Originally posted by OG_Zorvan

Originally posted by PyrateLV

The one thing that keeps nagging at me about TESO, other than the fact that its nothing more than DAoC2 + Standard Themepark stuff in an Elder Scrolls skin, is the whole "Hero Engine..oh wait...Not Hero Engine" issue.

 

When Zenimax first announced the game, they made a point of mentioning the Hero Engine. Then, only after they got lambasted by the community about it, did they retract/ammend that statement to say that they were ONLY using the HE as a "Whiteboard" and they were creating their own "In-House" engine for the actual game.

Ok...so why even mention the HE in the first place? Why not just state from the beginning that are you creating your own engine for the game?

Something about that still just doesnt sit right

It really is a shame EAware tarnished the HeroEngine brand so badly. Especially since SWToR's version of HEroEngine is mostly cobbled together scraps of code and only HeroEngine in name.

HeroEngine itself is a damn fine game engine.

In fact, if Zenimax had instead thrown EAware under the bus and pointed out for those who still don't know that the HeroEngine SWToR uses wasn't even a finished alpha when they licensed it ( and the HeroEngine creator even warned them the engine was nowhere ready but EAware said "It's okay, we'll fix it our way anyway." ), it would have looked a lot better for Zenimax than trying to dodge the HE issue.

Of course, that still wouldn't change the fact Zenimax is trying their hardest to make TES look like SWToR art-wise.

Except for the fact that ESO started development in 2007, so they would have also been using an early alpha of the engine.

Originally posted by Entinerint

Originally posted by OG_Zorvan

Originally posted by PyrateLV

The one thing that keeps nagging at me about TESO, other than the fact that its nothing more than DAoC2 + Standard Themepark stuff in an Elder Scrolls skin, is the whole "Hero Engine..oh wait...Not Hero Engine" issue.

 

When Zenimax first announced the game, they made a point of mentioning the Hero Engine. Then, only after they got lambasted by the community about it, did they retract/ammend that statement to say that they were ONLY using the HE as a "Whiteboard" and they were creating their own "In-House" engine for the actual game.

Ok...so why even mention the HE in the first place? Why not just state from the beginning that are you creating your own engine for the game?

Something about that still just doesnt sit right

It really is a shame EAware tarnished the HeroEngine brand so badly. Especially since SWToR's version of HEroEngine is mostly cobbled together scraps of code and only HeroEngine in name.

HeroEngine itself is a damn fine game engine.

In fact, if Zenimax had instead thrown EAware under the bus and pointed out for those who still don't know that the HeroEngine SWToR uses wasn't even a finished alpha when they licensed it ( and the HeroEngine creator even warned them the engine was nowhere ready but EAware said "It's okay, we'll fix it our way anyway." ), it would have looked a lot better for Zenimax than trying to dodge the HE issue.

Of course, that still wouldn't change the fact Zenimax is trying their hardest to make TES look like SWToR art-wise.

Except for the fact that ESO started development in 2007, so they would have also been using an early alpha of the engine.

Except the difference would be this: EAware shut out the Heroengine devs, the heroEngine devs had no input and designed no code or updates for EAware's version for years before release. When the HeroEngine devs made improvements and new engine versions/updates/fixes, none of those were included into SWToR's version. Everything from the point of license was EAware's coding and cobbling together. It stopped being the HeroEngine in anything other than very basic code and name.

So, if Zenimax has been working in tandem with the HeroEngine devs the whole time ( like an intelligent company would ) then the TESO version of HeroEngine would be up-to-date with updates and fixes provided by the HeroEngine devs.

Big difference.

Originally posted by OG_Zorvan

Originally posted by Entinerint

Originally posted by OG_Zorvan

Originally posted by PyrateLV

The one thing that keeps nagging at me about TESO, other than the fact that its nothing more than DAoC2 + Standard Themepark stuff in an Elder Scrolls skin, is the whole "Hero Engine..oh wait...Not Hero Engine" issue.

 

When Zenimax first announced the game, they made a point of mentioning the Hero Engine. Then, only after they got lambasted by the community about it, did they retract/ammend that statement to say that they were ONLY using the HE as a "Whiteboard" and they were creating their own "In-House" engine for the actual game.

Ok...so why even mention the HE in the first place? Why not just state from the beginning that are you creating your own engine for the game?

Something about that still just doesnt sit right

It really is a shame EAware tarnished the HeroEngine brand so badly. Especially since SWToR's version of HEroEngine is mostly cobbled together scraps of code and only HeroEngine in name.

HeroEngine itself is a damn fine game engine.

In fact, if Zenimax had instead thrown EAware under the bus and pointed out for those who still don't know that the HeroEngine SWToR uses wasn't even a finished alpha when they licensed it ( and the HeroEngine creator even warned them the engine was nowhere ready but EAware said "It's okay, we'll fix it our way anyway." ), it would have looked a lot better for Zenimax than trying to dodge the HE issue.

Of course, that still wouldn't change the fact Zenimax is trying their hardest to make TES look like SWToR art-wise.

Except for the fact that ESO started development in 2007, so they would have also been using an early alpha of the engine.

Except the difference would be this: EAware shut out the Heroengine devs, the heroEngine devs had no input and designed no code or updates for EAware's version for years before release.

So, if Zenimax has been working in tandem with the HeroEngine devs the whole time ( like an intelligent company would ) then the TESO version of HeroEngine would be up-to-date with updates and fixes provided by the HeroEngine devs.

Big difference.

Good point, this is hopefully the case.

Regardless, an engine is only as good as the team developing for it.  A bad team can make Cryengine look like crap and a good team can make something amazing with Ogre.

With sentiments like "housing is too hard" and "real-time combat is impossible," I have little faith in the bloated, over-funded and visionless team.

Originally posted by Zylaxx

Originally posted by jiveturkey12

Elder Scrolls Online's core player base has been crippled from day one of the games annoucement. Here are my reasonings,

1. Hero Engine Debacle

When the game was first announced, one of the key features toted was the use of the same engine as Star Wars: The Old Republic, the very controversial "Hero Engine". As soon as the Game-Informer Article hit the internet forum posts blasting the use of the engine shot up right here on MMORPG.com; along with articles confirming this fan outry on Massivly and other major MMO publications. 

Here is where I give the ESO Devs some credit, as they quickly dispelled the previously announced feature as nothing more than a simple "Whiteboard" which they used to make the "Real Engine". But suspicions had already begun in the community since the original announcement, even diehard Elder Scrolls fans reamined wary, with features like "Voice-Overs" and All-Age Appropriate Graphics still confirmed, things started to seem too similar to other projects from the Hero Engine.

2. Game-Informer speaks Candidly about lack of Core Elder Scrolls Series Features

Along with the Game-Informer article also came a further hit to not only Hardcore Elder Scrolls fans, but also to the general fans of megahit "Skyrim"; the ES series most accesible link to the gaming community. Features like Player-Housing, Were-wolves, First-Person combat, wernt making the transition to the Elder Scrolls MMO "Because of the constraints inherent to an online game" according to the games developers, but Zenimax Online assued the fans they would be "including everything that makes sense."

3. Three-Factions, Race-Locked, No Imperials

So it wasnt long after Zenimax Promised to "Include Everything that makes sense", that they gave us information on the games core mechanics, which included Three Factions at war against each other. DAOC fans quickly flocked to the games forums and other sites giving the game its most solid boost of concurrent fans since the previous announcments. 

But even with the small impact the DAOC community gave to ESO, it was completely overshadowed by the complete abandonment of many Core Elder Scrolls fans, who saw the three race locked factions as a complete deviation from the games well standing lore, as well as a limit on player interaction between all races which had never been seen in a full fledged ES game before. 

The lack of a core ES Race (Imperials) from the mix, placing them instead as a more antagonistic NPC roll, also came across as a strange decision as they had always been a default choice for many first time players of the game not familiar with the ES lore. (This is because of the overtly "European-American" look Imperials have)

In Conclusion - A Mature Audience detracted by an Adolescent game

So now what we are left with is a completely divided community, ESO's target audience has been consistently shown to be All-Age Appropriate, even though the core features of the Elder Scrolls Franchise have always been more adult-themed/ oriented. The advent of DAOC fans to the game is a fair audience but incomparable numbers wise to the outflux of core Elder Scrolls fans, and Adult Gamers who made up the games Core Audience.

Does anyone feel that ESO can recover from such poor early development/PR choices?

Considering hte core Audience for TES games are console gamers and not MMO players is this such a bad thing?  The vast majority of TES games sales is, and always will be from consoles and the modding community.  TESO attempts to give MMO gamers a game remeniscent of older style MMO's within a framework of lore and game design elements of TES.  Along the way there will alot of players from both the console and the MMO.  I can definitly state that if TESO was a port of Skyrim into a MMO, aint no way in hell would I play it.  Mainly because I hate the combat in TES but primarily a true port to MMO would HAVE to include open conflict, FFA style ganking style PvP.  Aint no way will I ever play any style of non consentual PvP.

First off, your completely mislead with this statement. There is no modding community on the xbox, the only modding community for TES has always been on the PC ONLY. Therfore you just stated that the vast majority of game sales are from consoles but also PC sales. I believe that means there is a contradiction in your own statements. 

And I think its a little obvious that PC sales of Skyrim/Oblivion/Morrowing were all very high. Are you counting Steam sales of Elder Scrolls games as well? Yes they were not the numbers of the console but thats simply because of accesibility, not because of the type of gamer. So im sorry my friend but you are wrong on all counts here. 

