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The Pub at MMORPG.COM  » The Hilarious Myth of "True Skill" in PvP.

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  User Deleted
 
OP  10/16/12 2:17:50 PM#1

It appears as though I have confused the majority of people here. There is a strict definition between what SOME people claim is "True Skill" (defined as being the only 'real' skill) and my belief, which is that ALL games take Skill. This is not me claiming that PLAYER SKILL is a myth, but that "True Skill" is a myth. The myth is that playing a game like Counterstrike 1.6 or Starcraft does NOT give you "True Skill", while playing any other FPS or RTS game means you "Don't know what TRUE skill is."

In repetitive explanation which is apparently required here: True Skill is defined as more meaningful than other forms of "Skill", whereas a player who plays CS1.6 or SC has "True Skill" while a player who plays any other FPS or RTS game has no idea what "True" or "Real" skill is because they do not play CS1.6 or SC.

THIS IS A CONCEPT, A DISCUSSION OF OTHER'S PERSPECTIVE AND IDEAS-- Not my personal soap box to QQ or Rage that Skill doesn't exist at all, anywhere in gaming. I CANNOT make myself anymore clear.

 

I read in another thread, someone with the perspective that they had "True Skill" because they played "serious" games like CS1.6, Starcraft, and (I have heard many claim before) MOBA game of choice.

I have been gaming for 15 years, ever since I set foot in UO to yell "PK PK PK!" or when I was top dawg (word up G home slice bacon bits!) in Medal of Honor: Allied Assault. To this day, I have never topped my skill in MoH:AA, where I'd have 60:2 kill/death ratio as a teenager...with the most gimped weapon (m1 garand was so gimp...shotgun/bazooka/stg44 so OP, lol)

Do I believe I have "true skill"? Only if I can stop laughing at the idea of someone claiming "true skill" in a video game...lol...

 

Coming from someone who has been there, done that, and come home with a collection of forced rage quitting enemies and top player wins, I can honestly tell you: There is no difference in "player skill" in a game like Counterstrike or Starcraft than any other video game. In fact, most people will probably brag about those two simply for the fact they were so popular.

I submit to you one simple fact: There are desperate housewives who play WoW, who are so much better than you (and me), that they can roflstomp you without even knowing what a FPS, MOBA, or even RTS game is. "True Skill" in a video game is mostly a matter of knowing that game, knowing gaming in general, knowing the genre, and just good ol' fashion experience.

 

It kindof takes the fun out of competitive play, when you realize you only won due to the person being younger than you, or only lost due to them having hundreds of hours more free time to play their game. Occassionally, I will....okay, that's a lie. Very RARELY, I will encounter an equal opponent- someone who isn't thousands of hours obsessed more, or who doesn't have decades less experience in gaming in general. This is when it's a BLAST! You go against them in an FPS, and 1 out of every 10 fights with them- you actually see each other and fight Skill v. Skill. (The other 9, are in reality you killing each other while the other is busy, unaware, etc. Stuff that makes it irrelevant that you have skill, as the environment/situation favors them or you significantly).

Sometimes I would rarely have a match in RTS where the enemy is just as good. These matches last for hours, and are extremely, extremely fun. They aren't roflstomp SouthPark WoW Episode good, and they aren't an easy (boring) faceroll. It's a match that ends with a sliver of victory or defeat, with both parties saying "Great game!" no matter what outcome.

 

  Foomerang

Elite Member

Joined: 11/10/05
Posts: 4656

A man convinced against his will is of the same opinion still

10/16/12 2:29:09 PM#2

The only time ive seen true skill in a player v player video game is virtua fighter 4 tournaments.

If you thought the events were dynamic, you'll think the stories are living.

  defector1968

Novice Member

Joined: 6/16/10
Posts: 400

Real Animal lovers are ONLY the vegetarians

10/16/12 2:30:05 PM#3
true skill in MMOs is to find which class is the OP and play with it all the time
  xmenty

Apprentice Member

Joined: 5/22/10
Posts: 690

10/16/12 2:51:43 PM#4

True Skills are those who are competitive professional gamers.

I don't think online players are skillfull cos of the difference in latency, framerate and hardware for players in different states and countries. 

Unless you won a few gaming competitions then you can talk about skills.

If not than you are just called a forum user with an opinion.

 

Pardon my English as it is not my 1st language :)

  immodium

Elite Member

Joined: 11/03/07
Posts: 1258

10/16/12 2:55:42 PM#5
Originally posted by Disatisfied9

I submit to you one simple fact: There are desperate housewives who play WoW, who are so much better than you (and me), that they can roflstomp you without even knowing what a FPS, MOBA, or even RTS game is. "True Skill" in a video game is mostly a matter of knowing that game, knowing gaming in general, knowing the genre, and just good ol' fashion experience.

