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Star Wars: The Old Republic

Star Wars: The Old Republic 

General Discussion  » Biowares f2p model, bringing segregation back!

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108 posts found
  william0532

Novice Member

Joined: 7/16/11
Posts: 240

 
OP  10/13/12 11:10:06 PM#1

So I was looking at their f2p model and really had to laugh. According to their differences between subs and f2p players chart http://www.swtor.com/free/features you can see that their will be two distinct classes of players. The freemium players won't be able to compete in pvp(with one warzone a day limit you will never have warhero gear), meaning you will be garbage in pvp. "Thats ok, I'm a raider" you say? Well, you are not allowed to do any raids.

This means that subscription players will not let you into their guild, and why should they, you would be utterly worthless. So basically their new model is going to create a population of bums floating around the galaxy? Maybe they will allow pan handling at starports for cartel coins?

if I come off as trashing free to play, players, or subscription players, I really am not trying to accomplish that. I'm just pointing out the segregation in community that this system will create.

 

Did I mention that free players have limited auction house usuge? Congratulations on being broke.(see pan handling comment above)

Limited travel options? Awesome, so maybe TOR will be the first game to have hitchhiking? ###, gas, or grass?

I usually don't argue for one system or another and usually judge game's by whether or not they are fun; However I'm seriously confused by this model, wouldn't it be better to just announce that free to play is instead a free trial in an attempt to move boxs instead of coming up with this half witted attempt? Both would rake in some needed cash, but the system they are implementing just seems horrible. Am I missing something?

  SuperDonk

Hard Core Member

Joined: 6/22/10
Posts: 698

10/13/12 11:16:56 PM#2

At least the F2P will allow you to pretend it is Kotor 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, and 8 like they said it was prior to launch. Drop in play the stories and drop back out.

 

That is if they let you complete the story quests on F2P.

I want to be Uncle Owen again.

  Johnie-Marz

Novice Member

Joined: 11/19/09
Posts: 860

10/13/12 11:24:43 PM#3
Originally posted by william0532

So I was looking at their f2p model and really had to laugh. According to their differences between subs and f2p players chart http://www.swtor.com/free/features you can see that their will be two distinct classes of players. The freemium players won't be able to compete in pvp(with one warzone a day limit you will never have warhero gear), meaning you will be garbage in pvp. "Thats ok, I'm a raider" you say? Well, you are not allowed to do any raids.

This means that subscription players will not let you into their guild, and why should they, you would be utterly worthless. So basically their new model is going to create a population of bums floating around the galaxy? Maybe they will allow pan handling at starports for cartel coins?

if I come off as trashing free to play, players, or subscription players, I really am not trying to accomplish that. I'm just pointing out the segregation in community that this system will create.

 

Did I mention that free players have limited auction house usuge? Congratulations on being broke.(see pan handling comment above)

Limited travel options? Awesome, so maybe TOR will be the first game to have hitchhiking? ###, gas, or grass?

I usually don't argue for one system or another and usually judge game's by whether or not they are fun; However I'm seriously confused by this model, wouldn't it be better to just announce that free to play is instead a free trial in an attempt to move boxs instead of coming up with this half witted attempt? Both would rake in some needed cash, but the system they are implementing just seems horrible. Am I missing something?

Yes you are missing, free is not free.

In fact many "Free" games make more money than when they were subscription. That is why they when "Free" to begin with.

To answer your more specific questions. You will probably get limited access to the things you discribe-- unless you pay for it. If you want to have more access to PVP then you will have to pay. If you want premium classes then you will have to pay. 

A subscription is when you pay a single price and get what you pay for .

Free to play is when you get nickel and dimed by the company until you realize you spent more money on "Free" than you would have with a subscription.

But hey, Free to play is the wave of the future... Yay?

  william0532

Novice Member

Joined: 7/16/11
Posts: 240

 
OP  10/13/12 11:24:58 PM#4
Originally posted by SuperDonk

At least the F2P will allow you to pretend it is Kotor 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, and 8 like they said it was prior to launch. Drop in play the stories and drop back out.

 

That is if they let you complete the story quests on F2P.

They do let you play to level 50 which are the end's of the main story quests. Which is kind of why I wondered why they didn't just do a free trial to level 50 model instead of this f2p setup.

  karmath

Novice Member

Joined: 8/24/05
Posts: 841

10/13/12 11:26:29 PM#5
Oh SWTOR, how you brighten my day with your constant hillarity. 
  william0532

Novice Member

Joined: 7/16/11
Posts: 240

 
OP  10/13/12 11:28:41 PM#6
Originally posted by Johnie-Marz
Originally posted by william0532

So I was looking at their f2p model and really had to laugh. According to their differences between subs and f2p players chart http://www.swtor.com/free/features you can see that their will be two distinct classes of players. The freemium players won't be able to compete in pvp(with one warzone a day limit you will never have warhero gear), meaning you will be garbage in pvp. "Thats ok, I'm a raider" you say? Well, you are not allowed to do any raids.

