, oftentimes, I will drop it... so that it achieves its maximum flavor potential. --Mitch Hedberg

  User Deleted
10/16/12 3:53:31 PM#142
Originally posted by Aerowyn
Originally posted by Randayn
Originally posted by Aerowyn
Originally posted by Randayn
 

It's not about that.  It's not personal either, although you've probably seen me get hot-headed...it will never be personal...that would be stupid of me.  

It's about the direction of the MMO industry and the fact that I disagree with it.  I believe that the direction is headed toward 3 different things that will ultimately (and already have) dumbed down and watered down the experience:

1. Single Player experience from start to finish - dont mind solo'ing...I love it, but Im still a big believer that every game should have parts in the leveling conquest that force you to team up...in the open world and in dungeons

2.  Catering to the masses rather than retaining the integrity of the genre

3. making combat preperation, skills and combat itself feel more like an FPS than an MMORPG.  That's what PVP is for...not PVE...I dont want to twitch all over the place.  I want to prepare for battle so I dont have to twitch when I get there.

 

But I am serious about making through the entire game....choose the class and race...I'll do it.

 

just odd because most games that came out in  the last decade follow this(aside from maybe #3) yet you single out GW2 

I totally agree with you there.  Im not singling out anything.  Im pointing out the giant...why worry about the dwarf?  

thought wow was the giant? according to these forums GW2 is just the next one to fade into the darkness so why worry?

I don't think that at all.  Im angry that it's so popular (and I wont ever say it's not), because I believe it sets a bad precedent for the direction of future MMORPG's.  that's my gripe.  I do think it's a very generic game, from what I've played though.  But that is bound to happen when you try to cater to the masses...you must dumb and water down.

  Nadia

Elite Member

Joined: 7/26/03
Posts: 11429

10/16/12 4:08:02 PM#143
Originally posted by Randayn
Originally posted by Nadia

dungeons in most mmos are for 5 to 6 players

you havent demonstrated how the trinity in a 5man dungeon is more strategic than nontrinity

What I've demonstrated, time and time again, is that developers cannot develop a rich and deep strategy in a dungeon setting if there is no trinity to base it on.  So, in a way, inadvertantly, yes, it does take more strategy and preperation with a trinity, but only if the devs are worth their salt.

That's been my argument from the start.

My other argument that is seperate from this, is twitch vs. preperation.  That has nothing to do with my dungeon/raid/trinity argument.  Please don't mix the two together.

instead of saying time and time again -- give me a 5man dungeon example

 

the critical difference between trinity and no trinity is   Taunt or lack of it

I disagree that mmos that use taunt make a game more complex and strategic

 

instanced raids, as far as im concerned, are 20 man dungeons and GW2 does not have those

there are no instanced raids in GW2 at this time

  Gaia_Hunter

Elite Member

Joined: 5/04/12
Posts: 2590

10/16/12 4:16:06 PM#144
Originally posted by GeezerGamer
Originally posted by fundayz
Originally posted by ZigZags

The game is WoW without the difficulty and sense of achievement. That's why. Like i've said 10000 times before. Its a theme park released in an age where there are already better theme parks...

 GW2 is like the Knotts Berry Farms of MMOs. It sucks and Id rather just go to Disneyland.

You forgot the part where GW2 plays nothing like WoW or other WoW-clones. Seriously, have you even played the game?

Or maye he's thinking that components such as Dodge really aren't all that innovative.

GW2: 

Player runs across a random mob and enters combat. Player deals some damage then notices the mob's cast bar climbing. Player instinctively hit's "Dodge" and avoids taking any damage from Mob's cast. "GW2 combat is so AWESOME!"

WoW:

Player runs across a random mob and enters combat. Player deals some damage then notices the mob's cast bar climbing. Player instinctively hit's "interrupt" and avoids taking any damage from Mob's cast. "WoW combat really sux!"

"Cast bar"?

In GW2?

Do you guys play the game or just make up stuff?

Currently playing: GW2
Cooperative (semi cooperative)board games you should check: Pandemic, Sentinels of the Multiverse, Eldritch Horror, Descent 2.0,Level 7 Omega Protocol, Last Night on Earth

  slicknslim88

Novice Member

Joined: 8/08/11
Posts: 400

10/16/12 4:53:24 PM#145
Originally posted by GeezerGamer
Originally posted by slicknslim88
Originally posted by GeezerGamer
Originally posted by Aerowyn
Originally posted by GeezerGamer
 

I've explained it. The implementation chosen requires each player be fully aware of every other player in the group. That's for the dungeons. As group sizes would increase, so would the demand for awareness placed on each player in the team. The burden would exceed the abilities of the average gamer. It's just info overload. That's why we have roles in traditional groups. I don't have a way for the non trinity system to work. I have a hard time seeing it, but I'll accept it's possible. But of what i've seen in it's current implementation, I think we are at about the limit of what a coordinated group can be before that coordination breaks down. And the evidence is present. Look at the big raid fights. They are lacklustre at best.

