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The Pub at MMORPG.COM  » The Hilarious Myth of "True Skill" in PvP.

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122 posts found
  Ozivois

Novice Member

Joined: 4/17/10
Posts: 599

10/16/12 5:29:30 PM#41

Sorry OP, but some people are always going to be better gamers than others.  Just like some people are smarter than others.  Using yourself an proof is hardly any way to make a point. 

The fact of the matter is that some people are able to multitask better than others; others are better at hand-eye coordination; others are smarter at noticing how well certain moves work against opponents; some players just have all of the aptitudes for gaming while others only have a few. 

What is hilarious is for someone to claim that skill is not a factor in any mental or physical sport...

 

  Apraxis

Elite Member

Joined: 9/28/05
Posts: 1438

10/16/12 5:32:52 PM#42
Originally posted by negativf4kk

true skill!!!! ROFL

All PC or console games is not a skill. Its more a knowlage base and group co-op. Learn the rulls, colculate the game Dps and heal formula and u set to go. Player 1 press 123, Player 2 press 456.

"True skill " of pressing the buttons. LOL

Well.. in mmos it often comes down to that. Not so true in other games. In UT(the first one) you really needed a good hand eye coordination.. and fast reflexes. Knowing the game alone didnt help you, there.

  stux

Advanced Member

Joined: 9/23/09
Posts: 469

10/16/12 5:33:34 PM#43

Like any other game (RL, computer, board game, etc.) it does take skill from a combination of intellect, coordination, quick thinking, practice, knowledge, etc.

 

Come play darkfall and lets see how good you really are.

 

EDIT

 

 

skill

1    [skil] Show IPA

 

noun

1.
the ability, coming from one's knowledge, practice, aptitude, etc., to do something well: Carpentry was one of his many skills.

 

2.

competent excellence in performance; expertness; dexterity: The dancers performed with skill.

 

3.

a craft, trade, or job requiring manual dexterity or special training in which a person has competence and experience: the skill of cabinetmaking.

 

4.

Obsolete . understanding; discernment.

 

5.

Obsolete . reason; cause.

 

source: http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/skill

 

 
  Apraxis

Elite Member

Joined: 9/28/05
Posts: 1438

10/16/12 5:42:17 PM#44
Originally posted by Disatisfied9

It has to deal with people who believe "true skill" is found in specific games, but not in other games. That somehow Counterstrike is more "serious" than Call of Duty or Tribes. That somehow MOBA games are more involved with player skill than Supreme Commander or Age of Empires 2. That somehow Ultima Online PKing is more serious of a competition than WoW tournaments.

Why do you even mention me at all? Why waste your time replying in an off-topic format, completing ignoring the reality of the topic?

But, it is partially true. As example. The original UT and Quake3 were a lot faster as lets say CS or BF or almost all modern shooter. It required a lot more quickness(hand eye coordinationes and reflexes).. but is that skill? Well, in some way yes.

In MMOs, where you got in most games a Global Cooldown of above 1 sec. everything is more or less super slow and you dont need a lot of hand eye coordiation or reflexe.. because almost all are capable of handling that. Then it becomes more about knowledge of the game, or imbalances within, or team play or whatever.

But your thesis about "true skill" is right. Different games require different qualifications.. and the most of it can be learned over time from almost everyone. And the last 1% is skill, or better said, physical advantage. In some games it is less in other more, but in almost all the greater share is time spent.

  mmoguy43

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 3/31/09
Posts: 2297

10/16/12 6:00:26 PM#45

Sometimes I play in a way that makes it more fun for other players even if I loose.

I call it a skill.

Let's build the ultimate MMO 1 feature at a time
http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/thread/398555/page/1

  User Deleted
 
OP  10/16/12 6:26:17 PM#46
Originally posted by Spennet
I'm not really sure what you're trying to say, but I guess it has something to do with your disbelief in the existence of a universal video game skill aka. "true skill". The mastering of any skill can be simplified to the following equation: time x learningfactor = proficiency. This learningfactor is what's generally known as talent - or in this case - "true skill". So the question is: Does this exists across various PvP games? I would say yes. For instance there certainly exist people who learns strategy games faster  than the average individual. That being said, if there exists a pretty large gap between the amount of time two players have dedicated to playing a certain game; the player with the most amount of time spent will probably always beat the other player (unless the other player is the Bob Fischer of video games).