Are you telling me that you believe Console gamers would be more interested in a Thrid-person Themepark MMO rather than a Mature First Person MMO?? 

Originally posted by jiveturkey12

Originally posted by Zylaxx

Originally posted by jiveturkey12

Elder Scrolls Online's core player base has been crippled from day one of the games annoucement. Here are my reasonings,

1. Hero Engine Debacle

When the game was first announced, one of the key features toted was the use of the same engine as Star Wars: The Old Republic, the very controversial "Hero Engine". As soon as the Game-Informer Article hit the internet forum posts blasting the use of the engine shot up right here on MMORPG.com; along with articles confirming this fan outry on Massivly and other major MMO publications. 

Here is where I give the ESO Devs some credit, as they quickly dispelled the previously announced feature as nothing more than a simple "Whiteboard" which they used to make the "Real Engine". But suspicions had already begun in the community since the original announcement, even diehard Elder Scrolls fans reamined wary, with features like "Voice-Overs" and All-Age Appropriate Graphics still confirmed, things started to seem too similar to other projects from the Hero Engine.

2. Game-Informer speaks Candidly about lack of Core Elder Scrolls Series Features

Along with the Game-Informer article also came a further hit to not only Hardcore Elder Scrolls fans, but also to the general fans of megahit "Skyrim"; the ES series most accesible link to the gaming community. Features like Player-Housing, Were-wolves, First-Person combat, wernt making the transition to the Elder Scrolls MMO "Because of the constraints inherent to an online game" according to the games developers, but Zenimax Online assued the fans they would be "including everything that makes sense."

3. Three-Factions, Race-Locked, No Imperials

So it wasnt long after Zenimax Promised to "Include Everything that makes sense", that they gave us information on the games core mechanics, which included Three Factions at war against each other. DAOC fans quickly flocked to the games forums and other sites giving the game its most solid boost of concurrent fans since the previous announcments. 

But even with the small impact the DAOC community gave to ESO, it was completely overshadowed by the complete abandonment of many Core Elder Scrolls fans, who saw the three race locked factions as a complete deviation from the games well standing lore, as well as a limit on player interaction between all races which had never been seen in a full fledged ES game before. 

The lack of a core ES Race (Imperials) from the mix, placing them instead as a more antagonistic NPC roll, also came across as a strange decision as they had always been a default choice for many first time players of the game not familiar with the ES lore. (This is because of the overtly "European-American" look Imperials have)

In Conclusion - A Mature Audience detracted by an Adolescent game

So now what we are left with is a completely divided community, ESO's target audience has been consistently shown to be All-Age Appropriate, even though the core features of the Elder Scrolls Franchise have always been more adult-themed/ oriented. The advent of DAOC fans to the game is a fair audience but incomparable numbers wise to the outflux of core Elder Scrolls fans, and Adult Gamers who made up the games Core Audience.

Does anyone feel that ESO can recover from such poor early development/PR choices?

Considering hte core Audience for TES games are console gamers and not MMO players is this such a bad thing?  The vast majority of TES games sales is, and always will be from consoles and the modding community.  TESO attempts to give MMO gamers a game remeniscent of older style MMO's within a framework of lore and game design elements of TES.  Along the way there will alot of players from both the console and the MMO.  I can definitly state that if TESO was a port of Skyrim into a MMO, aint no way in hell would I play it.  Mainly because I hate the combat in TES but primarily a true port to MMO would HAVE to include open conflict, FFA style ganking style PvP.  Aint no way will I ever play any style of non consentual PvP.

First off, your completely mislead with this statement. There is no modding community on the xbox, the only modding community for TES has always been on the PC ONLY. Therfore you just stated that the vast majority of game sales are from consoles but also PC sales. I believe that means there is a contradiction in your own statements. 

And I think its a little obvious that PC sales of Skyrim/Oblivion/Morrowing were all very high. Are you counting Steam sales of Elder Scrolls games as well? Yes they were not the numbers of the console but thats simply because of accesibility, not because of the type of gamer. So im sorry my friend but you are wrong on all counts here. 

Are you telling me that you believe Console gamers would be more interested in a Thrid-person Themepark MMO rather than a Mature First Person MMO?? 

Reading comprehension much?  I said the 2 biggest sources of TES community is Consoles and Modders.  Note the inclusion of the word "And", which is typical used in the english language to convey: (used to connect grammatically coordinate words, phrases, or clauses) along or together with; as well as; in addition to; besides; also; moreover:"

In other words it means to differentiate the 2 groups anot to imply them being the same group: If I had said The Modding Console community then you would be correct but since I split the 2 groups with the word "and" it is implcitly meant to distinguish 2 groups of gamers.

No my post was to show that the vast majority of TES fans belong to 2 distiinct groups, and (theres that word again which means I am about to seperate 2 different things so follow along here) to show that in order to make a successful MMO then you MUST appeal to the MMO crowd.  Zenimax is hoping to get enough of those 2 crowds (well mainly the console crowd) to hopefully come over to the PC market while attempting to appeal to the MMO vets.  They could of done this a different way, but then again market analysis shows that WoW clones dont do well and the director is a former Mythic employee (of DAoC fame) it stands to reason the decision from the start of development was to capture some of the magic of RvR DAoC crowd.  Common sense dictates the reasoning behind this concept and as much as you may not like it or dont agree with it, it is a valid and totally legitimate endeavor.  Primarily due to already knowing that the MMO version will not appeal to the console gamer and it isnt feasible to make a WoW clone so what else is left.

Originally posted by Zylaxx

Originally posted by jiveturkey12

Originally posted by Zylaxx

Originally posted by jiveturkey12

Elder Scrolls Online's core player base has been crippled from day one of the games annoucement. Here are my reasonings,

1. Hero Engine Debacle

When the game was first announced, one of the key features toted was the use of the same engine as Star Wars: The Old Republic, the very controversial "Hero Engine". As soon as the Game-Informer Article hit the internet forum posts blasting the use of the engine shot up right here on MMORPG.com; along with articles confirming this fan outry on Massivly and other major MMO publications. 

Here is where I give the ESO Devs some credit, as they quickly dispelled the previously announced feature as nothing more than a simple "Whiteboard" which they used to make the "Real Engine". But suspicions had already begun in the community since the original announcement, even diehard Elder Scrolls fans reamined wary, with features like "Voice-Overs" and All-Age Appropriate Graphics still confirmed, things started to seem too similar to other projects from the Hero Engine.

2. Game-Informer speaks Candidly about lack of Core Elder Scrolls Series Features

Along with the Game-Informer article also came a further hit to not only Hardcore Elder Scrolls fans, but also to the general fans of megahit "Skyrim"; the ES series most accesible link to the gaming community. Features like Player-Housing, Were-wolves, First-Person combat, wernt making the transition to the Elder Scrolls MMO "Because of the constraints inherent to an online game" according to the games developers, but Zenimax Online assued the fans they would be "including everything that makes sense."

3. Three-Factions, Race-Locked, No Imperials

So it wasnt long after Zenimax Promised to "Include Everything that makes sense", that they gave us information on the games core mechanics, which included Three Factions at war against each other. DAOC fans quickly flocked to the games forums and other sites giving the game its most solid boost of concurrent fans since the previous announcments. 

But even with the small impact the DAOC community gave to ESO, it was completely overshadowed by the complete abandonment of many Core Elder Scrolls fans, who saw the three race locked factions as a complete deviation from the games well standing lore, as well as a limit on player interaction between all races which had never been seen in a full fledged ES game before. 

The lack of a core ES Race (Imperials) from the mix, placing them instead as a more antagonistic NPC roll, also came across as a strange decision as they had always been a default choice for many first time players of the game not familiar with the ES lore. (This is because of the overtly "European-American" look Imperials have)

In Conclusion - A Mature Audience detracted by an Adolescent game

So now what we are left with is a completely divided community, ESO's target audience has been consistently shown to be All-Age Appropriate, even though the core features of the Elder Scrolls Franchise have always been more adult-themed/ oriented. The advent of DAOC fans to the game is a fair audience but incomparable numbers wise to the outflux of core Elder Scrolls fans, and Adult Gamers who made up the games Core Audience.

Does anyone feel that ESO can recover from such poor early development/PR choices?

Considering hte core Audience for TES games are console gamers and not MMO players is this such a bad thing?  The vast majority of TES games sales is, and always will be from consoles and the modding community.  TESO attempts to give MMO gamers a game remeniscent of older style MMO's within a framework of lore and game design elements of TES.  Along the way there will alot of players from both the console and the MMO.  I can definitly state that if TESO was a port of Skyrim into a MMO, aint no way in hell would I play it.  Mainly because I hate the combat in TES but primarily a true port to MMO would HAVE to include open conflict, FFA style ganking style PvP.  Aint no way will I ever play any style of non consentual PvP.

First off, your completely mislead with this statement. There is no modding community on the xbox, the only modding community for TES has always been on the PC ONLY. Therfore you just stated that the vast majority of game sales are from consoles but also PC sales. I believe that means there is a contradiction in your own statements. 

And I think its a little obvious that PC sales of Skyrim/Oblivion/Morrowing were all very high. Are you counting Steam sales of Elder Scrolls games as well? Yes they were not the numbers of the console but thats simply because of accesibility, not because of the type of gamer. So im sorry my friend but you are wrong on all counts here. 

Are you telling me that you believe Console gamers would be more interested in a Thrid-person Themepark MMO rather than a Mature First Person MMO?? 

