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News & Features Discussion  » [General Article] World of Warcraft: Mists of Pandaria: Review in Progress – Part Two

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69 posts found
  Hrimnir

Advanced Member

Joined: 5/24/10
Posts: 1015

10/14/12 1:51:25 PM#41
Originally posted by expresso

Cannot help but feel MMORPG.COM have made little effort to really look at MOP and have just thrown something together at the last minute to keep up appearences.  The game has been out 3 weeks and you cannot manage a full review? you've completed the starter area and the first zone of the new 85-90 content in that time?

 

Not to comment on the content of these "in progress" reviews cus well there is little content and it's mostly inacurrate and full of supposition (see the first in-progress article about the jade forrest).

 

Not to say I can do better but then again my job is not to review games, but if it was I would hope to do a much better job than what I have seen thus far.

 

Just my little rant.

 

Here are some video reviews worth watching for a rounded review of MOP.

http://uk.ign.com/videos/2012/10/04/world-of-warcraft-mists-of-pandaria-review

http://www.escapistmagazine.com/videos/view/reviews/6389-World-of-Warcraft-Mists-of-Pandaria-Video-Review?utm_source=rss&utm_medium=rss&utm_campaign=videos

 

 
 

Should give you an idea of how little most of us on this forum care about WOW anymore... /shrug

"The surest way to corrupt a youth is to instruct him to hold in higher esteem those who think alike than those who think differently."

- Friedrich Nietzsche

  Xiaoki

Hard Core Member

Joined: 3/07/04
Posts: 2369

10/14/12 3:06:23 PM#42


Originally posted by BillMurphy
Hey guys,

I dislike the new talent system, but I enjoyed the class as a whole.  Mind you, for this week's column while Garrett was in GDC, I was asked to write my opinion on these facets of the expansion.  It's not an official review, it's not the final review of the expansion... it's just my thoughts on these features.  You can disagree, but that doesn't make my complaints any less valid.  

Leveling a new character in the post MoP world is a LOT less interesting because "new" changes to your character come far less often than they used to.  It's something I don't like about the expansion, but nowhere in my review does it say I think the whole thing is bad because of this.  In fact, thematically, it's probably the best in years.  But that doesn't mean I have to like all of the changes to the core systems.  

In theory, I love the new talent system's IDEA.  I just think that one every 15 levels is too few.  One every five would make leveling more interesting, and give more variety in the process.  I understand that the old system was bloated with far too many "percents" and so forth.  But I feel this new system swung the pendulum too far back in the other direction.



So, your entire basis for not liking the new talent system is not having something new every level while leveling?


You dont like the new talent system because it makes WoW LESS of a Skinner Box? Really?!


So, because you dont get that food pellet disguised as a +1% crit chance or Shadowbolt VIII the new system is "not as fun".


Is it really hard to wonder that people think MMORPGs are dying when a reviewer for MMORPG.com is mad that MMORPGs doesnt treat him like an animal?

  BillMurphy

Managing Editor

Joined: 7/28/06
Posts: 1567

10/14/12 4:35:17 PM#43

No, I dislike the talent system because it limits customization more than the previous system.  I didn't say the old system was perfect, and I certainly don't think this new one is.  It should meet somewhere in the middle.

But go ahead and keep putting words in my mouth and insulting me if it makes your own opinion more valid.

  Aerowyn

Apprentice Member

Joined: 2/20/12
Posts: 7969

10/14/12 4:39:04 PM#44
Originally posted by BillMurphy

No, I dislike the talent system because it limits customization more than the previous system.  I didn't say the old system was perfect, and I certainly don't think this new one is.  It should meet somewhere in the middle.

But go ahead and keep putting words in my mouth and insulting me if it makes your own opinion more valid.

pretty much summed up more than half the arguments that go on, on these boards:)

I angered the clerk in a clothing shop today. She asked me what size I was and I said actual, because I am not to scale. I like vending machines 'cause snacks are better when they fall. If I buy a candy bar at a store, oftentimes, I will drop it... so that it achieves its maximum flavor potential. --Mitch Hedberg

  Thupli

Advanced Member

Joined: 7/25/11
Posts: 352

10/14/12 5:06:18 PM#45

Just fanboys unable to handle any criticism of their game.