Exactly.

Except for many people here claim...

 

1) If you play Counter-Strike or Starcraft, your skill is "true" while other games make your skill (I can only assume...) "untrue".

2) If I speak about PvP in any fashion, it MUST have been because I lost, am angry at losing, and am frustrating with my inability to play correctly. If you "dis" PvP in any regard, it MUST be because you suck at it.

3) Other irrational claims not based in reality.

 

The primary point of the OP is that playing a specific game, such as Counter-Strike or Starcraft, doesn't make your "skill" any more "true" than if you were playing a different video game.

  User Deleted
 
OP  10/16/12 6:32:43 PM#47
Originally posted by Robokapp
Op will never recognise true skill even if it's right in front of him...he could be playing chess online with kasparov and laugh at the concept of true skill...

If I beat the person, why would it be "true skill"?

If I lose to the person, ask why, and they state that they have hundreds, even thousands of more hours in the game than me, how is their skill truer than someone who doesn't play Counterstrike, Starcraft, or Chess- and instead plays a less popular FPS, RTS, or board game?

 

The concept of "True Skill" is laughable, because of the implication of it being "True" as compared to other Skills of equal competency.

 

I'm sorry, but I refuse to recognize Counter-Strike players as having "True Skill" while people who play Tribes don't know what "True Skill" is.

 

Either Skill is "True" anywhere it is found, or there is no such thing as "True Skill". Since the very semantics of "True Skill" is to differentiate "True Skill" from "Skill" or "Regular Skill" with an emphasis on "Skill" not being actual Skill and demeaning it of its definition...I propose that "True Skill" is a myth.

Of course, I MUST suck at Counter-Strike, Starcraft, and Chess. How else would I come to this conclusion that "True Skill" is a myth? Why else would I not worship tournament winners and pro gamers, as if they're better than other players who could beat them but do NOT enter tournaments? I must be blind to "True Skill" since I am unable to recognize it in players who score thousands of hours in a single video game. I mean, it's not like the best of the best isn't some 12 year old Chinese prodigy gamer who never enters tournaments but can headshot you with an unscoped sniper rifle from 1000m away.

 

I believe the argument here, and especially those who vehemently disagree with me to the point of feeling a desire to attempt to attack my perspective or insult me personally, is mostly about the definition of "True Skill". I am often amazed at how people can disagree with one another without even first agreeing on what they're discussing.

  User Deleted
 
OP  10/16/12 6:36:55 PM#48
Originally posted by negativf4kk

true skill!!!! ROFL

All PC or console games is not a skill. Its more a knowlage base and group co-op. Learn the rulls, colculate the game Dps and heal formula and u set to go. Player 1 press 123, Player 2 press 456.

"True skill " of pressing the buttons. LOL

Exactly. Yet so many here believe skill is not only real in video games, but it is TRUE or "more true" in one video game over the next.

You will find these quotes to be commonplace among gamers:

 

"WoW Arena 5v5 is the only Arena that actually matters." (It matters? It matters more than other forms of competitive play? It matters more than PvE?)

"You don't know what true skill is, until you play in CS1.6 or Starcraft tournaments and win."

"It's not REAL PvP unless it's FFA PvP."

"If you're complaining, speaking ill of competitive play, or insulting my game idealogy, it MUST be because suck. There is no other reasoning to be speaking right now." (Paraphrase Interpretation of Trollspeak)

  User Deleted
 
OP  10/16/12 6:38:42 PM#49
Originally posted by bubaluba
I would rather say OP is posting that thread because he got pawned in pvp from fps to rts. Dude we all know that  psychology  game because we are old gamers and you can show that to small children and not to us.  Wen people get pawned they are angry on all gaming comunity and post like this one is last hope to get some attention. You can try something in real world if you want some harder challenge, for example try  boxing, running, cycling, archery if  gaming is to easy for you.  9-1 yea sure, maybe was my grandpa playing CS

For the sake and sanity of the human race, I hope to God you are not serious and this is not a real paragraph.

