I'm kinda feeling it too but from a different angle.  I don't care so much about the stats so much as I feel there is a bit of monotony with the armor designs.  I am a Norn ranger, level 59 and there have been some nice armor graphics but nothing that really jumps out at me.  I don't really care for the transmutation stones.  I'd rather have cosmetic armor tabs.

I wish armor was treated more like DCUO where you unlock and armor skin and can use it whenever.  That was hella cool.  But I probably should just be grateful that you can change the color of your armor at will.

Originally posted by Terranah

I'm kinda feeling it too but from a different angle.  I don't care so much about the stats so much as I feel there is a bit of monotony with the armor designs.  I am a Norn ranger, level 59 and there have been some nice armor graphics but nothing that really jumps out at me.  I don't really care for the transmutation stones.  I'd rather have cosmetic armor tabs.

 

I wish armor was treated more like DCUO where you unlock and armor skin and can use it whenever.  That was hella cool.  But I probably should just be grateful that you can change the color of your armor at will.

There was a thread some time ago about this. It was proven that there are several sets per lvl bracket, they are just hard to find.

When a big part of the game is about collecting skins this is understandable. Dont expect the skins to drop on your feet, if you wana look unique search for those special skins around the world. Believe me, they are there.

Not only GW2 has bosses that can wipe a screen full of characters, GW2 dungeons will spawn a ton of trash mobs that can each one of them individually wipe a full party of players.

And on top of that the room will be filled with traps that can easily kill you.

Yeah the first time you do those things it feels Anet is full of sadomasochist people.

Sigh these comments of "without trinity you can't spawn a ton of mobs".... One just needs to do the first dungeon and see gravelings filling your entire screen in the explorablemods.

Originally posted by austriacus

...

There was a thread some time ago about this. It was proven that there are several sets per lvl bracket, they are just hard to find.

When a big part of the game is about collecting skins this is understandable. Dont expect the skins to drop on your feet, if you wana look unique search for those special skins around the world. Believe me, they are there.

Their system is rather flawed. Since you don't have a slot for cosmetic armor, if you want to both mainain stats and have different looks, it means that you will constantly need to break two set of armors. It's a convolted system, but I guess it's here to stay as long as transmutation stones and gold is sold in the cash shop.

Originally posted by Randayn
Same issue...I guess Im just supposed to have fun, but achievement is why I have fun, and I just dont feel it in GW2.

The fact that many, many people are like you just FLIES past GW2 promoters who claim we all just need to learn how to have fun.

Weird, I'm a Mez and ive not found a single other mez that is even close to my build are play even closely to me. They attack is way diffferent and, so are rest of their stats.

My traits are different as well and so on.

So ive not had this problems, maybe your friends gear do teh same stats and maybe they got close to teh same utilities.

The game is WoW without the difficulty and sense of achievement. That's why. Like i've said 10000 times before. Its a theme park released in an age where there are already better theme parks...

GW2 is like the Knotts Berry Farms of MMOs. It sucks and Id rather just go to Disneyland.

Originally posted by Drolkin

 

As far as everyone having the same wheel in TSW thats the same thing as saying everyone has access to the same classes in GW2, the only difference is you don't gotta switch characters to switch your build in TSW, oh and lets not forget there is what 100x more skill combos in TSW then GW2?  ^ . -

The problem with GW2 is it's B2P, you buy it, you hit 80, you quit, there is no monthly updates, theres gonna be nothing new until a expansion and that is far-far away.  No monthly fee?  ?ou can go back any time?  Who cares?  I have Ninentedo games from 1986 I can go back to play at any time.  =) 

New York Raid comes out next month in TSW, Tokyo on its way in 2013 which is Funcoms most expensive project on the game, and what does GW2 have in that time frame?  Maybe some bug fixes?  Yawn. 

P2P wins.

 

 

I like these claims that TSW has a ton more skills to choose from than GW2, like 525 skills and whatnot.

Of course half of them are passives.

Let me see, can Gw2 have a passive skill system?

Hmm...

Apparently it is this little feature called traits...

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Traits

So each class has 5 lines with 12 major traits and 3 minor traits. So that is 75 "passive skills" per class, so just in passive skills GW2 has 600 "skills".

