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News & Features Discussion  » [Editorial] General: How F2P Is Killing Gaming – Part Two

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101 posts found
  Isane

Advanced Member

Joined: 5/24/06
Posts: 2696

"Some do , Some don''t , Others just cry"

Jean Sali

10/13/12 4:35:30 PM#61

Last community I experienced was in Asherons Call (AC1) and before the EQ, even a little in EQ2.

The real problem is the cheap internet , cheap and badly designed games, for people who generally pay less than in the old days, when you needed a bank loan to play n the net. The cheapness has opened the doors for the masses/ unemployed and those with a lower I.Q based solely on the maths of the masses.

In the good old days , people who didn't work couldn't  afford the internet connections. So you still had idiots but educated/Working ones, who wanted more than a button mash out of the games.

Insta win features and automation are what have killed the genre for what it should be. And turned it into mindless trash with no depth or longevity.

 

 

 

________________________________________________________
SWTOR and COS games that could deliver !!

  Po_gg

Elite Member

Joined: 5/12/10
Posts: 2012

10/13/12 5:30:46 PM#62
Originally posted by Cymdai
F2P "evolved" in my mind because developers said to themselves "Why get $12.95 a month from 200,000 people when we could snatch up anywhere from $5-100 a month from MILLIONS of players?"

Maybe I'm wrong, but this is what I ment when wrote that they only following the demand. They can make this transition only because the playerbase are widening, and the priorities among the players are shifting towards easy access and microtransactions.

And also that's why I wrote f2p is a quite logical step from the publishers: why chasing the actual mmo players, who already have their well-known games, their routines, guilds, etc., when there's a much larger group, which is easily accessible - and as a side-effect, focusing them brings in a sh**load of money... What we see in the last 1-1.5 years is simply more and more companies slowly adjusting their focus onto this people. The companies didn't created this group (they mostly came from portable devices, consoles, flash games or facebook), the companies only realised that they can lure them in to the mmo market as well. And it seems working, few years ago f2p ment crappy failure, nowadays most games are starting as f2p... Of course, maybe I'm totally wrong with this. Just my 2 cents.

 

Originally posted by Cymdai

 

P2P can be catered towards very specific niches in the market. Eve Online is a great example; the community is essentially player-run, and has a very set and established group of players who have been around for YEARS! I'd dare to say it has one of the most established communities ever created in an MMORPG. It's tried multiple new things, but it stays true to it's loyal and dedicated fans, relying on the product to sell itself, moreso than a cash shop to fund it's development.

Funny you mention Eve, one of the rare truly f2p games :) Not in the meaning as we using f2p generally, but plex gives you free play, without any restriction (since you are the same paying customer, just you got your month via playing). Of course it's not the same as f2p games, someone has to buy plex in the first place, so CCP won't lose money by it. But it could've affected the playerbase, like it happened with other games. I guess what's kept it fairly intact, is that Eve don't have easy access, one of the main attribute of f2p's. Eve's beginning is hard, slow, and need some learning, not some "tutorial, talk to npc, lvl2, go kill some mob, lvl3," etc :)

  AdamTM

Novice Member

Joined: 5/05/05
Posts: 1395

I'M PUNCHING YOUR SALAD!!!!

10/13/12 5:37:20 PM#63
Originally posted by Po_gg
Originally posted by Cymdai
F2P "evolved" in my mind because developers said to themselves "Why get $12.95 a month from 200,000 people when we could snatch up anywhere from $5-100 a month from MILLIONS of players?"

Maybe I'm wrong, but this is what I ment when wrote that they only following the demand. They can make this transition only because the playerbase are widening, and the priorities among the players are shifting towards easy access and microtransactions.

And also that's why I wrote f2p is a quite logical step from the publishers: why chasing the actual mmo players, who already have their well-known games, their routines, guilds, etc., when there's a much larger group, which is easily accessible - and as a side-effect, focusing them brings in a sh**load of money... What we see in the last 1-1.5 years is simply more and more companies slowly adjusting their focus onto this people. The companies didn't created this group (they mostly came from portable devices, consoles, flash games or facebook), the companies only realised that they can lure them in to the mmo market as well. And it seems working, few years ago f2p ment crappy failure, nowadays most games are starting as f2p... Of course, maybe I'm totally wrong with this. Just my 2 cents.