think about this for a second.. look at the 5 man dungeons in this game currently and how many issues people so stuck on trinity games are having.. now imagine if they made the open world bosses complex encounters people would be having a field day as they could not complete the content.. open world stuff should be more accessable this way imho.. But now saying that look what happens once a good group knows the dungeons in this game... they are blazing through them in 30 min which would take others hours to get through... now look at the scenario i typed above why would something like that not work with a well coordinated raid in this type of game?

also i'd try the dragon fights now when the areas are not completely oversaturated with people like they were couple weeks ago they are a LOT more fun

Your key words are "good group" That's where it falls apart. Hell it's hard enough in the trinity. Much less a game with increased siuational awareness requirements. I think it's more the human factor when I am talking about the least common denominator. Most just won't get it

 

I'm having trouble with you thoughts on this.  But shouldn't a "good group" be the ones that succeed in ANY dungeon, even raid dungeons for trinity games?  I'm not talking about a "great group" or an "amazing group" or a "flawless group" here.  But I'm talking about a group with basic knowledge of the encounters who are all responsive and aware of the fights to a degree that a "good" player will have.  Not an average or weak player.  Because those players should not be able to get through the tough stuff in any MMO game, or any game actually.  I believe that if a player wants to succeed in an MMO, or any game for that matter, they should at least take some time to study how the game works, such as encounters in a dungeon, and I'm not talking like ridiculous amounts, but gathering a basic understanding of the game should be key to succeeding in it.  I would be highly highly dissapointed in any game that I can just jump in and without much effort at all, breeze my way through it...*cough* Diablo 3 *cough*.  

So your saying that because MOST players would not have the proper situational awareness requirements that a dungeon with more than 5 player cap (a raid dungeon) in GW2 would fail?  That tells me a couple things.  First off, your  pretty much insulting gamers intelligence on a pretty large scale (although there are some cases where I wouldn't dissagree with you on this point, lol)  and secondly, that you believe that difficult games should not be made because the majority of players wouldn't be able to complete them because they lack the "good player" quality to do it.  And that's just a silly notion in it's own right.

GW2's lack of the trinity system is a breakthrough in MMO gaming, and this being the first game of it's kind, I can understand some skepticism in believeing that it can achieve the things that the holy trinity has achieved.  But to believe that it CANNOT achieve those things straight up, is downright naive and incredibly close minded.

In response to your 1st paragraph, I am not talking about individual players, I am talking about the law of averages. When you PUG dungeons, you are going to get bad players. That's just the way it is. Now, at the same time, and historically in games such as WoW, time does prove to overcome this as even the worst players eventually either learn what to do, or just outgear the dungeons. But in GW2, that 2nd option is not possible.

No, I'm not saying most players. I'm saying the "One you got stuck with in your group that doesn't" situation that always seems to happen in PUGs.

I would say the GW2 system is a break away, not a break through. You can call me closed minded, but to me I've seen the effect. It's very limited. If I were to say that a non-trinity system will never work, then sure, that's closed minded, but I'm not saying that. What I am saying is GW2's system is limited, it's an observation.  I have said before, Look at the lack luster boss fights. Look at one of the biggest complaints about the dungeon system in the past 6 weeks of threads here, many have said the same thing.  The fact that you disagree doesn't make me any more or less ignorant of any "facts".  The non-trinity system of GW2, did not go over as well with the "masses" as was previously hoped.

How is this a bad thing??  Overtime the community learns to overcome difficult obstacles using their skill instead of using whatever great gear they can scrounge together.  All positive there.  Also, due to the fact that the dungeons are actually difficult in this game, it gives people incentives to be social and gather friends to do a dungeon instead of a PUG.  Also, a positive thing.

Your only argument that your providing that the system is limited is that it's a non-trinity game, and that people on the forums complain about the dungeons.  The only reason people complain about the dungeon's is because they get their asses kicked and instead of learning why they are constantly dying and losing, they decide it must be the game's fault.  "It's a new system, it's the system that's flawed, not me, I'm the best player in the world!"  I know this because people who have actually learned the dungeons have a great time playing them, and die far less frequently.  And people who die frequently in my groups always play the same record "omg, this game's system is so broken!" even though I'm watching how terrible they are playing.

Judging from your argument's so far, your taking all your facts just from what you hear on these forums instead of asking what people think who are playing the game.  Oh, you can't ask them, because they are all enjoying it right now.  The massive amounts of great reviews are also an indication of just how much the "masses" "dislike" this game.

  fundayz

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 10/14/10
Posts: 471

10/16/12 5:10:41 PM#146
Originally posted by Randayn

when I played the game, which I did for over 100 hours....I felt like I was playing WoW part 2 with watered down talent tree and being forced to switch out to my gun rather than just have it hotkeyed to pull a mob.  The story was just as generic and the characters were just as fantasy....the quests were not as good as WoW's quests....yes, DE's and Hearts are frickin quests.  please stop thinking they are something else.

