Originally posted by ericbelser

TLDR version of that whole argument: How I play is okay, what you do is weird and unhealthy ;)

Seriously, why MMO companies have continued to do everything possible via game mechanics to discourage community while whining about lack of player retention just amazes me. Anything that keeps players paying money to interact with each other without 'consuming' dev-created content should be the holy grail to game managers.

 

There are essentially two schools of MMO design at work at the moment.

It has to do with control, or lack of it.

MMOs relying on authored content ready for consumption have the philosophy of maximum designer/developer control. They are easily made because the given responses to content are limited and therefore predictable. Design becomes less complex in favor of quantity.

But most importantly, the quality is reproducable and there are consistent results.

MMOs relying on emergent gameplay content sacrifice control while providing deeper and more complex design.

The problem with this approach is that the quality is not consistent as its dependent on the players themselves.

Its no wonder that companies, that are primarily concerned with making money, are more interested in consistent quality and results.

This is also why most multiplayer sandbox games are make it or break it afairs, because the experience itself is wildly varying through emergent gameplay, while "themepark" design garners more consistent results.

Of course if you dig deeper, it gets more complex, but this is it in a nutshell.

Originally posted by Elikal

Originally posted by Jakdstripper

Originally posted by Elikal

Now I have "played" the new DLC for Skyrim, Hearthfire. Now by itself there wasn't much to do, tho I felt it was worth the 4,99 Euro. I built a wonderful, large house overviewing a lake, I invited my husband into it, hired a steward, a bard and worked very hard to create all the furniture and shrines and gather all my many trophies and place them there. Finally I did what I had wished to do for a LONG time, I got two kids out of this horrible Orphanage and had two kids, which I pampered with toys and gifts and sweets. Oh and I managed to get two dogs as well. It didn't "do" anything, but it sorta filled me with glee, and made the game round.

 

 

 wtf?....you play mmos to be a house wife?....:S....

To be totally blunt, yes. Partially. I am a single most of my life without family and kids and never will, so pretenting that in a game has the appeal of pseudo-life. It roots me in a virtual game world. Call me a fool, but it always "aww's" me. ^^()

 

I mean, isn't it why all the nerds play hero? To pretend what we do not have in the dull everyday life? ;)

 

Originally posted by AdamTM

Get a dollhouse.

Then again getting a dollhouse for under 5$ is kind of impossible nowadays, even under 55$ if you include your Skyrim purchase.

I don't want a dollhouse by itself! Ok, having played Sims 2 for years, maybe I do. But that's not the point. The point is, I want my MMO heroes to have a home. Not just a house, a home, ideally in a player city, maybe with NPC family option. Something to make me feel connected to the game world.

Elikal, I completely understand where you are coming from.  I do the same thing in Mount and Blade Warband, single player game.  I totally redecorate the castles my character controls.  :)   I did the same thing in other games as well, like Sims 3, Skyrim and SWG.    I like games that give us more options to do stuff in games - like hunting for butterflies.   :)    

So yes, more MMO's need sustainable game play options - and not just raiding and running PvP BG's.

Originally posted by Starpower
I never cared about housing. They serve no function other than as a trophy. If you actually were dependant on it for shelter and it was interactive beyond fluff then that would be another matter

Each to his/hers. ;) I never cared for dungeon grinding and getting uber armor just for the sake of, or grinding faction points. A good MMO should IMVPO contain things for many sorts of players. There is enough room for me and you. ;)

Originally posted by grimgryphon

Originally posted by Starpower
I never cared about housing. They serve no function other than as a trophy. If you actually were dependant on it for shelter and it was interactive beyond fluff then that would be another matter

Is it in Skyrim. You're home can be attacked. The land plots are placed just close anough to hostile mobs that there is a chance of conflict.

I was attacked while building my home....twice.

