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The Pub at MMORPG.COM  » The Hilarious Myth of "True Skill" in PvP.

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122 posts found
  mmoguy43

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 3/31/09
Posts: 2300

10/16/12 3:35:46 PM#21
I agree. Describing "True skill" in an MMORPG is nifty joke. Too many factors that take no skill at all.

Let's build the ultimate MMO 1 feature at a time
http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/thread/398555/page/1

  Dominisi

Age of Conan Correspondent

Joined: 6/12/06
Posts: 86

True freedom only exists in abstract thinking.

10/16/12 3:46:53 PM#22

It is apparent that there are two factors at play here:

#1 The OP likely just got wrecked in some pvp encounter. His opponient probably started boasting about how he has skill and the OP was terrible.

#2 The OP doesn't have a grasp of the english language and understand what skill means. Let me define it for you:

the ability, coming from one's knowledge, practice, aptitude, etc., to do something well

 

By that definition, and your long rant afterwards about how dedicated hours and hours to a video game and its mechanics isn't skill, you defined it AS skill. Maybe if you would have spent the past 10 years learning something instead of rushing home from work/school to play video games that would get you no where due to your lack of time to dedicate to them, you would understand basic words in the english language.

  Phry

Elite Member

Joined: 7/01/04
Posts: 5213

10/16/12 3:47:37 PM#23
There is one game i know for sure, which players can display True Skill, and that is Eve online, now before everyone jumps on the old but you have to learn skills to uberness to compete etc, the 'True Skill' im referring to, is the FC's in a fleet. Its the skill of the FC in controlling others, tactical awareness, strategic foresight, whatever, its personal skills we're talking about, and not ones that involve pressing the buttons on a keyboard/joypad whackamole fashion. Wish i had those kinds of skills myself, and in Eve their rare enough that good FC's are an extremely valuable resource. But.. then again, i prefer to have fun and FC's probably have way too much stress in their gameplay
  GrumpyMel2

Hard Core Member

Joined: 3/24/09
Posts: 1813

10/16/12 3:53:28 PM#24
Originally posted by VengeSunsoar
Originally posted by immodium
Originally posted by Spennet
I'm not really sure what you're trying to say, but I guess it has something to do with your disbelief in the existence of a universal video game skill aka. "true skill". The mastering of any skill can be simplified to the following equation: time x learningfactor = proficiency. This learningfactor is what's generally known as talent - or in this case - "true skill". So the question is: Does this exists across various PvP games? I would say yes. For instance there certainly exist people who learns strategy games faster  than the average individual. That being said, if there exists a pretty large gap between the amount of time two players have dedicated to playing a certain game; the player with the most amount of time spent will probably always beat the other player (unless the other player is the Bob Fischer of video games).

I'd have to disagree with you. If your highly skilled in RTS games I don't believe you can carry that across to an FPS. It's an entirely different form of thinking.

 

Isn't it like saying you'll instantly be a master scrabble player just because your a master chess player. (both are forms of PvP) Even if you have never touched a scrabble board?

 Skill is determined and enhanced by 3 things

1.  Innate ability

2. Practice

3. Cognitive processing.

Any of those three can hamper the upper limit of skill that can be obtained.  #3 can eliminate it entirely.

There is cross-over between sports.  Studies have shown that athletes who play a sport with a ball (say volleyball) do have quicker cross-over abilities and are generally able to pick up another sport that invovles a ball (say basketball) quicker and easier than those who sports doesn't involve a ball (say wrestling).  They are various theories as to why but it is generally believed that the schema motor and cognitive processes developed for one are simliiar nature to the processes that are developed in another so this simply involves retuning the schema vs writing a completely new one.

By that token skill in one video game should translate to skill in another video game provided that they are similar.  things like twich fron one game to another both invovle simliar skills and similar cognitive processing. 

However twitch and RTS don't seem very similar, while there might be similarity in some aspects of the games which could cross-over, that right there is a different beast. 