WoW was your first MMO wasn't it? Everything you claim makes a game "play like WoW" has been around since Everquest.

What you mean to say is GW2 plays like an MMORPG, which is obvious since it IS an MMORPG.

 

Originally posted by Randayn

I don't think that at all.  Im angry that it's so popular (and I wont ever say it's not), because I believe it sets a bad precedent for the direction of future MMORPG's.  that's my gripe.  I do think it's a very generic game, from what I've played though.  But that is bound to happen when you try to cater to the masses...you must dumb and water down.

Sorry but GW2 is anything but generic. What other MMO have you played that incorporates all, or even most, of the same gameplay mechanics as GW2?

GW2 doesn't have dedicated roles, it doesn't have quest hubs, it doesn't have gear-based progression, it has automatic level scaling, it has content that scales to the number of players, it has a global(rather than server-based) economy, it has PvP that is completely independent of gear, it has 3-faction large scale PvP when every MMO in the past decade has had only 2-factions.

Sure, a few games have had a few of the above characteristics, but no game to date has incorporated all of the features GW2 has brought to the table.

If you want to see what a generic game looks like just take a look at SWTOR and WAR. From everything you say it sounds like you are just tired of fantasy MMOs.

 

  stevebmbsqd

Novice Member

Joined: 9/26/09
Posts: 457

"Evolution thru Revolution"

10/16/12 5:16:44 PM#147
Originally posted by slicknslim88
Originally posted by GeezerGamer
Originally posted by slicknslim88
Originally posted by GeezerGamer
Originally posted by Aerowyn
Originally posted by GeezerGamer
 

I've explained it. The implementation chosen requires each player be fully aware of every other player in the group. That's for the dungeons. As group sizes would increase, so would the demand for awareness placed on each player in the team. The burden would exceed the abilities of the average gamer. It's just info overload. That's why we have roles in traditional groups. I don't have a way for the non trinity system to work. I have a hard time seeing it, but I'll accept it's possible. But of what i've seen in it's current implementation, I think we are at about the limit of what a coordinated group can be before that coordination breaks down. And the evidence is present. Look at the big raid fights. They are lacklustre at best.

think about this for a second.. look at the 5 man dungeons in this game currently and how many issues people so stuck on trinity games are having.. now imagine if they made the open world bosses complex encounters people would be having a field day as they could not complete the content.. open world stuff should be more accessable this way imho.. But now saying that look what happens once a good group knows the dungeons in this game... they are blazing through them in 30 min which would take others hours to get through... now look at the scenario i typed above why would something like that not work with a well coordinated raid in this type of game?

also i'd try the dragon fights now when the areas are not completely oversaturated with people like they were couple weeks ago they are a LOT more fun

Your key words are "good group" That's where it falls apart. Hell it's hard enough in the trinity. Much less a game with increased siuational awareness requirements. I think it's more the human factor when I am talking about the least common denominator. Most just won't get it

 

I'm having trouble with you thoughts on this.  But shouldn't a "good group" be the ones that succeed in ANY dungeon, even raid dungeons for trinity games?  I'm not talking about a "great group" or an "amazing group" or a "flawless group" here.  But I'm talking about a group with basic knowledge of the encounters who are all responsive and aware of the fights to a degree that a "good" player will have.  Not an average or weak player.  Because those players should not be able to get through the tough stuff in any MMO game, or any game actually.  I believe that if a player wants to succeed in an MMO, or any game for that matter, they should at least take some time to study how the game works, such as encounters in a dungeon, and I'm not talking like ridiculous amounts, but gathering a basic understanding of the game should be key to succeeding in it.  I would be highly highly dissapointed in any game that I can just jump in and without much effort at all, breeze my way through it...*cough* Diablo 3 *cough*.  

So your saying that because MOST players would not have the proper situational awareness requirements that a dungeon with more than 5 player cap (a raid dungeon) in GW2 would fail?  That tells me a couple things.  First off, your  pretty much insulting gamers intelligence on a pretty large scale (although there are some cases where I wouldn't dissagree with you on this point, lol)  and secondly, that you believe that difficult games should not be made because the majority of players wouldn't be able to complete them because they lack the "good player" quality to do it.  And that's just a silly notion in it's own right.

GW2's lack of the trinity system is a breakthrough in MMO gaming, and this being the first game of it's kind, I can understand some skepticism in believeing that it can achieve the things that the holy trinity has achieved.  But to believe that it CANNOT achieve those things straight up, is downright naive and incredibly close minded.