 

So any one can be good with practice? Thanks for stating the obvious.

 

And what are you implying in the highlighted part ?  They don't know what genre the game they are skilled at playing belongs to?

  Spennet

Novice Member

Joined: 9/02/05
Posts: 22

10/16/12 3:01:34 PM#6
I'm not really sure what you're trying to say, but I guess it has something to do with your disbelief in the existence of a universal video game skill aka. "true skill". The mastering of any skill can be simplified to the following equation: time x learningfactor = proficiency. This learningfactor is what's generally known as talent - or in this case - "true skill". So the question is: Does this exists across various PvP games? I would say yes. For instance there certainly exist people who learns strategy games faster  than the average individual. That being said, if there exists a pretty large gap between the amount of time two players have dedicated to playing a certain game; the player with the most amount of time spent will probably always beat the other player (unless the other player is the Bob Fischer of video games).
  Robokapp

Elite Member

Joined: 11/15/09
Posts: 4472

The only luck I had today was to have you as my opponent.

10/16/12 3:03:14 PM#7
Op will never recognise true skill even if it's right in front of him...he could be playing chess online with kasparov and laugh at the concept of true skill...

  negativf4kk

Apprentice Member

Joined: 6/25/12
Posts: 318

10/16/12 3:03:46 PM#8

true skill!!!! ROFL

All PC or console games is not a skill. Its more a knowlage base and group co-op. Learn the rulls, colculate the game Dps and heal formula and u set to go. Player 1 press 123, Player 2 press 456.

"True skill " of pressing the buttons. LOL

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  OSF8759

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Joined: 5/27/07
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10/16/12 3:05:30 PM#9
Do not try to pwn the n00b. That's impossible. Instead, only realize the truth. There is no n00b. Then you'll see, that it is not the n00b that is pwnd, it is only yourself.
  fivoroth

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 11/10/06
Posts: 2602

10/16/12 3:08:07 PM#10

So you are saying that because with practice you get better, there's no skill in games? Completely wrong. Skill/mastery/proficiency in something comes with practice.

If I play Mortal Kombat, for example, for 1k hours and go play against someone who played 100 hours and roflstomp them that DOES mean I have more skill than they do! I have practiced more and I am better at that game than them. It's that simple.

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  Thane

Elite Member

Joined: 8/14/03
Posts: 1768

I'm a leaf on the wind. Watch how I soar.

10/16/12 3:09:35 PM#11

if your statement would be true, the skill concept would be faulty in general, out of game too.

 

you say what makes em good is the training, and nothing else.

so everyone can become a professionial soccer-, basket- or football player or even chess player?

it's just about the time spend training?

 

seriously, rethink that, and you will find your error i guess. if not i might comment later again :P

(since it's all about time i will grant you some hehe)

"I'll never grow up, never grow up, never grow up! Not me!"

  immodium

Elite Member

Joined: 11/03/07
Posts: 1258

10/16/12 3:11:41 PM#12
Originally posted by Spennet
I'm not really sure what you're trying to say, but I guess it has something to do with your disbelief in the existence of a universal video game skill aka. "true skill". The mastering of any skill can be simplified to the following equation: time x learningfactor = proficiency. This learningfactor is what's generally known as talent - or in this case - "true skill". So the question is: Does this exists across various PvP games? I would say yes. For instance there certainly exist people who learns strategy games faster  than the average individual. That being said, if there exists a pretty large gap between the amount of time two players have dedicated to playing a certain game; the player with the most amount of time spent will probably always beat the other player (unless the other player is the Bob Fischer of video games).

I'd have to disagree with you. If your highly skilled in RTS games I don't believe you can carry that across to an FPS. It's an entirely different form of thinking.

 

Isn't it like saying you'll instantly be a master scrabble player just because your a master chess player. (both are forms of PvP) Even if you have never touched a scrabble board?

  bubaluba

Novice Member

Joined: 7/23/12
Posts: 464

10/16/12 3:16:25 PM#13
I would rather say OP is posting that thread because he got pawned in pvp from fps to rts. Dude we all know that  psychology  game because we are old gamers and you can show that to small children and not to us.  Wen people get pawned they are angry on all gaming comunity and post like this one is last hope to get some attention. You can try something in real world if you want some harder challenge, for example try  boxing, running, cycling, archery if  gaming is to easy for you.  9-1 yea sure, maybe was my grandpa playing CS
  VengeSunsoar

Hard Core Member

Joined: 3/10/04
Posts: 4688

Be Brief, Be Bright... Be Gone.

