Originally posted by kaiser3282

Originally posted by nariusseldon

Many here complains MMOs are too easy. Many on official MMO forums complains MMOs are too hard  (good example: lots of complains about CATA H dungeons being too difficult and Blizz has to nerf them).

Obviously you can't please everyone.

No longer. D3 is going to get a "monster level" system that you can choose a level of difficulty (1-10 monster power level in D3, but obviously can have as many levels as needed in a game) with more rewards at higher difficulty. The highest level is probably impossible for 99.99% of the players.

It works both in leveling, and end game. This will once and for all, solve the issue. No one can claim the game is too easy, or too hard.

May be this can be used in MMOs, particularly the leveling part, which a lot here think is too easy.

Cool story, except D3 is far from the 1st to have something like this. DDO for example, has a range of difficulties for every instance from solo, normal, hard, and i think elite is the toughest. Doing solo is the easiest but gets you the least rewards, and elite is the toughest but gets you the biggest rewards.

Yeah .. i know about the DDO difficulty too since I played that game on and off.

I think this difficulty choice should be highlighted more, and make it into more games, so no one can complain the game being too easy or too difficult.

There is really no way to make a game good for everyone with one difficulty setting.

Heck, difficulty setting is almost universal in single player games. MMO should take more good ideas from single player games.

Originally posted by nariusseldon

I think this difficulty choice should be highlighted more, and make it into more games, so no one can complain the game being too easy or too difficult.

There is really no way to make a game good for everyone with one difficulty setting.

Heck, difficulty setting is almost universal in single player games. MMO should take more good ideas from single player games.

Actually, I'd argue the exact opposite! There is really no way to make a game good on multiple difficulty settings.

Taking an existing game and making it harder by doubling the number of enemies or the damage they do—or reducing the enemy's numbers or damage—leaves you with a game that had very little thought put into it. It takes a lot of balance to come up with a challenge that feels good when you overcome it. Nudging the numbers up or down to create a new level of challenge can't compare with making a new challenge from scratch.

I guess I could use class design as an example. Imagine if an MMO creator made a bunch of classes and put a lot of work into balancing them and making sure they worked well and were fun to play. Now imagine that they need to create one more class for tanks, so they take an existing class like Monk and create a spin-off tank class that is identical to Monk in every way except that it takes 33% less damage and deals 33% less damage. The class would feel like a total rip-off; it wouldn't be as balanced or fun to play.

That's how I view scaled difficulty as well. The encounters are designed around a certain intended difficulty (whatever the default is), and you risk creating a sloppy and inconsistent experience if you just push the numbers around. On the other hand, if you actually do spend the necessary amount of time balancing each of the 1-10 difficulty levels, you've effectively created the same content 10 times, and it won't be anywhere near as good as if you'd spent all that time on just one difficulty level. In the end, you can create a much better game by saying "Here's the content, take it or leave it" and accepting that only the people who have the appropriate skill level will be 100% satisfied with the experience.

Since that is about instanced gameplay and basically is another way to do difftent "difficluty" instances and many games already have systems in place for that - it is not really something fundamentally new and does not really solve a problem.

Many people complain about open world difficulty and design changes and not about instances. 

nothing to see here, move along...

edit

Originally posted by BadSpock

They either need to

A. completely remove the idea of "content for everyone!" and make certain areas/zones/instances etc. more challenging - and of course NOT require anyone to do them - make it a true choice - but some (probably many) players get jaded and cry elitism and/or favoritism and it doesn't make much business sense to spend hours/days/weeks (lots of $$) on content only a portion of your player base will ever see.

Or

B.truly embrace the "choose your own adventure" mentality - like the WoW dungeons/Raids each with 3 difficulty settings now.

But how do you translate that to the leveling process?

 

I think the "real" answer is

C. bring back the idea of "hardcore" server types.

UO had them, other MMOs of old had them.

Tweak server rules to increase mob health + damage, forcing either A) more player skill or B) forced grouping.

Limit XP rates, set skill caps like they did on UO Siege Perilous.. etc. etc.