In response to your 1st paragraph, I am not talking about individual players, I am talking about the law of averages. When you PUG dungeons, you are going to get bad players. That's just the way it is. Now, at the same time, and historically in games such as WoW, time does prove to overcome this as even the worst players eventually either learn what to do, or just outgear the dungeons. But in GW2, that 2nd option is not possible.

No, I'm not saying most players. I'm saying the "One you got stuck with in your group that doesn't" situation that always seems to happen in PUGs.

I would say the GW2 system is a break away, not a break through. You can call me closed minded, but to me I've seen the effect. It's very limited. If I were to say that a non-trinity system will never work, then sure, that's closed minded, but I'm not saying that. What I am saying is GW2's system is limited, it's an observation.  I have said before, Look at the lack luster boss fights. Look at one of the biggest complaints about the dungeon system in the past 6 weeks of threads here, many have said the same thing.  The fact that you disagree doesn't make me any more or less ignorant of any "facts".  The non-trinity system of GW2, did not go over as well with the "masses" as was previously hoped.

How is this a bad thing??  Overtime the community learns to overcome difficult obstacles using their skill instead of using whatever great gear they can scrounge together.  All positive there.  Also, due to the fact that the dungeons are actually difficult in this game, it gives people incentives to be social and gather friends to do a dungeon instead of a PUG.  Also, a positive thing.

Your only argument that your providing that the system is limited is that it's a non-trinity game, and that people on the forums complain about the dungeons.  The only reason people complain about the dungeon's is because they get their asses kicked and instead of learning why they are constantly dying and losing, they decide it must be the game's fault.  "It's a new system, it's the system that's flawed, not me, I'm the best player in the world!"  I know this because people who have actually learned the dungeons have a great time playing them, and die far less frequently.  And people who die frequently in my groups always play the same record "omg, this game's system is so broken!" even though I'm watching how terrible they are playing.

Judging from your argument's so far, your taking all your facts just from what you hear on these forums instead of asking what people think who are playing the game.  Oh, you can't ask them, because they are all enjoying it right now.  The massive amounts of great reviews are also an indication of just how much the "masses" "dislike" this game.

Quite frankly, the majority of those reviews were written in the first few weeks. There is a large amount of people all over the internet who are complaining that GW2 is too repetitive and gets boring quickly. Reviews don't hold weight when given after a few weeks of play when the game is an MMO that is designed to maintain a persons interests over a long period of time. I am not saying GW2 is a bad game, just that many of the ideas may have been better in theory rather than implementation. A lot of people thought they wanted a "change", but in the end, that wasn't the case. Often things are a certain way for a reason.  I am not saying that new things shouldn't be tried, but maybe such drastic changes to mechanics and gameplay on all levels may have been too much.

  Aerowyn

Novice Member

Joined: 2/20/12
Posts: 7969

10/16/12 5:22:24 PM#148
Originally posted by stevebmbsqd
 

Quite frankly, the majority of those reviews were written in the first few weeks. There is a large amount of people all over the internet who are complaining that GW2 is too repetitive and gets boring quickly. Reviews don't hold weight when given after a few weeks of play when the game is an MMO that is designed to maintain a persons interests over a long period of time. I am not saying GW2 is a bad game, just that many of the ideas may have been better in theory rather than implementation. A lot of people thought they wanted a "change", but in the end, that wasn't the case. Often things are a certain way for a reason.  I am not saying that new things shouldn't be tried, but maybe such drastic changes to mechanics and gameplay on all levels may have been too much.

people don't know what they want and that's the problem.. everyone wants something differn't so you basically just need to follow whatever game has systems that interest you..

Also your last line is funny since i keep seeing all these wow clone posts pop up now also.. never seen such bipolar opinions from people on a game before. Usually it's just I hate this game I love this game stuff for MMOs.. But for GW2 it's a hate x because it's too hard and the next thread is I hate x because it's to easy. Seen almost every complaint about this game have a thread with someone complaining about the same thing but exact opposite of what was just recently complained about.

I angered the clerk in a clothing shop today. She asked me what size I was and I said actual, because I am not to scale. I like vending machines 'cause snacks are better when they fall. If I buy a candy bar at a store, oftentimes, I will drop it... so that it achieves its maximum flavor potential. --Mitch Hedberg

  halflife25

Apprentice Member

Joined: 9/13/12
Posts: 787

10/16/12 5:27:35 PM#149
Originally posted by Aerowyn
Originally posted by stevebmbsqd
 

Quite frankly, the majority of those reviews were written in the first few weeks. There is a large amount of people all over the internet who are complaining that GW2 is too repetitive and gets boring quickly. Reviews don't hold weight when given after a few weeks of play when the game is an MMO that is designed to maintain a persons interests over a long period of time. I am not saying GW2 is a bad game, just that many of the ideas may have been better in theory rather than implementation. A lot of people thought they wanted a "change", but in the end, that wasn't the case. Often things are a certain way for a reason.  I am not saying that new things shouldn't be tried, but maybe such drastic changes to mechanics and gameplay on all levels may have been too much.

people don't know what they want and that's the problem.. everyone wants something differn't so you basically just need to follow whatever game has systems that interest you..