 

Originally posted by Cymdai

 

P2P can be catered towards very specific niches in the market. Eve Online is a great example; the community is essentially player-run, and has a very set and established group of players who have been around for YEARS! I'd dare to say it has one of the most established communities ever created in an MMORPG. It's tried multiple new things, but it stays true to it's loyal and dedicated fans, relying on the product to sell itself, moreso than a cash shop to fund it's development.

Funny you mention Eve, one of the rare truly f2p games :) Not in the meaning as we using f2p generally, but plex gives you free play, without any restriction (since you are the same paying customer, just you got your month via playing). Of course it's not the same as f2p games, someone has to buy plex in the first place, so CCP won't lose money by it. But it could've affected the playerbase, like it happened with other games. I guess what's kept it fairly intact, is that Eve don't have easy access, one of the main attribute of f2p's. Eve's beginning is hard, slow, and need some learning, not some "tutorial, talk to npc, lvl2, go kill some mob, lvl3," etc :)

Funny you mention EVE in the context of F2P, because for me EVE is a truly P2W game.

The longer (more) you pay, the better you get, with no input required whatsoever.

Different perspectives I guess.

  smeltn

Novice Member

Joined: 6/20/09
Posts: 3

10/13/12 7:36:24 PM#64

I thought SWG was a great game until they screwed it up with that last combat patch.. 

 

 

Speaking of F2P MMO's.  I just purchased a Macbook a few weeks ago and am looking for a good f2p mmo to play on it? Any suggestions? 

 

 

smeltn Xfire Miniprofile
  pressedNutz

Advanced Member

Joined: 2/03/05
Posts: 36

10/13/12 7:51:06 PM#65

It makes me sad that people are blaming a financial structure rather than themselves for an apparent (in their minds) loss of some non-existent golden days of community'.

Community is not based on an echelon of people with money willing to pay a monthly. Not to mention you site the failures of games a that are not even MMOs or are based on a completely different financial metric.

Community sculpts itself outside of the realm of finance. Community building has NOTHING to do with a financial model. A community fails because it doesn't have support. A community succeeds when it has support.

Fr00bs do not kill a game with trollish interactions in a game. WoW has the most trollish community ever and those people pay a monthly. In fact the opposite is true now that some games are F2P. Those who pay a monthly have some perverse need to feel superior and become trollish in some sad attempt to distinguish themselves.

Subscription models by and large have the MOST ignorant cast of players in the realm of MMOs. It is player's inflated sense of self worth that ruins a community. It is flame wars on forum threads and blow-hards with too much time complaining on every board they can find trying to force companies to sculpt an existing game into what they want to get out of it. Companies that cave to these people on the forums generally fail and those that stick to their guns and put out the best game they know how to without trying to nerf everything under the sun do the best.

The problem is people who post self referential comments stating that so and so said the same thing they are saying on X forum when it was themselves who made Y posts on forums A-Z. Game producers lurk in all these forums and often don't see through the trickery and often make bad decisions based on false evidence which then ruins a game. Then the players who were making that community great get disenfranchised with pointless changes and make an exodus from the game leaving behind only the trolls to whine and dine.

The fact is community is not something you can force into your little box of personal preference.

"Ask yourself “Hmmm… when was the last time I played a game where I didn’t enjoy just the game, but the community as well?”. I suspect you’ll be hard-pressed to come up with an answer."

This just goes to show you are not interacting well with others. You can create any kind of community you want through your interactions with others. It also goes to show that you are playing games to squeeze the most out of them ignoring the potential to make new relationships based on your preconceived notions of the community base.

Customer service is also a company to company thing and has ZERO again to do with the financial structure of revenue. It has EVERYTHING to do with how much stake a company has in a specific title. The fact is that the micro transaction model makes a lot of money. Sometimes companies don't have good support regardless of how much money a title makes.

See: SOE for example. Sony has had rubbish customer support in every game they have ever run, no matter what financial model they used. Why is this? Because Sony has many revenue streams outside of videogames. Videogames are just more icing on their already giant market share in electronics and media.

Next time you write an article painting entire communities into your preconceived corner do some research. Bias arguments like this are just ignorant and inflammatory.