  User Deleted
 
OP  10/16/12 6:40:57 PM#50
Originally posted by Greenthingg

There are people that are more skilled than others at video games.  Even after years of practice, some people never learn.

 

I used to be a friggin beast at Street fighter vs Capcom arcade games, back in the days at the old underground arcade, where you'd be PvPing people with nowhere to hide, where respect was earned with real proof in the pudding.

I used to care for my reputation and was really dead serious about that game at the arcade, because there was a real sense of competition.  Nowadays, in MMOs, there's nothing close to it.  The only real fun i've had in MMO PvP was in Warhammer, where my guild group would farm PuG zergs with a 6-12 man, but that was just like what the OP's saying, clubbing baby seals with our decked out characters full of the best IWIN items (most of them duped and exploited, well, I never duped, but people I know gave me all the best stuff lawl, thanks to the terrible Mythic coders).  It was fun, but nowhere near 'skilled PvP' as most would be claiming.

In GW2, there might be a true 'skill' cap for sPvP, the best teams playing to win games, having fantastic strategies to do that, but IMO, the sPvP isn't fun.  It's capture points objectives just dosen't seem appealing to me, since I play to PvP and not to cap flags faster than my ennemy, that's just boring, and I just simply can't get really serious about it.  People can get really good at avoiding fights to cap objectives, and that irritates the shit out of me when I pull a team together to play tournaments.  We killed more, but lost the fight, yeah cool game there Anet.  Some might disagree, but to each their own, I respect that everyone can have different tastes.

 

What I dislike about people claiming to be more skilled than others in MMOs, is the class imbalances and the EPEENERY it creates, and the FOTM classes imbalancing the metagame, and the rinse repeat endless cycle of nerfs and buffs.  Due to those facts, hard to judge real 'skill'.  Same can be said about street fighter games though, they always have imbalance problems.

 

So in short, yes, there are truely more 'skilled' players, but it's hard to meter in MMOs.

Great post, full of intelligent thought and actual experience.

It's easy to tell good players (you) from the rest (drivel).

 

Thank you for restoring my faith in humanity.

  User Deleted
 
OP  10/16/12 6:50:45 PM#51
Originally posted by mmoDAD

There is skill in every game.

 

I used to be a "lan / tournament gamer". I've won cash, towers, CPUs, GPUs, xBox 360, high-end media, etc. In fact, I used some of the money I won to purchase an engagement ring (long time ago).

 

It's obvious that hand-eye coordination is less important in a MMO. However, speed is still very important. Proper hardware and keybindings is a must, e.g., binding all hotbar keys to keystrokes and mouse buttons. You should never have to click on a hotbar. The ability to render frames faster than normal is important, too. The game might not look pretty, but the performance boost with low detail or without shadows allows faster reaction time.

Having the setup is only half the battle. The other half is using your brain - knowing when, what, and where to attack and/or counter-attack.

True Skill in gaming is Speed.

No need to provide links, what you say is entirely believable simply for its accuracy.

 

It is great to know that other gamers who are excellent at video games believe the same thing.

I'd have to say, this is entirely accurate. If I were to give three reasons why I am typically better than most players, it would have to be

1) Speed. Hands down, this is why. I am pretty sure the reason I cast off 4-5 abilities by the time someone does a single 1, is because of speed. There's few other reasons I see me being better than simply being able to click, key, or mouse faster.

2) Experience & Knowledge of gaming in general. Knowing that whenever your enemy goes around a wall expecting you, simply reversing where someone would normally go is almost always a guaranteed win in casual play. Even among good players, my experience playing lets me KNOW where to go or what to do. You learn not only to predict casual players, but even to predict people you know are trying to predict you (better players). Knowing the best order to use your abilities, knowledge of the game mechanics as to what is OP and gimped, what should be saved, and how to counter what most newbs complain about and say is an OP ez-mode ability. (Ex. I never had a problem with Frenzy in GW2, as my build was OP, and the first good player to use it on me was shot down by me reading how to counter it-- which is super easy.)

