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  User Deleted
 
OP  10/15/12 3:02:58 PM#1
But does it strike anyone as odd that there are groups of people who want MMOs to be sandboxes again, yet they have the mentality that it needs to be a Triple A and have thousands of players immediately in order to be worth anything?
  StonesDK

Apprentice Member

Joined: 8/06/11
Posts: 1832

10/15/12 3:05:22 PM#2

No

I find it odd, people think a sandbox should be synonymous with FFA Full loot PvP

  Badaboom

Elite Member

Joined: 10/04/10
Posts: 2384

10/15/12 3:06:23 PM#3
Originally posted by Enigmatus
But does it strike anyone as odd that there are groups of people who want MMOs to be sandboxes again, yet they have the mentality that it needs to be a Triple A and have thousands of players immediately in order to be worth anything?

I don't know if people are saying they want thousands of people playing their dream sandbox.  I think people just want a sandbox with great graphics and gameplay, with the focus on the gameplay.  Also for the game not to be a bloody mess, like MO.  They want the polish of GW2 but filled with sandbox features. 

  Kenze

Novice Member

Joined: 4/24/07
Posts: 1235

10/15/12 3:06:38 PM#4
Originally posted by Starpower

No

I find it odd, people think a sandbox should be synonymous with FFA Full loot PvP

 

^^ding ding ding!

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  Dauzqul

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 2/10/12
Posts: 1259

10/15/12 3:15:50 PM#5
Originally posted by Enigmatus
But does it strike anyone as odd that there are groups of people who want MMOs to be sandboxes again, yet they have the mentality that it needs to be a Triple A and have thousands of players immediately in order to be worth anything?

I want a sandbox. The only thing that keeps me from playing one is dealing with all the low budget features, e.g., characters with 3 animations, a vast world with absolutely nothing in it, clunky combat, etc...

 

I want a sandbox that has it all. I want a multiple faction theme with gigantic starter start cities and optional quests. However, instead of just going through some Theme Park quest-line, I'd like to have options of grand control and influence, e.g., factions being able to claim entire continents, deep and complex crafting, the ability to build homes and form player cities, the ability to set up a real shop to sell (no AH), etc.

I want it all. Low-budget games cannot offer what I want. All they can offer is clunky combat, full loot, and an empty world. Boring.

 

When I play sandbox, I think, "I wish I had something to do with all this freedom". When I play Theme Park, I think, "I wish I had the freedom to do something different."
  kaiser3282

Tipster

Joined: 5/21/08
Posts: 2638

10/15/12 3:17:26 PM#6
Originally posted by Enigmatus
But does it strike anyone as odd that there are groups of people who want MMOs to be sandboxes again, yet they have the mentality that it needs to be a Triple A and have thousands of players immediately in order to be worth anything?

It's not really that. Its more that the people who want sandboxes also don't want a buggy, broken, nearly unplayable mess (ie: Mortal and Xsyon). If it looks like a AAA game, then great. But wether it does or not, we just want the damnt hing to work.Those problems naturally prevent those games from having decent population, which also causes even those willing to deal with abroken game to quickly grow bored.

EVE has been the best so far because they actually managed to fix most of the issues that existed, as well as constantly add to the game, which has helped the game grow. It also has a nice balance between PvE / PvP, and options for both low risk and highr isk gameplay.

I'd say Darkfall was the most recent to come close to that, but not quite. It had it's issues, some of which they took care of and they maintened a fairly healthy population for awhile, but eventually the problems that didnt get fixed caused it to die out over time. But DF, although considered a sandbox for the most part, is lacking quite a bit of sandbox features. For example, you cant REALLY build anything. Yes you can buy an existing house, but not build one where you want how you want. Same goes for holdings / keeps. It is also almost completely high risk, with very little options for people not wanting that style of gameplay and who would like relative safety. With the new version coming out, we may get to see a nice turnaround and eventually some actual growth rather than decline similar to EVE. 

Wurm, while a great sandbox in itself, is also lacking much of the fun and a decent combat system that the other 2 have. But because of how well it does sandbox, it has seen mild success.

But aside from those 3, nearly every sandbox to come out in under a decade has been extremely poorly developed with tons of issues that seem to never get fixed after several months, sometimes 1 year or more after release. If they ever manage to fix it, the game is so dead by then that everyone has lost interest and doesnt want to come back to the lack of players.