Reading comprehension much?  I said the 2 biggest sources of TES community is Consoles and Modders.  Note the inclusion of the word "And", which is typical used in the english language to convey: (used to connect grammatically coordinate words, phrases, or clauses) along or together with; as well as; in addition to; besides; also; moreover:"

 

In other words it means to differentiate the 2 groups anot to imply them being the same group: If I had said The Modding Console community then you would be correct but since I split the 2 groups with the word "and" it is implcitly meant to distinguish 2 groups of gamers.

 

No my post was to show that the vast majority of TES fans belong to 2 distiinct groups, and (theres that word again which means I am about to seperate 2 different things so follow along here) to show that in order to make a successful MMO then you MUST appeal to the MMO crowd.  Zenimax is hoping to get enough of those 2 crowds (well mainly the console crowd) to hopefully come over to the PC market while attempting to appeal to the MMO vets.  They could of done this a different way, but then again market analysis shows that WoW clones dont do well and the director is a former Mythic employee (of DAoC fame) it stands to reason the decision from the start of development was to capture some of the magic of RvR DAoC crowd.  Common sense dictates the reasoning behind this concept and as much as you may not like it or dont agree with it, it is a valid and totally legitimate endeavor.  Primarily due to already knowing that the MMO version will not appeal to the console gamer and it isnt feasible to make a WoW clone so what else is left.

The numbers deceive you.

2.5 million Skyrim sales on PC to date.

250,000 DOAC players at its peak.

Even if every single last one of them (including myself) return, that is 10% of the potential userbase if they'd catered to the TES PC users.

Not all 2.5 million of those Skyrim users are modders, sorry to burst your bubble.

Even at the time of ESO's inception, Oblivion outsold DAOC's peak numbers on PC by over double.

Originally posted by Entinerint

Originally posted by Zylaxx

Originally posted by jiveturkey12

Originally posted by Zylaxx

Originally posted by jiveturkey12

Elder Scrolls Online's core player base has been crippled from day one of the games annoucement. Here are my reasonings,

1. Hero Engine Debacle

When the game was first announced, one of the key features toted was the use of the same engine as Star Wars: The Old Republic, the very controversial "Hero Engine". As soon as the Game-Informer Article hit the internet forum posts blasting the use of the engine shot up right here on MMORPG.com; along with articles confirming this fan outry on Massivly and other major MMO publications. 

Here is where I give the ESO Devs some credit, as they quickly dispelled the previously announced feature as nothing more than a simple "Whiteboard" which they used to make the "Real Engine". But suspicions had already begun in the community since the original announcement, even diehard Elder Scrolls fans reamined wary, with features like "Voice-Overs" and All-Age Appropriate Graphics still confirmed, things started to seem too similar to other projects from the Hero Engine.

2. Game-Informer speaks Candidly about lack of Core Elder Scrolls Series Features

Along with the Game-Informer article also came a further hit to not only Hardcore Elder Scrolls fans, but also to the general fans of megahit "Skyrim"; the ES series most accesible link to the gaming community. Features like Player-Housing, Were-wolves, First-Person combat, wernt making the transition to the Elder Scrolls MMO "Because of the constraints inherent to an online game" according to the games developers, but Zenimax Online assued the fans they would be "including everything that makes sense."

3. Three-Factions, Race-Locked, No Imperials

So it wasnt long after Zenimax Promised to "Include Everything that makes sense", that they gave us information on the games core mechanics, which included Three Factions at war against each other. DAOC fans quickly flocked to the games forums and other sites giving the game its most solid boost of concurrent fans since the previous announcments. 

But even with the small impact the DAOC community gave to ESO, it was completely overshadowed by the complete abandonment of many Core Elder Scrolls fans, who saw the three race locked factions as a complete deviation from the games well standing lore, as well as a limit on player interaction between all races which had never been seen in a full fledged ES game before. 

The lack of a core ES Race (Imperials) from the mix, placing them instead as a more antagonistic NPC roll, also came across as a strange decision as they had always been a default choice for many first time players of the game not familiar with the ES lore. (This is because of the overtly "European-American" look Imperials have)

In Conclusion - A Mature Audience detracted by an Adolescent game

So now what we are left with is a completely divided community, ESO's target audience has been consistently shown to be All-Age Appropriate, even though the core features of the Elder Scrolls Franchise have always been more adult-themed/ oriented. The advent of DAOC fans to the game is a fair audience but incomparable numbers wise to the outflux of core Elder Scrolls fans, and Adult Gamers who made up the games Core Audience.

Does anyone feel that ESO can recover from such poor early development/PR choices?

Considering hte core Audience for TES games are console gamers and not MMO players is this such a bad thing?  The vast majority of TES games sales is, and always will be from consoles and the modding community.  TESO attempts to give MMO gamers a game remeniscent of older style MMO's within a framework of lore and game design elements of TES.  Along the way there will alot of players from both the console and the MMO.  I can definitly state that if TESO was a port of Skyrim into a MMO, aint no way in hell would I play it.  Mainly because I hate the combat in TES but primarily a true port to MMO would HAVE to include open conflict, FFA style ganking style PvP.  Aint no way will I ever play any style of non consentual PvP.

First off, your completely mislead with this statement. There is no modding community on the xbox, the only modding community for TES has always been on the PC ONLY. Therfore you just stated that the vast majority of game sales are from consoles but also PC sales. I believe that means there is a contradiction in your own statements. 

And I think its a little obvious that PC sales of Skyrim/Oblivion/Morrowing were all very high. Are you counting Steam sales of Elder Scrolls games as well? Yes they were not the numbers of the console but thats simply because of accesibility, not because of the type of gamer. So im sorry my friend but you are wrong on all counts here. 

Are you telling me that you believe Console gamers would be more interested in a Thrid-person Themepark MMO rather than a Mature First Person MMO?? 

Reading comprehension much?  I said the 2 biggest sources of TES community is Consoles and Modders.  Note the inclusion of the word "And", which is typical used in the english language to convey: (used to connect grammatically coordinate words, phrases, or clauses) along or together with; as well as; in addition to; besides; also; moreover:"

 

In other words it means to differentiate the 2 groups anot to imply them being the same group: If I had said The Modding Console community then you would be correct but since I split the 2 groups with the word "and" it is implcitly meant to distinguish 2 groups of gamers.

 

No my post was to show that the vast majority of TES fans belong to 2 distiinct groups, and (theres that word again which means I am about to seperate 2 different things so follow along here) to show that in order to make a successful MMO then you MUST appeal to the MMO crowd.  Zenimax is hoping to get enough of those 2 crowds (well mainly the console crowd) to hopefully come over to the PC market while attempting to appeal to the MMO vets.  They could of done this a different way, but then again market analysis shows that WoW clones dont do well and the director is a former Mythic employee (of DAoC fame) it stands to reason the decision from the start of development was to capture some of the magic of RvR DAoC crowd.  Common sense dictates the reasoning behind this concept and as much as you may not like it or dont agree with it, it is a valid and totally legitimate endeavor.  Primarily due to already knowing that the MMO version will not appeal to the console gamer and it isnt feasible to make a WoW clone so what else is left.

The numbers deceive you.

2.5 million Skyrim sales on PC to date.

250,000 DOAC players at its peak.

Even if every single last one of them (including myself) return, that is 10% of the potential userbase if they'd catered to the TES PC users.

Not all 2.5 million of those Skyrim users are modders, sorry to burst your bubble.

7.1 million for consoles and 1.7 million for PC, so again why wouldnt they create the MMO version for the PC crowd (i.e. MMO)

DAoC also came out during the pre-WoW era and 250k at that time was #1 or #2 for subscribers.  Any future statistics must include a Largely and exponentialy greater playerbase of the MMO market.

Originally posted by Zylaxx

Originally posted by Entinerint

Originally posted by Zylaxx

Originally posted by jiveturkey12

Originally posted by Zylaxx

Originally posted by jiveturkey12

Elder Scrolls Online's core player base has been crippled from day one of the games annoucement. Here are my reasonings,

1. Hero Engine Debacle

When the game was first announced, one of the key features toted was the use of the same engine as Star Wars: The Old Republic, the very controversial "Hero Engine". As soon as the Game-Informer Article hit the internet forum posts blasting the use of the engine shot up right here on MMORPG.com; along with articles confirming this fan outry on Massivly and other major MMO publications. 

Here is where I give the ESO Devs some credit, as they quickly dispelled the previously announced feature as nothing more than a simple "Whiteboard" which they used to make the "Real Engine". But suspicions had already begun in the community since the original announcement, even diehard Elder Scrolls fans reamined wary, with features like "Voice-Overs" and All-Age Appropriate Graphics still confirmed, things started to seem too similar to other projects from the Hero Engine.

2. Game-Informer speaks Candidly about lack of Core Elder Scrolls Series Features

Along with the Game-Informer article also came a further hit to not only Hardcore Elder Scrolls fans, but also to the general fans of megahit "Skyrim"; the ES series most accesible link to the gaming community. Features like Player-Housing, Were-wolves, First-Person combat, wernt making the transition to the Elder Scrolls MMO "Because of the constraints inherent to an online game" according to the games developers, but Zenimax Online assued the fans they would be "including everything that makes sense."

3. Three-Factions, Race-Locked, No Imperials

So it wasnt long after Zenimax Promised to "Include Everything that makes sense", that they gave us information on the games core mechanics, which included Three Factions at war against each other. DAOC fans quickly flocked to the games forums and other sites giving the game its most solid boost of concurrent fans since the previous announcments. 