10/16/12 3:24:33 PM#14
Originally posted by immodium
Originally posted by Spennet
I'm not really sure what you're trying to say, but I guess it has something to do with your disbelief in the existence of a universal video game skill aka. "true skill". The mastering of any skill can be simplified to the following equation: time x learningfactor = proficiency. This learningfactor is what's generally known as talent - or in this case - "true skill". So the question is: Does this exists across various PvP games? I would say yes. For instance there certainly exist people who learns strategy games faster  than the average individual. That being said, if there exists a pretty large gap between the amount of time two players have dedicated to playing a certain game; the player with the most amount of time spent will probably always beat the other player (unless the other player is the Bob Fischer of video games).

I'd have to disagree with you. If your highly skilled in RTS games I don't believe you can carry that across to an FPS. It's an entirely different form of thinking.

 

Isn't it like saying you'll instantly be a master scrabble player just because your a master chess player. (both are forms of PvP) Even if you have never touched a scrabble board?

 Skill is determined and enhanced by 3 things

1.  Innate ability

2. Practice

3. Cognitive processing.

Any of those three can hamper the upper limit of skill that can be obtained.  #3 can eliminate it entirely.

There is cross-over between sports.  Studies have shown that athletes who play a sport with a ball (say volleyball) do have quicker cross-over abilities and are generally able to pick up another sport that invovles a ball (say basketball) quicker and easier than those who sports doesn't involve a ball (say wrestling).  They are various theories as to why but it is generally believed that the schema motor and cognitive processes developed for one are simliiar nature to the processes that are developed in another so this simply involves retuning the schema vs writing a completely new one.

By that token skill in one video game should translate to skill in another video game provided that they are similar.  things like twich fron one game to another both invovle simliar skills and similar cognitive processing. 

However twitch and RTS don't seem very similar, while there might be similarity in some aspects of the games which could cross-over, that right there is a different beast. 

Quit worrying about other players in a game and just play.

  Greenthingg

Advanced Member

Joined: 10/15/12
Posts: 23

10/16/12 3:24:59 PM#15

There are people that are more skilled than others at video games.  Even after years of practice, some people never learn.

 

I used to be a friggin beast at Street fighter vs Capcom arcade games, back in the days at the old underground arcade, where you'd be PvPing people with nowhere to hide, where respect was earned with real proof in the pudding.

I used to care for my reputation and was really dead serious about that game at the arcade, because there was a real sense of competition.  Nowadays, in MMOs, there's nothing close to it.  The only real fun i've had in MMO PvP was in Warhammer, where my guild group would farm PuG zergs with a 6-12 man, but that was just like what the OP's saying, clubbing baby seals with our decked out characters full of the best IWIN items (most of them duped and exploited, well, I never duped, but people I know gave me all the best stuff lawl, thanks to the terrible Mythic coders).  It was fun, but nowhere near 'skilled PvP' as most would be claiming.

In GW2, there might be a true 'skill' cap for sPvP, the best teams playing to win games, having fantastic strategies to do that, but IMO, the sPvP isn't fun.  It's capture points objectives just dosen't seem appealing to me, since I play to PvP and not to cap flags faster than my ennemy, that's just boring, and I just simply can't get really serious about it.  People can get really good at avoiding fights to cap objectives, and that irritates the shit out of me when I pull a team together to play tournaments.  We killed more, but lost the fight, yeah cool game there Anet.  Some might disagree, but to each their own, I respect that everyone can have different tastes.

 

What I dislike about people claiming to be more skilled than others in MMOs, is the class imbalances and the EPEENERY it creates, and the FOTM classes imbalancing the metagame, and the rinse repeat endless cycle of nerfs and buffs.  Due to those facts, hard to judge real 'skill'.  Same can be said about street fighter games though, they always have imbalance problems.

 

So in short, yes, there are truely more 'skilled' players, but it's hard to meter in MMOs.

  Robokapp

Elite Member

Joined: 11/15/09
Posts: 4472

The only luck I had today was to have you as my opponent.

10/16/12 3:25:18 PM#16
Originally posted by negativf4kk

true skill!!!! ROFL

All PC or console games is not a skill. Its more a knowlage base and group co-op. Learn the rulls, colculate the game Dps and heal formula and u set to go. Player 1 press 123, Player 2 press 456.

"True skill " of pressing the buttons. LOL

your chess skills must be impressive. poker too.