And if that server fails to draw enough players to pay to keep it running (which is an old-school concept anyway as I'm sure "modern" MMO server structure is all virtuals and distributed processing (clustered) etc.) just shut it down OMG experiment failed.

Honestly, I feel as though most of these issues would be solved if games both:

A) Absolished the lvling process altogether. Make completing content give other times of rewards (more customization, different skills, gear, etc.) However, this won't stop people from bitching about it.

B) Embrace the idea that challenging content won't be for everyone. Get back to content that is ranged, with some good rewards for people who aren't as skilled, or don't want to learn the more challenging content, then make some cooler looking / more flashy stuff for the more challenging content.

There really aren't many games that have gone this route, but of the few that I've seen, it works. The main caviat is whether or not the general player base will ever support such a shift.

Originally posted by nariusseldon

Many here complains MMOs are too easy. Many on official MMO forums complains MMOs are too hard  (good example: lots of complains about CATA H dungeons being too difficult and Blizz has to nerf them).

Obviously you can't please everyone.

No longer. D3 is going to get a "monster level" system that you can choose a level of difficulty (1-10 monster power level in D3, but obviously can have as many levels as needed in a game) with more rewards at higher difficulty. The highest level is probably impossible for 99.99% of the players.

It works both in leveling, and end game. This will once and for all, solve the issue. No one can claim the game is too easy, or too hard.

May be this can be used in MMOs, particularly the leveling part, which a lot here think is too easy.

Although TSW combat animations have been chastised, as well as the lack of skills you can use at a time, the base strategy for setting up a successful build is still there.  I think this was the right direction to go as far as adding difficulty.  

Rather than up a mobs hit power or hit points, punish the player for not thinking....dont punish them for not hitting hard enough....

And when I say "not thinking" i do not mean add twitch based combat...that would involve the idea that you would not have think, but react.

Make it so that pre-fight preperation is just as important, if not, more important than the actual fight itself.  That is how any sport or war strategy works, so why not use it with a game.

Some older games (AO) played this way and I think TSW does it as well, although I think they could improve upon it (and they are...auxillary weaps and more to come)

Originally posted by phantomghost

The thing is you can't give players the choice.  Most people will do whatever is fastest, a lot of people compete in those aspects.

 

The game needs to be difficult enough on its own that will add length to leveling... the better players (or 1s with more time) will level quicker.  Giving players the choice will not help at all, that is more of a single player game aspect... easy, normal. hard, etc.

than that clearly show that most of these people on the forum screaming about content being too easy, dont reallhy know what they want.

because even if you give them the option to take the harder gameplay on their own, they wont do it.

thats like a hungry man coming to you saying he hungry, you give him the option to come into your house and eat, or stay outside and not eat..

but they choose to stay outside and not eat...

This is meta-gaming that distracts from mmo immersion. Crap like this is what is ruining mmo's.

Mmo's simply need to become smarter, have better AI and create seemless worlds where mechanics are seen less instead of more options for the players. Perhaps auto-scaling options outside the players control but an mmo world should always be about walking into a situation where the parameters of the encounter are as much of a mystery to the player as possible.

The number rule in traditional rpg's is to ensure the rules are as invisible to the players as possible. Mmo's have long forgot this concept and we get min-max, meta-gaming crap themeparks like we have today. Mmo's should be a place a player logs into that is defined entirely by the developers vision with no catering to the crybabies. You should have control over your own character and that's it.  It should be a harsh and scary place full is mystery and adventure. If you won't want that you can always play Wow and the other clones that have since turned into coddle-fests where if things still get too scary you can sit back and play with your dolls in game too.

Originally posted by nariusseldon

I would argue that the complexity aspects you mention (facing/flanking, cover, attacks of opportunity, weapon speed, weapon reach, balance, stamina, weapon durability/breakage, footing/terrain, encumberance, ammunition count, morale, etc) is independent of the complexity.