This means that subscription players will not let you into their guild, and why should they, you would be utterly worthless. So basically their new model is going to create a population of bums floating around the galaxy? Maybe they will allow pan handling at starports for cartel coins?

if I come off as trashing free to play, players, or subscription players, I really am not trying to accomplish that. I'm just pointing out the segregation in community that this system will create.

 

Did I mention that free players have limited auction house usuge? Congratulations on being broke.(see pan handling comment above)

Limited travel options? Awesome, so maybe TOR will be the first game to have hitchhiking? ###, gas, or grass?

I usually don't argue for one system or another and usually judge game's by whether or not they are fun; However I'm seriously confused by this model, wouldn't it be better to just announce that free to play is instead a free trial in an attempt to move boxs instead of coming up with this half witted attempt? Both would rake in some needed cash, but the system they are implementing just seems horrible. Am I missing something?

Yes you are missing, free is not free.

In fact many "Free" games make more money than when they were subscription. That is why they when "Free" to begin with.

To answer your more specific questions. You will probably get limited access to the things you discribe-- unless you pay for it. If you want to have more access to PVP then you will have to pay. If you want premium classes then you will have to pay. 

A subscription is when you pay a single price and get what you pay for .

Free to play is when you get nickel and dimed by the company until you realize you spent more money on "Free" than you would have with a subscription.

But hey, Free to play is the wave of the future... Yay?

I get the difference, but this is like a "shmashmortian" of the two. I've seen a couple free to play models where money doesn't "pay to win", but instead allows you to look different, or what not. This system, is blatantly straight forward with the negative aspects.

Has this sysem, this hybrid been used before? Especially being "same server". This setup does seem to create two different class of people in the game. Thats my biggest point. The no freeby players guild recruiting is already ongoing and its not even free to play yet.

  TangentPoint

Elite Member

Joined: 2/12/12
Posts: 1101

The "Real Game" begins at character creation.

10/13/12 11:30:58 PM#7
Originally posted by Johnie-Marz
 

Yes you are missing, free is not free.

In fact many "Free" games make more money than when they were subscription. That is why they when "Free" to begin with.

To answer your more specific questions. You will probably get limited access to the things you discribe-- unless you pay for it. If you want to have more access to PVP then you will have to pay. If you want premium classes then you will have to pay. 

A subscription is when you pay a single price and get what you pay for .

Free to play is when you get nickel and dimed by the company until you realize you spent more money on "Free" than you would have with a subscription.

But hey, Free to play is the wave of the future... Yay?

That bit in orange has to be one of the best, and most to-the-point comparisons of F2P versus P2P I've ever seen.

The thing is, you have to look at it in terms of getting the same level of gameplay and content out of each, which is something many don't do.

If you're playing a F2P MMO less, or "doing without" many of the things that you'd get automatically with a subscription, then sure, you can spend much less, or even nothing in a F2P game. If you intend to play a F2P MMO at the same level, with all the same "features" and such that you'd get for a single sub fee in a P2P MMO, you're going to be paying a lot more.

Sadly, many people don't think into it that far. They see "F2P" and that's all they care about.

 

My philosophy on MMORPGs:

Leveling is what happens while you're playing the rest of the game.

Don't worry about levels. Just play.

  Theocritus

Advanced Member

Joined: 7/15/08
Posts: 3613

10/13/12 11:33:46 PM#8
     I dont see any loss....It is basically a single player game anyway, who cares about raiding and pvp in swtor?
  FelixMajor

Elite Member

Joined: 12/27/07
Posts: 520

10/13/12 11:41:41 PM#9
This is the problem when you mix corporate business with an art form of video games.  These corps are trying to maximize profit, which is not a bad goal being a business.  Though they look at it all wrong, trying to create a business model for maximum cash flow based on statistics and what works on paper.  They're morons, they will never make the money back that was spent to create this game.

Originally posted by Arskaaa
"when players learned tacticks in dungeon/raids, its bread".

  TangentPoint

Elite Member

Joined: 2/12/12
Posts: 1101

The "Real Game" begins at character creation.

10/13/12 11:42:45 PM#10
Originally posted by william0532

 

I get the difference, but this is like a "shmashmortian" of the two. I've seen a couple free to play models where money doesn't "pay to win", but instead allows you to look different, or what not. This system, is blatantly straight forward with the negative aspects.

