Originally posted by nariusseldon

Originally posted by Razimus

Originally posted by Auzy
Gonna have to disagree and say its combat....

I will say PvP is #2, or 'Combat', but without Non-Instanced-Housing I won't waste my time and money on any MMORPG no matter how great the combat is.

And i don't care about non-instanced housing. I won't waste my time on games without good combat, and i don't care about non-instanced housing if the combat is fun.

You do realise non instanced housing can greatly add to combat right?

Originally posted by nariusseldon

Originally posted by Razimus

Originally posted by Auzy
Gonna have to disagree and say its combat....

I will say PvP is #2, or 'Combat', but without Non-Instanced-Housing I won't waste my time and money on any MMORPG no matter how great the combat is.

And i don't care about non-instanced housing. I won't waste my time on games without good combat, and i don't care about non-instanced housing if the combat is fun.

Ok.. then you should play The War of Roses, because in that game combat is fun. Well.. it doesnt have anything else, but the combat is fun.

Originally posted by Razimus

The #1 most important thing in an MMORPG 

What I consider to be the clear and defining line, defining the bad from the great:

Non-Instanced-Housing 

If the MMO that I'm playing doesn't have it, if the developers don't even know what it is, if the community have never experienced it. Only few, and by few I mean I can only name 2 MMORPGs that have ever even boasted Non-Instanced-Housing, knowing it's rare I'll explain to those who have not experienced it. It is when your house in the game is not a decoration, it is terrain, it directly impacts other players as not only can they see it but they are forced to walk around it, it is as real as the rest of the terrain in the entire game, when you open the door you are *NOT* transported to an imaginary place that only you and invited friends can see, for ALL CAN SEE AT ALL TIMES, NON-INSTANCED-HOUSING defines whether an MMORPG is worth dedicating the time to stay in or not, because most don't have it most aren't worth wasting time on. 

The entire game changes with Non-Instanced-Housing, bad neighborhoods, turf wars, good neighborhoods, alliances, wars, battles, it becomes more than a place to store your crap, it becomes the game itself, property value, real estate, economy, there are so many factors I can't list them all, but when an MMORPG has Non-Instanced-Housing instead of Lame Instanced-Housing, or no housing at all, that game you know is going to be serious, you know a game with Non-Instanced-Housing is going to be kick ass. For those who haven't experienced it are missing A LOT.

i disagree. this doesn't make a better game.

I would have to say the most important thing in an mmorpg is the player community. Story isn't as important as that can be experienced in offline rpg's. Combat is a vital part of mmo gameplay...or is it? An mmo could be a non combat one like H&H or a tale in the desert but without people, and a good, friendly, helpful community then I don't think an mmo is really special.

It is the community in LOTRO that has made me go back to it numerous times.

Originally posted by dreamsofwar

I would have to say the most important thing in an mmorpg is the player community. Story isn't as important as that can be experienced in offline rpg's. Combat is a vital part of mmo gameplay...or is it? An mmo could be a non combat one like H&H or a tale in the desert but without people, and a good, friendly, helpful community then I don't think an mmo is really special.

It is the community in LOTRO that has made me go back to it numerous times.

This is an ok point and community needs their heros. There needs to be a disparity between haves and have-nots to keep the "plebs" trying. Maybe it's horrible to say.

Originally posted by Razimus

Originally posted by Auzy
Gonna have to disagree and say its combat....

I will say PvP is #2, or 'Combat', but without Non-Instanced-Housing I won't waste my time and money on any MMORPG no matter how great the combat is.

And your wrong, PvP keeps coming up as important and countless companies have believed it but the simple fact remains that PvE is what actually sells games. There hasn't been any PvP centric game that was a success. Eve Online comes closest but they are still tiny compared to the PvE giants.

The problem that PvP outside the rigid "all sides the same" structure of FPS, is ALWAYS going to be unbalanced and that means people whine and then leave.

And your wrong about housing too. SWG had it and all it means you had a messy maze around every hub filled with houses of long dead accounts.

The probkem is that giving each player a house in the game world simply means you end up with map that is a suburb. And suburbs are not fun gaming environments.

Originally posted by sfc1971

Originally posted by Razimus

Originally posted by Auzy
Gonna have to disagree and say its combat....

I will say PvP is #2, or 'Combat', but without Non-Instanced-Housing I won't waste my time and money on any MMORPG no matter how great the combat is.

And your wrong, PvP keeps coming up as important and countless companies have believed it but the simple fact remains that PvE is what actually sells games. There hasn't been any PvP centric game that was a success. Eve Online comes closest but they are still tiny compared to the PvE giants.

The problem that PvP outside the rigid "all sides the same" structure of FPS, is ALWAYS going to be unbalanced and that means people whine and then leave.

And your wrong about housing too. SWG had it and all it means you had a messy maze around every hub filled with houses of long dead accounts.

The probkem is that giving each player a house in the game world simply means you end up with map that is a suburb. And suburbs are not fun gaming environments.

 

in pvp people don't leave for imbalance. people leave because the best pvp game's goals have been lofty and engine mechanics don't deliver on massive scale battle. war online was beautiful til there was no support for 200v200. swtor was great til ilum was shit. gw2 wvw is a mess.

someone make an engine to accomodate 300v300wars.

Bikini armor!

Second most important ...

Boobs jiggling physics!

Yeah, yeah, I know that's more like three things, but the combined effect is what I value the most in any MMO. Maybe just those won't keep me playing a game for a long time, but I surely won't play a game where I feel the above is severely lacking.

Number one thing is fun that lasts.  If non-instanced housing makes the fun last for you, then yep, it's important.