In D3, it has facing (no flanking), weapon speed (certainly), weapon reach (more like different range of attack), weapon durality (yes), terrain (yes) .. you can hide behind stuff, encumberance (no in weight but in inv slots), no in ammunition count.

Actually i think the stuff you mention is not that interesting. Certainly not as interesting as different combat mechanics (like slow time bubble) like CDs, procs, synergies of skills, monster mechanics (like stuff you need to avoid).

But once again, these are the basics to make a good combat game. The discussion is about variable difficulty level which can be done in a simple game, as well as a complex one (like D3).

I would argue the opposite, because the things you write about do not add any complexity in d3 (or most of them), there is the difference, they are just present, nothing more, take durability, are there weapons/items with low durability but higher stats? Weapon reach, are there weapons which have longer reach but other drawbacks? No there are not. Without the problem, the choice, the drawbacks the player has to consider there is simply no complexity.

Combat intricacies, watching skills light up and pressing them in a specific order and at a specific time might be more interesting to you, but not for everyone. Especially in a game that is less action oriented than a action rpg.

As for your original point of ending the discussion about being too hard or too easy, yes it will end it, but the problem is a great number of those people arguing about too hard too easy just do so becaus of lack of imagination, they will simply use other words, like dull, stupid, shallow...

In the end difficulty is just how spicy/hot a game is, the game has to be tasty (fun), if a food is tasty enough, you will eat it even if it is too hot, if it lacks taste, it does not matter how mild it is. Sure you can placate a few people who like to eat cardboard, but only if it is not spicy, but not much more.

Just look at wow you mention, did lfr help the game in terms of subs, or are just you personally more happy?

(in b4 "The game is getting old since nov 13, 2008")

Flame on!

:)

Originally posted by fenistil

Since that is about instanced gameplay and basically is another way to do difftent "difficluty" instances and many games already have systems in place for that - it is not really something fundamentally new and does not really solve a problem.

Many people complain about open world difficulty and design changes and not about instances. 

No. Plenty of people are screaming how EQ raids were "epic" and new MMOs are cake walk. Secondly, even WOW has only 3 raid difficulties. 10 will do a lot more than 3.

And of course it is not fundamentally new. SP games have difficulties setting for ages. Sandboxes are not fundamentally new .. they failed many years ago .. but are still being talked about here, aren't they?

Originally posted by Tamanous

This is meta-gaming that distracts from mmo immersion. Crap like this is what is ruining mmo's.

 

Mmo's simply need to become smarter, have better AI and create seemless worlds where mechanics are seen less instead of more options for the players. Perhaps auto-scaling options outside the players control but an mmo world should always be about walking into a situation where the parameters of the encounter are as much of a mystery to the player as possible.

 

The number rule in traditional rpg's is to ensure the rules are as invisible to the players as possible. Mmo's have long forgot this concept and we get min-max, meta-gaming crap themeparks like we have today. Mmo's should be a place a player logs into that is defined entirely by the developers vision with no catering to the crybabies. You should have control over your own character and that's it.  It should be a harsh and scary place full is mystery and adventure. If you won't want that you can always play Wow and the other clones that have since turned into coddle-fests where if things still get too scary you can sit back and play with your dolls in game too.

nah ... that is not a good game for many.

Meta gaming is good .. let people choose how to have fun. You forget that the point of any game is to entertain, and NOT to live in another world where you have little control.

Ruining MMOs ... making MMOs into better games may save it.

Originally posted by MMOExposed

Originally posted by phantomghost

The thing is you can't give players the choice.  Most people will do whatever is fastest, a lot of people compete in those aspects.

 

The game needs to be difficult enough on its own that will add length to leveling... the better players (or 1s with more time) will level quicker.  Giving players the choice will not help at all, that is more of a single player game aspect... easy, normal. hard, etc.

than that clearly show that most of these people on the forum screaming about content being too easy, dont reallhy know what they want.

 

because even if you give them the option to take the harder gameplay on their own, they wont do it.

 

thats like a hungry man coming to you saying he hungry, you give him the option to come into your house and eat, or stay outside and not eat..

but they choose to stay outside and not eat...