But even with the small impact the DAOC community gave to ESO, it was completely overshadowed by the complete abandonment of many Core Elder Scrolls fans, who saw the three race locked factions as a complete deviation from the games well standing lore, as well as a limit on player interaction between all races which had never been seen in a full fledged ES game before. 

The lack of a core ES Race (Imperials) from the mix, placing them instead as a more antagonistic NPC roll, also came across as a strange decision as they had always been a default choice for many first time players of the game not familiar with the ES lore. (This is because of the overtly "European-American" look Imperials have)

In Conclusion - A Mature Audience detracted by an Adolescent game

So now what we are left with is a completely divided community, ESO's target audience has been consistently shown to be All-Age Appropriate, even though the core features of the Elder Scrolls Franchise have always been more adult-themed/ oriented. The advent of DAOC fans to the game is a fair audience but incomparable numbers wise to the outflux of core Elder Scrolls fans, and Adult Gamers who made up the games Core Audience.

Does anyone feel that ESO can recover from such poor early development/PR choices?

Considering hte core Audience for TES games are console gamers and not MMO players is this such a bad thing?  The vast majority of TES games sales is, and always will be from consoles and the modding community.  TESO attempts to give MMO gamers a game remeniscent of older style MMO's within a framework of lore and game design elements of TES.  Along the way there will alot of players from both the console and the MMO.  I can definitly state that if TESO was a port of Skyrim into a MMO, aint no way in hell would I play it.  Mainly because I hate the combat in TES but primarily a true port to MMO would HAVE to include open conflict, FFA style ganking style PvP.  Aint no way will I ever play any style of non consentual PvP.

First off, your completely mislead with this statement. There is no modding community on the xbox, the only modding community for TES has always been on the PC ONLY. Therfore you just stated that the vast majority of game sales are from consoles but also PC sales. I believe that means there is a contradiction in your own statements. 

And I think its a little obvious that PC sales of Skyrim/Oblivion/Morrowing were all very high. Are you counting Steam sales of Elder Scrolls games as well? Yes they were not the numbers of the console but thats simply because of accesibility, not because of the type of gamer. So im sorry my friend but you are wrong on all counts here. 

Are you telling me that you believe Console gamers would be more interested in a Thrid-person Themepark MMO rather than a Mature First Person MMO?? 

Reading comprehension much?  I said the 2 biggest sources of TES community is Consoles and Modders.  Note the inclusion of the word "And", which is typical used in the english language to convey: (used to connect grammatically coordinate words, phrases, or clauses) along or together with; as well as; in addition to; besides; also; moreover:"

 

In other words it means to differentiate the 2 groups anot to imply them being the same group: If I had said The Modding Console community then you would be correct but since I split the 2 groups with the word "and" it is implcitly meant to distinguish 2 groups of gamers.

 

No my post was to show that the vast majority of TES fans belong to 2 distiinct groups, and (theres that word again which means I am about to seperate 2 different things so follow along here) to show that in order to make a successful MMO then you MUST appeal to the MMO crowd.  Zenimax is hoping to get enough of those 2 crowds (well mainly the console crowd) to hopefully come over to the PC market while attempting to appeal to the MMO vets.  They could of done this a different way, but then again market analysis shows that WoW clones dont do well and the director is a former Mythic employee (of DAoC fame) it stands to reason the decision from the start of development was to capture some of the magic of RvR DAoC crowd.  Common sense dictates the reasoning behind this concept and as much as you may not like it or dont agree with it, it is a valid and totally legitimate endeavor.  Primarily due to already knowing that the MMO version will not appeal to the console gamer and it isnt feasible to make a WoW clone so what else is left.

The numbers deceive you.

2.5 million Skyrim sales on PC to date.

250,000 DOAC players at its peak.

Even if every single last one of them (including myself) return, that is 10% of the potential userbase if they'd catered to the TES PC users.

Not all 2.5 million of those Skyrim users are modders, sorry to burst your bubble.

7.1 million for consoles and 1.7 million for PC, so again why wouldnt they create the MMO version for the PC crowd (i.e. MMO)

 

DAoC also came out during the pre-WoW era and 250k at that time was #1 or #2 for subscribers.  Any future statistics must include a Largely and exponentialy greater playerbase of the MMO market.

No, 2.45 million (to be exact), not 1.7. 

Oh ok, we'll just throw the numbers out the window and make baseless assumptions based merely on prejudice since the numbers suddenly aren't working in your favor. 

You must realize that, the only people hungering for DAOC's RVR to return, the userbase you are counting on to save your precious TESO, are those who played DAOC and enjoyed it.  If 250,000 is your sample base, then you must account for those who didn't enjoy it enough to be waiting for another game to utilize the RvR system for the next 10 years.

At best, most generous estimate, I give you 10%, 25,000 people.

Let's say they charge 60$ at retail and 15$/mo to those 25,000 people.

In order to break even on their 300 million dollar budget, they will need appoximately 900 months to do so.  That's 75 years.

Good luck with that.

PS: even with all 250,000, 7.5 years to break even.  Not a good timeframe.

Originally posted by Entinerint

Originally posted by ShakyMo
1 its using a heavily modified version of the skyrim engine.

Tes core audience is CONSOLE GAMERS

LOL no it is not using a heavily modified version of the Skyrim engine, NOWHERE does it say that.  They built their own engine from scratch after the Hero engine was used as a prototyping system.

Of the 11 million Skyrim sales to date, approximately 2.5 million of those were on the PC.  That's more users than any MMO has ever launched with.  SWTOR came close at 2.1 million.

Also, the move to add Mac support will allow many console gamers, who might have a Mac instead of a PC, to connect as well.

There is no solid dividing line between PC and console gamers, I have a PC, a 360 and a PS3.  My girlfriend has a Wii so that completes the console trifecta in our household.  PC is my main gaming platform, but I have the other consoles for exclusives I might want to try.  There is a lot of cross-pollination and many people who bought Skyrim on the 360 or PS3 might have had a computer that could run it, but didn't bother because they prefer the controller, the couch and/or the big-screen tv.

Originally posted by Zylaxx
I could care less what TES fans think or believe.  As a fan of RvR content, and open world PvE freedom of exploration style content I coudlnt be happier.  IMO they have the best of both worlds in TES and DAoC while culling the stuff that sucked.  Like DAoC's grind centric camp spawning PvE and TES FPS combat and boring and archaic combat.

As I said before, this is not a core userbase, this is roughly 500 people who will come to this game just for the RvR.  How many people still play DAOC?  If it was that amazing, trumping all other issues, it would have kept that audience, but it's not, it's actually rather boring after about a month, becuase there's nothing dynamic, it is the same boring game of tug-of-war over and over.

The OP's assessment is fair, their core userbase is/was TES fans and they utterly squandered it.  What do they have left: 250,000 or so MMO nomads who will go back to WoW once they've reached max level and 500-1000 hardcore RvR nutjobs who hang out in Cyrodiil the whole time.

Hope and wishful thinking doesnt mean nothing whne talking of statistics.  Any and every poll about DAoC has always claimed it to be one of the greatest MMO's in the history of the genre and any poll taken today will show alot of old school vets want a rebirth of DAoC.  What better way then with a reconizable IP.  Where did you come up with this scientific number of 500 [eople anyway?  You do realize that MMORPG.com is not the only MMO forum right?  There are potentially millions of gamers that want something like this.  I also pulled that number out of my ass but unlike you, I have history, an d countless forums posts to back it up.

Originally posted by Zylaxx

Originally posted by Entinerint

Originally posted by ShakyMo
1 its using a heavily modified version of the skyrim engine.

Tes core audience is CONSOLE GAMERS

LOL no it is not using a heavily modified version of the Skyrim engine, NOWHERE does it say that.  They built their own engine from scratch after the Hero engine was used as a prototyping system.

Of the 11 million Skyrim sales to date, approximately 2.5 million of those were on the PC.  That's more users than any MMO has ever launched with.  SWTOR came close at 2.1 million.

Also, the move to add Mac support will allow many console gamers, who might have a Mac instead of a PC, to connect as well.

There is no solid dividing line between PC and console gamers, I have a PC, a 360 and a PS3.  My girlfriend has a Wii so that completes the console trifecta in our household.  PC is my main gaming platform, but I have the other consoles for exclusives I might want to try.  There is a lot of cross-pollination and many people who bought Skyrim on the 360 or PS3 might have had a computer that could run it, but didn't bother because they prefer the controller, the couch and/or the big-screen tv.

Originally posted by Zylaxx
I could care less what TES fans think or believe.  As a fan of RvR content, and open world PvE freedom of exploration style content I coudlnt be happier.  IMO they have the best of both worlds in TES and DAoC while culling the stuff that sucked.  Like DAoC's grind centric camp spawning PvE and TES FPS combat and boring and archaic combat.

As I said before, this is not a core userbase, this is roughly 500 people who will come to this game just for the RvR.  How many people still play DAOC?  If it was that amazing, trumping all other issues, it would have kept that audience, but it's not, it's actually rather boring after about a month, becuase there's nothing dynamic, it is the same boring game of tug-of-war over and over.

The OP's assessment is fair, their core userbase is/was TES fans and they utterly squandered it.  What do they have left: 250,000 or so MMO nomads who will go back to WoW once they've reached max level and 500-1000 hardcore RvR nutjobs who hang out in Cyrodiil the whole time.

Hope and wishful thinking doesnt mean nothing whne talking of statistics.  Any and every poll about DAoC has always claimed it to be one of the greatest MMO's in the history of the genre and any poll taken today will show alot of old school vets want a rebirth of DAoC.  What better way then with a reconizable IP.  Where did you come up with this scientific number of 500 [eople anyway?  You do realize that MMORPG.com is not the only MMO forum right?  There are potentially millions of gamers that want something like this.  I also pulled that number out of my ass but unlike you, I have history, an d countless forums posts to back it up.