Originally posted by MindTrigger

I wasn't referring only to RP elements.  I was referring to having the freedom to build and play a much more unique character in general.  These games slam everyone into a few boring classes we've seen a hundred times, then maybe give you a tree or wheel to "customize" with.  I just don't think it's good enough, and people are clearly growing sick of it.  What passes for customization today sucks, IMO.

However, with more options there are more chances for people to make unique characters that are not only their own in soul, but also remembered by other players in the game.  Some of the characters who had the largest impact on me in older games were crafters and other social players.  Had nothing to do with RP, which I rarely ever do unless a game makes it feel natural (like SWG did).

I didnt mean it as actually RPing your toon. Just that you have the freedom to do things to establish an identity for yourself that is not determined by the game itself, but by how you play it, which themeparks dont allow you to do much of. Was just using the examples of playing opposite sides of good & evil as a point. I know what you mean with the crafting and stuff. I was that guy, especially in DF where my clan & alliance knew if they wanted good enchantments and stuff I was the guy to go see. Same with my bro and a friend. We split ourselves up between enchanting & alchemy (for staves), armorsmithing, and weaponsmithing and were known as the 3 man providers for everyones gear and had teams of people that would turn over all their resources & mats to us so we could keep pumping stuff out.

Before anyone says it. Yes, I know you will have main crafters and such in guilds in themeparks as well. But when it comes to sandboxes, where the entire economy and nearly everything useful revolves around player created stuff, it's a whole lot different.

Originally posted by deamian

actually looking for positive feedback

 Joe bob who has played the mmo genre for a week has an elementalist who hits something for 2000 damage, and billy mmo johnson, yes his middle name has actually been changed to mmo, has played for ever, has the exact same character, and hits for the exact same amount because, every stat means something and all of the armor is the same.

Any tips to get out of the giant pot of everyone is exactly the same? I've always felt way more individualized in the other mmo's i've played, except in wow i looked like every other warrior because the artists are lazy :) Again the visual styles etc in gw2 are awesome, but I don't feel I can push my character stat wise i guess

 

well when i log in WvW or in sPvP and i see someone who is able to survive or count alone against 2-3 ppl then i realize (i suppose he also) that he is a good player and a true mastah :p

in that case what ever armor he wears its just another fabulus coffin for me :P

i havent searched very well and how you get items in WvW (except the merchants next the portal.. ) but in sPvP you have access to awesome armors as you get high lvl, much better than an icon in Warcraft III xD

Originally posted by Gaia_Hunter

Not only GW2 has bosses that can wipe a screen full of characters, GW2 dungeons will spawn a ton of trash mobs that can each one of them individually wipe a full party of players.

And on top of that the room will be filled with traps that can easily kill you.

Yeah the first time you do those things it feels Anet is full of sadomasochist people.

 

Sigh these comments of "without trinity you can't spawn a ton of mobs".... One just needs to do the first dungeon and see gravelings filling your entire screen in the explorablemods.

I just love how so many people on these forums either take or put words into my mouth.

ANY game can put a bunch of 1 shotting mobs, a 1 shotting boss and traps in a room.  Not every developer can coordinate it in such a way that you need specific types (trinity) to control the situation and defeat it.  Not every developer can give the trash mobs "brains" to force the trinity and not every developer can create a boss that must be directed by a TANK, or there will be death to all.

Sure, you can form a strategy without a trinity, but with the trinity, both the raid/dungeon group and the encounter have an extensive strategy, with more than 1 level of "how to".

Originally posted by Aerowyn

Originally posted by stevebmbsqd

 

Really the large world events and fights are not complex on any level. I really wish people would stop comparing them to raids, because they are far from it. They take very little coordination. Your average WoW raid requires voice chat and a large amount of team play to be successful. GW2 is a lot of things, but a complex teamplay game it is not when it comes to PvE.

where did a say it was complex? all I was stating is large epic events do work with a non trinity system and are fun and enjoyable

And what I was saying, although you completely missed it, is that GW2 dungeons/world bosses lack complexity because of the removal of the Trinity.  So you agree with me then?