  Ausare

Novice Member

Joined: 3/23/11
Posts: 870

10/13/12 7:59:09 PM#66
I love the talk of communities getting worse then i see all the "old school" people on this site and others treating each other with hate and venom. Makes me think nothing has changed if the "old schoolers" are from the supposed golden age of mmo communities.
  TalulaRose

Apprentice Member

Joined: 6/27/12
Posts: 407

10/13/12 8:00:23 PM#67
Originally posted by pressedNutz

It makes me sad that people are blaming a financial structure rather than themselves for an apparent (in their minds) loss of some non-existent golden days of community'.

Community is not based on an echelon of people with money willing to pay a monthly. Not to mention you site the failures of games a that are not even MMOs or are based on a completely different financial metric.

Community sculpts itself outside of the realm of finance. Community building has NOTHING to do with a financial model. A community fails because it doesn't have support. A community succeeds when it has support.

Fr00bs do not kill a game with trollish interactions in a game. WoW has the most trollish community ever and those people pay a monthly. In fact the opposite is true now that some games are F2P. Those who pay a monthly have some perverse need to feel superior and become trollish in some sad attempt to distinguish themselves.

Subscription models by and large have the MOST ignorant cast of players in the realm of MMOs. It is player's inflated sense of self worth that ruins a community. It is flame wars on forum threads and blow-hards with too much time complaining on every board they can find trying to force companies to sculpt an existing game into what they want to get out of it. Companies that cave to these people on the forums generally fail and those that stick to their guns and put out the best game they know how to without trying to nerf everything under the sun do the best.

The problem is people who post self referential comments stating that so and so said the same thing they are saying on X forum when it was themselves who made Y posts on forums A-Z. Game producers lurk in all these forums and often don't see through the trickery and often make bad decisions based on false evidence which then ruins a game. Then the players who were making that community great get disenfranchised with pointless changes and make an exodus from the game leaving behind only the trolls to whine and dine.

The fact is community is not something you can force into your little box of personal preference.

"Ask yourself “Hmmm… when was the last time I played a game where I didn’t enjoy just the game, but the community as well?”. I suspect you’ll be hard-pressed to come up with an answer."

This just goes to show you are not interacting well with others. You can create any kind of community you want through your interactions with others. It also goes to show that you are playing games to squeeze the most out of them ignoring the potential to make new relationships based on your preconceived notions of the community base.

Customer service is also a company to company thing and has ZERO again to do with the financial structure of revenue. It has EVERYTHING to do with how much stake a company has in a specific title. The fact is that the micro transaction model makes a lot of money. Sometimes companies don't have good support regardless of how much money a title makes.

See: SOE for example. Sony has had rubbish customer support in every game they have ever run, no matter what financial model they used. Why is this? Because Sony has many revenue streams outside of videogames. Videogames are just more icing on their already giant market share in electronics and media.

Next time you write an article painting entire communities into your preconceived corner do some research. Bias arguments like this are just ignorant and inflammatory.

TSW....wasn't hard at all.

  Sunscour

Advanced Member

Joined: 8/22/09
Posts: 136

Go Outside!!

10/13/12 8:00:48 PM#68

It is a well know fact (ask my bank) that I am a buyer, and I buy crap. Vanity stuff, I'm on it, Upgrades, that's for me...

I am torn about F2P, I like the initial flexability of F2P, but I enjoy playing with others that are willing to commit to playing something.

Don't know how I feel, Conflicted?

Life is Short, Read a Book.

  Darkcrystal

Advanced Member

Joined: 5/06/10
Posts: 765

10/14/12 3:33:08 AM#69
Originally posted by Purutzil
The main reason G2P is hurting gaming isn't that they exist as much as the fact there are SO MANY F2P games out there.The over-abundance of them is what is driving down games. This is only made worst by many of them being cash grabs that in some aspects work.

GW2 is not hurting the industry LOL,  many, many people aren't not playing the game and already have quit like they have every other game after release... SO you GW2 fanboi's can get off your high horse , WOW has been on top fo years and they have a sub fee....

 

GW2 also has microtrans stores so its NOT b2p game, you have to spend money to get things, I rarher pay 15 bucks which is nothing than have this so called B2P , and if you didn't spend money then you didn't get everything out of the game that you would with a game with a sub.