3) Hardware, Software Computer Knowledge, etc. (Especially in an MMORPG, this naga mouse is epic ez-mode, lol. In SWTOR PvP, I even had one character who literally just spammed a SINGLE button. In other games, I sometimes create scripts to be lazy.) If anyone even uses the mouse to CLICK an ability, I instantly laugh at them. It's like someone claiming to be good at FPS games while using a Controller (as opposed to a mouse+keyboard).

 

By far though, it's speed. Knowledge of the game, hardware or computer knowledge, accuracy, coordination-- nothing compared to Speed. (Hardware counts when it comes to giving you better Speed, but since it's NOT an option for me to NOT use some form of superior input config, my #3 is separate from #1.)

 

While I am no expert in RTS games, my competitive experiences and research into pro play indicates that Speed has a significant importance in these games. Otherwise, people wouldn't be so obsessed with clicks per minute.

  Icewhite

Made History

Joined: 7/11/11
Posts: 6495

Pink, it's like red but not quite.

10/16/12 7:02:28 PM#52
Originally posted by Foomerang

The only time ive seen true skill in a player v player video game is Game X.

So typical of 'true skill' posts. 

"Only Game X players have ever had any true skill."

"No wai, game X is ezsauce, game Y was totally hard."

(goto 10:Infinite loop error.)

Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.

  User Deleted
 
OP  10/16/12 7:04:41 PM#53
Originally posted by Dominisi

It is apparent that there are two factors at play here:

#1 The OP likely just got wrecked in some pvp encounter. His opponient probably started boasting about how he has skill and the OP was terrible.

#2 The OP doesn't have a grasp of the english language and understand what skill means. Let me define it for you:

the ability, coming from one's knowledge, practice, aptitude, etc., to do something well

 

By that definition, and your long rant afterwards about how dedicated hours and hours to a video game and its mechanics isn't skill, you defined it AS skill. Maybe if you would have spent the past 10 years learning something instead of rushing home from work/school to play video games that would get you no where due to your lack of time to dedicate to them, you would understand basic words in the english language.

It is very unfortunate that your arrogance has blinded you to how ironic your comments truly are.

 

The first accusation, is simply irrational. I already stated I win far more than I ever lose, often topping charts. Even with a team loss, I typically do the best on my team, and feel great about my abilities. You must not read very well, as this was stated clearly in the OP.

The second accusation is where the irony floods in. You claim I do not have a grasp of the english language or the definition of "skill", yet never for a moment do I deny there is skill in video games, or that Time Played * Other Factors = Skill.

 

The heavy amount of irony is in the simple fact we are talking about other's definitions of "True Skill", which is defined by them to be strictly opposite of "Skill" or "Regular Skill" to the point of "Skill" losing its definition entirely. "You don't know True Skill unless you win CS1.6 or Starcraft tournaments."

Perhaps in your long, arrogant attempt to discredit me, you lost your ability to comprehend any part of the english language. It is actually quite scary that people like you exist, who sit at a computer screen, fail to read any part of the OP, lose any ability to understand the topic or meaning of the thread, and then insist that someone else fails understanding the definition of a word which they never spoke of directly...all with an arrogance so heavy that you probably gave yourself a pat on the back with a mischivious smirk, "My ability to debate absolutely destroyed him!"

If you were able to comprehend any part of the english language, you would readily see that I claim to possess SKILL, but do not believe "TRUE SKILL" exists, nor does "TRUE" Skill have any greater meaning than "SKILL" or "Regular Skill". How could I deny Skill exists or dispute the definition fo Skill, if I am claiming to possess said Skill and my only opinion is that Skill is Skill, and one Skill is no more "True" or meaningful than another?

True Skill > Skill? No, because True Skill doesn't exist. There is only Skill.

I would savor the delicious irony, except that the arrogance and excessive amount make it take bitter; Almost disgusting.