Has this sysem, this hybrid been used before? Especially being "same server". This setup does seem to create two different class of people in the game. Thats my biggest point. The no freeby players guild recruiting is already ongoing and its not even free to play yet.

And that separation is going to result in one of three things:

1. They're going to spend far more in the cash shop to keep themselves "on par" with others who are paying subs (or paying more in the cash shop).

2. They're going to realize that they're going to get a lot more for much less with a flat sub fee, than they could maintain via F2P/Cash Shop. So they'll just go with the subscription anyway.

3. They'll see the set up, not like either option, say "screw this" and walk away.

In a way, developers are actually helping players see the flaws in a F2P/Cash Shop system. They just do such a great job with their marketing, PR and spin, while flashing the word "FREE!" in everyone's face, that many never bother to notice or analyze what's actually going on.

Should a time come where more people start to catch on (and it seems like that may well be happening already, genre-wide), I think we could well see F2P/Cash Shops go bye-bye... at least in the MMO space. I think they are more "feasible" in a casual gaming context (think: Facebook games).

MMOs are (or should be) by nature long-term experiences. They're more a hobby that you stick with, than just a game that you pick up, finish, and then put down. A good, solid MMO can potentially keep someone playing for months or even years in some cases. Trying to nickel and dime someone for every little thing in a cash shop MMO over that length of time is just not sustainable for many people. Even with a "cash shop point" system obfuscating the actual dollar amount being sunk into the shop, eventually people are going to see how much they're actually spending month to month, and realize that they haven't really been getting the better deal with cash shops at all; they've been paying more for less.

My philosophy on MMORPGs:

Leveling is what happens while you're playing the rest of the game.

Don't worry about levels. Just play.

  SQTO

Advanced Member

Joined: 11/20/11
Posts: 165

10/13/12 11:46:23 PM#11
maybe the limit on warzones will be good for world pvp.
  Sora2810

Novice Member

Joined: 7/23/08
Posts: 566

10/13/12 11:50:02 PM#12
Originally posted by SuperDonk

At least the F2P will allow you to pretend it is Kotor 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, and 8 like they said it was prior to launch. Drop in play the stories and drop back out.

 

That is if they let you complete the story quests on F2P.

Hey wait.. that's actually a great idea! F2P for the people who want a Single-player story game. Monthly sub for people who want multiplayer content... Seriously, that's not a bad model at all.

Played - M59, EQOA, EQ, EQ2, PS, SWG[Favorite], DAoC, UO, RS, MXO, CoH/CoV, TR, FFXI, FoM, WoW, Eve, Rift, SWTOR, TSW.
Playing - PS2, AoW, GW2

  Draron

Novice Member

Joined: 5/07/11
Posts: 1009

10/14/12 12:10:12 AM#13
Better than SOE's model they use with EQ1/2/Vanguard IMO. They limit item and skill tiers along with the usual lack of AH (GTN in SWTOR's case) and limits character progression.
  Cursedsei

Novice Member

Joined: 12/17/07
Posts: 1019

10/14/12 12:31:30 AM#14

You're surprised by that?

They have to recoup some of that absurd amount of cash dropped on the game somehow, and if that means twisting a players arm until they can touch the top of that same arms shoulder to get it? They'll obviously do it. It's why a lot of time was spent seemingly just on trying to find more ways to make players play 1-49 instead of actually expanding the 50 game. Keep rolling alts, grind through legacies and crap, and when you hit 50 just make another alt and stay subbed.

One could argue that hitting 50 probably isn't too hard (hitting the cap in MMOs nowadays is pretty much that way now), but more end-game would affect only those who were already playing for a while. Adding content between 1-50 would be more appealing to new players than adding in more end-game content. And in the end, that is what they wanted, more box sales and initials subs rather than a month or two more of those at the level cap.

The same can be seen in their F2P model. Except now instead of relying on an intelligently made shop, they are attempting to coerce everyone into paying subs now that a box is useless. Aion managed to go "truly" F2P it seems, and while I haven't played the game in a while, I also haven't heard of any complaints about it or Lineage 2, which went under the same banner. They could of easily left it at introducing new races through the cash shop on top of the usual cosmetic flair, and perhaps turning the Legacy system into some alternate unlock method, similar to Turbines F2P model.

Yet they didn't, because they don't trust that their game is even interesting or strong enough to support such a voluntary model. So instead they went with the "Freemium" route.

 

as an aside...

Here's a little tid-bit of some possible information on the motives for the two founders of Bioware when they left. 1 was absolutely sick of working, the negativity produced by their several recent lackluster titles had gotten to him, so he left. It's also why he is pretty much leaving the game industry in general.

The other, after Bioware was bought by EA, was more interested in just getting higher up into EA (and thus pretty much out of his own studio). When The Old Republic's failure was pinned on them by the internal EA culture, it probably hurt his chances too much to ever really get higher up, at least to him.