 

F2P is killing the market, I'm in the field of gaming and worked for companys that have done F2P and P2P, I hear more crying in the office with F2P because they have to think of ways to make money, sub costs , its because of the gamers today and way to many games , they want everything for free and in the end if they don't get it for free they get upset aka SOny way of F2P is NOT free..

 

No F2P is free you would spend more money with F2P than sub in the end if you got the same things, I still sub to games I wanna play to get what I want when I want , I don't want to be stopped because I have to pay for this and that and it costs more in the end of the year...

  Robokapp

Hard Core Member

Joined: 11/15/09
Posts: 4606

The only luck I had today was to have you as my opponent.

10/14/12 3:37:28 AM#70
Originally posted by Darkcrystal
Originally posted by Purutzil
The main reason G2P is hurting gaming isn't that they exist as much as the fact there are SO MANY F2P games out there.The over-abundance of them is what is driving down games. This is only made worst by many of them being cash grabs that in some aspects work.

GW2 is not hurting the industry LOL,  many, many people aren't not playing the game and already have quit like they have every other game after release... SO you GW2 fanboi's can get off your high horse , WOW has been on top fo years and they have a sub fee....

 

GW2 also has microtrans stores so its NOT b2p game, you have to spend money to get things, I rarher pay 15 bucks which is nothing than have this so called B2P , and if you didn't spend money then you didn't get everything out of the game that you would with a game with a sub.

 

F2P is killing the market, I'm in the field of gaming and worked for companys that have done F2P and P2P, I hear more crying in the office with F2P because they have to think of ways to make money, sub costs , its because of the gamers today and way to many games , they want everything for free and in the end if they don't get it for free they get upset aka SOny way of F2P is NOT free..

 

No F2P is free you would spend more money with F2P than sub in the end if you got the same things, I still sub to games I wanna play to get what I want when I want , I don't want to be stopped because I have to pay for this and that and it costs more in the end of the year...

your whole post is the result of him hitting the button to the right of F by mistake once.

  Darkcrystal

Advanced Member

Joined: 5/06/10
Posts: 765

10/14/12 3:42:34 AM#71
Originally posted by Isane

Last community I experienced was in Asherons Call (AC1) and before the EQ, even a little in EQ2.

The real problem is the cheap internet , cheap and badly designed games, for people who generally pay less than in the old days, when you needed a bank loan to play n the net. The cheapness has opened the doors for the masses/ unemployed and those with a lower I.Q based solely on the maths of the masses.

In the good old days , people who didn't work couldn't  afford the internet connections. So you still had idiots but educated/Working ones, who wanted more than a button mash out of the games.

Insta win features and automation are what have killed the genre for what it should be. And turned it into mindless trash with no depth or longevity.

 

 

 
 

I to play AC1 for 7 years since beta, but what killing is that people do not look for indie mmo's most of them are great buggy, yes, but great ideas and players do not support them like they should  if they did more, we would get more games, by gamers, for gamers, so its the gamers fault.

Big comanys want money , indies want good games, so to fix this start supporting indies more and using kickstarter more if you people want better games,

So many gamers are trying to design games and have great ideas and have the experince to do so, but its tough to get what you want done unless you have a ton of money, so if we support more indies we will see , if not then you people can keep getting these so called clones, and complain more.

 

 

I went to school, and been doing game design for a reason to help make better games for us because I to was sick of what we see in MMO's, also hate to say it mobile apps are gonna take over...

  fenistil

Novice Member

Joined: 9/22/11
Posts: 3016

10/14/12 5:37:23 AM#72
For me it is microtransactions, cash shops, gold selling, gazzilion of DLC's and things like rmah's that are ruining experience.    Does not have to be f2p or freemium.
  SpottyGekko

Elite Member

Joined: 9/26/04
Posts: 2890

10/14/12 5:52:39 AM#73
Originally posted by troublmaker

Blaming the growth of free to play games to a weak community is like blaming the growth of low income housing to the death of your inner city community.

No the real killer for the community is the growth of the industry period.  When there was a community it was because the industry was so niche that maybe only a million or two were actually doing it.  Now you're looking at an industry of 50-100M people.  When your population booms the specialness of small numbers vanishes.

It has nothing at all to do with the free to play model.  The fact that the free to play model has increased the size of the community total by trying to get people to play their games means THEIR communities are probably bad.