How many games out there have non-instanced housing?  I'd hazard a guess and say that not many of the AAA games do, making shooting the feature way down on the devs totem pole.

Originally posted by bunnyhopper

Originally posted by nariusseldon

Originally posted by Razimus

Originally posted by Auzy
Gonna have to disagree and say its combat....

I will say PvP is #2, or 'Combat', but without Non-Instanced-Housing I won't waste my time and money on any MMORPG no matter how great the combat is.

And i don't care about non-instanced housing. I won't waste my time on games without good combat, and i don't care about non-instanced housing if the combat is fun.

You do realise non instanced housing can greatly add to combat right?

Not really to combat no. But it gives objectives. Actyally, scratch that, you can have those same objectives without housing.

Player Community

It's an MMO(RPG) right?

#1 most imporatant thing

Interdependent Game Design

Originally posted by Bladestrom
It's a great idea in theory, but it would have to be indestructible to avoid obvious grieving and only be allowed in certain area or you will just get property sprawl that would destroy performance and immersion. If you limit to certain areas without instancing then space is limited, and if you don't limit space and don't instance you hit performance issues. Its a good idea but can only work in games that have small populations, ie if a game is good with housing it's catch 22 it can't cope.

That's pretty much how UO did it when I played, you could only place your house in certain areas.

Aion has residental areas in certain areas of the world (with the vast majority of houses being in a village especially made for players to live in).

Of course the obvious downside to both of those is... expect to pay a LOT if you want a house because there is only so much space to go around, and once it's all gone and in player hands expect them to be greedy and charge a fortune for properties.

Aion gives everyone an instanced appartment as a starting home to get past the above problem, but once you want to upgrade to a real house... yeah...

Originally posted by Gravarg
It depends on what you like really.  For me it's all about story and lore.  If it doesn't have a good story like daoc, wow, lotro, ffxi or rift, I don't want to play it.  Everyone has thier own thing they have to have though.

Pretty much.

Originally posted by Bladestrom
It's a great idea in theory, but it would have to be indestructible to avoid obvious grieving and only be allowed in certain area or you will just get property sprawl that would destroy performance and immersion. If you limit to certain areas without instancing then space is limited, and if you don't limit space and don't instance you hit performance issues. Its a good idea but can only work in games that have small populations, ie if a game is good with housing it's catch 22 it can't cope.

Just to point out... back in the late 90's and early 2000's we were having 100 vs 100 battles surrounded by houses and all the items inside those houses in UO and this was on dial up. 

With that being possible durring that time period and on that kind of connection I have serious trouble ever buying into the "it can't cope" type of arguement. Sure, graphics have come a long way but so has the technology that we rely on for these kinds of games and if graphics really do prove to be the limiting factor then there is a simple solution. Give us the game play even if it reduces the overall graphics because it's the game play that matters most. 

Originally posted by Quirhid

Originally posted by bunnyhopper

Originally posted by nariusseldon

Originally posted by Razimus

Originally posted by Auzy
 

 

 

 

Not really to combat no. But it gives objectives. Actyally, scratch that, you can have those same objectives without housing.

Players can put down "housing" in very creative ways which offer objectives and combat situations you would not otherwise see to anywhere near the same extent. Furthermore fighting over a fixed objective for "points" is nothing at all like fighting for your own guilds player city. Or wiping out an enemy guilds recently placed pvp base.

It is not going to have an impact upon explicit mechanics, but it offers combat situations and an investment which are not really found without them, hence the overall "combat" has been improved.

Originally posted by Apraxis

Originally posted by nariusseldon

Originally posted by Razimus

Originally posted by Auzy
Gonna have to disagree and say its combat....

I will say PvP is #2, or 'Combat', but without Non-Instanced-Housing I won't waste my time and money on any MMORPG no matter how great the combat is.

And i don't care about non-instanced housing. I won't waste my time on games without good combat, and i don't care about non-instanced housing if the combat is fun.

Ok.. then you should play The War of Roses, because in that game combat is fun. Well.. it doesnt have anything else, but the combat is fun.

I probably will check that out. May be after i finished dishonored. Dishonored's stealth "combat" is also fun too although it is definitely not suitable for a MMO.

Originally posted by bunnyhopper

 

Players can put down "housing" in very creative ways which offer objectives and combat situations you would not otherwise see to anywhere near the same extent. Furthermore fighting over a fixed objective for "points" is nothing at all like fighting for your own guilds player city. Or wiping out an enemy guilds recently placed pvp base.

 

It is not going to have an impact upon explicit mechanics, but it offers combat situations and an investment which are not really found without them, hence the overall "combat" has been improved.

Only sounds good on paper. Is there an example of such game play?

---

Originally posted by Razimus
I will say this,

those who don't have Non-Instanced-Housing in their top 10 requirements for an MMO, or top 5 or 3 even, have likely never fully experienced it, there's nothing else like it, there is no comparison, it's like comparing a laser death ray weapon to throwing a rock, there's no comparison.

---

Combat is 75-90% of games today, so for me it is combat mechanics. Which sucks because I try to avoid combat as much as possible. I enjoy simple combat using strategy over twitch-type mechanics. The best combat I have experienced in a game was Wizard101. Turn based strategy does it for me, like the Pen and Paper games of yester-yore. After all, whether you are mashing 1 button or 2, or even 50, you are still mashing buttons. I guess I am just too s-l-o-w for these "young" game players these days (he says, shaking his walking cane :) )

That being said, there truly are many aspects that go into making a game fun and interesting. It really boils down to how these aspects are meshed together.