Oh YES, wasn't that cool! There was an evil cultist I had to remove, I hired the Bard and two dogs two have protection for my kids, and at one time hired thugs came to abduct my family! In the early building phase my steward and me fended off a pack of wolves from the house. I loved that. ^^

Made a small video of my Skyrim adventure, hearthfire shots at the end.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oSj8AzJyY0M

Originally posted by Loktofeit

Originally posted by Elikal

Originally posted by Jakdstripper

Originally posted by Elikal

Now I have "played" the new DLC for Skyrim, Hearthfire. Now by itself there wasn't much to do, tho I felt it was worth the 4,99 Euro. I built a wonderful, large house overviewing a lake, I invited my husband into it, hired a steward, a bard and worked very hard to create all the furniture and shrines and gather all my many trophies and place them there. Finally I did what I had wished to do for a LONG time, I got two kids out of this horrible Orphanage and had two kids, which I pampered with toys and gifts and sweets. Oh and I managed to get two dogs as well. It didn't "do" anything, but it sorta filled me with glee, and made the game round.

 wtf?....you play mmos to be a house wife?....:S....

To be totally blunt, yes. Partially. I am a single most of my life without family and kids and never will, so pretenting that in a game has the appeal of pseudo-life. It roots me in a virtual game world. Call me a fool, but it always "aww's" me. ^^()

I mean, isn't it why all the nerds play hero? To pretend what we do not have in the dull everyday life? ;)

That was such a cool and sincere response that I had to double check I was still on the MMORPG.com forums.

Thanks. I prefer to think I am an idiot, because I always blurt out what I think.

Originally posted by Starpower

Originally posted by Ozmodan

Originally posted by Jakdstripper

Originally posted by Elikal

Now I have "played" the new DLC for Skyrim, Hearthfire. Now by itself there wasn't much to do, tho I felt it was worth the 4,99 Euro. I built a wonderful, large house overviewing a lake, I invited my husband into it, hired a steward, a bard and worked very hard to create all the furniture and shrines and gather all my many trophies and place them there. Finally I did what I had wished to do for a LONG time, I got two kids out of this horrible Orphanage and had two kids, which I pampered with toys and gifts and sweets. Oh and I managed to get two dogs as well. It didn't "do" anything, but it sorta filled me with glee, and made the game round.

 

 

 wtf?....you play mmos to be a house wife?....:S....

Thanks for the laugh, the most clueless response I have seen in a while.  Nothing wrong with doing something other than constant combat.  Players that do, soon move on to the next killing field game.  Players like her, stick around a while.  She is the player the developers should be concentrating on, not the guy who kills everything in sight, gets bored with it and moves on to the next game.

Non instanced housing, which can't be found in any modern day MMO, is a real plus to people who play the whole game.

Not that it matters but "she" is a he

Lol, last time I checked I was a dude. Still, it has been my wish as long as I can think to have a farm, tend for a house and two nice kids. I never could understand why women these days all want to work in an office or company rather than be "housewife"? What was so bad about it? Oh well... off topic, sorta. A friend of mine is houseman. His wife is a lawyer and he tends the their two sons, the house and garden. I envy him.

But alas, there are way too many real obstacles to overcome in my RL. Trust me in this, that is not some cheap excuse. I really would want this sort of life, but it is just outside my reach for too many reasons. I am not on top health, so I can't just go into the woods and built a house there. Laws and taxes in Germany are severe, houses are for people with MUCH money here. I live poorly from my art as cartoonist, never did a "serious" job all my life since I finished university, always living for my art. I am a gay dude and adpotion is not allowed for me even in Germany. And who would want to move with a poor, stupid have-nothing like me? And with all my issues, I would not want to burden kids, god forbid. So, I decided to do the world a favor and stick to myself. There, so it is. I decided someday to face reality as it is, and accept it. Gives peace.

Originally posted by Starpower
I never cared about housing. They serve no function other than as a trophy. If you actually were dependant on it for shelter and it was interactive beyond fluff then that would be another matter

They serve no purpose for the current batch of mmo because of the ineptitude of current batch of mmo designers in giving them a purpose.

Back in the days of SWG or UO or DaOC or other games player cities and housing have massive purpose - they served as the commercial and production center of communities and things to contest over.

However thanks to the no-perma decay on items, no dynamic stats on items, and no ability to mass produce and mass resource gather policy to a lot of the current batch of mmos, production activity have basically been made useless, and everything is about loot.