If anything you might be able to attribute the death of the community in cities instead on the increase in low income housing but instead on the decrease of high income housing.  There are TONES of communities in my city... you just have to go to the suburbs which are technically outside of city limits to get to it.  Beyond those burbs the rest of the city is immigrants... new arrivals.

If you need further proof look to World of Warcraft, which isn't free to play.  This game is huge and barely has a community, not a free to play game.  On the other hand Eve's community is so small that they work with the developers to help develop the game.

I think the author has confused correlation with causation.

Next up why having high self esteem doesn't cause high performance in school.

I believe you've nailed it.

 

In the beginning, the amount of MMO players was small (compared to today) and all lived in "villages" (i.e. Meridian 59, UO, early EQ). Everyone knew everyone else, and there was a real sense of community. There wasn't much mobility, you tended to stay in your village for years, because there wasn't another one that suited you as well.

But as the population of MMO'ers grew, so did the amount of villages (new games). People started moving from their place of birth to other villages. Soon some cities formed (WoW ?).

In cities there is no single community. Almost everyone you see on the street every day is a total stranger. Only in your neighborhood (i.e. guild) do you actually know people.

Nowadays, new villages are formed often, but they are instantly populated by visitors from many big cities, who all want to live there because it's new and trendy and exciting. But they leave after a month or two, either because a newer village opened up, or they missed the comforts of their big city...

 
  kaiser3282

Tipster

Joined: 5/21/08
Posts: 2639

10/14/12 6:00:03 AM#74
Originally posted by Darkcrystal
Originally posted by Purutzil
The main reason G2P is hurting gaming isn't that they exist as much as the fact there are SO MANY F2P games out there.The over-abundance of them is what is driving down games. This is only made worst by many of them being cash grabs that in some aspects work.

GW2 is not hurting the industry LOL,  many, many people aren't not playing the game and already have quit like they have every other game after release... SO you GW2 fanboi's can get off your high horse , WOW has been on top fo years and they have a sub fee....

 

GW2 also has microtrans stores so its NOT b2p game, you have to spend money to get things, I rarher pay 15 bucks which is nothing than have this so called B2P , and if you didn't spend money then you didn't get everything out of the game that you would with a game with a sub.

 

F2P is killing the market, I'm in the field of gaming and worked for companys that have done F2P and P2P, I hear more crying in the office with F2P because they have to think of ways to make money, sub costs , its because of the gamers today and way to many games , they want everything for free and in the end if they don't get it for free they get upset aka SOny way of F2P is NOT free..

 

No F2P is free you would spend more money with F2P than sub in the end if you got the same things, I still sub to games I wanna play to get what I want when I want , I don't want to be stopped because I have to pay for this and that and it costs more in the end of the year...

1) He didnt say ANYTHING about GW2. He accidentally typed G instead of F for F2P. Also, it says G2P not GW2 anyway. Nice blind childish rage over absolutely nothing because you somehow interpret any acronym that starts with a G to = GW2.

2) You do NOT need to buy anything in GW2. You can get every single thing in the shop for free through in game gold. FFS you can even buy the upgraded version of the game with its perks  via farming money in game and exchanging for gems.

3) The idea that F2P costs more than P2P only applies if youre some dimwitted tool who has no self control that whips out their credit card every time they see some flashy ad. Nobody is forcing you to buy those things. The people that do buy it, buy it because they feel it is a fair exchange of money for a service / item.  Ive played dozens of F2P games over several years. Ive spent money in maybe 5 or 6 of them that I felt were worthwhile. Playing dozens of P2P games over 5 or so years would have cost me several thousand dollars in box costs + subs.The entire premise of F2P games is getting lots of players wh dont pay along with some who do pay. Being free draws in players who might not play the game otherwise, and the paying players wouldnt pay if there was no population. Having more free players gives players with $ more reason to spend it. The fact that you dont know these things raises doubts that youre in the gaming field at all.

BTW, you say you dont want to be stopped because you have to pay for this and that. What exactly do you call your subscription? If you didnt pay your sub, you would be stopped and completely cut off from the game.

  jpaprocki

Apprentice Member

Joined: 9/23/09
Posts: 229

10/14/12 7:40:57 AM#75

It's more than the F2P model it's the I want everything for FREE generation that is killing it.  How many times do you see "I think this game should be free" or I don't want to explore, I want to reach the end as fast as I can".  That is today's gamer.  F2P fills both those needs better than a P2P game.

