So we have all seen the trend to Free-to-play games with cash shops.

This is to attract income far in above to a set low P2P monthly subscription and it appears to be working.

The problem the industry has is that almost every month a new Asian mmorpg is being created with moderately paid devs and unless the publishers give good feedback or bug fixes done which they often don't players get bored very quickly and move on to a newer game to find the same thing.

it's time the industry invested more into supporting their games and not throw them out to the do little publishers.

There is a dying trend in F2P gaming, profit hungry companies superiors that don't want to invest in a good quality game offer poor support and move on to the next game to milk the same communities over and over again.

This is sad for the future gaming industry imo.

Originally posted by NortonGB

So we have all seen the trend to Free-to-play games with cash shops. As well as P2P games with cash shops as well.  

This is to attract income far in above to a set low P2P monthly subscription and it appears to be working. And also to attract players to a game that may not have a AAA budget or well known IP to attract Box Sales or paying subs.  F2P lowers the barriers and allows for more players to try out the game in an insanely competitive market.

The problem the industry has is that almost every month a new Asian mmorpg is being created with moderately paid devs and unless the publishers give good feedback or bug fixes done which they often don't players get bored very quickly and move on to a newer game to find the same thing.  I would argue that varying quality of MMO's isn't limited to F2P games, or even Asian games.  I've played plenty of P2P games that also lack polish, customer support and that get boring quickly.  

it's time the industry invested more into supporting their games and not throw them out to the do little publishers.  Again, this problem isn't limited to F2P games and is a plague in the industry in all levels.  Even Atari in the 1980's went through a period of crappy games just to make a buck.  Not a F2P problem, but I agree it is a problem. Thankfully there are so  many choices available, the crappy games don't last anyway.

There is a dying trend in F2P gaming, profit hungry companies superiors that don't want to invest in a good quality game offer poor support and move on to the next game to milk the same communities over and over again.  Again, blaming F2P doesn't make sense since the same can be said of many big profit gaming companies.  F2P, however, allows for more games to enter the market and brings about more competition and thus will allow for the better games to rise to the top.

This is sad for the future gaming industry imo.  This is a great time to be a gamer.  Considering that we've gone from what I had available on my Atari 2600 and what we can do now is amazing.  As gamers we are often tempted to become spoiled and focus only on the negatives.  Placing the blame on a payment model is a distraction from a real problem and that is gamers who believe the marketing and hype of a game without truly researching a game as to whether or not it's for them or not.   If a gamer doesn't like F2P Asian games, fine.  The solution is really easy - don't download it!  Problem solved.  Simply blaming gaming's ills on a payment model is just silly.

This post is typical of F2P-phobia.  Sweeping generalizations without any substance or even a single example.  I've posted my responses in green.

Originally posted by Valerosus
I tend to just lurk on this site but honestly I'm getting a little tired of seeing these threads.

Time to move on?    Cause they won't stop to pop up.

Ok here's an example: Aion is far better than many of the newer games and yet all Gameforge EU want to do it maintain a low cost support with only one dedicated programmer who has no time to do what is needed. Every week their cash shop is updated with months of delays for simple ncsoft patches, even a simple bug fix takes months.

Originally posted by NortonGB

Ok here's an example: Aion is far better than many of the newer games and yet all Gameforge EU want to do it maintain a low cost support with only one dedicated programmer who has no time to do what is needed. Every week their cash shop is updated with months of delays for simple ncsoft patches, even a simple bug fix takes months.

So because the game you like has poor support and doesn't do the things you want the whole f2p movement is the same? Smell like nerdrage to me.

Originally posted by Manestream
Not really, if a game comes out thats classed as an F2P, I and i know at least a dozen or so other people do not even look at it (usually stay well clear). If a P2P game goes into F2P mode you know its time to leave or that the days are numbered. They only go into this mode because its been a failure and that they just want to milk the loyal supporters of as much as they can before finally hammering the nail in the coffin and laying it to rest.

So you avoid certain games just because of a label? you are missing out on lots of great and free gaming but as they say ignorance is bliss. 

Originally posted by NortonGB

Ok here's an example: Aion is far better than many of the newer games and yet all Gameforge EU want to do it maintain a low cost support with only one dedicated programmer who has no time to do what is needed. Every week their cash shop is updated with months of delays for simple ncsoft patches, even a simple bug fix takes months.

Thats not realy exclusive to F2P, there are plenty of P2P games that went like that a long time as well. Vanguard before it went F2P this summer is a good example, it had nearly no updates whatsoever for 3 years.

I am not that found of F2P myself, but it is not how you as customers pay the companies that affect how large team a game have or how much money a company invest in it from launch.

F2Ps bad side is that it generally is actually more expensive to play them at the endgame than P2P and that it often becomes pay2win. And it is fun disliking F2P, after all have companies like EA and Activision ideas to make all computer games F2P and they hardly say that out of kindness. They expect more profit, preferably a lot more. And we will have to pay for it. Personally do I think this instead will lead to a second comming of software pirates and we might get back to the old C-64 and Amiga days where almost all games were pirated.

So I dont like F2P games either, but dont blame the payment method on stuff it have nothing to do with. If Aion have a small crew it is because it doesnt have enough players/income and changing the model back to P2P would change nothing.