Very well put !

  negativf4kk

Advanced Member

Joined: 6/25/12
Posts: 348

10/16/12 3:53:59 PM#25
Originally posted by Robokapp
Originally posted by negativf4kk

true skill!!!! ROFL

All PC or console games is not a skill. Its more a knowlage base and group co-op. Learn the rulls, colculate the game Dps and heal formula and u set to go. Player 1 press 123, Player 2 press 456.

"True skill " of pressing the buttons. LOL

your chess skills must be impressive. poker too.

My chess skill average. Online porker too. But if u will sit next to me in poker game, u r likely to loose all ur money. Card dealling, shuffling, cuts. Lets say i know how to deal the cards. But it has nothing to do with the skill. Its call cheating.

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  GrumpyMel2

Hard Core Member

Joined: 3/24/09
Posts: 1813

10/16/12 4:15:30 PM#26
Originally posted by Disatisfied9
Originally posted by SuperDonk
Congrats, you think you're the best gamer ever. Why waste your time posting all of that just for all of us unskilled peons?

Are you offended that I stated I am good at video gaming?

The entire purpose of stating this is to show that the person giving the opinion that "true skill" is a laughable myth, has some validity in what he says.

 

Would you rather a total newb, who loses most games, and sucks at competitive gameplay, state that "true skill" is a myth and pro gamers are a joke? Why would anyone take someone seriously when they are BAD at video games and DONT know what it takes to win, especially in very competitive play? Why would a person of null experience have a valid opinion on a subject?

 

I could care less what anyone here thinks of me, if anyone knows I am good or thinks I am awful. This thread has absolutely NOTHING to do with me. It has to deal with people who believe "true skill" is found in specific games, but not in other games. That somehow Counterstrike is more "serious" than Call of Duty or Tribes. That somehow MOBA games are more involved with player skill than Supreme Commander or Age of Empires 2. That somehow Ultima Online PKing is more serious of a competition than WoW tournaments.

Why do you even mention me at all? Why waste your time replying in an off-topic format, completing ignoring the reality of the topic?

Are you trying to contend that ALL games are of equivalent skill? There is no gradation in level of skill from one game to the next? That Chess is the equivalent of Tic-Tac-Toe ?  I believe that would be axiomaticaly false.

I would argue...

- Most games require at least some level of skill (absent something like playing a Slot machine).

- Different games involve different types of skills.

- Different games assuredly have involve different gradations of skill.

- Different players have different levels of skill at different games.

- Not every contest is decided purely by the skill of the participants. There are multiple factors weighing into the determination of each contest. You see this in venues that inarguably do involve significant skill. For example in competitive ski racing, a race can be decided by something as seemingly mundane as the wax applied to the bottom of the ski's by the technician working on them being of the wrong consistancy.

 

 

 

  negativf4kk

Advanced Member

Joined: 6/25/12
Posts: 348

10/16/12 4:26:10 PM#27
Originally posted by Robokapp
Originally posted by negativf4kk
Originally posted by Robokapp
Originally posted by negativf4kk

true skill!!!! ROFL

All PC or console games is not a skill. Its more a knowlage base and group co-op. Learn the rulls, colculate the game Dps and heal formula and u set to go. Player 1 press 123, Player 2 press 456.

"True skill " of pressing the buttons. LOL

your chess skills must be impressive. poker too.

My chess skill average. Online porker too. But if u will sit next to me in poker game, u r likely to loose all ur money. Card dealling, shuffling, cuts. Lets say i know how to deal the cards. But it has nothing to do with the skill. Its call cheating.

[mod edit]

Unfortunetly got very bad spelling in three languages i speak. Glad u got the "skill" to understand ))))

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  Yamota

Advanced Member

Joined: 10/05/03
Posts: 6506

"I fight so you don't have to."