Originally posted by Randayn

Originally posted by Gaia_Hunter

Not only GW2 has bosses that can wipe a screen full of characters, GW2 dungeons will spawn a ton of trash mobs that can each one of them individually wipe a full party of players.

And on top of that the room will be filled with traps that can easily kill you.

Yeah the first time you do those things it feels Anet is full of sadomasochist people.

 

Sigh these comments of "without trinity you can't spawn a ton of mobs".... One just needs to do the first dungeon and see gravelings filling your entire screen in the explorablemods.

I just love how so many people on these forums either take or put words into my mouth.

 

ANY game can put a bunch of 1 shotting mobs, a 1 shotting boss and traps in a room.  Not every developer can coordinate it in such a way that you need specific types (trinity) to control the situation and defeat it.  Not every developer can give the trash mobs "brains" to force the trinity and not every developer can create a boss that must be directed by a TANK, or there will be death to all.

Sure, you can form a strategy without a trinity, but with the trinity, both the raid/dungeon group and the encounter have an extensive strategy, with more than 1 level of "how to".

I didn't quote you or anyone else.

So are you implying Anet didn't put a tank in GW2 because it doesn't know how to?

You are funny especially because in most those games there isn't even a physics engine that allows shots to be blocked by bodies, sllow skills to be used without target or out of range. Yeah, programmin a skill that forces the boss to target player A is LEET PROGRAMMING.

The core strategy of a trinity group is always 1 tank take the brunt of the damage because no one else can - you can't remove it. If you remove it you have GW2 where the players need to use their individual tools and their collective tools to sustain damage that in other games is done to a pre defined target.

In GW2 there is no pre-defined strategy because you don't know if the boss will tag me and follow me to the beggining of the dungeon or if will shoot thst other guy over there, you just have to know what to do in all circumstances.

In GW2 there is no pre-defined strategy because you don't know if the boss will tag me and follow me to the beggining of the dungeon or if will shoot thst other guy over there, you just have to know what to do in all circumstances.

 

My bad, I actually did say exactly what you quoted at the beginning of this post, but added a bit more explanation to it.  Thought you were quoting me.

With this statement though, you openly admitting that there is no strategy to the dungeons...this is because there is no trinity.  Im not saying the ANET devs are bad...that would be a stupid statement on my part.  What I did say, is that removing the trinity, whether intentional or un-intentional, allows the devs to be lazy when creating a dungeon.  There is no need to create strategery, because you can't.  Instead the strategery has been rested souly upon the player.  This can lead to a more watered down experience, maybe not as an individual dungeon, but as a group of dungeons, because the strat will always be the same...find who's broke and fix them, find who's dead and rez them, dps, run in front of the mob if you have alot of health to avoid anyone else being hit.  It's 1 level of strat that really never changes throughout.

With trinity, there can be countless levels of strategy, including (what WoW was known for before it kiddified) several different stages of a boss fight.  There is no room for that when removing the trinity.

Originally posted by Randayn

In GW2 there is no pre-defined strategy because you don't know if the boss will tag me and follow me to the beggining of the dungeon or if will shoot thst other guy over there, you just have to know what to do in all circumstances.

 

My bad, I actually did say exactly what you quoted at the beginning of this post, but added a bit more explanation to it.  Thought you were quoting me.

 

With this statement though, you openly admitting that there is no strategy to the dungeons...this is because there is no trinity.  Im not saying the ANET devs are bad...that would be a stupid statement on my part.  What I did say, is that removing the trinity, whether intentional or un-intentional, allows the devs to be lazy when creating a dungeon.  There is no need to create strategery, because you can't.  Instead the strategery has been rested souly upon the player.  This can lead to a more watered down experience, maybe not as an individual dungeon, but as a group of dungeons, because the strat will always be the same...find who's broke and fix them, find who's dead and rez them, dps, run in front of the mob if you have alot of health to avoid anyone else being hit.  It's 1 level of strat that really never changes throughout.

With trinity, there can be countless levels of strategy, including (what WoW was known for before it kiddified) several different stages of a boss fight.  There is no room for that when removing the trinity.

I dont think you understand what the trinity is, and how it works. It relies on 1 strategy, that is it. You have someone, a tank, who taunts to keep mobs off softer targets, a healer who focuses on keeping that tank alive and if needed tossing a few heals on the DPS who pull aggro long enough to get hit, and dps who obviously does the damage.