And then there is the vicious cycle of loot - as they introduce more and more powerful items, the older batch of items becomes obsolete, and with the new batch of items being permanent, there is no way for the stats to phase itself out so the only way to degrade it's power is to introduce MORE powerful items and MORE player levels.

This is the harm of the the current MMO concept. It basically is as unsustainable as what we do in real life (oh wow iPhone5 comes out! Lets throw our iPhone4 into the bin and buy the new one).

It really needs to change. The older mmos had it right and somehow something went crooked along the way.

Having housing, decorative items that drop or can be crafted + anything related to that is incredibly necessary in any mmorpg and is what lacks in most of them created today. Here is why -

1. It brings in the girls, which brings in the guys.

2. At least half of the MMORPGer's want this.

3. It adds longevity.

4. It adds to 'community'.

5. It creates a grind outside your standard MMORPG grind.

In regards to 'housing' I'm very intruiged atm by RIFTs dimensions. Basically you get stuff and you can place that stuff in your dimension. If you want to build a house from that stuff, then you're free to do so. Also I've seen ships, treehouses, decorative items and they're saying they're just beginning with the adding of stuff to place in your dimensions (trophies of (raid) bosses are on the list).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UKeXqsLoKp8

And awesome massively trailer: http://massively.joystiq.com/2012/10/10/rift-dimensions-video-asks-what-will-you-create/

Hope it helps ^^

Edit: Also I know there'll be guild dimensions. Basically the same, but way bigger.

I can live without housing,but I definitely can see the appeal..

I enjoyed my house in DAOC,had tons of money to deck it out,had the dragon head trophy n such.Would leave it unlocked for guildies to check out and use the merchants within.

Skyrim's take seems way more advanced though from what im reading in this thread.Havent played the game yet ,still stuck in fallout 3...

at this rate i prolly wont be playing skyrim till im 80 years old.

Originally posted by Elikal

Originally posted by Jakdstripper

Originally posted by Elikal

Now I have "played" the new DLC for Skyrim, Hearthfire. Now by itself there wasn't much to do, tho I felt it was worth the 4,99 Euro. I built a wonderful, large house overviewing a lake, I invited my husband into it, hired a steward, a bard and worked very hard to create all the furniture and shrines and gather all my many trophies and place them there. Finally I did what I had wished to do for a LONG time, I got two kids out of this horrible Orphanage and had two kids, which I pampered with toys and gifts and sweets. Oh and I managed to get two dogs as well. It didn't "do" anything, but it sorta filled me with glee, and made the game round.

 

 

 wtf?....you play mmos to be a house wife?....:S....

To be totally blunt, yes. Partially. I am a single most of my life without family and kids and never will, so pretenting that in a game has the appeal of pseudo-life. It roots me in a virtual game world. Call me a fool, but it always "aww's" me. ^^()

 

I mean, isn't it why all the nerds play hero? To pretend what we do not have in the dull everyday life? ;)

 

Originally posted by AdamTM

Get a dollhouse.

Then again getting a dollhouse for under 5$ is kind of impossible nowadays, even under 55$ if you include your Skyrim purchase.

I don't want a dollhouse by itself! Ok, having played Sims 2 for years, maybe I do. But that's not the point. The point is, I want my MMO heroes to have a home. Not just a house, a home, ideally in a player city, maybe with NPC family option. Something to make me feel connected to the game world.

Don't get me wrong I know what you are saying, I was just joking.

I enjoy these elements too, but for different reasons. I like to build and customize things in my games, its about my creative output. 

I'm less interested in the interaction part in Sims than i'm in building a house and decorating it. Its about the only reason why I play games like terraria, I'm not interested in killing mobs, more in building and exploring.

But not only that, if a game has massive customization of gear for example, i will be all over it as well. Like building your own guns (BR, Loadout) from scratch or making items with an assembly process (Ryzom, best crafting in an mmorpg ever)

Any MMO that features those elements will immediately be a win for me.

Originally posted by Elikal

I know, there are the power zerger who just want to KILL STUFF in MMOs, and that's fine with me. But ever since I spent years in building my house in EQ2, I missed that, and missed being connected to the world in MMOs. I know how after EQ2 and SWG (my big SWG manor in our very alife player city... *sob*) I just could not play WOW at all; and my personal reason was, that I felt like a homeless. In EQ2 and SWG I *always* went back into my home after a longer play session or finishing an area. It was a sort of ritual. I logged out "at home". I gradually got larger homes, and I placed all my trophies in it. In SWG had even had a big ingame marriage with another player, we built our manor together in our guild's player city. Sigh.