 

That said, I think it may be worth doing a f2p account and twinking out at level 20.  Nothing but the same old grind at higher levels, so may as well stick with twinked pvp.

  Xiaoki

Hard Core Member

Joined: 3/07/04
Posts: 2369

10/14/12 6:54:52 PM#46


Originally posted by BillMurphy
No, I dislike the talent system because it limits customization more than the previous system.  I didn't say the old system was perfect, and I certainly don't think this new one is.  It should meet somewhere in the middle.

But go ahead and keep putting words in my mouth and insulting me if it makes your own opinion more valid.



In your review and your previous post your main criticism with the new talent system is that it made leveling less interesting and more of a chore.


Now you are saying that you dont like it only because it limits character customization.


You dont need me changing what you say, you're doing a fine job on your own.


Also, if you want YOUR opinion to be more valid then choose one. Dont say one thing then say something different when someone criticizes your first argument.


  moguy2

Apprentice Member

Joined: 9/20/12
Posts: 350

Wish I had something positive to say =(

10/14/12 7:02:11 PM#47

The game has been dumbed down. Bill hit it right on the head. And all the people butt hurt because he nailed the facts need to  log back into the game and troll /trade a little more. Seriously, it has become more accesible to the 9-12 year old range so every kid can moan to their parent to play the omg flashy and omg easy WoW game. Sure you can raid at the end-but from start to 90 is cake.

Btw I havent got a warning in a while- if anyone has the time out to report me please. 

  BillMurphy

Managing Editor

Joined: 7/28/06
Posts: 1567

10/14/12 7:20:10 PM#48

@Xiaoki:

Perhaps you should read my comments and column again? I really think you've not quite seen my point.

  • In the column: "The problem is that in theory it’s entirely sound.  In practice… it takes away customization and the fun of leveling in many ways."
  • Also in column: "By reducing the number of talents in this new system, the game has pretty much taken most of the choice out of raising your character and building him or her to your liking."
  • In the comments: "In theory, I love the new talent system's IDEA.  I just think that one every 15 levels is too few.  One every five would make leveling more interesting, and give more variety in the process.  I understand that the old system was bloated with far too many "percents" and so forth.  But I feel this new system swung the pendulum too far back in the other direction."
  • In comments again: "No, I dislike the talent system because it limits customization more than the previous system.  I didn't say the old system was perfect, and I certainly don't think this new one is.  It should meet somewhere in the middle."

These are all in line with each other. Also, please don't take the negative sides of a critique to mean I dislike World of Warcraft if that's what is upsetting you.  Quite the contrary, I'm one of the game's many fans.  But I'd hardly be doing my job if I didn't bring up the positives and negatives when writing a "Review in Progress" column.  

Edited for mistaken double-quote of the column.

  Xiaoki

Hard Core Member

Joined: 3/07/04
Posts: 2369

10/14/12 8:16:29 PM#49


Originally posted by BillMurphy
@Xiaoki:

Perhaps you should read my comments and column again? I really think you've not quite seen my point.

  • In the column: "The problem is that in theory it’s entirely sound.  In practice… it takes away customization and the fun of leveling in many ways." Also in column: "By reducing the number of talents in this new system, the game has pretty much taken most of the choice out of raising your character and building him or her to your liking." In the comments: "In theory, I love the new talent system's IDEA.  I just think that one every 15 levels is too few.  One every five would make leveling more interesting, and give more variety in the process.  I understand that the old system was bloated with far too many "percents" and so forth.  But I feel this new system swung the pendulum too far back in the other direction." In comments again: "No, I dislike the talent system because it limits customization more than the previous system.  I didn't say the old system was perfect, and I certainly don't think this new one is.  It should meet somewhere in the middle."
These are all in line with each other. Also, please don't take the negative sides of a critique to mean I dislike World of Warcraft if that's what is upsetting you.  Quite the contrary, I'm one of the game's many fans.  But I'd hardly be doing my job if I didn't bring up the positives and negatives when writing a "Review in Progress" column.  

Edited for mistaken double-quote of the column.



The quote game is fun.