Thats the ENTIRE strategy. Yes you can have mechanics thrown in that can do something like wipe an entire group at once, or some slight puzzle mechanics (like needing to damage the boss at a particular location, or do differen types of damage at different times, etc), but the ovrall strategy is extremely simpl, and predetermined. You know who the tank is, and what theyre doing. You know who the healer is, and what theyre doing. You know who the DPS is and what theyre doing. All of it planned out before the fight even begins.

With a non-trinity system like in GW2, you dont have that "we already know exactly whats going to happen" thing going on. Every fight can play out differently. Does that mean theres no strategy? No. It just means you need to be able to change your strategy on the fly. Just like real battle. Is war 100% predictable? No. Do combatants change up their strategies and tactics throughout each battle depending on circumstance? Yes.

You can try to plan ahead, and be very well prepared, but with out those trinity mechanics such as taunting and pure healers, there is no way to be sure that you can stick with that single strategy of "you do this, you do that, and ill do this" through the entire fight. The guy who was supposed to be DPS might get aggro early on and you have no way of ensuring you can pull the boss off him, so that guy suddenly finds himself having to do something like switch to a sword an shield that will give him more defensive capabilities. Now to make up for the loss in damage, and lack of need for defense, the guy who was supposed to be trying to "tank" the boss can switch to purely damage. Or if needed he can try to throw out some heals that will help keep the guy with aggro alive. Or if the guy with aggro is surviving just fine everyone in the group can focus on DPS and not have to waste time with heals / buffs, or whatever.

It's a constantly changing and rotating thing with less predictability. Adapt as needed, or die.

Trinity usually requires no adapting, just making sure you know ahead of time what steps are required, and then following those steps, exactly the same as every time you or everyone else has done it succesfully before with that same group makeup. Something like multiple stages doesnt make it more complex, or strategic. The strategy is the same in every stage. You might stand in different places or whatever, but everyones job stays the same.

 

You can try to plan ahead, and be very well prepared, but with out those trinity mechanics such as taunting and pure healers, there is no way to be sure that you can stick with that single strategy of "you do this, you do that, and ill do this" through the entire fight. The guy who was supposed to be DPS might get aggro early on and you have no way of ensuring you can pull the boss off him, so that guy suddenly finds himself having to do something like switch to a sword an shield that will give him more defensive capabilities. Now to make up for the loss in damage, and lack of need for defense, the guy who was supposed to be trying to "tank" the boss can switch to purely damage. Or if needed he can try to throw out some heals that will help keep the guy with aggro alive. Or if the guy with aggro is surviving just fine everyone in the group can focus on DPS and not have to waste time with heals / buffs, or whatever.

It's a constantly changing and rotating thing with less predictability. Adapt as needed, or die.

Trinity usually requires no adapting, just making sure you know ahead of time what steps are required, and then following those steps, exactly the same as every time you or everyone else has done it succesfully before with that same group makeup. Something like multiple stages doesnt make it more complex, or strategic. The strategy is the same in every stage. You might stand in different places or whatever, but everyones job stays the same.

Again...This can lead to a more watered down experience, maybe not as an individual dungeon, but as a group of dungeons, because the strat will always be the same...find who's broke and fix them, find who's dead and rez them, dps, run in front of the mob if you have alot of health to avoid anyone else being hit.  It's 1 level of strat that really never changes throughout.

Here is an easy run-down of why the trinity allows itself to complexity and strategy more than no trinity

Tank

Off-Tank

Heals

Off-heals

Big heals

HoT heals

Support

Ranged DPS

DPS

When creating a raid or dungeon boss, you have all these things you must account for and build a boss around.

when removing the trinity, now you have dps/support...that's it.  sure some have some heals, some have more HP when they switch, but there is no true class...just a hodge podge of players with different skills firing off their attacks, buffs and support abilities as when group needs it....It's more like the group against themselves rather than the group against a boss mob.  There is MUCH less to work with for the devs, in other words.