Now I have "played" the new DLC for Skyrim, Hearthfire. Now by itself there wasn't much to do, tho I felt it was worth the 4,99 Euro. I built a wonderful, large house overviewing a lake, I invited my husband into it, hired a steward, a bard and worked very hard to create all the furniture and shrines and gather all my many trophies and place them there. Finally I did what I had wished to do for a LONG time, I got two kids out of this horrible Orphanage and had two kids, which I pampered with toys and gifts and sweets. Oh and I managed to get two dogs as well. It didn't "do" anything, but it sorta filled me with glee, and made the game round.

 

I really miss that in MMOs. When I ran through Guild Wars II, often I wished I had a house for trophies, a NPC hubby and could adopt some of these super cute kids, and I would always bring them some exciting stuff and tales from my adventures.

But I guess that's just silly me... :I

I am sorry, I do want MMORPGs to have more depth, but I really hope they dont turn out like SIMs Online or Second Life where you have wife, kids and that kind of stuff. MMORPGs have almost always been combat/adventure focused and I really hope they stay that way (but with more depth).

Pamper my kids with toys? OMFG... please no.

I agree with the OP, in that the vast majority of MMOs that have come out in the last 7 years are way more game than world. I have a feeling that more MMOs that are just as much simulation as game, like MMORPGs should be, are currently in the works. ArcheAge, Black Desert, The War Z / Day Z, and the just announced Star Civilian are coming to fill the void that true MMORPG players have been missing.

I never quite understood why the MMO standard has become this action combat zergfest they are today. They were originally meant to be world simulations, like Wurm Online for example. Our day is coming Elikal...hang in there! :)

Originally posted by Yamota

Originally posted by Elikal

I know, there are the power zerger who just want to KILL STUFF in MMOs, and that's fine with me. But ever since I spent years in building my house in EQ2, I missed that, and missed being connected to the world in MMOs. I know how after EQ2 and SWG (my big SWG manor in our very alife player city... *sob*) I just could not play WOW at all; and my personal reason was, that I felt like a homeless. In EQ2 and SWG I *always* went back into my home after a longer play session or finishing an area. It was a sort of ritual. I logged out "at home". I gradually got larger homes, and I placed all my trophies in it. In SWG had even had a big ingame marriage with another player, we built our manor together in our guild's player city. Sigh.

Now I have "played" the new DLC for Skyrim, Hearthfire. Now by itself there wasn't much to do, tho I felt it was worth the 4,99 Euro. I built a wonderful, large house overviewing a lake, I invited my husband into it, hired a steward, a bard and worked very hard to create all the furniture and shrines and gather all my many trophies and place them there. Finally I did what I had wished to do for a LONG time, I got two kids out of this horrible Orphanage and had two kids, which I pampered with toys and gifts and sweets. Oh and I managed to get two dogs as well. It didn't "do" anything, but it sorta filled me with glee, and made the game round.

 

I really miss that in MMOs. When I ran through Guild Wars II, often I wished I had a house for trophies, a NPC hubby and could adopt some of these super cute kids, and I would always bring them some exciting stuff and tales from my adventures.

But I guess that's just silly me... :I

I am sorry, I do want MMORPGs to have more depth, but I really hope they dont turn out like SIMs Online or Second Life where you have wife, kids and that kind of stuff. MMORPGs have almost always been combat/adventure focused and I really hope they stay that way (but with more depth).

Pamper my kids with toys? OMFG... please no.

Noone says that mmorpg's should abandom combat and start sims online.

Just that there is demand for SOME mmoprg's that have some things ADDITIONALY to combat.  

Even if you would choose to play game like that (there would still be doznes on combat only mmorpg's) you would not HAVE TO do it.  

In Ultima Online alot players did not bother to have house, most did not bother to be crafters, etc   I don't understand why you would be against those features though in some of mmoprg's? 