Leveling:
"it takes away customization and the fun of leveling in many ways"
"Instead of a talent point to spend every level after 10, you know only get a talent point every 15 levels."
"All it really did is make leveling more of a chore"
"When it used to be that every other level"
"Leveling, though faster than ever becomes a chore"
"Leveling a new character in the post MoP world is a LOT less interesting "
"I just think that one every 15 levels is too few."


And now customization:
"it takes away customization"
"the game has pretty much taken most of the choice out of raising your character"
"I dislike the talent system because it limits customization"
"massive steps back the game has taken in the character customization department."


What I take issue with are the people that immediately dismiss the new talent system when comparing it to the old talent tree system.


You say its because you want choice and customization. But wheres the choice in a +% crit talent? Even in the review you call this a useless "stat boost" talent. So, you're angry that Blizzard took away the talents you yourself have deemed useless?


If you were to actually go back and look at the old talent trees and remove all of the useless "stat boost" talents you end with 4 or 5 talents that would give you a new ability. So, upwards of 5 new abilities with the old talent trees is more customization than upwards of 6 with the new one. Um ....yeah.


Lastly, I would like to ask, how many buttons do you want? Classes already have around 30 abilities at level 90 to deal with. My Death Knight tank has 10 defensive cooldowns. Yes, thats right, 10! But for some reason this isnt enough? Will having upwards of 50 abilities be enough customization for you? 100? 200? How much customization is too much?

  BillMurphy

Managing Editor

Joined: 7/28/06
Posts: 1567

10/14/12 8:24:42 PM#50
Originally posted by Xiaoki

 

Lastly, I would like to ask, how many buttons do you want? Classes already have around 30 abilities at level 90 to deal with. My Death Knight tank has 10 defensive cooldowns. Yes, thats right, 10! But for some reason this isnt enough? Will having upwards of 50 abilities be enough customization for you? 100? 200? How much customization is too much?

Fair enough sir, we disagree.  I think the old trees had gotten too convoluted.  But I also think this new system is too simplistic. I loved, regardless of how "pointless" some spending of points was, making a choice every level with my talents.  Then it was even more seldom, and now it's few and far between.  

I remember when WoW allowed players to allocate their stats back in beta, a feature that was quickly removed because it was "too easy to ruin your stats".  But that same system was present in the Diablo games and it was heralded as one of its best points.  

For a very long time now, Blizzard has been taking a lot of choice away from character development in favor of balance and accessibility.  I'm not saying that's wrong.  I mean, hell they have over 10 million subscribers.  I'm just saying it's not my cup of tea.  

You ask how much custmization is too much? I'm not sure, for me, there is a limit.  But how little customization is too little (again for me)? This new talent system.

Edit: Oh, and I do see your point about the old trees.  Again, I'm not saying they were "the bestest".  But another poster in this  thread put it well.  You used to have something every level that made your character yours. If you wanted to raid, chances are you had to follow certain "builds".  But for me, I was playing my characters my way, and the simply act of choosing how my character grew every level is gone now.  It's something that I enjoyed, even if it was faulted.  But now, it's just not there.

I'm not trying to prove you wrong, Xiaoki.  I'm just laying out my point of view in hopes that you can understand it even if you disagree.  Because, you know... disagreement is okay.  :)

  Xiaoki

Hard Core Member

Joined: 3/07/04
Posts: 2369

10/14/12 8:51:47 PM#51


Originally posted by BillMurphy

Originally posted by Xiaoki   Lastly, I would like to ask, how many buttons do you want? Classes already have around 30 abilities at level 90 to deal with. My Death Knight tank has 10 defensive cooldowns. Yes, thats right, 10! But for some reason this isnt enough? Will having upwards of 50 abilities be enough customization for you? 100? 200? How much customization is too much?
Fair enough sir, we disagree.  I think the old trees had gotten too convoluted.  But I also think this new system is too simplistic. I loved, regardless of how "pointless" some spending of points was, making a choice every level with my talents.  Then it was even more seldom, and now it's few and far between.  

I remember when WoW allowed players to allocate their stats back in beta, a feature that was quickly removed because it was "too easy to ruin your stats".  But that same system was present in the Diablo games and it was heralded as one of its best points.  

For a very long time now, Blizzard has been taking a lot of choice away from character development in favor of balance and accessibility.  I'm not saying that's wrong.  I mean, hell they have over 10 million subscribers.  I'm just saying it's not my cup of tea.  