Originally posted by GeezerGamer

Originally posted by Aerowyn

Originally posted by GeezerGamer

 

I've explained it. The implementation chosen requires each player be fully aware of every other player in the group. That's for the dungeons. As group sizes would increase, so would the demand for awareness placed on each player in the team. The burden would exceed the abilities of the average gamer. It's just info overload. That's why we have roles in traditional groups. I don't have a way for the non trinity system to work. I have a hard time seeing it, but I'll accept it's possible. But of what i've seen in it's current implementation, I think we are at about the limit of what a coordinated group can be before that coordination breaks down. And the evidence is present. Look at the big raid fights. They are lacklustre at best.

think about this for a second.. look at the 5 man dungeons in this game currently and how many issues people so stuck on trinity games are having.. now imagine if they made the open world bosses complex encounters people would be having a field day as they could not complete the content.. open world stuff should be more accessable this way imho.. But now saying that look what happens once a good group knows the dungeons in this game... they are blazing through them in 30 min which would take others hours to get through... now look at the scenario i typed above why would something like that not work with a well coordinated raid in this type of game?

also i'd try the dragon fights now when the areas are not completely oversaturated with people like they were couple weeks ago they are a LOT more fun

Your key words are "good group" That's where it falls apart. Hell it's hard enough in the trinity. Much less a game with increased siuational awareness requirements. I think it's more the human factor when I am talking about the least common denominator. Most just won't get it

 

I'm having trouble with you thoughts on this.  But shouldn't a "good group" be the ones that succeed in ANY dungeon, even raid dungeons for trinity games?  I'm not talking about a "great group" or an "amazing group" or a "flawless group" here.  But I'm talking about a group with basic knowledge of the encounters who are all responsive and aware of the fights to a degree that a "good" player will have.  Not an average or weak player.  Because those players should not be able to get through the tough stuff in any MMO game, or any game actually.  I believe that if a player wants to succeed in an MMO, or any game for that matter, they should at least take some time to study how the game works, such as encounters in a dungeon, and I'm not talking like ridiculous amounts, but gathering a basic understanding of the game should be key to succeeding in it.  I would be highly highly dissapointed in any game that I can just jump in and without much effort at all, breeze my way through it...*cough* Diablo 3 *cough*.  

So your saying that because MOST players would not have the proper situational awareness requirements that a dungeon with more than 5 player cap (a raid dungeon) in GW2 would fail?  That tells me a couple things.  First off, your  pretty much insulting gamers intelligence on a pretty large scale (although there are some cases where I wouldn't dissagree with you on this point, lol)  and secondly, that you believe that difficult games should not be made because the majority of players wouldn't be able to complete them because they lack the "good player" quality to do it.  And that's just a silly notion in it's own right.

GW2's lack of the trinity system is a breakthrough in MMO gaming, and this being the first game of it's kind, I can understand some skepticism in believeing that it can achieve the things that the holy trinity has achieved.  But to believe that it CANNOT achieve those things straight up, is downright naive and incredibly close minded.

Originally posted by Randayn

 

You can try to plan ahead, and be very well prepared, but with out those trinity mechanics such as taunting and pure healers, there is no way to be sure that you can stick with that single strategy of "you do this, you do that, and ill do this" through the entire fight. The guy who was supposed to be DPS might get aggro early on and you have no way of ensuring you can pull the boss off him, so that guy suddenly finds himself having to do something like switch to a sword an shield that will give him more defensive capabilities. Now to make up for the loss in damage, and lack of need for defense, the guy who was supposed to be trying to "tank" the boss can switch to purely damage. Or if needed he can try to throw out some heals that will help keep the guy with aggro alive. Or if the guy with aggro is surviving just fine everyone in the group can focus on DPS and not have to waste time with heals / buffs, or whatever.

It's a constantly changing and rotating thing with less predictability. Adapt as needed, or die.

Trinity usually requires no adapting, just making sure you know ahead of time what steps are required, and then following those steps, exactly the same as every time you or everyone else has done it succesfully before with that same group makeup. Something like multiple stages doesnt make it more complex, or strategic. The strategy is the same in every stage. You might stand in different places or whatever, but everyones job stays the same.

Again...This can lead to a more watered down experience, maybe not as an individual dungeon, but as a group of dungeons, because the strat will always be the same...find who's broke and fix them, find who's dead and rez them, dps, run in front of the mob if you have alot of health to avoid anyone else being hit.  It's 1 level of strat that really never changes throughout.