Please, I emplore you, show me one of these "polls."

Also, I gave you a much more generous sampling above, enjoy, ;)

Originally posted by Entinerint

Originally posted by Zylaxx

Originally posted by Entinerint

Originally posted by Zylaxx

Originally posted by jiveturkey12

Originally posted by Zylaxx

Originally posted by jiveturkey12

Elder Scrolls Online's core player base has been crippled from day one of the games annoucement. Here are my reasonings,

1. Hero Engine Debacle

When the game was first announced, one of the key features toted was the use of the same engine as Star Wars: The Old Republic, the very controversial "Hero Engine". As soon as the Game-Informer Article hit the internet forum posts blasting the use of the engine shot up right here on MMORPG.com; along with articles confirming this fan outry on Massivly and other major MMO publications. 

Here is where I give the ESO Devs some credit, as they quickly dispelled the previously announced feature as nothing more than a simple "Whiteboard" which they used to make the "Real Engine". But suspicions had already begun in the community since the original announcement, even diehard Elder Scrolls fans reamined wary, with features like "Voice-Overs" and All-Age Appropriate Graphics still confirmed, things started to seem too similar to other projects from the Hero Engine.

2. Game-Informer speaks Candidly about lack of Core Elder Scrolls Series Features

Along with the Game-Informer article also came a further hit to not only Hardcore Elder Scrolls fans, but also to the general fans of megahit "Skyrim"; the ES series most accesible link to the gaming community. Features like Player-Housing, Were-wolves, First-Person combat, wernt making the transition to the Elder Scrolls MMO "Because of the constraints inherent to an online game" according to the games developers, but Zenimax Online assued the fans they would be "including everything that makes sense."

3. Three-Factions, Race-Locked, No Imperials

So it wasnt long after Zenimax Promised to "Include Everything that makes sense", that they gave us information on the games core mechanics, which included Three Factions at war against each other. DAOC fans quickly flocked to the games forums and other sites giving the game its most solid boost of concurrent fans since the previous announcments. 

But even with the small impact the DAOC community gave to ESO, it was completely overshadowed by the complete abandonment of many Core Elder Scrolls fans, who saw the three race locked factions as a complete deviation from the games well standing lore, as well as a limit on player interaction between all races which had never been seen in a full fledged ES game before. 

The lack of a core ES Race (Imperials) from the mix, placing them instead as a more antagonistic NPC roll, also came across as a strange decision as they had always been a default choice for many first time players of the game not familiar with the ES lore. (This is because of the overtly "European-American" look Imperials have)

In Conclusion - A Mature Audience detracted by an Adolescent game

So now what we are left with is a completely divided community, ESO's target audience has been consistently shown to be All-Age Appropriate, even though the core features of the Elder Scrolls Franchise have always been more adult-themed/ oriented. The advent of DAOC fans to the game is a fair audience but incomparable numbers wise to the outflux of core Elder Scrolls fans, and Adult Gamers who made up the games Core Audience.

Does anyone feel that ESO can recover from such poor early development/PR choices?

Considering hte core Audience for TES games are console gamers and not MMO players is this such a bad thing?  The vast majority of TES games sales is, and always will be from consoles and the modding community.  TESO attempts to give MMO gamers a game remeniscent of older style MMO's within a framework of lore and game design elements of TES.  Along the way there will alot of players from both the console and the MMO.  I can definitly state that if TESO was a port of Skyrim into a MMO, aint no way in hell would I play it.  Mainly because I hate the combat in TES but primarily a true port to MMO would HAVE to include open conflict, FFA style ganking style PvP.  Aint no way will I ever play any style of non consentual PvP.

First off, your completely mislead with this statement. There is no modding community on the xbox, the only modding community for TES has always been on the PC ONLY. Therfore you just stated that the vast majority of game sales are from consoles but also PC sales. I believe that means there is a contradiction in your own statements. 

And I think its a little obvious that PC sales of Skyrim/Oblivion/Morrowing were all very high. Are you counting Steam sales of Elder Scrolls games as well? Yes they were not the numbers of the console but thats simply because of accesibility, not because of the type of gamer. So im sorry my friend but you are wrong on all counts here. 

Are you telling me that you believe Console gamers would be more interested in a Thrid-person Themepark MMO rather than a Mature First Person MMO?? 

Reading comprehension much?  I said the 2 biggest sources of TES community is Consoles and Modders.  Note the inclusion of the word "And", which is typical used in the english language to convey: (used to connect grammatically coordinate words, phrases, or clauses) along or together with; as well as; in addition to; besides; also; moreover:"

 

In other words it means to differentiate the 2 groups anot to imply them being the same group: If I had said The Modding Console community then you would be correct but since I split the 2 groups with the word "and" it is implcitly meant to distinguish 2 groups of gamers.

 

No my post was to show that the vast majority of TES fans belong to 2 distiinct groups, and (theres that word again which means I am about to seperate 2 different things so follow along here) to show that in order to make a successful MMO then you MUST appeal to the MMO crowd.  Zenimax is hoping to get enough of those 2 crowds (well mainly the console crowd) to hopefully come over to the PC market while attempting to appeal to the MMO vets.  They could of done this a different way, but then again market analysis shows that WoW clones dont do well and the director is a former Mythic employee (of DAoC fame) it stands to reason the decision from the start of development was to capture some of the magic of RvR DAoC crowd.  Common sense dictates the reasoning behind this concept and as much as you may not like it or dont agree with it, it is a valid and totally legitimate endeavor.  Primarily due to already knowing that the MMO version will not appeal to the console gamer and it isnt feasible to make a WoW clone so what else is left.

The numbers deceive you.

2.5 million Skyrim sales on PC to date.

250,000 DOAC players at its peak.

Even if every single last one of them (including myself) return, that is 10% of the potential userbase if they'd catered to the TES PC users.

Not all 2.5 million of those Skyrim users are modders, sorry to burst your bubble.

7.1 million for consoles and 1.7 million for PC, so again why wouldnt they create the MMO version for the PC crowd (i.e. MMO)

 

DAoC also came out during the pre-WoW era and 250k at that time was #1 or #2 for subscribers.  Any future statistics must include a Largely and exponentialy greater playerbase of the MMO market.

No, 2.45 million (to be exact), not 1.7. 

Oh ok, we'll just throw the numbers out the window and make baseless assumptions based merely on prejudice since the numbers suddenly aren't working in your favor. 

You must realize that, the only people hungering for DAOC's RVR to return, the userbase you are counting on to save your precious TESO, are those who played DAOC and enjoyed it.  If 250,000 is your sample base, then you must account for those who didn't enjoy it enough to be waiting for another game to utilize the RvR system for the next 10 years.

At best, most generous estimate, I give you 10%, 25,000 people.

Let's say they charge 60$ at retail and 15$/mo to those 25,000 people.

In order to break even on their 300 million dollar budget, they will need appoximately 900 months to do so.  That's 75 years.

Good luck with that.

Again you are dismissing the fact that the MMO market is hundreds, if not thousands of times greater then it was in 2002.  I can also scientifically prove using statistics that is 250k players (out of the 1million of that time) liked and consider DAoC to be one of the best MMO's on the market in 2002, it isnt out of the realm of impossiblity to extrapolate that number into todays market share.  Say 20 million MMO players today (and thats being very conservative) out of that, 25% will play TESO.  Those are astronomically high numbe rs of potential players.  Now I am not saying TESO will have a playerbase of 5 million but it sure as hell will have alot more then 250K just by using common sense and reasoning quatifiable by statistics.

Originally posted by Entinerint

Originally posted by Zylaxx

Originally posted by Entinerint

Originally posted by ShakyMo
1 its using a heavily modified version of the skyrim engine.

Tes core audience is CONSOLE GAMERS

LOL no it is not using a heavily modified version of the Skyrim engine, NOWHERE does it say that.  They built their own engine from scratch after the Hero engine was used as a prototyping system.

Of the 11 million Skyrim sales to date, approximately 2.5 million of those were on the PC.  That's more users than any MMO has ever launched with.  SWTOR came close at 2.1 million.

Also, the move to add Mac support will allow many console gamers, who might have a Mac instead of a PC, to connect as well.

There is no solid dividing line between PC and console gamers, I have a PC, a 360 and a PS3.  My girlfriend has a Wii so that completes the console trifecta in our household.  PC is my main gaming platform, but I have the other consoles for exclusives I might want to try.  There is a lot of cross-pollination and many people who bought Skyrim on the 360 or PS3 might have had a computer that could run it, but didn't bother because they prefer the controller, the couch and/or the big-screen tv.

Originally posted by Zylaxx
I could care less what TES fans think or believe.  As a fan of RvR content, and open world PvE freedom of exploration style content I coudlnt be happier.  IMO they have the best of both worlds in TES and DAoC while culling the stuff that sucked.  Like DAoC's grind centric camp spawning PvE and TES FPS combat and boring and archaic combat.

As I said before, this is not a core userbase, this is roughly 500 people who will come to this game just for the RvR.  How many people still play DAOC?  If it was that amazing, trumping all other issues, it would have kept that audience, but it's not, it's actually rather boring after about a month, becuase there's nothing dynamic, it is the same boring game of tug-of-war over and over.