Also your last line is funny since i keep seeing all these wow clone posts pop up now also.. never seen such bipolar opinions from people on a game before. Usually it's just I hate this game I love this game stuff for MMOs.. But for GW2 it's a hate x because it's too hard and the next thread is I hate x because it's to easy. Seen almost every complaint about this game have a thread with someone complaining about the same thing but exact opposite of what was just recently complained about.

So you are looking for absolutes? because experinces are going to vary from player to player. For me other than champs and dungeons GW2 is mind numbingly easy however others might find it difficult. 

Bipolar would be correct term if same person is saying game is too easy and difficult at same time, not when different players share different experinces.

  Badaboom

Hard Core Member

Joined: 10/04/10
Posts: 2387

10/16/12 5:29:34 PM#150
Originally posted by halflife25
Originally posted by Aerowyn
Originally posted by stevebmbsqd
 

Quite frankly, the majority of those reviews were written in the first few weeks. There is a large amount of people all over the internet who are complaining that GW2 is too repetitive and gets boring quickly. Reviews don't hold weight when given after a few weeks of play when the game is an MMO that is designed to maintain a persons interests over a long period of time. I am not saying GW2 is a bad game, just that many of the ideas may have been better in theory rather than implementation. A lot of people thought they wanted a "change", but in the end, that wasn't the case. Often things are a certain way for a reason.  I am not saying that new things shouldn't be tried, but maybe such drastic changes to mechanics and gameplay on all levels may have been too much.

people don't know what they want and that's the problem.. everyone wants something differn't so you basically just need to follow whatever game has systems that interest you..

Also your last line is funny since i keep seeing all these wow clone posts pop up now also.. never seen such bipolar opinions from people on a game before. Usually it's just I hate this game I love this game stuff for MMOs.. But for GW2 it's a hate x because it's too hard and the next thread is I hate x because it's to easy. Seen almost every complaint about this game have a thread with someone complaining about the same thing but exact opposite of what was just recently complained about.

So you are looking for absolutes? because experinces are going to vary from player to player. For me other than champs and dungeons GW2 is mind numbingly easy however others might find it difficult. 

Bipolar would be correct term if same person is saying game is too easy and difficult at same time, not when various players share different experinces.

I think Aerowyn is referring to the MMORPG.com community as a whole.

  Aerowyn

Novice Member

Joined: 2/20/12
Posts: 7969

10/16/12 5:29:47 PM#151
Originally posted by halflife25
Originally posted by Aerowyn
Originally posted by stevebmbsqd
 

Quite frankly, the majority of those reviews were written in the first few weeks. There is a large amount of people all over the internet who are complaining that GW2 is too repetitive and gets boring quickly. Reviews don't hold weight when given after a few weeks of play when the game is an MMO that is designed to maintain a persons interests over a long period of time. I am not saying GW2 is a bad game, just that many of the ideas may have been better in theory rather than implementation. A lot of people thought they wanted a "change", but in the end, that wasn't the case. Often things are a certain way for a reason.  I am not saying that new things shouldn't be tried, but maybe such drastic changes to mechanics and gameplay on all levels may have been too much.

people don't know what they want and that's the problem.. everyone wants something differn't so you basically just need to follow whatever game has systems that interest you..

Also your last line is funny since i keep seeing all these wow clone posts pop up now also.. never seen such bipolar opinions from people on a game before. Usually it's just I hate this game I love this game stuff for MMOs.. But for GW2 it's a hate x because it's too hard and the next thread is I hate x because it's to easy. Seen almost every complaint about this game have a thread with someone complaining about the same thing but exact opposite of what was just recently complained about.

So you are looking for absolutes? because experinces are going to vary from player to player. For me other than champs and dungeons GW2 is mind numbingly easy however others might find it difficult. 

Bipolar would be correct term if same person is making two opposite complains not when various players share different experinces.

contradicting better for you? :)

I angered the clerk in a clothing shop today. She asked me what size I was and I said actual, because I am not to scale. I like vending machines 'cause snacks are better when they fall. If I buy a candy bar at a store, oftentimes, I will drop it... so that it achieves its maximum flavor potential. --Mitch Hedberg

  Ozivois

Novice Member

Joined: 4/17/10
Posts: 600

10/16/12 5:34:45 PM#152
And this is why time sinks are so important in MMO's.  When it comes down to it, veterans want to have better stuff than everyone else.  That is how we feel special about our character. This move by developers to go to "no levels", "no grinding", etc. shortens the life span of a game, and how you feel about character progression.
  LIOKI

Hard Core Member

Joined: 5/02/08
Posts: 163

10/16/12 5:40:52 PM#153
what do they care? all developers need is time till the next release.