Unfortunately it seems like the more sandboxy the game gets, the more problems there are. So in order to play a decent working game they're stuck having to play less sandboxy games, or are limited to very few that are worthwhile.

Basically, we want a sandbox with proper development and being coded by people who actually have the skills to make it work well. But instead, we keep being given games by people with, sometimes, amazing creativity and vision but lacking the programming skills to make it actually work well.

  Kyleran

Bitter Vet™

Joined: 9/13/06
Posts: 18935

Fools find no pleasure in understanding, but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV

10/15/12 3:20:40 PM#7

OK, I'll take a AA or even an A sandbox style MMO.

But we keep getting titles that barely would earn a C+ on a good day and that isn't tolerable.

 

"In these forums 'honest' seems to be a symonym for 'hates the game just like I do'" - ohioastro
Kyleran - Bitter Vet ™ since 2006
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  MindTrigger

Advanced Member

Joined: 12/19/07
Posts: 2628

10/15/12 3:23:31 PM#8
Originally posted by kaiser3282
Originally posted by Enigmatus
But does it strike anyone as odd that there are groups of people who want MMOs to be sandboxes again, yet they have the mentality that it needs to be a Triple A and have thousands of players immediately in order to be worth anything?

It's not really that. Its more that the people who want sandboxes also don't want a buggy, broken, nearly unplayable mess (ie: Mortal and Xsyon). If it looks like a AAA game, then great. But wether it does or not, we just want the damnt hing to work.Those problems naturally prevent those games from having decent population, which also causes even those willing to deal with abroken game to quickly grow bored.

EVE has been the best so far because they actually managed to fix most of the issues that existed, as well as constantly add to the game, which has helped the game grow.

I'd say Darkfall was the most recent to come close to that, but not quite. It had it's issues, some of which they took care of and they maintened a fairly healthy population for awhile, but eventually the problems that didnt get fixed caused it to die out over time. With the new version coming out, we may get to see a ice turnaround.

Wurm, while a great sandbox in itself, is also lacking much of the fun and a decent combat system that the other 2 have. But because of how well it does sandbox, it has seen mild success.

But aside from those 3, nearly every sandbox to come out in under a decade has been extremely poorly developed with tons of issues that seem to never get fixed after several months, sometimes 1 year or more after release. If they ever manage to fix it, the game is so dead by then that everyone has lost interest and doesnt want to come back to the lack of players.

Unfortunately it seems like the more sandboxy the game gets, the more problems there are. So in order to play a decent working game they're stuck having to play less sandboxy games, or are limited to very few that are worthwhile.

Has little to do with how sandboxy a game is.  The fact is, most sandbox attempts in the past several years have been by indy devs with little or no budget to speak of.  

A sure sign that you are in an old, dying paradigm/mindset, is when you are scared of new ideas and new technology. Don't feel bad. The world is moving on without you, and you are welcome to yell "Get Off My Lawn!" all you want while it happens. You cannot, however, stop an idea whose time has come.

  ShakyMo

Apprentice Member

Joined: 11/21/11
Posts: 7246

10/15/12 3:27:02 PM#9
Without pvp a sandbox quickly decends into a lorded elite milking the newbs for cash and menial tasks.

You need pvp so you can have revoloution.
  kaiser3282

Tipster

Joined: 5/21/08
Posts: 2638

10/15/12 3:30:13 PM#10
Originally posted by MindTrigger
Originally posted by kaiser3282
Originally posted by Enigmatus
But does it strike anyone as odd that there are groups of people who want MMOs to be sandboxes again, yet they have the mentality that it needs to be a Triple A and have thousands of players immediately in order to be worth anything?

It's not really that. Its more that the people who want sandboxes also don't want a buggy, broken, nearly unplayable mess (ie: Mortal and Xsyon). If it looks like a AAA game, then great. But wether it does or not, we just want the damnt hing to work.Those problems naturally prevent those games from having decent population, which also causes even those willing to deal with abroken game to quickly grow bored.

EVE has been the best so far because they actually managed to fix most of the issues that existed, as well as constantly add to the game, which has helped the game grow.

I'd say Darkfall was the most recent to come close to that, but not quite. It had it's issues, some of which they took care of and they maintened a fairly healthy population for awhile, but eventually the problems that didnt get fixed caused it to die out over time. With the new version coming out, we may get to see a ice turnaround.

Wurm, while a great sandbox in itself, is also lacking much of the fun and a decent combat system that the other 2 have. But because of how well it does sandbox, it has seen mild success.