10/16/12 4:32:24 PM#28
What a bunch of drivel, ofcourse you can have skill in playing a video game, much like you can have skills in cooking, carpeting, dancing or whatever which requires some action on your part.

  negativf4kk

Advanced Member

Joined: 6/25/12
Posts: 348

10/16/12 4:43:43 PM#29
Originally posted by Yamota
What a bunch of drivel, ofcourse you can have skill in playing a video game, much like you can have skills in cooking, carpeting, dancing or whatever which requires some action on your part.

Cook, carpenter and a dancer waiting in lobby to hand in their applications, to add their discipline for olympic games committee. Gamer comes in, looks at them and presses Esc.
 

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  Robokapp

Hard Core Member

Joined: 11/15/09
Posts: 4590

The only luck I had today was to have you as my opponent.

10/16/12 4:43:48 PM#30
Originally posted by negativf4kk
Originally posted by Robokapp
Originally posted by negativf4kk
Originally posted by Robokapp
Originally posted by negativf4kk

true skill!!!! ROFL

All PC or console games is not a skill. Its more a knowlage base and group co-op. Learn the rulls, colculate the game Dps and heal formula and u set to go. Player 1 press 123, Player 2 press 456.

"True skill " of pressing the buttons. LOL

your chess skills must be impressive. poker too.

My chess skill average. Online porker too. But if u will sit next to me in poker game, u r likely to loose all ur money. Card dealling, shuffling, cuts. Lets say i know how to deal the cards. But it has nothing to do with the skill. Its call cheating.

[mod edit]

Unfortunetly got very bad spelling in three languages i speak. Glad u got the "skill" to understand ))))

interestingly my 3 languages have far better grammar than that.

 

well at least 2 of the 3. I haven't uused my french for video game forums yet.

  Wizardry

Elite Member

Joined: 8/27/04
Posts: 6676

Perhaps tomorrow will be better.

10/16/12 4:48:36 PM#31

I don't feel like posting more Quake or unreal videos but those games are where the skill is,RPG's offer VERY little to the skill field of pvp.For one thing it is to ophard to manage 30/40/50 spells/askills/abilities,it is actually impossible with a fast paced pvp encounter.So the usual deciding factor is gear/levels reallyu nothing that is truly skillful.

A skilled player in Unreal or Quake would embarrass a new player, or even one with a few months gameplay under his belt.

First of all you need a skillful map,one that offers various choices for movement and weapon choices.RPG's NEVER offer  this and even the newer MOBA style games offer nothing but a bland map.

 

http://www.youtube.com/user/Napolianboo#p/u/15/rCYLLQCNc1w
Samoan Diamond

  negativf4kk

Advanced Member

Joined: 6/25/12
Posts: 348

10/16/12 4:53:58 PM#32
Originally posted by Robokapp
Originally posted by negativf4kk
Originally posted by Robokapp
Originally posted by negativf4kk
Originally posted by Robokapp
Originally posted by negativf4kk

true skill!!!! ROFL

All PC or console games is not a skill. Its more a knowlage base and group co-op. Learn the rulls, colculate the game Dps and heal formula and u set to go. Player 1 press 123, Player 2 press 456.

"True skill " of pressing the buttons. LOL

your chess skills must be impressive. poker too.

My chess skill average. Online porker too. But if u will sit next to me in poker game, u r likely to loose all ur money. Card dealling, shuffling, cuts. Lets say i know how to deal the cards. But it has nothing to do with the skill. Its call cheating.

I assume grammar skills also qualify as "lol"...

Unfortunetly got very bad spelling in three languages i speak. Glad u got the "skill" to understand ))))

interestingly my 3 languages have far better grammar than that.

 

well at least 2 of the 3. I haven't uused my french for video game forums yet.

Oh stop))) its enought about me))) 

So what u think about "true skill" in pvp?

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  Robokapp

Hard Core Member

Joined: 11/15/09
Posts: 4590

The only luck I had today was to have you as my opponent.

10/16/12 4:57:14 PM#33
Originally posted by negativf4kk

Oh stop))) its enought about me))) 

So what u think about "true skill" in pvp?

I think the ability to make split-second decisions that change the outcome of the battle when odds are against you and the traditional routes would lead to failure is a sign of skill.

