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Guild Wars 2

Guild Wars 2 

PvP  » where is the progression?

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106 posts found
  kaiser3282

Tipster

Joined: 5/21/08
Posts: 2639

10/15/12 1:57:30 PM#81
Originally posted by bcbully
Originally posted by kaiser3282
Originally posted by bcbully
Originally posted by Aerowyn
Originally posted by Z3R01
 

You don''t see a problem with what you just typed? You're basically asking for some goal to work toward to mask that the game isn't as fun for you anymore.

PS2 is a great game, I personally love it but you can bet your ass if i find myself not wanting to log on I will uninstall it. Just like I would with any other game. Why would anyone want to waste their time working toward a goal without having fun? 

think their point is they need that incentive to have fun in the first place.. i just happen to not share that mindset anymore.

No don't take my words out of context in order to fit your lame "play for fun argument" Ofcourse we play for fun ffs. 

 

Now that is understood (hasn't this always been understood?) let's move on. Z3ro1 said the moment he's not having fun he unistalls. He's speaking in a macro sense.  Boring games get unistalled. I'm speaking of a day to day thing, where you like the game.  Everything gets boring at some point, or falls in the fun scale at some point in time. This doesn't mean you don't like the game. This just means you don't want to play right now for whatever reason. Having something to strive for (which is fun to a lot of people) ties you over until the fun kicks in again. 

 

GW2 all though it my be fun for a period of time, during those down times there is nothing tie a lot of people over. They log out bored for whatever reason, but then have no reason to log back in to get the fun going again. It leaves GW2 in a strange place where the game can be fun here and there, but after you have ran your 15th DE, captured you 10th keep, or played you 15th spvp match your left asking yourself "what for?" having something to strive for answers that question. 

 

There is no answer for this question in GW2. 

This is different than any other game how exactly? Take WoW, or any similar themepark game with lots of vertical gear progression, for example. The progression may take longer, but that progression still ends at some point. What do you do once youre max level and have the best possible gear? Why do people still play the game? Because they find it fun.

Not everyone sticks with the game once they hit that point, because yeah theres nothing left to gain. But many stick with games long after hitting "end game" simply because they enjoy the game and find it fun. If not, lots of still running games would have been completely shut down years ago.

The difference is that there is no verticle progression in GW2 or at best limited by design, number one. Number two, like you said the verticle progression takes much longer in WoW, atleast for the higher levels, that means something to strive for longer. For those that don't want to reach, they don't have too.  For those who do though, it's there. 

 

I don't like roller coasters. I'll never ride those 300ft 150 mph coasters. They are there for people who do though. What's a theme park with all little rides? In other games there are different more intense rides. You even get gear when you get off. 

 

edit - I agree with everything  you said, I just took all this space answering you question :)

I get that it takes longer, said it myself. But that doesnt really answer the main question / point. Regardless of amount of time it takes, tons of people still reach that maximum point of advancement in nearly every game, including WoW. What is there to do then? You have the best possible gear. You wont get any stronger. Yet people still play after hitting that point.

I know the answer. It's because they find the game fun, even if they are no longer progressing.

But that brings me to my next question. Why is GW2 somehow hated for the exact same thing?

People hit that maximum progression point then start bashing the game because "theres nothing else to do". There are things to do, just not progression based things. Just about EVERY MMO in existence has that same exact wall where you are no longer progressing. Its simply part of the game. You cannot continue progressing for eternity. At some point the only thing left to do is "have fun". But for some reason that same thing is hated on by many people when it comes to GW2.

Using WoW as an example again. How many people actually take the full amount of time between expansions to reach max level and get all the best new gear? It takes some people weeks, others a few months. But on average, nowhere near the almost 2 years between expansions. Between those expansions, if you're still playing, the only thing left to do is "have fun". How is that somehow different? You dont see people (maybe afew, but not many) raging against WoW because it doesnt have 2 full years worth of progression in Vanilla or any of its expansions.

I get thatfor some people, progression is important. But progression in games eventually comes to an end. Do you quit the game as soon as you hit that point? Was the game so little fun to you that once you hit that point you suddenly stop having fun?