Yeah .. they are not consistent. And it is not just harder gameplay, it has more rewards too.

Well .. i guess that is their loss. They can scream as they want ... i will be playing D3 1.05 tomorrow.

Originally posted by Banaghran

Just look at wow you mention, did lfr help the game in terms of subs, or are just you personally more happy?

Well, MOP gained back 1M subs .. so did LFR help? May be doing LFR prevent faster slide of subs. We will never know. But we do know that LFD is a popular feature. We do know that there are lots of requests for TOR to add LFD in the beginning.

I think the general issue is that you are trying to treat MMO's the same as Single-Player or Co-Op games. For some types of MMO's and some types of players that can work well for others it just won't. In Single Player games, your experience is designed to affect only you. So ratcheting up or down the difficulty makes no difference to anyone elses play. Some MMO's emulate that to a certain degree and some MMO players enjoy that type of game.

The fundemental disconnect you are having is that certain types of MMO's and certain types of MMO players it's actualy a DESIRABLE design feature that one persons play effects the others. Lets look at it like baseball...

When you are in a batting cage by yourself you can set the speed of the pitches coming at you to any speed you like. That's fine, because the batting cage is all about you getting the individual experience you want. It's not designed or intended that what you experience effects the guy in the next cage over.

However, a baseball game is designed and intended as a COMMUNAL EXPERIENCE. That's actualy why some people choose to play it rather then just going to the batting cages....it's all about our play interacting with each other. Even when we are on the same team, I don't want the pitcher throwing you 40 mph pitches because you like easy pitches that you can hit when he's throwing me 85 mph pitches. For me that trivializes our efforts as a team and it also warps the sense of contribution that we both make. I want the pitcher throwing just as hard at you as he does me, because the sense of accomplishment I derive is both us working together as a team to achieve and the sense of individual contribution I made toward that goal.

If you really don't want to play at that level...that's fine...everyone derives thier entertainment differently....but I really want you going to a less competitive/more casual league rather then cranking the pitch speed down to slow when your at bat on my team.

That sentiment is even agnostic to the TYPE of difficulty we are talking about....whether it's complexity of the game, sophiistication of mob behavior or raw power level of mobs.

I think that you are failing to get that because, from my past impressions, you basicaly want to play a single-player,  MOBA or small co-op game that is sheathed in the trappings of an MMO.....and variable difficulty settings work pretty well for that. They really don't for what others are looking at when they think "MMO".

Originally posted by nariusseldon

Many here complains MMOs are too easy. Many on official MMO forums complains MMOs are too hard  (good example: lots of complains about CATA H dungeons being too difficult and Blizz has to nerf them).

Obviously you can't please everyone.

No longer. D3 is going to get a "monster level" system that you can choose a level of difficulty (1-10 monster power level in D3, but obviously can have as many levels as needed in a game) with more rewards at higher difficulty. The highest level is probably impossible for 99.99% of the players.

It works both in leveling, and end game. This will once and for all, solve the issue. No one can claim the game is too easy, or too hard.

May be this can be used in MMOs, particularly the leveling part, which a lot here think is too easy.

It wouldnt work. We are greedy and would play on the highest loot factor. Those who dont beat those dungeons will whine like girls and then quit.

I mean GW2 put its difficulty into explorable dungeons, the entire open world is easy and still there are loads of complains, "the best loot are in those dungeons" and so on.

It might just work for D3 (even though I aint betting on it there either) because D3 is actually supposed to be really hard and cateers to different players.

Games just need to stick to a target audience.

Gamer A wants a game where everything is easy with little effort...play GW2

Gamer B wants a game where it takes many many months to level to cap....play old school EQ or something akin to that.

Gamer C wants a game where pvp is the main focus....Eve or GW

Gamers need to stop trying to play games that do not offer them the experience they are looking for.

 Way too much bickering goes on in games where the game tries to be everything to everyone to try and make the almighty dollar.