Never argue with stupid people, they will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience.

  Wakygreek

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 4/30/08
Posts: 1244

Reason is a necessity

10/16/12 5:41:13 PM#154
Originally posted by Gaia_Hunter
Originally posted by GeezerGamer
Originally posted by fundayz
Originally posted by ZigZags

The game is WoW without the difficulty and sense of achievement. That's why. Like i've said 10000 times before. Its a theme park released in an age where there are already better theme parks...

 GW2 is like the Knotts Berry Farms of MMOs. It sucks and Id rather just go to Disneyland.

You forgot the part where GW2 plays nothing like WoW or other WoW-clones. Seriously, have you even played the game?

Or maye he's thinking that components such as Dodge really aren't all that innovative.

GW2: 

Player runs across a random mob and enters combat. Player deals some damage then notices the mob's cast bar climbing. Player instinctively hit's "Dodge" and avoids taking any damage from Mob's cast. "GW2 combat is so AWESOME!"

WoW:

Player runs across a random mob and enters combat. Player deals some damage then notices the mob's cast bar climbing. Player instinctively hit's "interrupt" and avoids taking any damage from Mob's cast. "WoW combat really sux!"

"Cast bar"?

In GW2?

Do you guys play the game or just make up stuff?

Dodge is equivilant to WoW's skill interrupts to an extent. You get a mechanic that allows you to move out of the way of a spell in GW2, in WOW you get a mechanic that allows you to disrupt a spell cast. Both mechanics are simmilar in that you disrupt the enemies plans to harm you. However GW2 plays with player placement a lot more then WoW does. In WoW you have to be in a raid with a scripted boss in order to get a sense of urgency in movement. In GW2 the first instance requires you to dodge more than you have the stamina for to avoid all of the aoes.

GW2 makes you think more on your feet, WoW is more on the static side so you are never really surprised or required to move unless in a raid for the most part.

So while Dodging is not innovative neither is spell interrupts, both have been in gaming for a while now. More importantly Dodging is a more effective mechanic then just your standard spell interrupt skill because dodging also requires you to know where your character is, where his dodge will take him and also whether or not any counter measures will be required after the dodge. It gets much more interesting in pvp, If you want to compare disruptions i would stick with comparing games that use simmilar mechanics that cause player displacement.

  fundayz

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 10/14/10
Posts: 471

10/16/12 5:41:56 PM#155
Originally posted by Ozivois
And this is why time sinks are so important in MMO's.  When it comes down to it, veterans want to have better stuff than everyone else.  That is how we feel special about our character. This move by developers to go to "no levels", "no grinding", etc. shortens the life span of a game, and how you feel about character progression.

GW2 wasn't designed for the MMO players that play solely for the gear progression, it was made for those that play for the gameplay in of itself.

  Gaia_Hunter

Elite Member

Joined: 5/04/12
Posts: 2590

10/16/12 5:48:30 PM#156
Originally posted by Wakygreek
Originally posted by Gaia_Hunter
Originally posted by GeezerGamer
Originally posted by fundayz
Originally posted by ZigZags

The game is WoW without the difficulty and sense of achievement. That's why. Like i've said 10000 times before. Its a theme park released in an age where there are already better theme parks...

 GW2 is like the Knotts Berry Farms of MMOs. It sucks and Id rather just go to Disneyland.

You forgot the part where GW2 plays nothing like WoW or other WoW-clones. Seriously, have you even played the game?

Or maye he's thinking that components such as Dodge really aren't all that innovative.

GW2: 

Player runs across a random mob and enters combat. Player deals some damage then notices the mob's cast bar climbing. Player instinctively hit's "Dodge" and avoids taking any damage from Mob's cast. "GW2 combat is so AWESOME!"

WoW:

Player runs across a random mob and enters combat. Player deals some damage then notices the mob's cast bar climbing. Player instinctively hit's "interrupt" and avoids taking any damage from Mob's cast. "WoW combat really sux!"

"Cast bar"?

In GW2?

Do you guys play the game or just make up stuff?

Dodge is equivilant to WoW's skill interrupts to an extent. You get a mechanic that allows you to move out of the way of a spell in GW2, in WOW you get a mechanic that allows you to disrupt a spell cast. Both mechanics are simmilar in that you disrupt the enemies plans to harm you. However GW2 plays with player placement a lot more then WoW does. In WoW you have to be in a raid with a scripted boss in order to get a sense of urgency in movement. In GW2 the first instance requires you to dodge more than you have the stamina for to avoid all of the aoes.

GW2 makes you think more on your feet, WoW is more on the static side so you are never really surprised or required to move unless in a raid for the most part.