If the above is true, I wonder just what might of caused at least some of that fan negativity when it came to Dragon Age 2, Mass Effect 3, and The Old Republic. Also, if the above is true then it appears there was already some "segregation" going on within Bioware, at least in terms of ideals.

Doesn't change peoples outlook on EA one bit though, and neither does the things they've been doing recently.

  BrotherD

Novice Member

Joined: 5/21/08
Posts: 52

10/14/12 12:34:27 AM#15
And yet another reason not to return to SWTOR.

Currently playing: AoC, RIFT, Champions Online, DDO, LORTO, STO and Tribes: Ascend
Have Played: TSW, SWG, AO, EVE, WOW, EQ, EQ2, SW:TOR, GW,CoH, DCUO, RotMG, WAR,

  Karteli

Apprentice Member

Joined: 7/09/12
Posts: 2704

10/14/12 12:37:01 AM#16

It's shitty sure.  But it's the best EA could come up with, since the people in charge are marketers & salesmen, not gamers.

 

They don't think about what people want or would actually enjoy, they just want what makes the most money for them.

 

btw, I'd hardly call SWTOR F2P, it is a freemium style game, with nothing really "free".  F2P is just EA grabbing on to other successful games (who grabbed onto other games etc.).  I'm gonna rage if EA ever starts using "Truly F2P" for their crappy fremium BS.  Truly F2P is coined by NCSoft and means a fully free game without restrictions, with a cash shop for fluff items (Aion, LoL, etc).

Want a nice understanding of life? Try Spirit Science: "The Human History"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U8NNHmV3QPw&feature=plcp
Recognize the voice? Yep sounds like Penny Arcade's Extra Credits.

  Draron

Novice Member

Joined: 5/07/11
Posts: 1009

10/14/12 1:01:10 AM#17
Originally posted by Karteli

It's shitty sure.  But it's the best EA could come up with, since the people in charge are marketers & salesmen, not gamers.

 

They don't think about what people want or would actually enjoy, they just want what makes the most money for them.

 

btw, I'd hardly call SWTOR F2P, it is a freemium style game, with nothing really "free".  F2P is just EA grabbing on to other successful games (who grabbed onto other games etc.).  I'm gonna rage if EA ever starts using "Truly F2P" for their crappy fremium BS.  Truly F2P is coined by NCSoft and means a fully free game without restrictions, with a cash shop for fluff items (Aion, LoL, etc).

Yea, most games that go from P2P to "F2P" are better off being called freemium rather than actual F2P like, for example, MapleStory and Perfect World are.

  william0532

Novice Member

Joined: 7/16/11
Posts: 240

 
OP  10/14/12 1:36:26 AM#18
Originally posted by Draron
Better than SOE's model they use with EQ1/2/Vanguard IMO. They limit item and skill tiers along with the usual lack of AH (GTN in SWTOR's case) and limits character progression.

Actually it seems that it's pretty much the same. Since the expansion comes with level increases and free players can only progress to level 50 they will not have the skills and health that the other players do.

 

I get EVE's f2p model, it really doesn't impact anything. Or alot of the other f2p models, but this sysem is probably the worst I've ever heard of.

 

I guess a business is a business, but I don't see how this will do anything other than move some boxes off the shelve(which they need to do, they still have Collectors Editions for sell lol), but I don't see this helping with population. Pump up numbers for a couple of months, than fall back down to current or lower numbers.

Maybe it's just me, and again, I'm not dogging f2p, but this model seems counter productive in the long run. I see the short term goal, but long term, it would seem a bust.

  Robokapp

Elite Member

Joined: 11/15/09
Posts: 4521

The only luck I had today was to have you as my opponent.

10/14/12 1:43:31 AM#19
I'll wait until it's free to play...my way.

  Draron

Novice Member

Joined: 5/07/11
Posts: 1009

10/14/12 1:54:55 AM#20
Originally posted by william0532
Originally posted by Draron
Better than SOE's model they use with EQ1/2/Vanguard IMO. They limit item and skill tiers along with the usual lack of AH (GTN in SWTOR's case) and limits character progression.

Actually it seems that it's pretty much the same. Since the expansion comes with level increases and free players can only progress to level 50 they will not have the skills and health that the other players do.

From what I know of SWTOR's F2P (at least what's been shown so far) it doesn't limit you from purple or orange items or high level skill ranks like EQ2 and such does. We're not sure yet if SWTOR is going to include the expansion storyline content with F2P or not, as an expansion is a good half year or so away at the earliest.

The biggest thing SWTOR limits is no operations, though EQ2 locks players out of the most recent expansion as well meaning the highest tier raids.

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