Originally posted by nariusseldon

Originally posted by fenistil

Since that is about instanced gameplay and basically is another way to do difftent "difficluty" instances and many games already have systems in place for that - it is not really something fundamentally new and does not really solve a problem.

Many people complain about open world difficulty and design changes and not about instances. 

No. Plenty of people are screaming how EQ raids were "epic" and new MMOs are cake walk. Secondly, even WOW has only 3 raid difficulties. 10 will do a lot more than 3.

And of course it is not fundamentally new. SP games have difficulties setting for ages. Sandboxes are not fundamentally new .. they failed many years ago .. but are still being talked about here, aren't they?

I said many people complain not all people complain about open world.   Besides I was not talking about sandboxes, I was talking about difficulty in open world.   That involve non-sandboxes as well.  Failed?  EVE is going fine. UO was going fine for years. SWG was going fine for ~2 years, until they changed in to themepark , then 90% players left almost overnight. 

Obviously sandboxes were only mainstream till WoW came.  After WoW did and took mmoprg's to new levels of popularity they became niche in mmoprg's and noone say they did not.  Anyway we don't talk about sandboxes here.

Making 10 and not 3 difficulties 'settings' of instances will do less than do you think imho.

Still my bottom point was to comment my personal opinion on your propositon.  I don't see any real advantage to be honest.

What would be great is diffrent difficulty servers having whole world and it's instances on other level of difficulty than other servers. 

Additionally it will be harder and harder for game companies to do 'big huge' mmorpg that will be attractive for many people.  WoW is phenonenon and alot of it's players play because of what they already invested in it and because of it's accumulated amount of content, communities, addons, low system requirements. etc

If you would create today WoW 2 with today design - most people would blown through it and it would not capitave that big audience.

If you would create today WoW 2 with vanilla design - most peope would complain about long-levelling, too much group content, "hardcore" gameplay,  not-enough hand-holding, etc

Difftent games for difftent people.  Creating mmoprg's for alot of vrey difftent players is hard and with high-failure rate and that will only get worse. 

People don't want to go on compromises in new games.

Originally posted by nariusseldon

Originally posted by Banaghran

Just look at wow you mention, did lfr help the game in terms of subs, or are just you personally more happy?

Well, MOP gained back 1M subs .. so did LFR help? May be doing LFR prevent faster slide of subs. We will never know. But we do know that LFD is a popular feature. We do know that there are lots of requests for TOR to add LFD in the beginning.

 

 

Expansions do that, how the trend will be half a year from realease is important.

As for the rest, i was not attacking lfr as a lobby concept, but as another difficulty, even if you will again post your usual percentages, my point was that the difficulty is not the main issue.

Flame on!

:)

Originally posted by Loke666

Originally posted by nariusseldon

Many here complains MMOs are too easy. Many on official MMO forums complains MMOs are too hard  (good example: lots of complains about CATA H dungeons being too difficult and Blizz has to nerf them).

Obviously you can't please everyone.

No longer. D3 is going to get a "monster level" system that you can choose a level of difficulty (1-10 monster power level in D3, but obviously can have as many levels as needed in a game) with more rewards at higher difficulty. The highest level is probably impossible for 99.99% of the players.

It works both in leveling, and end game. This will once and for all, solve the issue. No one can claim the game is too easy, or too hard.

May be this can be used in MMOs, particularly the leveling part, which a lot here think is too easy.

It wouldnt work. We are greedy and would play on the highest loot factor. Those who dont beat those dungeons will whine like girls and then quit.

I mean GW2 put its difficulty into explorable dungeons, the entire open world is easy and still there are loads of complains, "the best loot are in those dungeons" and so on.

It might just work for D3 (even though I aint betting on it there either) because D3 is actually supposed to be really hard and cateers to different players.

It *is* working for D3. You choose you level based on how fast you want to kill, balanced with your gear and your desire for the level for drop.

It went live yesterday and i saw people forming groups at different difficulties.

Most MMO end game is not that different from D3 anyway. You form a small group and kill stuff in a dungeon for good loot. The whole concept will just apply.