  Yizle

Apprentice Member

Joined: 4/24/10
Posts: 526

10/16/12 7:08:12 PM#54
Originally posted by Robokapp
Op will never recognise true skill even if it's right in front of him...he could be playing chess online with kasparov and laugh at the concept of true skill...

This is about as on target as you can get.

  User Deleted
 
OP  10/16/12 7:15:13 PM#55
Originally posted by Icewhite
Originally posted by Foomerang

The only time ive seen true skill in a player v player video game is Game X.

So typical of 'true skill' posts. 

"Only Game X players have ever had any true skill."

"No wai, game X is ezsauce, game Y was totally hard."

(goto 10:Infinite loop error.)

It is almost sickening as it is disappointing that people say these things, in a thread topic defining these very people, and why they are irrational.

 

OP: People who drink Zomberry Juice are Zombies, because Zomberry Juice turns them into a Zombie.

Forum Zombies: Urrrrrrrrrgh! You're wrrrrrronngggggg! Type Type Type. Brains!!! What? There are none here?

Zomboy: The only real Zombies are those who eat at least 3 humans. You don't even KNOW what it means to be a Zombie if you haven't eaten 3 humans.

 

  User Deleted
 
OP  10/16/12 7:17:19 PM#56
Originally posted by Yizle
Originally posted by Robokapp
Op will never recognise true skill even if it's right in front of him...he could be playing chess online with kasparov and laugh at the concept of true skill...

This is about as on target as you can get.

Would you care to explain why? Validating other's thoughts isn't very informative to others unless you specify why you agree. You might as well just not post if you do not want to share your own thoughts.

 

Administrator: Einstein gives a lecture on Quantumy Science, and sits down. Yizle, would you like to present your lecture on Quantumy Science?

Yizle: What he said. I agree. Exactly what he said. *sits down, expecting a reward*

*4 hours later*

Yizle: Why did Einstein get cookies and not me? My lecture was epic.

  User Deleted
 
OP  10/16/12 7:23:45 PM#57
Originally posted by Wizardry

I don't feel like posting more Quake or unreal videos but those games are where the skill is,RPG's offer VERY little to the skill field of pvp.

Someone please knock me out...

  User Deleted
 
OP  10/16/12 7:25:35 PM#58
Originally posted by itgrowls
Originally posted by Disatisfied9

 (word up G home slice bacon bits!)  

I laughed so hard at this i almost spit out my tea at the monitor LOL!!!

Do I believe I have "true skill"? Only if I can stop laughing at the idea of someone claiming "true skill" in a video game...lol...

Coming from someone who has been there, done that, and come home with a collection of forced rage quitting enemies and top player wins, I can honestly tell you: There is no difference in "player skill" in a game like Counterstrike or Starcraft than any other video game. In fact, most people will probably brag about those two simply for the fact they were so popular.

It's true it's about the same as claiming there's skill involved in the heavily mod'ed heavily macro'd modified by armor stats PVP we see in games like WoW. Just doesn't exist really. I can see that and I don't even pvp....:)

It kindof takes the fun out of competitive play, when you realize you only won due to the person being younger than you, or only lost due to them having hundreds of hours more free time to play their game. 

Exactly, sorta brings perspective to the PVE epeens as well, there's alot of this nonsense about how awesome someone is just because they had more time and less of a real life to spend gathering all the assundry nonsense to put together a legendary. smh

 

 

LOL, thank you. I appreciate intelligent people, especially when confronted with so much the opposite.

  User Deleted
 
OP  10/16/12 7:26:22 PM#59
Originally posted by Bathnor
      "True skill" lol.

roflmao...thank you for the laugh.

  Oracle_Fefe

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 9/04/10
Posts: 218

Feethree

10/16/12 8:17:34 PM#60

Could you elaborate more on this "True Skill" belief? When I read it I think of 'random talent' that players get from playing other games and I know that is not the correct assumption.

 

Or are you stating that just because a person is good in CS, DotA, or some other game, doesn't mean they are good in new game X, Y, or Z?

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