Of course in some of these games, there are expansions that come out which give you new goals to aim for and new features to try out. But GW2 will also have expansions that add tot he game over time. Some of you guys act like that isnt going to be happening and all that there is now, is all that will ever be.

  ShakyMo

Apprentice Member

Joined: 11/21/11
Posts: 7246

10/15/12 2:03:35 PM#82
One thing with gw2 spvp you dont get, but you do get with wow, rift, swtor, tsw et all.

I've never once had some lowlife go "fps just loose, if we loose quicker we get more tokens"
  kaiser3282

Tipster

Joined: 5/21/08
Posts: 2639

10/15/12 2:06:45 PM#83
Originally posted by ShakyMo
One thing with gw2 spvp you dont get, but you do get with wow, rift, swtor, tsw et all.

I've never once had some lowlife go "fps just loose, if we loose quicker we get more tokens"

Haha, yeah people are horrible witht hat in WAR.

"Hey this other zone is about to be lost. Everyone leave the zone we're winning in and go to the already lost zone for the free loser / pity tick"

or "Stop defending the keep. Just let them take it so we can get our pity tick and then get to the next zone for another pity tick there too"

  ShakyMo

Apprentice Member

Joined: 11/21/11
Posts: 7246

10/15/12 2:08:14 PM#84
Yeah I quit war when bioware changed the rvr rules for the worse and made it semi timed lake wintergrasp bollox.
  User Deleted
10/15/12 4:03:48 PM#85
Originally posted by Aerowyn
Originally posted by Zylaxx

as you can see there is a very big gap in what players enjoy it seems but also in what people consider progression.. I consider how the traits, runes, sigil, and utility skill system a great form of progression for your character as it adds a ton of flexability in how you play your character.. I much prefer this to many other MMOs where you basically are playing the exact same way just hitting harder or having a couple more abilities but still basically playing the exact same way all the way through. GW1 was about skill builds and mixing and matching skills to make builds.. GW2 uses a similar system alhough it limits the skills overall it still provides the flexability to completely change your gameplay with said class depending on how you set up the class.. for me this is much more fun and interesting when leveling than just getting a more powerful version of basically the same exact skill to cap.

See the game is fun for you like that, which is one and only one aspect of that sort of progression.  Myself, my favorite thing about GW2 is roaming around the zones doing Dynamic Events and jsut having a ball.  Like tonight I spent the better portion of the nite in Lorner's Pass.  A zone I had completed before on the way to level 80 but I go back and first off I am put at a level to where I can be semi challenged and secondly I came across new events I missed.  Its like that for every zone.  When I finished it, it might be another month before I go back there and I am certain I will run across new events and content I missed the first 2 times.  To me this is the best part of GW2.  I have over 200K Karma, 176 Trait Points, 24 gold and full exotic gear.  I am not workign toward anything as far as gear is concerened, I already have the best of the best but yet I am having just as much today as I did way back in BWE1.  To me that is the mark of an amazing game and soemthing no MMO's have done since Asherons Call.

i agree and also one of my favorite things about GW2.. i have done several starting zones numerous times and each time see differn't things and events I missed.. Doing the same zone in most MMOs is basically the same exact thing every single time just in how the questing is setup it just doesn't change.. But in this I can see how people who do not enjoy the zones or the DE system they will not see much longevity in this game at least in PVE. But for people who actually enjoy exploring each zone especially with multiple characters you will get a ton of mileage in the game.. i haven't even seen half the zones in this game and have over 250 hours /age

Which is my point.  Some people need progression.  Instead of them bitching that GW2 is a bad game (on an hourly basis it seems) just move on and chalk this up to poor knowlege gathering skills.  I say poor because its not like this was known for months that GW2 wouldnt have the content they desire and yet through their stupidity or malaise they buy it anyway and then when they dont like it they bitch and complain to high heaven because it doesnt have what they want.  It would be just as bad as me making posts after post about Darkfall after purchasing it and quitting because I know I hate open FFA Full Loot PvP and then come here and make a hundred posts about how DF:UW is a horrible game and has no faction PvP or decent PvE for casual players.  People need to stick to what they like and quit bitching about the games that contain stuff they dont.  This would make this site so much more pleasent to visit in the process.