Wow. It seems quite a few people have forgotten what roleplay is all about? There's a lot more to it than just being that brass-balled, fireball-farting warrior :).

Originally posted by remyburke

I agree with the OP, in that the vast majority of MMOs that have come out in the last 7 years are way more game than world. I have a feeling that more MMOs that are just as much simulation as game, like MMORPGs should be, are currently in the works. ArcheAge, Black Desert, The War Z / Day Z, and the just announced Star Civilian are coming to fill the void that true MMORPG players have been missing.

I never quite understood why the MMO standard has become this action combat zergfest they are today. They were originally meant to be world simulations, like Wurm Online for example. Our day is coming Elikal...hang in there! :)

A lot of it has to do witht he turn our society in general has taken. Not that everyone is "stupid", but that for the majority, it is no longer a "thinking man's world". Everyone is content to just go along with the herd and follow the latest fads. Its also become a society of people who are content with flashy special effects, cool explosions, and the most juvenile comedy in movies for them to be the greatest thing ever. It doesnt matter how utterly ridiculous the stories / plots are, how predictable they are, or how repetetive they are. Thought provoking and original movies are considered "boring" because there isnt enough ass kicking, explosions, tits, and farts.

Just think of some of the things that are considered by the masses to be "amazing" and "innovative" when it comes to new inventions and technology compared to in the past.

Older "amazing" inventions:Harnassing the power of electricity, the steam engine, televisions, automobiles, airplanes, computers & cell phones themselves, irrigation and sewage systems, freaking WINDOWS (not the OS, but actual glass windows that protect you from weather and did not exist in homes for many centuries)

The new standard for "amazing" and "innovative": The latest Facebook app

Is it really a surprise that games have gone the way of flashy combat and action that requires little to no thinking rather than a focus on immersive world building, exploration, change, and original & mind blowing concepts like we envisioned a decade or more ago?

Originally posted by fenistil

Originally posted by Yamota

 

I am sorry, I do want MMORPGs to have more depth, but I really hope they dont turn out like SIMs Online or Second Life where you have wife, kids and that kind of stuff. MMORPGs have almost always been combat/adventure focused and I really hope they stay that way (but with more depth).

Pamper my kids with toys? OMFG... please no.

Noone says that mmorpg's should abandom combat and start sims online.

Just that there is demand for SOME mmoprg's that have some things ADDITIONALY to combat.  

Even if you would choose to play game like that (there would still be doznes on combat only mmorpg's) you would not HAVE TO do it.  

In Ultima Online alot players did not bother to have house, most did not bother to be crafters, etc   I don't understand why you would be against those features though in some of mmoprg's? 

I am talking about this social simulation life thingy with having children, wife, husband etc. Ofcourse MMORPGs should have non combat activities, such as crafting, but there are social life simulators out there and I would very much not like devs. spend resources to put those stuff in a typical high fantasy or sci-fi MMORPG as they have always been about combat and ADVENTURE.

I mean how much of the Lord of the Rings was spent regarding those things compared to adventuring? I know it was there but the focus of it was still the adventure and the quest of the one ring. Same with Star Wars and the only one I can think of which focused on social/drama stuff was the later Star Trek series which kind of sucked imo.

So again, there are social life MMOs but mixing those with typical high fantasy or sci-fi is not a good idea as it would take away precious resources. However I am all for more depth in regards to things that are typical in those settings. Such as magic, crafting, engineering etc but lets keep soap opera stuff out of MMORPGs pls.

Originally posted by Elikal

Originally posted by Loktofeit

Originally posted by Elikal

Originally posted by Jakdstripper

Originally posted by Elikal

Now I have "played" the new DLC for Skyrim, Hearthfire. Now by itself there wasn't much to do, tho I felt it was worth the 4,99 Euro. I built a wonderful, large house overviewing a lake, I invited my husband into it, hired a steward, a bard and worked very hard to create all the furniture and shrines and gather all my many trophies and place them there. Finally I did what I had wished to do for a LONG time, I got two kids out of this horrible Orphanage and had two kids, which I pampered with toys and gifts and sweets. Oh and I managed to get two dogs as well. It didn't "do" anything, but it sorta filled me with glee, and made the game round.

 wtf?....you play mmos to be a house wife?....:S....