You ask how much custmization is too much? I'm not sure, for me, there is a limit.  But how little customization is too little (again for me)? This new talent system.

Edit: Oh, and I do see your point about the old trees.  Again, I'm not saying they were "the bestest".  But another poster in this  thread put it well.  You used to have something every level that made your character yours. If you wanted to raid, chances are you had to follow certain "builds".  But for me, I was playing my characters my way, and the simply act of choosing how my character grew every level is gone now.  It's something that I enjoyed, even if it was faulted.  But now, it's just not there.

I'm not trying to prove you wrong, Xiaoki.  I'm just laying out my point of view in hopes that you can understand it even if you disagree.  Because, you know... disagreement is okay.  :)



So, you liked spending the talent points every level even though you knew that most of your decisions were pointless or for talents that were useless?


"you have the illusion of choice"
- George Carlin


I just hope this personal bias doesnt influence the final review. But we'll see.

  Thupli

Advanced Member

Joined: 7/25/11
Posts: 352

10/14/12 9:09:12 PM#52

Xia is simply fleeced, for lack of a better word.

 

The criticisms are valid.  1 choice on your character every 15 levels?  No thanks.

  BillMurphy

Managing Editor

Joined: 7/28/06
Posts: 1567

10/14/12 9:16:36 PM#53

Yes, I did.  There wasn't an illusion,either.  You HAD a choice in the old system.  It was up to you to pick what you wanted, even if some were miniscule in their effect.  The old system was still the act of choosing what you wanted your character to be on a far more frequent basis. That is gone in the new system, and it makes for a far lesser game in my book.  As stated before, I like the intent of the new system. It's the execution that's lacking.  

As for the "personal bias" comment though? You do know that a review includes personal bias at its very core.  It's up to the reviewer to determine whether a game's content a.) functions b.) is entertaining and c.) does both well.  

Even if I loved everything else about Mists of Pandaria, were I writing the final review the simple fact that I dislike the changes to talents would influence the final score.  Because I deem the new system less than desirable.  It would be a strike against the game, because I believe it's a step backwards (admittedly while trying to take a step forward).  That's how these things work.  Just as you would rate new talents high on the list of pros, I would place it on the list of cons.  

A review is merely a detailed critique from one person's point of view on the subject matter.  The same subject matter is going to receive a range of different critiques, and there will be a lot of agreement and disagreement along that line.

And that's okay.  Different strokes, different folks, and all that.

 

  Vynt

Hard Core Member

Joined: 9/19/04
Posts: 589

10/14/12 9:46:26 PM#54

I enjoyed the old system, especially pre cata. I liked how I could do like 10 or 11 in combat then put a few in assassin. I use to raid, and could raid well with like 6 different specs. Heck, we had 6 different rogues that didn't have the same spec, and a couple of those I probably wouldn't use.

Even raiding you didn't need to min/max, as long as you contributed well. Didn't like the change to cata where I had to stay in one field until 31 points spent, but figured oh well, not too bad, little less customization but still decent. Now? lol, please. Can only be 1 of 3 now, instead of mixing and tweaking specs. Oh and I get to pick a "talent" every 15 levels, most of which I probably will rarely use and the ones that I would use, well pretty much it is the real only one to pick. Also a lot of these talents are the same for every class, further diluting the customization of your character.

The new talents would have been fine, if they added it to the previous skill points talents. This talent system is like EQ2, which alone would have sucked, but they have the AA system which brings a lot more customization. This kind of talent system is more of an addon, a hmm, cool I get something extra, not a main customization.

I love progression in my mmorpgs, customizing my character. If the game doesn't have enough of it for me, then it isn't worth playing.

 

  Xiaoki

Hard Core Member

Joined: 3/07/04
Posts: 2369

10/14/12 11:40:39 PM#55


Originally posted by BillMurphy
As for the "personal bias" comment though? You do know that a review includes personal bias at its very core.  It's up to the reviewer to determine whether a game's content a.) functions b.) is entertaining and c.) does both well.  

Even if I loved everything else about Mists of Pandaria, were I writing the final review the simple fact that I dislike the changes to talents would influence the final score.  Because I deem the new system less than desirable.  It would be a strike against the game, because I believe it's a step backwards (admittedly while trying to take a step forward).  That's how these things work.  Just as you would rate new talents high on the list of pros, I would place it on the list of cons.  