So while Dodging is not innovative neither is spell interrupts, both have been in gaming for a while now. More importantly Dodging is a more effective mechanic then just your standard spell interrupt skill because dodging also requires you to know where your character is, where his dodge will take him and also whether or not any counter measures will be required after the dodge. It gets much more interesting in pvp, If you want to compare disruptions i would stick with comparing games that use simmilar mechanics that cause player displacement.

GW2 also has action disrupters, from daze to knocks and it also has short duration blocks and counters (block attack and retaliate).

I think what makes the combate more interesting to me is the fact it is more active instead of passive (traits being passives are a bit of a let down).

Currently playing: GW2
Cooperative (semi cooperative)board games you should check: Pandemic, Sentinels of the Multiverse, Eldritch Horror, Descent 2.0,Level 7 Omega Protocol, Last Night on Earth

  TheIronLegion

Apprentice Member

Joined: 9/06/12
Posts: 270

Act with wisdom, but act.

10/16/12 5:51:21 PM#157
Originally posted by GolbezTheLion

You need to let go of worrying about stats, and concentrate on playing your character to the very maximum of it's potential on an individual level.

GW has never been about stats, you get your max armor/weapons and then it's all cosmetics from there. The progressive aspect is personal advancement and learning to play your character to the absolute fullest in any given situation.

Agreed. In GW1 I'd have some really cool set of armor I just worked super hard for and then I'd walk by someone who had something that completely trumped what i was wearing. I instantly wanted what they had and would work tirelessly to get it.

  GeezerGamer

Elite Member

Joined: 4/03/12
Posts: 4636

10/16/12 6:55:50 PM#158
Originally posted by Gaia_Hunter
Originally posted by GeezerGamer
Originally posted by fundayz
Originally posted by ZigZags

The game is WoW without the difficulty and sense of achievement. That's why. Like i've said 10000 times before. Its a theme park released in an age where there are already better theme parks...

 GW2 is like the Knotts Berry Farms of MMOs. It sucks and Id rather just go to Disneyland.

You forgot the part where GW2 plays nothing like WoW or other WoW-clones. Seriously, have you even played the game?

Or maye he's thinking that components such as Dodge really aren't all that innovative.

GW2: 

Player runs across a random mob and enters combat. Player deals some damage then notices the mob's cast bar climbing. Player instinctively hit's "Dodge" and avoids taking any damage from Mob's cast. "GW2 combat is so AWESOME!"

WoW:

Player runs across a random mob and enters combat. Player deals some damage then notices the mob's cast bar climbing. Player instinctively hit's "interrupt" and avoids taking any damage from Mob's cast. "WoW combat really sux!"

"Cast bar"?

In GW2?

Do you guys play the game or just make up stuff?

Yeah, Cut N Paste mistake. Meant to edit that to red rings, but whatever, as long as you got the point. 

It's the sad state of the genre. The next big title has as many threads discussing issues with it's business model than issues with the game itself.

  GeezerGamer

Elite Member

Joined: 4/03/12
Posts: 4636

10/16/12 7:12:10 PM#159
Originally posted by slicknslim88
Originally posted by GeezerGamer
Originally posted by slicknslim88
Originally posted by GeezerGamer
Originally posted by Aerowyn
Originally posted by GeezerGamer
 

I've explained it. The implementation chosen requires each player be fully aware of every other player in the group. That's for the dungeons. As group sizes would increase, so would the demand for awareness placed on each player in the team. The burden would exceed the abilities of the average gamer. It's just info overload. That's why we have roles in traditional groups. I don't have a way for the non trinity system to work. I have a hard time seeing it, but I'll accept it's possible. But of what i've seen in it's current implementation, I think we are at about the limit of what a coordinated group can be before that coordination breaks down. And the evidence is present. Look at the big raid fights. They are lacklustre at best.

think about this for a second.. look at the 5 man dungeons in this game currently and how many issues people so stuck on trinity games are having.. now imagine if they made the open world bosses complex encounters people would be having a field day as they could not complete the content.. open world stuff should be more accessable this way imho.. But now saying that look what happens once a good group knows the dungeons in this game... they are blazing through them in 30 min which would take others hours to get through... now look at the scenario i typed above why would something like that not work with a well coordinated raid in this type of game?

also i'd try the dragon fights now when the areas are not completely oversaturated with people like they were couple weeks ago they are a LOT more fun

Your key words are "good group" That's where it falls apart. Hell it's hard enough in the trinity. Much less a game with increased siuational awareness requirements. I think it's more the human factor when I am talking about the least common denominator. Most just won't get it

 

I'm having trouble with you thoughts on this.  But shouldn't a "good group" be the ones that succeed in ANY dungeon, even raid dungeons for trinity games?  I'm not talking about a "great group" or an "amazing group" or a "flawless group" here.  But I'm talking about a group with basic knowledge of the encounters who are all responsive and aware of the fights to a degree that a "good" player will have.  Not an average or weak player.  Because those players should not be able to get through the tough stuff in any MMO game, or any game actually.  I believe that if a player wants to succeed in an MMO, or any game for that matter, they should at least take some time to study how the game works, such as encounters in a dungeon, and I'm not talking like ridiculous amounts, but gathering a basic understanding of the game should be key to succeeding in it.  I would be highly highly dissapointed in any game that I can just jump in and without much effort at all, breeze my way through it...*cough* Diablo 3 *cough*.  