  Spennet

Novice Member

Joined: 9/02/05
Posts: 22

10/16/12 3:26:10 PM#17
Originally posted by immodium
Originally posted by Spennet
I'm not really sure what you're trying to say, but I guess it has something to do with your disbelief in the existence of a universal video game skill aka. "true skill". The mastering of any skill can be simplified to the following equation: time x learningfactor = proficiency. This learningfactor is what's generally known as talent - or in this case - "true skill". So the question is: Does this exists across various PvP games? I would say yes. For instance there certainly exist people who learns strategy games faster  than the average individual. That being said, if there exists a pretty large gap between the amount of time two players have dedicated to playing a certain game; the player with the most amount of time spent will probably always beat the other player (unless the other player is the Bob Fischer of video games).

I'd have to disagree with you. If your highly skilled in RTS games I don't believe you can carry that across to an FPS. It's an entirely different form of thinking.

 

Isn't it like saying you'll instantly be a master scrabble player just because your a master chess player. (both are forms of PvP) Even if you have never touched a scrabble board?

Yes I agree with you. The RTS example was just in that category of games (albeit it was a bit unclear). Across all games though, I would still think there exists certain individuals who can figure out games in general faster than the average individual. However not as noticeable as in one genre though and when you consider games like Dance Dance Revolution vs Europa Universalis the "true skill" probably becomes negligible.

  User Deleted
 
OP  10/16/12 3:28:07 PM#18
Originally posted by SuperDonk
Congrats, you think you're the best gamer ever. Why waste your time posting all of that just for all of us unskilled peons?

Are you offended that I stated I am good at video gaming?

The entire purpose of stating this is to show that the person giving the opinion that "true skill" is a laughable myth, has some validity in what he says.

 

Would you rather a total newb, who loses most games, and sucks at competitive gameplay, state that "true skill" is a myth and pro gamers are a joke? Why would anyone take someone seriously when they are BAD at video games and DONT know what it takes to win, especially in very competitive play? Why would a person of null experience have a valid opinion on a subject?

 

I could care less what anyone here thinks of me, if anyone knows I am good or thinks I am awful. This thread has absolutely NOTHING to do with me. It has to deal with people who believe "true skill" is found in specific games, but not in other games. That somehow Counterstrike is more "serious" than Call of Duty or Tribes. That somehow MOBA games are more involved with player skill than Supreme Commander or Age of Empires 2. That somehow Ultima Online PKing is more serious of a competition than WoW tournaments.

Why do you even mention me at all? Why waste your time replying in an off-topic format, completing ignoring the reality of the topic?

  Dauzqul

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 2/10/12
Posts: 1229

10/16/12 3:29:08 PM#19

There is skill in every game.

 

I used to be a "lan / tournament gamer". I've won cash, towers, CPUs, GPUs, xBox 360, high-end media, etc. In fact, I used some of the money I won to purchase an engagement ring (long time ago).

 

It's obvious that hand-eye coordination is less important in a MMO. However, speed is still very important. Proper hardware and keybindings is a must, e.g., binding all hotbar keys to keystrokes and mouse buttons. You should never have to click on a hotbar. The ability to render frames faster than normal is important, too. The game might not look pretty, but the performance boost with low detail or without shadows allows faster reaction time.

Having the setup is only half the battle. The other half is using your brain - knowing when, what, and where to attack and/or counter-attack.

True Skill in gaming is Speed.

 

 

----

Here's an old tournament shoutcast 1v1 via UT3 if anyone is interested. I don't want to be talking a lot of puff without at least proper reference.

1v1 finals

 

 

 

  User Deleted
 
OP  10/16/12 3:32:34 PM#20
Originally posted by xmenty

True Skills are those who are competitive professional gamers.

I don't think online players are skillfull cos of the difference in latency, framerate and hardware for players in different states and countries. 

Unless you won a few gaming competitions then you can talk about skills.

If not than you are just called a forum user with an opinion.

This is the myth though...

There are hundreds, probably thousands of people who are great gamers, who don't take games too seriously, but are still just as good.

 

Do you truly think that if millions upon millions of people took part in a single tournament, that the winner would be the same as if 100's of people participated?

 

One of the biggest points I made is the fact that no matter how good you are or how long you've played, there is always someone better than you. Even top tournament players have someone better than them.

Heck, there are even super-serious competitions and multi-million dollar tournaments which have nothing to do with "true skill" and instead have EVERYTHING to do with TEAMWORK. There is no "true skill" by a single player in League of Legends. There is teamwork, and champion selection.

 

The purpose of the thread is to enlighten others as to the simple fact: attaching money to it doesn't make it "true" skill. It's still just skill, just the same as anything else.

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