A review is merely a detailed critique from one person's point of view on the subject matter.  The same subject matter is going to receive a range of different critiques, and there will be a lot of agreement and disagreement along that line.

And that's okay.  Different strokes, different folks, and all that.

 



Going to quote from my first post in this topic.

"A review is just the opinion of one person but a good reviewer tries to be as objective as possible."


You admit that you will let your personal bias influence the final score of your review. So, how can we trust your review when we already know it will be tainted?

  Zorgo

Elite Member

Joined: 12/05/05
Posts: 2156

Who did wrong? The advertiser hired to sell the game or the consumer who put faith in advertising?

10/15/12 12:00:54 AM#56

Hey Bill -

You're right - Pandaren aren't serious. Say this out loud "Fighting Panda People". I don't think badass artwork can escape their nature. 

Remember - this is the world of gnomes dancing to 'sex bomb' and goat-people from outer space. 

That said. My Panda is badass.

 

 

  AegisSaga

Novice Member

Joined: 5/09/12
Posts: 33

10/15/12 12:31:36 AM#57

To make a review about WoW without touching its endgame content, specifically raiding, is like making a review of Big Mac based on the soda you bought with it without giving the burger a bite. The type of players who would play WoW based on its leveling alone are so casual, they don't visit sites like these. Most of them don't even know MoP released (Blizzard has said it in the past). 

 

WoW's meat is the raiding. There's no other MMO on the market that offers the huge raiding community, challenging heroic encounters, and variety that WoW does. Not even Rift, which is the second closest in my mind. WoW is not easy. Saying so based on leveling alone is like saying that Big Mac combo had no calories at all just because you bought diet coke. There's a reason why a huge "hardcore" community of players exist around WoW's heroic raiding progression, that doesn't exist around, say, GW2's 5 man dungeons. And this expansion is proving to be excellent in terms of that. There's a reason why WoW keeps a steady 10k+ viewers on streaming sites while games like GW2 only has about 500 or less. One word, hardcore progression raiding. 

 

But then again, I guess that's what we've come to expect from MMORPG.com in terms of WoW, right? After all, there's so many sites exclusively about WoW where people can go, sites like these inevitably tend to focus on other MMOs who don't have such big community. 

  Thupli

Advanced Member

Joined: 7/25/11
Posts: 352

10/15/12 12:41:05 AM#58

@Aegis

This is part 2, not a final review.   Knee -jerk much?  PS- What raids are released right now?  LOL

 

@Xia

He said "his opinion".  YOU are the one with the opinion that his opinion is tainted.  Are you that un-able to see what he is saying?  It's not that hard.  You like it, he doesn't.  Done.

  expresso

Tipster

Joined: 3/10/10
Posts: 2065

10/15/12 3:30:32 AM#59

Hey Bill thanks for speaking up, just so you know my comments were more on the content on this "in-progress" review and not on you as a person, infact I didn't even look to see who the reviewer was. 

But that does not escape my opinion that your explaination of the new Talent system was not complete, you gave an impression to readers who might be on the fence about jumping into MOP that you only get new skills and abilities every 15 levels.  Now I too think 15 levels is not ideal I would have liked a choice every 10, I think every 5 as you suggest would mean we go back to the +1% increases nonsense, but every 15 means you do get a meaningful choice and blizzard can build some nice flavours without repetition and filler abilities.

I would like to see an update that focuses on the new questing in MOP, especially four winds the journey to brew the best beer in Pandaria you take with Chen Stormstout and his Neice Li Li is some of the best questing in WoW and probably and MMO.

  Mothanos

Elite Member

Joined: 10/20/10
Posts: 1547

10/15/12 3:39:06 AM#60

Can you realy post a positive revieuw when the game we played 8 years ago turned into a hello kitty island adventure ?

Dumbed down mmo is dumbed down, offcourse you get negative revieuws.
Wait untill people get tired of the daily grinds and how MoP is just another xpac to milk the playerbase some more.

laughing realy hard at fanboys trying ot nuke down GW2 and defend WoW when its not even a shadow of what it used to be.

http://speedtest.net/result/2112016336.png

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