Theres a BIG difference between the Asian and western free to play models . Personally I prefer free to play to subscription models because I can just play the content when I want to without worrying whether I'm getting value for money .

As for it dieing don't make me laugh if anything its growing .

Originally posted by Valerosus
I tend to just lurk on this site but honestly I'm getting a little tired of seeing these threads.

Then go back to lurking and don't read them. No one forces you to click on a link and read a thread you're not interested in.

Simple, right?

The OP makes a valid point, and one that is becoming increasingly clear to more and more people as time goes on.

F2P is intended to "milk" players for all the developer can. They are designed that way, and this is a known fact. The result is that more effort goes into finding ways to monetize players through deliberately imposed limitations, speed-bumps and handicaps which can all be "paid away" via cash shop purchases, than is going into finding new and interesting ways to actually entertain the players enough for them to actually want to stick around and play month after month.

The players are steadily beginning to realize it and are becoming more and more vocal about it. This is a good thing.

Regarding the OP, I personally hope the industry soon hits a point where that "bubble" bursts, big publishers decide MMOs aren't a good place for them, they all run and dig their greedy fingers into the social-gaming scene, and get the hell out of MMOs. They've done more than enough damage at this point already.

Then we can get back to having MMORPGs designed by gamers who understand the genre, where it came from and it was intended to be. I'd prefer that over them being designed by market analysts, bean counters and suits who are couldn't shoot their way out of a wet-paper bag with instructions and a starter hole, because they'd be more concerned about how much doing so would affect their bottom line.

MMORPGs have become a cash grab to the big game developers and publishers, and the players are nothing more than open wallets to them.

So games with a monthly fee and an item shop are better?

Originally posted by NortonGB

Ok here's an example: Aion is far better than many of the newer games and yet all Gameforge EU want to do it maintain a low cost support with only one dedicated programmer who has no time to do what is needed. Every week their cash shop is updated with months of delays for simple ncsoft patches, even a simple bug fix takes months.

Aion (which I played in beta and at launch) had serious issues even when the game was supposed to take the West by storm. My opinion is that each game should be looked at on a case by case basis rather than a sweeping statement about F2P or greedy publishers.  I don't feel that it's greedy to keep a game alive instead of closing the doors when the sub fee didn't generate the revenue they had hoped.  Players should be thankful that the game is still availabe to play.  While I agree that it's not staffed the way it shoudl be, we must consider the alternative in Aion's case.  Keep the doors open with minimal staff or close the doors.  No company is going to spend more on support staff than the game can financially support.  If NCSoft has proven anything it's that they won't keep a game running that doesn't make money (i.e., City of Heroes).

Originally posted by obii

So games with a monthly fee and an item shop are better?

 

Nope. Cash shop is bad also in p2p games.

Originally posted by obii

So games with a monthly fee and an item shop are better?

 

False dichotomies aren't arguments.

And, no, P2P with cash shops aren't better. I'd argue it's worse because it's double-dipping.

Cash Shops are bad, period. In-game items should be obtained in-game by playing it. If they want to get more money from players, then offer them real items of some value. Shirts, collectibles, keychains, mouse-pads, etc. Those things would be every bit as "optional" as their in-game counterparts, but at least they're real items and have no impact on the game design or gameplay.

The correct response is: P2P with a monthly subscription, period. Either with an initial box fee + sub or, if the developer can make it work, subscription with no initial box fee.

You should buy the game, pay a monthly sub fee for the on-going support and service, and that's it. Nice. Simple. Straight-forward. No room for shenanigans through dubious cash shop practices.

And if the trend is dying that developers don't support their games why so pesimistic :)

The days will come when EA supports a game and not just milk it. When Blizzard offers timely updates and not every blue moon.

When developers interact with their customers and at least explain some crappy design decisions.

One talk I had with a developer why he did not introduce one feature for a year was 'I do not like toggled features'  :P

He introduced a toggle in the end though so kuddos to him :)

Originally posted by roo67

Theres a BIG difference between the Asian and western free to play models . Personally I prefer free to play to subscription models because I can just play the content when I want to without worrying whether I'm getting value for money .

As for it dieing don't make me laugh if anything its growing .

Interesting thought.  I guess I hadn't really looked at the differences between eastern and western cash shops.  I would say that cash shops are an evolving creature that hasn't yet reached it's peak.  There is such a fine line betwen a cash shop that can't generate revenue and a cash shop that is pay to win.  Not an easy task, to be sure.  It's been successful in Asia for years and is still somewhat frowned upon in the West.  I do think, however, that Western companies are finally getting a grip on how to  do them correctly. 

Originally posted by obii

And if the trend is dying that developers don't support their games why so pesimistic :)

The days will come when EA supports a game and not just milk it. When Blizzard offers timely updates and not every blue moon.

When developers interact with their customers and at least explain some crappy design decisions.

One talk I had with a developer why he did not introduce one feature for a year was 'I do not like toggled features'  :P

He introduced a toggle in the end though so kuddos to him :)

 

They'll have to implode, or come close to it, before that happens.

There's an obvious arrogance among big game developers where, no matter what their players are actually telling them, they're going to ignore all that and do whatever their analysts and bean counters tell them is "the right thing". Their decisions are based on milking more of their customers' money, not providing their customers better entertainment or service.

CDProjekt, the people behind The Witcher games, said it themselves... Gamers are treated like milking cows instead of as valued customers.