The industry sees that so they want to get in on all those people playing  games.  The more they can get playing the better chance someone will buy something.  If you really want to blame someone, just look in the mirror and ask yourself if your not part of the problem.

It all boils down to this "Coporate greed and todays gamer".  Vote with your walle.

I'm not an IT Specialist, Game Developer, or Clairvoyant in real life, but like others on here, I play one on the internet.

  Cymdai

Advanced Member

Joined: 6/05/05
Posts: 1085

It's my job to be objective, it's my right to have an opinion.

10/14/12 8:21:24 AM#76

There are some really good, well-thought-out posts here.

However, I'd just like to say, to the particularly angry, aggressive, hostile posters in the thread. This is an editorial. It's my perception of things. I realize that we're obviously blessed to have so many video game historians, as evident by this thread, however, this is not a scientific feature. I'm not here to do an in-depth, empirically-sound article. If that's what you're looking for, you're going to drive yourself into a frenzy. 

Opinion piece, people!

I just wanted to chime in because I could actually feel some people's blood pressure elevating in this thread!

Waiting for something fresh to arrive on the MMO scene...

  Brixon

Novice Member

Joined: 7/01/04
Posts: 253

10/14/12 8:39:16 AM#77
F2P didn't kill the community aspect of MMO's, the lack of a need for them killed it.
  SpottyGekko

Elite Member

Joined: 9/26/04
Posts: 2890

10/14/12 8:59:49 AM#78

/sarcasm on

 

I believe that F2P games are built on the "3 month principle". You could unlock everything in the Cash Shop via normal game play if you played the game for 3 months. But the majority of players know they won't last that long before hopping to the next game, so they pay for goodies to use before they "finish with the game" in 2 months.

 

/sarcasm off

  crazynanny

Apprentice Member

Joined: 9/03/10
Posts: 175

10/14/12 9:19:19 AM#79
Whenever I have to think what to buy in cash shop in order to play/craft/PvP I'm done with the game. Because even if I buy it there will always be next thing, devs will make sure of that. I may sound bitter but this was exactly my experience in LOTRO. From all about adventure with friends into how to make smart buy in Turbine Mall.

This also showed me that in F2P games devs can and WILL build game around cash shop. Of course it will start with few cosmetics that are completely optional and promises that we won't make it P2W.

As for good/bad community it's more about GMs and policies in game and @forums. If people feel moderation and have to respect some rules the nice one will be louder while douchebaggery will be quiet or banned. If mentality I pay therefore I can be complete ass triumphs, you have awful community despite having box and subscription as in WoW. I feel that rule enforcement, especially supported by good part of the community has much bigger and wider influence than price of box as the thing that stops people from bad behavior.

 Because if we have player A from F2P and B from P2P invest 1 year into game, they will both try to respect rules as they fear losing all progress, regardless of sub or not. But if they both just checking game, box price isn't high enough cost to make people behave nice, not to mention some will feel entitled to be THE customer as the have paid money.
  Wraithone

Hard Core Member

Joined: 7/09/04
Posts: 3566

If you can't kill it, don't make it mad.

10/14/12 9:25:21 AM#80

This "community" you speak of is an abstract, an illusion if you will.  Its little more than a series of snap shots of your interactions with other individuals. If those tend to be "good" (from your perspective) then the "community" is "good".  The same applies to "bad".

Once a game moves from niche, to the general population, those snap shots will also tend to degrade.  The fact is that the overwhelming majority of todays population has serious "issues".  Starting with a lack of attention span, no concept of civil discourse, and top it all off with a *thick* layer of entitlement.  

Mix that in with a business model that is all about cutting as many corners as possible (or more) and focuses on the short term (quarterly) profit, with lots of media hype and marketing, and you have the current situation. 

What the suits don't know (nor would they care if they did, I suspect) is that this creates a toxic feed back system, that actively ruins the industry itself.  Once things get bad enough, they will simply bail, and move on to some other activity. After all, they are only in it for the money, any way. 

Kickstarter may well be a way forward, but the jury is still out on how effective its going to be. 

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