Here is an easy run-down of why the trinity allows itself to complexity and strategy more than no trinity

Tank

Off-Tank

Heals

Off-heals

Big heals

HoT heals

Support

Ranged DPS

DPS

When creating a raid or dungeon boss, you have all these things you must account for and build a boss around.

when removing the trinity, now you have dps/support...that's it.  sure some have some heals, some have more HP when they switch, but there is no true class...just a hodge podge of players with different skills firing off their attacks, buffs and support abilities as when group needs it....It's more like the group against themselves rather than the group against a boss mob.  There is MUCH less to work with for the devs, in other words.

All of those roles are sub-roles within the larger roles. Theres a reason its called trinity. 3 things: Tank, healer, dps. They may perform each of those roles in slightly different ways, but it is still that same role.

Those same sub-roles also exist in GW2, except there is no taunting mechanic, and the roles are possible with any class through using specific builds rather than being limited ot a specific class. Thing is, being non-trinity does not mean roles suddenly stop existing. Its more that the system does not completely revolve around needing to fill all 3 of those roles in order to succeed, and that each of those roles can be filled by anyone.

Healing for example. Some classes use big heals, some use HoTs, some use a mix.

All classes have some form of support through buffs, barriers, etc.

"Tanky" or defensive builds mean different things to different classes. For some its higher defense / toughness. For some its HP. For some its using "pets" to aggro and take the hits. For some its using things like invulnerability or mist form to completely avoid taking damage.

All classes also have both ranged and melee DPS capability.

The biggest seperation between trinity and non-trinity is the lack of an actual taunt / aggro gain mechanic. This lack of taunt makes combat more unpredictable, and more challenging for devs to balance.

Think of it like this. In a game like WoW, groups pretty much require filling X number of spots with X role. Without something fairly close to that setup, youre not expected to be able to succeed. They basically need to design the entire encounter around that 1 specific setup with a slight range to compensate for something like no off-tank and an extra DPS instead of that off-tank, or whatever. Do you think they actually balance the damage a boss does based on EVERY class? NO. They base it on what tanks are capable of handling, because the tanks should be the only one taking hits. Do they base the health, defense, and regen based on every player possibly dealing lots of damage? No. They base it mainly on what the highest DPS classes will be capable of.

In GW2s case, you can run a dungeon with a much wider variety of group setups. They have to take into consideration, and balance for every possible build of each class as well as any mixed number of any of those classes being together. You could run a dungeon in GW2 with 5 elementalists, or 5 rangers, or 5 warriors if you want. The devs have to consider those options, and the way in which each class performs the different roles.. In WoW, you couldnt run a dungeon / raid made up completely of mages or rogues. They dont even consider allowing that option, and so designing it for that group is not done.

If WoW were to suddenly put in a patch that removed the ability to tant / gain aggro from tanks, they would need to completely redesign every encounter to account for a wider variety of groups because the system no longer relies on that system of "We know who is going to get hit every time and roughly how damage they can take".

Originally posted by Randayn

What I did say, is that removing the trinity, whether intentional or un-intentional, allows the devs to be lazy when creating a dungeon.  There is no need to create strategery, because you can't.  Instead the strategery has been rested souly upon the player.  This can lead to a more watered down experience, maybe not as an individual dungeon, but as a group of dungeons, because the strat will always be the same...find who's broke and fix them, find who's dead and rez them, dps, run in front of the mob if you have alot of health to avoid anyone else being hit.  It's 1 level of strat that really never changes throughout.