  User Deleted
10/15/12 4:10:14 PM#86
Originally posted by kaiser3282
Originally posted by bcbully
Originally posted by kaiser3282
Originally posted by bcbully
Originally posted by Aerowyn
Originally posted by Z3R01
 

You don''t see a problem with what you just typed? You're basically asking for some goal to work toward to mask that the game isn't as fun for you anymore.

PS2 is a great game, I personally love it but you can bet your ass if i find myself not wanting to log on I will uninstall it. Just like I would with any other game. Why would anyone want to waste their time working toward a goal without having fun? 

think their point is they need that incentive to have fun in the first place.. i just happen to not share that mindset anymore.

No don't take my words out of context in order to fit your lame "play for fun argument" Ofcourse we play for fun ffs. 

 

Now that is understood (hasn't this always been understood?) let's move on. Z3ro1 said the moment he's not having fun he unistalls. He's speaking in a macro sense.  Boring games get unistalled. I'm speaking of a day to day thing, where you like the game.  Everything gets boring at some point, or falls in the fun scale at some point in time. This doesn't mean you don't like the game. This just means you don't want to play right now for whatever reason. Having something to strive for (which is fun to a lot of people) ties you over until the fun kicks in again. 

 

GW2 all though it my be fun for a period of time, during those down times there is nothing tie a lot of people over. They log out bored for whatever reason, but then have no reason to log back in to get the fun going again. It leaves GW2 in a strange place where the game can be fun here and there, but after you have ran your 15th DE, captured you 10th keep, or played you 15th spvp match your left asking yourself "what for?" having something to strive for answers that question. 

 

There is no answer for this question in GW2. 

This is different than any other game how exactly? Take WoW, or any similar themepark game with lots of vertical gear progression, for example. The progression may take longer, but that progression still ends at some point. What do you do once youre max level and have the best possible gear? Why do people still play the game? Because they find it fun.

Not everyone sticks with the game once they hit that point, because yeah theres nothing left to gain. But many stick with games long after hitting "end game" simply because they enjoy the game and find it fun. If not, lots of still running games would have been completely shut down years ago.

The difference is that there is no verticle progression in GW2 or at best limited by design, number one. Number two, like you said the verticle progression takes much longer in WoW, atleast for the higher levels, that means something to strive for longer. For those that don't want to reach, they don't have too.  For those who do though, it's there. 

 

I don't like roller coasters. I'll never ride those 300ft 150 mph coasters. They are there for people who do though. What's a theme park with all little rides? In other games there are different more intense rides. You even get gear when you get off. 

 

edit - I agree with everything  you said, I just took all this space answering you question :)

I get that it takes longer, said it myself. But that doesnt really answer the main question / point. Regardless of amount of time it takes, tons of people still reach that maximum point of advancement in nearly every game, including WoW. What is there to do then? You have the best possible gear. You wont get any stronger. Yet people still play after hitting that point.

I know the answer. It's because they find the game fun, even if they are no longer progressing.

But that brings me to my next question. Why is GW2 somehow hated for the exact same thing?

People hit that maximum progression point then start bashing the game because "theres nothing else to do". There are things to do, just not progression based things. Just about EVERY MMO in existence has that same exact wall where you are no longer progressing. Its simply part of the game. You cannot continue progressing for eternity. At some point the only thing left to do is "have fun". But for some reason that same thing is hated on by many people when it comes to GW2.

Using WoW as an example again. How many people actually take the full amount of time between expansions to reach max level and get all the best new gear? It takes some people weeks, others a few months. But on average, nowhere near the almost 2 years between expansions. Between those expansions, if you're still playing, the only thing left to do is "have fun". How is that somehow different? You dont see people (maybe afew, but not many) raging against WoW because it doesnt have 2 full years worth of progression in Vanilla or any of its expansions.