 

or, perhaps of Talent, I should say.

  negativf4kk

Advanced Member

Joined: 6/25/12
Posts: 348

10/16/12 5:02:16 PM#34
Originally posted by Robokapp
Originally posted by negativf4kk

Oh stop))) its enought about me))) 

So what u think about "true skill" in pvp?

I think the ability to make split-second decisions that change the outcome of the battle when odds are against you and the traditional routes would lead to failure is a sign of skill.

 

or, perhaps of Talent, I should say.

I agree, but unfortunetly none of modern MMO caters for ur understanding of "true skill". There r some old ones.....but

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  Vidir

Apprentice Member

Joined: 1/14/04
Posts: 966

10/16/12 5:06:45 PM#35
True pvp skill is daring to play the real pvp games and not dragging this into our fantasy games.
  User Deleted
10/16/12 5:12:23 PM#36
Originally posted by Disatisfied9

 (word up G home slice bacon bits!)  

I laughed so hard at this i almost spit out my tea at the monitor LOL!!!

Do I believe I have "true skill"? Only if I can stop laughing at the idea of someone claiming "true skill" in a video game...lol...

Coming from someone who has been there, done that, and come home with a collection of forced rage quitting enemies and top player wins, I can honestly tell you: There is no difference in "player skill" in a game like Counterstrike or Starcraft than any other video game. In fact, most people will probably brag about those two simply for the fact they were so popular.

It's true it's about the same as claiming there's skill involved in the heavily mod'ed heavily macro'd modified by armor stats PVP we see in games like WoW. Just doesn't exist really. I can see that and I don't even pvp....:)

It kindof takes the fun out of competitive play, when you realize you only won due to the person being younger than you, or only lost due to them having hundreds of hours more free time to play their game. 

Exactly, sorta brings perspective to the PVE epeens as well, there's alot of this nonsense about how awesome someone is just because they had more time and less of a real life to spend gathering all the assundry nonsense to put together a legendary. smh

 

 

  User Deleted
10/16/12 5:13:51 PM#37
Originally posted by negativf4kk
Originally posted by Robokapp
Originally posted by negativf4kk

Oh stop))) its enought about me))) 

So what u think about "true skill" in pvp?

I think the ability to make split-second decisions that change the outcome of the battle when odds are against you and the traditional routes would lead to failure is a sign of skill.

 

or, perhaps of Talent, I should say.

I agree, but unfortunetly none of modern MMO caters for ur understanding of "true skill". There r some old ones.....but

GW2 does that just fine, just because the types of pvp are in protest does not discount the fact that there are no special armors or special gears that enhance a players ability to own another player in pvp in GW2, it provides the environment for true skill to occur just fine.

  User Deleted
10/16/12 5:16:59 PM#38

You can demonstrate "skill" within any game genre, or indeed within any game which provides the ability to directly compete with or otherwise compare yourself to another player.

 

That said, some games/mechanics place more emphasis upon player driven differences over and above character driven differences.

 

The usual comment with regards to FPS/RTS et al games in comparison is that at the end of the day, we start with the same stuff and when you die, I have outplayed you. In a progression based game, when you die, I may have also outplayed you, but it may also be the case that I have better character stats/items/skills or some other form of non player specific mechanic disparity (i.e. a level 40 whacking a level 4).

 

You then also have to consider individual mechanics. Consider TAB target vs twitch aim. On a level playing field we may both have the same knowledge of the game, but a twitch system allows the user with that additional skill/proficiency to overcome the opponent.

 

Ultimately though, regardless as to what you are playing, you will encounted "goods" and "bads".

  Quirhid

Hard Core Member

Joined: 1/28/05
Posts: 5515

Correcting wrongs on the Internet...

10/16/12 5:18:17 PM#39
I give 1/10 -> pretty weak.

I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky

  Bathnor

Hard Core Member

Joined: 10/12/09
Posts: 128

10/16/12 5:23:54 PM#40
      "True skill" lol.
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