The OP's assessment is fair, their core userbase is/was TES fans and they utterly squandered it.  What do they have left: 250,000 or so MMO nomads who will go back to WoW once they've reached max level and 500-1000 hardcore RvR nutjobs who hang out in Cyrodiil the whole time.

Hope and wishful thinking doesnt mean nothing whne talking of statistics.  Any and every poll about DAoC has always claimed it to be one of the greatest MMO's in the history of the genre and any poll taken today will show alot of old school vets want a rebirth of DAoC.  What better way then with a reconizable IP.  Where did you come up with this scientific number of 500 [eople anyway?  You do realize that MMORPG.com is not the only MMO forum right?  There are potentially millions of gamers that want something like this.  I also pulled that number out of my ass but unlike you, I have history, an d countless forums posts to back it up.

Please, I emplore you, show me one of these "polls."

Also, I gave you a much more generous sampling above, enjoy, ;)

Google best MMO of all time, usually DAoC falls within the top 10 of every gaming website.

http://www.google.com/webhp?sourceid=toolbar-instant&hl=en&ion=1&qscrl=1&rlz=1T4GZAB_enUS449US449#hl=en&qscrl=1&rlz=1T4GZAB_enUS449US449&sclient=psy-ab&q=greatest%20MMO%20of%20all%20time&oq=&gs_l=&pbx=1&fp=9dac06e9a9126a6e&bpcl=35277026&ion=1&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.r_qf.&biw=1676&bih=765

Originally posted by Zylaxx

Originally posted by Entinerint

Originally posted by Zylaxx

Originally posted by Entinerint

Originally posted by Zylaxx

Originally posted by jiveturkey12

Originally posted by Zylaxx

Originally posted by jiveturkey12

Elder Scrolls Online's core player base has been crippled from day one of the games annoucement. Here are my reasonings,

1. Hero Engine Debacle

When the game was first announced, one of the key features toted was the use of the same engine as Star Wars: The Old Republic, the very controversial "Hero Engine". As soon as the Game-Informer Article hit the internet forum posts blasting the use of the engine shot up right here on MMORPG.com; along with articles confirming this fan outry on Massivly and other major MMO publications. 

Here is where I give the ESO Devs some credit, as they quickly dispelled the previously announced feature as nothing more than a simple "Whiteboard" which they used to make the "Real Engine". But suspicions had already begun in the community since the original announcement, even diehard Elder Scrolls fans reamined wary, with features like "Voice-Overs" and All-Age Appropriate Graphics still confirmed, things started to seem too similar to other projects from the Hero Engine.

2. Game-Informer speaks Candidly about lack of Core Elder Scrolls Series Features

Along with the Game-Informer article also came a further hit to not only Hardcore Elder Scrolls fans, but also to the general fans of megahit "Skyrim"; the ES series most accesible link to the gaming community. Features like Player-Housing, Were-wolves, First-Person combat, wernt making the transition to the Elder Scrolls MMO "Because of the constraints inherent to an online game" according to the games developers, but Zenimax Online assued the fans they would be "including everything that makes sense."

3. Three-Factions, Race-Locked, No Imperials

So it wasnt long after Zenimax Promised to "Include Everything that makes sense", that they gave us information on the games core mechanics, which included Three Factions at war against each other. DAOC fans quickly flocked to the games forums and other sites giving the game its most solid boost of concurrent fans since the previous announcments. 

But even with the small impact the DAOC community gave to ESO, it was completely overshadowed by the complete abandonment of many Core Elder Scrolls fans, who saw the three race locked factions as a complete deviation from the games well standing lore, as well as a limit on player interaction between all races which had never been seen in a full fledged ES game before. 

The lack of a core ES Race (Imperials) from the mix, placing them instead as a more antagonistic NPC roll, also came across as a strange decision as they had always been a default choice for many first time players of the game not familiar with the ES lore. (This is because of the overtly "European-American" look Imperials have)

In Conclusion - A Mature Audience detracted by an Adolescent game

So now what we are left with is a completely divided community, ESO's target audience has been consistently shown to be All-Age Appropriate, even though the core features of the Elder Scrolls Franchise have always been more adult-themed/ oriented. The advent of DAOC fans to the game is a fair audience but incomparable numbers wise to the outflux of core Elder Scrolls fans, and Adult Gamers who made up the games Core Audience.

Does anyone feel that ESO can recover from such poor early development/PR choices?

Considering hte core Audience for TES games are console gamers and not MMO players is this such a bad thing?  The vast majority of TES games sales is, and always will be from consoles and the modding community.  TESO attempts to give MMO gamers a game remeniscent of older style MMO's within a framework of lore and game design elements of TES.  Along the way there will alot of players from both the console and the MMO.  I can definitly state that if TESO was a port of Skyrim into a MMO, aint no way in hell would I play it.  Mainly because I hate the combat in TES but primarily a true port to MMO would HAVE to include open conflict, FFA style ganking style PvP.  Aint no way will I ever play any style of non consentual PvP.

First off, your completely mislead with this statement. There is no modding community on the xbox, the only modding community for TES has always been on the PC ONLY. Therfore you just stated that the vast majority of game sales are from consoles but also PC sales. I believe that means there is a contradiction in your own statements. 

And I think its a little obvious that PC sales of Skyrim/Oblivion/Morrowing were all very high. Are you counting Steam sales of Elder Scrolls games as well? Yes they were not the numbers of the console but thats simply because of accesibility, not because of the type of gamer. So im sorry my friend but you are wrong on all counts here. 

Are you telling me that you believe Console gamers would be more interested in a Thrid-person Themepark MMO rather than a Mature First Person MMO?? 

Reading comprehension much?  I said the 2 biggest sources of TES community is Consoles and Modders.  Note the inclusion of the word "And", which is typical used in the english language to convey: (used to connect grammatically coordinate words, phrases, or clauses) along or together with; as well as; in addition to; besides; also; moreover:"

 

In other words it means to differentiate the 2 groups anot to imply them being the same group: If I had said The Modding Console community then you would be correct but since I split the 2 groups with the word "and" it is implcitly meant to distinguish 2 groups of gamers.

 

No my post was to show that the vast majority of TES fans belong to 2 distiinct groups, and (theres that word again which means I am about to seperate 2 different things so follow along here) to show that in order to make a successful MMO then you MUST appeal to the MMO crowd.  Zenimax is hoping to get enough of those 2 crowds (well mainly the console crowd) to hopefully come over to the PC market while attempting to appeal to the MMO vets.  They could of done this a different way, but then again market analysis shows that WoW clones dont do well and the director is a former Mythic employee (of DAoC fame) it stands to reason the decision from the start of development was to capture some of the magic of RvR DAoC crowd.  Common sense dictates the reasoning behind this concept and as much as you may not like it or dont agree with it, it is a valid and totally legitimate endeavor.  Primarily due to already knowing that the MMO version will not appeal to the console gamer and it isnt feasible to make a WoW clone so what else is left.

The numbers deceive you.

2.5 million Skyrim sales on PC to date.

250,000 DOAC players at its peak.

Even if every single last one of them (including myself) return, that is 10% of the potential userbase if they'd catered to the TES PC users.

Not all 2.5 million of those Skyrim users are modders, sorry to burst your bubble.

7.1 million for consoles and 1.7 million for PC, so again why wouldnt they create the MMO version for the PC crowd (i.e. MMO)

 

DAoC also came out during the pre-WoW era and 250k at that time was #1 or #2 for subscribers.  Any future statistics must include a Largely and exponentialy greater playerbase of the MMO market.

No, 2.45 million (to be exact), not 1.7. 

Oh ok, we'll just throw the numbers out the window and make baseless assumptions based merely on prejudice since the numbers suddenly aren't working in your favor. 

You must realize that, the only people hungering for DAOC's RVR to return, the userbase you are counting on to save your precious TESO, are those who played DAOC and enjoyed it.  If 250,000 is your sample base, then you must account for those who didn't enjoy it enough to be waiting for another game to utilize the RvR system for the next 10 years.

At best, most generous estimate, I give you 10%, 25,000 people.

Let's say they charge 60$ at retail and 15$/mo to those 25,000 people.

In order to break even on their 300 million dollar budget, they will need appoximately 900 months to do so.  That's 75 years.

Good luck with that.

Again you are dismissing the fact that the MMO market is hundreds, if not thousands of times greater then it was in 2002.  I can also scientifically prove using statistics that is 250k players (out of the 1million of that time) liked and consider DAoC to be one of the best MMO's on the market in 2002, it isnt out of the realm of impossiblity to extrapolate that number into todays market share.  Say 20 million MMO players today (and thats being very conservative) out of that, 25% will play TESO.  Those are astronomically high numbe rs of potential players.  Now I am not saying TESO will have a playerbase of 5 million but it sure as hell will have alot more then 250K just by using common sense and reasoning quatifiable by statistics.

Let me spell this out for you very specifically, because you do not understand how this works:

THE. ONLY. PEOPLE. WHO. CAN. LONG. FOR. DAOC'S. RVR. ARE. PEOPLE. WHO. PLAYED. DAOC.

THAT. IS. 250,000. PEOPLE.

Those people do not "inflate" in some way, no extrapolation possible.  No one who hasn't played DAOC longs for DAOC's RvR.  There is no expansion of their people.

Again, link the polls, link that so-called proof.  If you can show me 20 million votes, or 250,000, or even 25,000, I'll even accept 2,500 voting for RvR in a poll that includes RvR, FFA, and Instanced PvP then I will concede.

Of all the available IPs, the Elder Scrolls world was the one that seemed tailor made for a sandbox type of game.  All of the single player Elder Scroll games are basically sandbox type games especially when you include player mods.