I get thatfor some people, progression is important. But progression in games eventually comes to an end. Do you quit the game as soon as you hit that point? Was the game so little fun to you that once you hit that point you suddenly stop having fun?

Of course in some of these games, there are expansions that come out which give you new goals to aim for and new features to try out. But GW2 will also have expansions that add tot he game over time. Some of you guys act like that isnt going to be happening and all that there is now, is all that will ever be.

I completely and 100% agree with this post, but the vast majority of modern MMO gamers have grown up on the WoW model where they get to do new progression every 9-10 months when a new raid tier comes out.

 

Just another idiotic design decision that I "used" to love but now see how stupid and dumb it is and how that game has destroyed any sembelance of true MMO vestiges.  All I can say is thank F'n God for GW2 to come along, a AAA MMO that sees through Blizzard's bullshit and gives us who prefer fun to take predominance in the genre.

  Aerowyn

Novice Member

Joined: 2/20/12
Posts: 7969

10/15/12 4:12:20 PM#87
Originally posted by Zylaxx
 

Which is my point.  Some people need progression.  Instead of them bitching that GW2 is a bad game (on an hourly basis it seems) just move on and chalk this up to poor knowlege gathering skills.  I say poor because its not like this was known for months that GW2 wouldnt have the content they desire and yet through their stupidity or malaise they buy it anyway and then when they dont like it they bitch and complain to high heaven because it doesnt have what they want.  It would be just as bad as me making posts after post about Darkfall after purchasing it and quitting because I know I hate open FFA Full Loot PvP and then come here and make a hundred posts about how DF:UW is a horrible game and has no faction PvP or decent PvE for casual players.  People need to stick to what they like and quit bitching about the games that contain stuff they dont.  This would make this site so much more pleasent to visit in the process.

haha very true and I can guarntee these posts will happen after DF release.. but i agree that with GW2 so many complaints I see of the systems are systems that have been known forever.

I angered the clerk in a clothing shop today. She asked me what size I was and I said actual, because I am not to scale. I like vending machines 'cause snacks are better when they fall. If I buy a candy bar at a store, oftentimes, I will drop it... so that it achieves its maximum flavor potential. --Mitch Hedberg

  GolbezTheLion

Novice Member

Joined: 9/27/12
Posts: 250

10/15/12 4:18:03 PM#88

Rank 37.

Don't give a shit about gear, my reward is the thrill of victory.

  bcbully

Elite Member

Joined: 3/03/12
Posts: 7197

10/15/12 4:24:56 PM#89
Originally posted by GolbezTheLion

Rank 37.

Don't give a shit about gear, my reward is the thrill of victory.

Awesome, honestly.

Rank 37 means you play a lot, a whole lot. Would it upset you if you got some super awesome (cosmetic) flaming sword at rank 40, that you could walk around the real game world with? What if you got somthing just as awesome at 5, 10, 15 etc. Would it take away from the thrill of victory?

 

 

When I eat chocolate chip pie it just doesn't feel like chocolate chip cookies. The texture, the consistency, it's just not the same and this is disappointing.

  Kuppa

Novice Member

Joined: 9/24/10
Posts: 3443

The problem with censorship is ********

10/15/12 4:26:10 PM#90
Originally posted by GolbezTheLion

Rank 37.

Don't give a shit about gear, my reward is the thrill of victory.

You are my hero sir.

 

rank 22 here.


  bcbully

Elite Member

Joined: 3/03/12
Posts: 7197

10/15/12 4:26:48 PM#91
Originally posted by Kuppa
Originally posted by GolbezTheLion

Rank 37.

Don't give a shit about gear, my reward is the thrill of victory.

You are my hero sir.

 

rank 22 here.

Same question to you kupp. the one above.

When I eat chocolate chip pie it just doesn't feel like chocolate chip cookies. The texture, the consistency, it's just not the same and this is disappointing.

  Kuppa

Novice Member

Joined: 9/24/10
Posts: 3443

The problem with censorship is ********

10/15/12 4:29:21 PM#92
Originally posted by bcbully
Originally posted by Kuppa
Originally posted by GolbezTheLion

Rank 37.