So your saying that because MOST players would not have the proper situational awareness requirements that a dungeon with more than 5 player cap (a raid dungeon) in GW2 would fail?  That tells me a couple things.  First off, your  pretty much insulting gamers intelligence on a pretty large scale (although there are some cases where I wouldn't dissagree with you on this point, lol)  and secondly, that you believe that difficult games should not be made because the majority of players wouldn't be able to complete them because they lack the "good player" quality to do it.  And that's just a silly notion in it's own right.

GW2's lack of the trinity system is a breakthrough in MMO gaming, and this being the first game of it's kind, I can understand some skepticism in believeing that it can achieve the things that the holy trinity has achieved.  But to believe that it CANNOT achieve those things straight up, is downright naive and incredibly close minded.

In response to your 1st paragraph, I am not talking about individual players, I am talking about the law of averages. When you PUG dungeons, you are going to get bad players. That's just the way it is. Now, at the same time, and historically in games such as WoW, time does prove to overcome this as even the worst players eventually either learn what to do, or just outgear the dungeons. But in GW2, that 2nd option is not possible.

No, I'm not saying most players. I'm saying the "One you got stuck with in your group that doesn't" situation that always seems to happen in PUGs.

I would say the GW2 system is a break away, not a break through. You can call me closed minded, but to me I've seen the effect. It's very limited. If I were to say that a non-trinity system will never work, then sure, that's closed minded, but I'm not saying that. What I am saying is GW2's system is limited, it's an observation.  I have said before, Look at the lack luster boss fights. Look at one of the biggest complaints about the dungeon system in the past 6 weeks of threads here, many have said the same thing.  The fact that you disagree doesn't make me any more or less ignorant of any "facts".  The non-trinity system of GW2, did not go over as well with the "masses" as was previously hoped.

How is this a bad thing??  Overtime the community learns to overcome difficult obstacles using their skill instead of using whatever great gear they can scrounge together.  All positive there.  Also, due to the fact that the dungeons are actually difficult in this game, it gives people incentives to be social and gather friends to do a dungeon instead of a PUG.  Also, a positive thing.

Your only argument that your providing that the system is limited is that it's a non-trinity game, and that people on the forums complain about the dungeons.  The only reason people complain about the dungeon's is because they get their asses kicked and instead of learning why they are constantly dying and losing, they decide it must be the game's fault.  "It's a new system, it's the system that's flawed, not me, I'm the best player in the world!"  I know this because people who have actually learned the dungeons have a great time playing them, and die far less frequently.  And people who die frequently in my groups always play the same record "omg, this game's system is so broken!" even though I'm watching how terrible they are playing.

Judging from your argument's so far, your taking all your facts just from what you hear on these forums instead of asking what people think who are playing the game.  Oh, you can't ask them, because they are all enjoying it right now.  The massive amounts of great reviews are also an indication of just how much the "masses" "dislike" this game.

We all have different opinions on PUGs. either way, it is what it is, we all have to deal with them.

I think you are making assumtions about what players are thinking. I am just stating what I've seen. BTW, I am open to being proven wrong. But for now, I say the system has no room to expand. Dungeon and world PVE raids will continue to be zergy "Every man for himself fights". But on GW2's side. I will be fair and admit that it's not just the non trinity system that is like this. I have seen this in Rift as well with World PVE fights. They can be just as zergy and just as much everyman for himself fights. I will admit that. And while that may just be the nature of the beast. I do know that it is possible to have a well coordinated raid group in a Trinity system. But in a GW2 world boss fight, would it even be of any benefit if the whole raid was in voice chat? Everyone would be doing the same thing. DPS when not trying to avoid red rings. I am well aware of setting up combos and using banners (Play a War) etc.

Show me the acolades praising the new non role system. I won't say it doesn't exist, I just haven't seen much of it. If that's really the case and this system is getting rave reviews and I'm jus tliving in an inforamtion black hole, then, I can admit that too.

It's the sad state of the genre. The next big title has as many threads discussing issues with it's business model than issues with the game itself.

  User Deleted
10/16/12 9:25:22 PM#160

made it to level 8 tonight....my toons name is Randaynn...come to find out there is already a "Randayn" in game...

I will promise to not make another comment on the game until I reach 80...

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