But aside from those 3, nearly every sandbox to come out in under a decade has been extremely poorly developed with tons of issues that seem to never get fixed after several months, sometimes 1 year or more after release. If they ever manage to fix it, the game is so dead by then that everyone has lost interest and doesnt want to come back to the lack of players.

Unfortunately it seems like the more sandboxy the game gets, the more problems there are. So in order to play a decent working game they're stuck having to play less sandboxy games, or are limited to very few that are worthwhile.

Has little to do with how sandboxy a game is.  The fact is, most sandbox attempts in the past several years have been by indy devs with little or no budget to speak of.  

I didn't mean that as it is broken because it is sandboxy. You're right. It is just that it seems that the trend tends to be that the developers creating the game seem to be full of great ideas, but lacking the skills and funding. As they get more creative and more sandboxy, their skills and / or funding seem to get worse.

Again, not a natural occurence because it is more sandboxy. That just seems the way things have gone. Generally the more sandboxy the game, the more broken it gets. For example compare Darkfall, which was partially broken but less sandboxy to Xsyon which was more sandboxy, but nearly completely broken.

I also edited my original post to add something along those lines between you quoting and me seeing & replying to this.

  User Deleted
10/15/12 3:31:14 PM#11


Originally posted by Enigmatus
But does it strike anyone as odd that there are groups of people who want MMOs to be sandboxes again, yet they have the mentality that it needs to be a Triple A and have thousands of players immediately in order to be worth anything?

I find it odd that you expect me to take you seriously when all you bring to the table is a personal opinion and a vague "group of people". A specific set of examples would be nice. All these gut feelings as fact running rampant on the internets hehe.

  kaiser3282

Tipster

Joined: 5/21/08
Posts: 2638

10/15/12 3:35:24 PM#12
Originally posted by Foomerang

 


Originally posted by Enigmatus
But does it strike anyone as odd that there are groups of people who want MMOs to be sandboxes again, yet they have the mentality that it needs to be a Triple A and have thousands of players immediately in order to be worth anything?

 

I find it odd that you expect me to take you seriously when all you bring to the table is a personal opinion and a vague "group of people". A specific set of examples would be nice. All these gut feelings as fact running rampant on the internets hehe.

I believe he is simply assuming, mistakenly, that it goes something like this:

Supposed sandbox fans dont play the sandbox games because they dont have amazing graphics and tons of players.

When really its more like:

There is a reason why they dont have a ton of players, and why we also don't play them. We try, but they tend to be very disappointing and broken.

  Loke666

Elite Member

Joined: 10/29/07
Posts: 16576

10/15/12 3:38:11 PM#13
Originally posted by Enigmatus
But does it strike anyone as odd that there are groups of people who want MMOs to be sandboxes again, yet they have the mentality that it needs to be a Triple A and have thousands of players immediately in order to be worth anything?

Well, I think it is more that many sandbox players get jealous when they see the work and money some companies can pour in to themeparks and that is not really something strange.

When UO came out it was by far the most expensive MMO ever made (of course its only earlier competitors were M59 and the realm but still) so that someone could make a AAA sandbox again is not actually that far fetched.

Thousands of players? That is nothing, even Darkfall have that many players, I think they expect a lot more.

Personally I dont really care if the game I play is a sandbox or a themepark, I just want a good game but it is a little odd that MMOs today have so little player created content. Allowing guilds to build cities, players to have homes and a player run economy is not really that hard to fix.

People assume that sandbox automatically means FFA PvP and twitched based combat, but what it really means is player created content and that is actually a pretty good alternative to the gear hamsterwheel most themeparks have.

 I am not surprised that companies like EA and Activsion dont make games like that though, they seems to have zero imagination left anymore but just like themeparks doesnt have to be exactly like EQ does not sandboxes have to be just like UO and a well made game will find plenty of players. There are almost limitless possibilities and yet does almost all devs decide to make a new WoW again and again. That is frankly a bit dissapointing, themeparks can also be a lot more.

I would personally like a game that is a bit Asherons call and a bit of the P&P game Shadowrun with some GW2 and SWG put in as well (and some original stuff of course). But that is just me and that would probably be more of a hybrid than a true sandbox.