Don't give a shit about gear, my reward is the thrill of victory.

You are my hero sir.

 

rank 22 here.

Same question to you kupp. the one above.

It wouldn't upset me but I kind of like the separation they have between pvp and pve. TBH I liked how it was back in GW1, don't really care for the gear in pvp. I do like the titles and would hope for more stat tracking then what they have currently.


  stratasaurus

Apprentice Member

Joined: 12/18/11
Posts: 222

10/15/12 4:30:56 PM#93
Originally posted by PaRoXiTiC
Originally posted by Synjyn

agree, give realm ranks like daoc or something

bored already

There are server ranks.

If you don't like GW2 then you need to stop playing video games. Period.

Rofl congrats you are the winner of todays most ignorant comment of the day award with "If you don't like GW2 then you need to stop playing video games. Period."

  bcbully

Elite Member

Joined: 3/03/12
Posts: 7197

10/15/12 4:33:01 PM#94
Originally posted by Kuppa
Originally posted by bcbully
Originally posted by Kuppa
Originally posted by GolbezTheLion

Rank 37.

Don't give a shit about gear, my reward is the thrill of victory.

You are my hero sir.

 

rank 22 here.

Same question to you kupp. the one above.

It wouldn't upset me but I kind of like the separation they have between pvp and pve. TBH I liked how it was back in GW1, don't really care for the gear in pvp. I do like the titles and would hope for more stat tracking then what they have currently.

That's cool and would also be great additions. I just think some form of gain will add meaning. It doesn't have to be a huge hulking system, but a bunch of little things starting with what we are talking about here.

 

 

As far as the complete separation, it made me feel like "hey pvp guy, you go play overhere in this little spot."

When I eat chocolate chip pie it just doesn't feel like chocolate chip cookies. The texture, the consistency, it's just not the same and this is disappointing.

  ShakyMo

Apprentice Member

Joined: 11/21/11
Posts: 7246

10/15/12 4:34:17 PM#95
I don't have a problem with sandbox pvp systems like eve or darkfall

But in themeparks pvp is best gearless like gw or planetside or with a very shallow gear curve like daoc.

Other wise you get afkers, Botters, the let them win brigade and raiders 1 shotting actual pvpers. Basicly it just becomes another gear grind rather than pvp for the joy of pvp.
  kluu

Novice Member

Joined: 6/22/06
Posts: 46

10/15/12 4:36:31 PM#96
Originally posted by AegisSaga

GW2 is the type of game more akin to a FPS than an RPG in the sense that there is no progression. Many RPG players love progression, but many don't seem to realize it until they miss it. I personally do, and I also got bored fast with GW2 since it felt like a FPS where, yes, everyone's balanced yet every match ends up feeling empty. 

 

Fun is in the gamer, not the game. To me fun is progression. To the OP, it's probably the same. There's no need to bash us just because we don't find GW2 fun. 

well said well said

  Kuppa

Novice Member

Joined: 9/24/10
Posts: 3443

The problem with censorship is ********

10/15/12 4:38:43 PM#97
Originally posted by bcbully
Originally posted by Kuppa
Originally posted by bcbully
Originally posted by Kuppa
Originally posted by GolbezTheLion

Rank 37.

Don't give a shit about gear, my reward is the thrill of victory.

You are my hero sir.

 

rank 22 here.

Same question to you kupp. the one above.

It wouldn't upset me but I kind of like the separation they have between pvp and pve. TBH I liked how it was back in GW1, don't really care for the gear in pvp. I do like the titles and would hope for more stat tracking then what they have currently.

That's cool and would also be great additions. I just think some form of gain will add meaning. It doesn't have to be a huge hulking system, but a bunch of little things starting with what we are talking about here.

 

 

As far as the complete separation, it made me feel like "hey pvp guy, you go play overhere in this little spot."

Agreed, they could add more. They probably will as well, at least I hope they do stat wise. But if you look at pvp games that are essentially spvp(which are mainly outside the mmo genre) they don't really reward you much of anything progression wise and you don't get a "world" perse. Look at LoL, its just lobbies but they don't think they are getting stuck in a "little spot".