The lore was all there ready to go and you would have had one sandbow MMO game that people would platy for two reasons.  One, because it is a sandbox game and every other triple A MMO is a themepark game, and two because it is Elder Scrolls.

They basically shot themselves in the both feet, pissing off the MMO crowd who are not going to play yet another themepark WOW clone.  And they piss off Elder Scrolls fans because the game has ZERO to do with any core feature of any Elder Scrolls game.

And to top it off, this game will baically block the Elder Scrolls IP for about 8 years or so, just like TOR will block any other attempt to make another Star Wars MMO because they do not want competition.

This game was the worst received MMO I have ever seen.  The day the first news of the features of the game hit, there was not one single person on the forums who was looking forward to the game.

All they are really trying to do is make another DAOC game.  Why screw up the Elder Scrolls lore....who knows.

The only good thing to come out of this is that the single player Elder Scrolls games will continue.  This MMO will tank so hard it will make TOR look like a mass success.

Originally posted by ShakyMo
1 its using a heavily modified version of the skyrim engine.

Tes core audience is CONSOLE GAMERS

The Elder Scrolls  world was first released on PC not a console.

Originally posted by Entinerint

Originally posted by Zylaxx

Originally posted by Entinerint

Originally posted by Zylaxx

Originally posted by Entinerint

Originally posted by Zylaxx

Originally posted by jiveturkey12

Originally posted by Zylaxx

Originally posted by jiveturkey12

Elder Scrolls Online's core player base has been crippled from day one of the games annoucement. Here are my reasonings,

1. Hero Engine Debacle

When the game was first announced, one of the key features toted was the use of the same engine as Star Wars: The Old Republic, the very controversial "Hero Engine". As soon as the Game-Informer Article hit the internet forum posts blasting the use of the engine shot up right here on MMORPG.com; along with articles confirming this fan outry on Massivly and other major MMO publications. 

Here is where I give the ESO Devs some credit, as they quickly dispelled the previously announced feature as nothing more than a simple "Whiteboard" which they used to make the "Real Engine". But suspicions had already begun in the community since the original announcement, even diehard Elder Scrolls fans reamined wary, with features like "Voice-Overs" and All-Age Appropriate Graphics still confirmed, things started to seem too similar to other projects from the Hero Engine.

2. Game-Informer speaks Candidly about lack of Core Elder Scrolls Series Features

Along with the Game-Informer article also came a further hit to not only Hardcore Elder Scrolls fans, but also to the general fans of megahit "Skyrim"; the ES series most accesible link to the gaming community. Features like Player-Housing, Were-wolves, First-Person combat, wernt making the transition to the Elder Scrolls MMO "Because of the constraints inherent to an online game" according to the games developers, but Zenimax Online assued the fans they would be "including everything that makes sense."

3. Three-Factions, Race-Locked, No Imperials

So it wasnt long after Zenimax Promised to "Include Everything that makes sense", that they gave us information on the games core mechanics, which included Three Factions at war against each other. DAOC fans quickly flocked to the games forums and other sites giving the game its most solid boost of concurrent fans since the previous announcments. 

But even with the small impact the DAOC community gave to ESO, it was completely overshadowed by the complete abandonment of many Core Elder Scrolls fans, who saw the three race locked factions as a complete deviation from the games well standing lore, as well as a limit on player interaction between all races which had never been seen in a full fledged ES game before. 

The lack of a core ES Race (Imperials) from the mix, placing them instead as a more antagonistic NPC roll, also came across as a strange decision as they had always been a default choice for many first time players of the game not familiar with the ES lore. (This is because of the overtly "European-American" look Imperials have)

In Conclusion - A Mature Audience detracted by an Adolescent game

So now what we are left with is a completely divided community, ESO's target audience has been consistently shown to be All-Age Appropriate, even though the core features of the Elder Scrolls Franchise have always been more adult-themed/ oriented. The advent of DAOC fans to the game is a fair audience but incomparable numbers wise to the outflux of core Elder Scrolls fans, and Adult Gamers who made up the games Core Audience.

Does anyone feel that ESO can recover from such poor early development/PR choices?

Considering hte core Audience for TES games are console gamers and not MMO players is this such a bad thing?  The vast majority of TES games sales is, and always will be from consoles and the modding community.  TESO attempts to give MMO gamers a game remeniscent of older style MMO's within a framework of lore and game design elements of TES.  Along the way there will alot of players from both the console and the MMO.  I can definitly state that if TESO was a port of Skyrim into a MMO, aint no way in hell would I play it.  Mainly because I hate the combat in TES but primarily a true port to MMO would HAVE to include open conflict, FFA style ganking style PvP.  Aint no way will I ever play any style of non consentual PvP.

First off, your completely mislead with this statement. There is no modding community on the xbox, the only modding community for TES has always been on the PC ONLY. Therfore you just stated that the vast majority of game sales are from consoles but also PC sales. I believe that means there is a contradiction in your own statements. 

And I think its a little obvious that PC sales of Skyrim/Oblivion/Morrowing were all very high. Are you counting Steam sales of Elder Scrolls games as well? Yes they were not the numbers of the console but thats simply because of accesibility, not because of the type of gamer. So im sorry my friend but you are wrong on all counts here. 

Are you telling me that you believe Console gamers would be more interested in a Thrid-person Themepark MMO rather than a Mature First Person MMO?? 

Reading comprehension much?  I said the 2 biggest sources of TES community is Consoles and Modders.  Note the inclusion of the word "And", which is typical used in the english language to convey: (used to connect grammatically coordinate words, phrases, or clauses) along or together with; as well as; in addition to; besides; also; moreover:"

 

In other words it means to differentiate the 2 groups anot to imply them being the same group: If I had said The Modding Console community then you would be correct but since I split the 2 groups with the word "and" it is implcitly meant to distinguish 2 groups of gamers.

 

No my post was to show that the vast majority of TES fans belong to 2 distiinct groups, and (theres that word again which means I am about to seperate 2 different things so follow along here) to show that in order to make a successful MMO then you MUST appeal to the MMO crowd.  Zenimax is hoping to get enough of those 2 crowds (well mainly the console crowd) to hopefully come over to the PC market while attempting to appeal to the MMO vets.  They could of done this a different way, but then again market analysis shows that WoW clones dont do well and the director is a former Mythic employee (of DAoC fame) it stands to reason the decision from the start of development was to capture some of the magic of RvR DAoC crowd.  Common sense dictates the reasoning behind this concept and as much as you may not like it or dont agree with it, it is a valid and totally legitimate endeavor.  Primarily due to already knowing that the MMO version will not appeal to the console gamer and it isnt feasible to make a WoW clone so what else is left.

The numbers deceive you.

2.5 million Skyrim sales on PC to date.

250,000 DOAC players at its peak.

Even if every single last one of them (including myself) return, that is 10% of the potential userbase if they'd catered to the TES PC users.

Not all 2.5 million of those Skyrim users are modders, sorry to burst your bubble.

7.1 million for consoles and 1.7 million for PC, so again why wouldnt they create the MMO version for the PC crowd (i.e. MMO)

 

DAoC also came out during the pre-WoW era and 250k at that time was #1 or #2 for subscribers.  Any future statistics must include a Largely and exponentialy greater playerbase of the MMO market.

No, 2.45 million (to be exact), not 1.7. 

Oh ok, we'll just throw the numbers out the window and make baseless assumptions based merely on prejudice since the numbers suddenly aren't working in your favor. 

You must realize that, the only people hungering for DAOC's RVR to return, the userbase you are counting on to save your precious TESO, are those who played DAOC and enjoyed it.  If 250,000 is your sample base, then you must account for those who didn't enjoy it enough to be waiting for another game to utilize the RvR system for the next 10 years.

At best, most generous estimate, I give you 10%, 25,000 people.

Let's say they charge 60$ at retail and 15$/mo to those 25,000 people.

In order to break even on their 300 million dollar budget, they will need appoximately 900 months to do so.  That's 75 years.

Good luck with that.

Again you are dismissing the fact that the MMO market is hundreds, if not thousands of times greater then it was in 2002.  I can also scientifically prove using statistics that is 250k players (out of the 1million of that time) liked and consider DAoC to be one of the best MMO's on the market in 2002, it isnt out of the realm of impossiblity to extrapolate that number into todays market share.  Say 20 million MMO players today (and thats being very conservative) out of that, 25% will play TESO.  Those are astronomically high numbe rs of potential players.  Now I am not saying TESO will have a playerbase of 5 million but it sure as hell will have alot more then 250K just by using common sense and reasoning quatifiable by statistics.

Let me spell this out for you very specifically, because you do not understand how this works:

THE. ONLY. PEOPLE. WHO. CAN. LONG. FOR. DAOC'S. RVR. ARE. PEOPLE. WHO. PLAYED. DAOC.

THAT. IS. 250,000. PEOPLE.

Those people do not "inflate" in some way, no extrapolation possible.  No one who hasn't played DAOC longs for DAOC's RvR.  There is no expansion of their people.

Again, link the polls, link that so-called proof.  If you can show me 20 million votes, or 250,000, or even 25,000, I'll even accept 2,500 voting for RvR in a poll that includes RvR, FFA, and Instanced PvP then I will concede.

You honestly believe Zenimax is developing a game with a top end population of 250k players?

Delusional much?  It doesnt take a rocket scientist to use stats of potential players to reason they think alot of players will want to play.  From the TES single player gamers, to the MMO vets.

Again google Top MMO's of all time, DAoC is in the top 10 of just about every list.