To be totally blunt, yes. Partially. I am a single most of my life without family and kids and never will, so pretenting that in a game has the appeal of pseudo-life. It roots me in a virtual game world. Call me a fool, but it always "aww's" me. ^^()

I mean, isn't it why all the nerds play hero? To pretend what we do not have in the dull everyday life? ;)

That was such a cool and sincere response that I had to double check I was still on the MMORPG.com forums.

Thanks. I prefer to think I am an idiot, because I always blurt out what I think.

 

Originally posted by Starpower

Originally posted by Ozmodan

Originally posted by Jakdstripper

Originally posted by Elikal

Now I have "played" the new DLC for Skyrim, Hearthfire. Now by itself there wasn't much to do, tho I felt it was worth the 4,99 Euro. I built a wonderful, large house overviewing a lake, I invited my husband into it, hired a steward, a bard and worked very hard to create all the furniture and shrines and gather all my many trophies and place them there. Finally I did what I had wished to do for a LONG time, I got two kids out of this horrible Orphanage and had two kids, which I pampered with toys and gifts and sweets. Oh and I managed to get two dogs as well. It didn't "do" anything, but it sorta filled me with glee, and made the game round.

 

 

 wtf?....you play mmos to be a house wife?....:S....

Thanks for the laugh, the most clueless response I have seen in a while.  Nothing wrong with doing something other than constant combat.  Players that do, soon move on to the next killing field game.  Players like her, stick around a while.  She is the player the developers should be concentrating on, not the guy who kills everything in sight, gets bored with it and moves on to the next game.

Non instanced housing, which can't be found in any modern day MMO, is a real plus to people who play the whole game.

Not that it matters but "she" is a he

Lol, last time I checked I was a dude. Still, it has been my wish as long as I can think to have a farm, tend for a house and two nice kids. I never could understand why women these days all want to work in an office or company rather than be "housewife"? What was so bad about it? Oh well... off topic, sorta. A friend of mine is houseman. His wife is a lawyer and he tends the their two sons, the house and garden. I envy him.

But alas, there are way too many real obstacles to overcome in my RL. Trust me in this, that is not some cheap excuse. I really would want this sort of life, but it is just outside my reach for too many reasons. I am not on top health, so I can't just go into the woods and built a house there. Laws and taxes in Germany are severe, houses are for people with MUCH money here. I live poorly from my art as cartoonist, never did a "serious" job all my life since I finished university, always living for my art. I am a gay dude and adpotion is not allowed for me even in Germany. And who would want to move with a poor, stupid have-nothing like me? And with all my issues, I would not want to burden kids, god forbid. So, I decided to do the world a favor and stick to myself. There, so it is. I decided someday to face reality as it is, and accept it. Gives peace.

The only issue I see is the gay thing, but if you really want to adopt a child you can move to another European country that allows homosexuals to adopt children. As for your "And with all my issues, I would not want to burden kids": if you are able to love them and show them that you love them, then you are already on the right track to be a superb parent. Having a good economy is indeed helpful but not a necessity for a child to have a happy childhood. 

Originally posted by BizkitNL

Wow. It seems quite a few people have forgotten what roleplay is all about? There's a lot more to it than just being that brass-balled, fireball-farting warrior :).

 

Actually, if done right, this idea doesn't even require RPing. It could be done as a mini-game to some respect. WoW generation of MMOG gamers really have no clue what an MMORPG is and so most of them probably don't even care. Games like Shadowbane, Star Wars Galaxies and soon to be ArcheAge are a niche style game. I blame the instant gratification syndrome of today's society.

Originally posted by Rhoklaw

Originally posted by BizkitNL

Wow. It seems quite a few people have forgotten what roleplay is all about? There's a lot more to it than just being that brass-balled, fireball-farting warrior :).

 

Actually, if done right, this idea doesn't even require RPing. It could be done as a mini-game to some respect. WoW generation of MMOG gamers really have no clue what an MMORPG is and so most of them probably don't even care. Games like Shadowbane, Star Wars Galaxies and soon to be ArcheAge are a niche style game. I blame the instant gratification syndrome of today's society.

Agreed.