 

The problem is that many folks that play MMOs need progression, they also need a reason to pvp besides the actual action of pvping. I believe many of them view it as: "Why the heck am I here getting my butt kicked by some epeen crazy person when Im not getting any loot out of it and/or it has no meaning?!"


  kaiser3282

Tipster

Joined: 5/21/08
Posts: 2639

10/15/12 4:40:58 PM#98
Originally posted by bcbully
Originally posted by Kuppa
Originally posted by GolbezTheLion

Rank 37.

Don't give a shit about gear, my reward is the thrill of victory.

You are my hero sir.

 

rank 22 here.

Same question to you kupp. the one above.

I see what youre trying to do, but it isn't correct at all.

Being rewarded for your effort would not diminish the thrill of victory for anyone, and nobody has claimed that either. What some of us are saying is that NOT getting those things does not diminish the thrill of victory for them either.

Just look at FPS games. Theyve been very popular for a long time. A few of themhave added a minor amount of progression, whichis usually quite easy to obtain, but for the most part there is no progression, just the fight. They're very fun to fans of them for the same reasons ome of us prefer  non-gear based PvP where progression & rewards dont factor in.

The thrill of victory is all we need.

I started my online gaming experience in FPS games with no progression whatsoever. The only thing that mattered was skill. The only reward was the thrill of victory, and for those of us good enough to make it, our names on the leaderboards. I've actually spent more time consistently playing certain FPS games than I have in any single MMO without taking extended breaks for months. What was my reward? Getting to test myself against other humans and kicking the crap out of them.

People like me, and some of the others who have posted here are driven by the thrill of battle, and even more by the thrill of victory. Kicking your ass is reward enough. Everything else comes 2nd.

  Kuppa

Novice Member

Joined: 9/24/10
Posts: 3443

The problem with censorship is ********

10/15/12 4:41:19 PM#99
Originally posted by kluu
Originally posted by AegisSaga

GW2 is the type of game more akin to a FPS than an RPG in the sense that there is no progression. Many RPG players love progression, but many don't seem to realize it until they miss it. I personally do, and I also got bored fast with GW2 since it felt like a FPS where, yes, everyone's balanced yet every match ends up feeling empty. 

 

Fun is in the gamer, not the game. To me fun is progression. To the OP, it's probably the same. There's no need to bash us just because we don't find GW2 fun. 

well said well said

OMG this is so right! GW2 pvp is more akin to FPS than RPG definately.


  bcbully

Elite Member

Joined: 3/03/12
Posts: 7197

10/15/12 4:56:59 PM#100
Originally posted by Kuppa
 

Agreed, they could add more. They probably will as well, at least I hope they do stat wise. But if you look at pvp games that are essentially spvp(which are mainly outside the mmo genre) they don't really reward you much of anything progression wise and you don't get a "world" perse. Look at LoL, its just lobbies but they don't think they are getting stuck in a "little spot".

 

The problem is that many folks that play MMOs need progression, they also need a reason to pvp besides the actual action of pvping. I believe many of them view it as: "Why the heck am I here getting my butt kicked by some epeen crazy person when Im not getting any loot out of it and/or it has no meaning?!"

You see I'm the guy who after roflstomping noobs for so long, I ask "why."  I pvp because I believe this is what games are about. Pong says hi along with her buddy Combat.

 

Three things keep me pvp in one game after I reach the "/sigh pwning another noob." point are one, being able to build and rebuild different combonations of play style and how all those abilities interact. Two, something to strive for. Three variety of play i.g. battlegrounds, arenas, Wpvp, and duels. What ever the set up there needs to be atleast 3 viable ways to pvp at minimum. 

 

side note - I think hutball is the second greatest (Altrec Valley #1) battleground ever made, but after 3k matches and another 500 on top with nothing to gain, it even got boring. I raged quit when rated battle grounds didn't come in 1.2.

When I eat chocolate chip pie it just doesn't feel like chocolate chip cookies. The texture, the consistency, it's just not the same and this is disappointing.

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