  Loke666

Elite Member

Joined: 10/29/07
Posts: 16576

10/15/12 3:40:43 PM#14
Originally posted by kaiser3282

I believe he is simply assuming, mistakenly, that it goes something like this:

Supposed sandbox fans dont play the sandbox games because they dont have amazing graphics and tons of players.

When really its more like:

There is a reason why they dont have a ton of players, and why we also don't play them. We try, but they tend to be very disappointing and broken.

Isnt that a catch 22? Sandbox MMOs suck so hardly anyone plays them and therefore they dont get funding which means they suck.

That does not prove or disprove anything at all.

  Voiidiin

Advanced Member

Joined: 1/13/11
Posts: 827

Soylent green is made from PEOPLE

10/15/12 3:50:42 PM#15
Originally posted by Kyleran

OK, I'll take a AA or even an A sandbox style MMO.

But we keep getting titles that barely would earn a C+ on a good day and that isn't tolerable.

 

^^^Pretty much sums up why i am not playing any of the current sandbox MMOs.

If only we could take an older themeparks world tear down all the structures except for some main city hubs, and then let the players create the rest.

Think if DAoC's entire world was turned into a sandbox, three different factions, not FFA PvP but borderless faction PvP. 3 main cities the rest of the world is open for small villages to be formed, and grown into other cities.

Massive sieges ,massive castle building.

No quests except for those posted by players who need something other to do, crafters that need supplies would post a quest for other players to fill. Auctions houses and goods only tradable inside other towns and cities, caravans carrying goods could be raided/guarded.

Now that would be a game for me. 

Clearly a pipe dream.

Lolipops !

  kaiser3282

Tipster

Joined: 5/21/08
Posts: 2638

10/15/12 3:52:08 PM#16
Originally posted by Loke666
Originally posted by kaiser3282

I believe he is simply assuming, mistakenly, that it goes something like this:

Supposed sandbox fans dont play the sandbox games because they dont have amazing graphics and tons of players.

When really its more like:

There is a reason why they dont have a ton of players, and why we also don't play them. We try, but they tend to be very disappointing and broken.

Isnt that a catch 22? Sandbox MMOs suck so hardly anyone plays them and therefore they dont get funding which means they suck.

That does not prove or disprove anything at all.

Unfortunately it's because of where the funding goes. Typically we don't fund the actual development as players, we compensate them after it's already been developed (at least most of the way). They need the money well ahead of that time to really help the game take off, and that money comes from other funders (banks, publishes, etc). Problem is, those funders see profitable themeparks like WoW and think that it is the safe bet for making money, so will only fund someone going the same route as them. Hopefully some of them are starting to wise up and realize, especially after SWTOR, that throwing money into trying to out-WoW WoW won't get you very far and they will be more willing to fund people with more creative ideas. At the very least, some of these games getting a bit of funding throught hings like Kickstarter lately look to be quite promising, but only  time will tell.

  Paradigm68

Apprentice Member

Joined: 1/24/11
Posts: 878

10/15/12 3:56:13 PM#17
I'm not sure what you're referring to when you say 'remembering' but yeah, you got it wrong. Build the triple AAA sandbox that promotes community and understands that pvp is only ONE possible activity players should be able to engage in and the players will come.
  Dewm

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 5/29/09
Posts: 1341

Players come for the game, but they stay for the people- Most Devs have forgotten this.

10/15/12 5:53:58 PM#18

 

Man, people are feisty today..

                                               ...I like it.

  Loktofeit

Elite Member

Joined: 1/13/10
Posts: 12100

Currently playing EVE, SMITE, Wildstar, and Combat Arms

10/15/12 5:58:22 PM#19
Originally posted by ShakyMo
Without pvp a sandbox quickly decends into a lorded elite milking the newbs for cash and menial tasks.
 

Is that what happens in UO?

"And wikipedia is as accurate as Britannica. Wikipedia is very reliable. You would be hard pressed to find a more reliable source for these kinds of things." -fovoroth

  VengeSunsoar

Hard Core Member

Joined: 3/10/04
Posts: 4760

Be Brief, Be Bright... Be Gone.

10/15/12 6:21:47 PM#20
Originally posted by Loktofeit
Originally posted by ShakyMo
Without pvp a sandbox quickly decends into a lorded elite milking the newbs for cash and menial tasks.
 

Is that what happens in UO?

 @Shaky, pretty sure that is what happens with pvp.  In a pve sandbox there really is no elite, well that anyone cares about anyway. 

Quit worrying about other players in a game and just play.

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