With trinity, there can be countless levels of strategy, including (what WoW was known for before it kiddified) several different stages of a boss fight.  There is no room for that when removing the trinity.

what are you talking about?

if boss has different abilities -- there will be different tactics

you make no mention of player synergy, combo fields, in GW2

the watered down is your perception

anyone could "simplify" trinity combat as always being the same

tank taunt the mob, healer give primary heals to the tank, dps do your damage, rez players if they die, repair your armor

trinity is not more strategic - just a different playstyle

Originally posted by kaiser3282

The biggest seperation between trinity and non-trinity is the lack of an actual taunt / aggro gain mechanic. This lack of taunt makes combat more unpredictable, and more challenging for devs to balance.

agree

Originally posted by slicknslim88

Originally posted by GeezerGamer

Originally posted by Aerowyn

Originally posted by GeezerGamer

 

I've explained it. The implementation chosen requires each player be fully aware of every other player in the group. That's for the dungeons. As group sizes would increase, so would the demand for awareness placed on each player in the team. The burden would exceed the abilities of the average gamer. It's just info overload. That's why we have roles in traditional groups. I don't have a way for the non trinity system to work. I have a hard time seeing it, but I'll accept it's possible. But of what i've seen in it's current implementation, I think we are at about the limit of what a coordinated group can be before that coordination breaks down. And the evidence is present. Look at the big raid fights. They are lacklustre at best.

think about this for a second.. look at the 5 man dungeons in this game currently and how many issues people so stuck on trinity games are having.. now imagine if they made the open world bosses complex encounters people would be having a field day as they could not complete the content.. open world stuff should be more accessable this way imho.. But now saying that look what happens once a good group knows the dungeons in this game... they are blazing through them in 30 min which would take others hours to get through... now look at the scenario i typed above why would something like that not work with a well coordinated raid in this type of game?

also i'd try the dragon fights now when the areas are not completely oversaturated with people like they were couple weeks ago they are a LOT more fun

Your key words are "good group" That's where it falls apart. Hell it's hard enough in the trinity. Much less a game with increased siuational awareness requirements. I think it's more the human factor when I am talking about the least common denominator. Most just won't get it

 

I'm having trouble with you thoughts on this.  But shouldn't a "good group" be the ones that succeed in ANY dungeon, even raid dungeons for trinity games?  I'm not talking about a "great group" or an "amazing group" or a "flawless group" here.  But I'm talking about a group with basic knowledge of the encounters who are all responsive and aware of the fights to a degree that a "good" player will have.  Not an average or weak player.  Because those players should not be able to get through the tough stuff in any MMO game, or any game actually.  I believe that if a player wants to succeed in an MMO, or any game for that matter, they should at least take some time to study how the game works, such as encounters in a dungeon, and I'm not talking like ridiculous amounts, but gathering a basic understanding of the game should be key to succeeding in it.  I would be highly highly dissapointed in any game that I can just jump in and without much effort at all, breeze my way through it...*cough* Diablo 3 *cough*.  

So your saying that because MOST players would not have the proper situational awareness requirements that a dungeon with more than 5 player cap (a raid dungeon) in GW2 would fail?  That tells me a couple things.  First off, your  pretty much insulting gamers intelligence on a pretty large scale (although there are some cases where I wouldn't dissagree with you on this point, lol)  and secondly, that you believe that difficult games should not be made because the majority of players wouldn't be able to complete them because they lack the "good player" quality to do it.  And that's just a silly notion in it's own right.

GW2's lack of the trinity system is a breakthrough in MMO gaming, and this being the first game of it's kind, I can understand some skepticism in believeing that it can achieve the things that the holy trinity has achieved.  But to believe that it CANNOT achieve those things straight up, is downright naive and incredibly close minded.

In response to your 1st paragraph, I am not talking about individual players, I am talking about the law of averages. When you PUG dungeons, you are going to get bad players. That's just the way it is. Now, at the same time, and historically in games such as WoW, time does prove to overcome this as even the worst players eventually either learn what to do, or just outgear the dungeons. But in GW2, that 2nd option is not possible.

No, I'm not saying most players. I'm saying the "One you got stuck with in your group that doesn't" situation that always seems to happen in PUGs.

I would say the GW2 system is a break away, not a break through. You can call me closed minded, but to me I've seen the effect. It's very limited. If I were to say that a non-trinity system will never work, then sure, that's closed minded, but I'm not saying that. What I am saying is GW2's system is limited, it's an observation.  I have said before, Look at the lack luster boss fights. Look at one of the biggest complaints about the dungeon system in the past 6 weeks of threads here, many have said the same thing.  The fact that you disagree doesn't make me any more or less ignorant of any "facts".  The non-trinity system of GW2, did not go over as well with the "masses" as was previously hoped.