Originally posted by koboldfodder

Of all the available IPs, the Elder Scrolls world was the one that seemed tailor made for a sandbox type of game.  All of the single player Elder Scroll games are basically sandbox type games especially when you include player mods.

The lore was all there ready to go and you would have had one sandbow MMO game that people would platy for two reasons.  One, because it is a sandbox game and every other triple A MMO is a themepark game, and two because it is Elder Scrolls.

They basically shot themselves in the both feet, pissing off the MMO crowd who are not going to play yet another themepark WOW clone.  And they piss off Elder Scrolls fans because the game has ZERO to do with any core feature of any Elder Scrolls game.

And to top it off, this game will baically block the Elder Scrolls IP for about 8 years or so, just like TOR will block any other attempt to make another Star Wars MMO because they do not want competition.

This game was the worst received MMO I have ever seen.  The day the first news of the features of the game hit, there was not one single person on the forums who was looking forward to the game.

 

All they are really trying to do is make another DAOC game.  Why screw up the Elder Scrolls lore....who knows.

 

The only good thing to come out of this is that the single player Elder Scrolls games will continue.  This MMO will tank so hard it will make TOR look like a mass success.

Where do you get your information in saying that TESO will be a thempark game.  There own FAQ says the game world will be open, and hence elder scrolls like.  I suggest you read http://tamrielfoundry.com/development-faq/  You might be pleasently suprised.

The only feature missing I dont agree with is player housing, but they do say it will come at a later time.

Originally posted by Zylaxx

 

You honestly believe Zenimax is developing a game with a top end population of 250k players?

 

Delusional much?  It doesnt take a rocket scientist to use stats of potential players to reason they think alot of players will want to play.  From the TES single player gamers, to the MMO vets.

I don't see any polls you promised, just empty conjecture.

What I "believe" is that they began development in 2007, when the MMOG horizon was a gold rush of WoW-clones.  Now, after five years of development in one direction, that direction is now turning on them, and they will either adapt or die.

As their potetnial audience, we have only to wait and watch, and in the mean time to discuss to our heart's content.  Personally, I love train-wrecks, the slower, the better.

Originally posted by Entinerint

Originally posted by Zylaxx

Originally posted by Entinerint

Originally posted by Zylaxx

Originally posted by Entinerint

Originally posted by Zylaxx

Originally posted by jiveturkey12

Originally posted by Zylaxx

Originally posted by jiveturkey12

Elder Scrolls Online's core player base has been crippled from day one of the games annoucement. Here are my reasonings,

1. Hero Engine Debacle

When the game was first announced, one of the key features toted was the use of the same engine as Star Wars: The Old Republic, the very controversial "Hero Engine". As soon as the Game-Informer Article hit the internet forum posts blasting the use of the engine shot up right here on MMORPG.com; along with articles confirming this fan outry on Massivly and other major MMO publications. 

Here is where I give the ESO Devs some credit, as they quickly dispelled the previously announced feature as nothing more than a simple "Whiteboard" which they used to make the "Real Engine". But suspicions had already begun in the community since the original announcement, even diehard Elder Scrolls fans reamined wary, with features like "Voice-Overs" and All-Age Appropriate Graphics still confirmed, things started to seem too similar to other projects from the Hero Engine.

2. Game-Informer speaks Candidly about lack of Core Elder Scrolls Series Features

Along with the Game-Informer article also came a further hit to not only Hardcore Elder Scrolls fans, but also to the general fans of megahit "Skyrim"; the ES series most accesible link to the gaming community. Features like Player-Housing, Were-wolves, First-Person combat, wernt making the transition to the Elder Scrolls MMO "Because of the constraints inherent to an online game" according to the games developers, but Zenimax Online assued the fans they would be "including everything that makes sense."

3. Three-Factions, Race-Locked, No Imperials

So it wasnt long after Zenimax Promised to "Include Everything that makes sense", that they gave us information on the games core mechanics, which included Three Factions at war against each other. DAOC fans quickly flocked to the games forums and other sites giving the game its most solid boost of concurrent fans since the previous announcments. 

But even with the small impact the DAOC community gave to ESO, it was completely overshadowed by the complete abandonment of many Core Elder Scrolls fans, who saw the three race locked factions as a complete deviation from the games well standing lore, as well as a limit on player interaction between all races which had never been seen in a full fledged ES game before. 

The lack of a core ES Race (Imperials) from the mix, placing them instead as a more antagonistic NPC roll, also came across as a strange decision as they had always been a default choice for many first time players of the game not familiar with the ES lore. (This is because of the overtly "European-American" look Imperials have)

In Conclusion - A Mature Audience detracted by an Adolescent game

So now what we are left with is a completely divided community, ESO's target audience has been consistently shown to be All-Age Appropriate, even though the core features of the Elder Scrolls Franchise have always been more adult-themed/ oriented. The advent of DAOC fans to the game is a fair audience but incomparable numbers wise to the outflux of core Elder Scrolls fans, and Adult Gamers who made up the games Core Audience.

Does anyone feel that ESO can recover from such poor early development/PR choices?

Considering hte core Audience for TES games are console gamers and not MMO players is this such a bad thing?  The vast majority of TES games sales is, and always will be from consoles and the modding community.  TESO attempts to give MMO gamers a game remeniscent of older style MMO's within a framework of lore and game design elements of TES.  Along the way there will alot of players from both the console and the MMO.  I can definitly state that if TESO was a port of Skyrim into a MMO, aint no way in hell would I play it.  Mainly because I hate the combat in TES but primarily a true port to MMO would HAVE to include open conflict, FFA style ganking style PvP.  Aint no way will I ever play any style of non consentual PvP.

First off, your completely mislead with this statement. There is no modding community on the xbox, the only modding community for TES has always been on the PC ONLY. Therfore you just stated that the vast majority of game sales are from consoles but also PC sales. I believe that means there is a contradiction in your own statements. 

And I think its a little obvious that PC sales of Skyrim/Oblivion/Morrowing were all very high. Are you counting Steam sales of Elder Scrolls games as well? Yes they were not the numbers of the console but thats simply because of accesibility, not because of the type of gamer. So im sorry my friend but you are wrong on all counts here. 

Are you telling me that you believe Console gamers would be more interested in a Thrid-person Themepark MMO rather than a Mature First Person MMO?? 

Reading comprehension much?  I said the 2 biggest sources of TES community is Consoles and Modders.  Note the inclusion of the word "And", which is typical used in the english language to convey: (used to connect grammatically coordinate words, phrases, or clauses) along or together with; as well as; in addition to; besides; also; moreover:"

 

In other words it means to differentiate the 2 groups anot to imply them being the same group: If I had said The Modding Console community then you would be correct but since I split the 2 groups with the word "and" it is implcitly meant to distinguish 2 groups of gamers.

 

No my post was to show that the vast majority of TES fans belong to 2 distiinct groups, and (theres that word again which means I am about to seperate 2 different things so follow along here) to show that in order to make a successful MMO then you MUST appeal to the MMO crowd.  Zenimax is hoping to get enough of those 2 crowds (well mainly the console crowd) to hopefully come over to the PC market while attempting to appeal to the MMO vets.  They could of done this a different way, but then again market analysis shows that WoW clones dont do well and the director is a former Mythic employee (of DAoC fame) it stands to reason the decision from the start of development was to capture some of the magic of RvR DAoC crowd.  Common sense dictates the reasoning behind this concept and as much as you may not like it or dont agree with it, it is a valid and totally legitimate endeavor.  Primarily due to already knowing that the MMO version will not appeal to the console gamer and it isnt feasible to make a WoW clone so what else is left.

The numbers deceive you.

2.5 million Skyrim sales on PC to date.

250,000 DOAC players at its peak.

Even if every single last one of them (including myself) return, that is 10% of the potential userbase if they'd catered to the TES PC users.

Not all 2.5 million of those Skyrim users are modders, sorry to burst your bubble.

7.1 million for consoles and 1.7 million for PC, so again why wouldnt they create the MMO version for the PC crowd (i.e. MMO)

 

DAoC also came out during the pre-WoW era and 250k at that time was #1 or #2 for subscribers.  Any future statistics must include a Largely and exponentialy greater playerbase of the MMO market.

No, 2.45 million (to be exact), not 1.7. 

Oh ok, we'll just throw the numbers out the window and make baseless assumptions based merely on prejudice since the numbers suddenly aren't working in your favor. 

You must realize that, the only people hungering for DAOC's RVR to return, the userbase you are counting on to save your precious TESO, are those who played DAOC and enjoyed it.  If 250,000 is your sample base, then you must account for those who didn't enjoy it enough to be waiting for another game to utilize the RvR system for the next 10 years.

At best, most generous estimate, I give you 10%, 25,000 people.

Let's say they charge 60$ at retail and 15$/mo to those 25,000 people.

In order to break even on their 300 million dollar budget, they will need appoximately 900 months to do so.  That's 75 years.

Good luck with that.

Again you are dismissing the fact that the MMO market is hundreds, if not thousands of times greater then it was in 2002.  I can also scientifically prove using statistics that is 250k players (out of the 1million of that time) liked and consider DAoC to be one of the best MMO's on the market in 2002, it isnt out of the realm of impossiblity to extrapolate that number into todays market share.  Say 20 million MMO players today (and thats being very conservative) out of that, 25% will play TESO.  Those are astronomically high numbe rs of potential players.  Now I am not saying TESO will have a playerbase of 5 million but it sure as hell will have alot more then 250K just by using common sense and reasoning quatifiable by statistics.

 

Again, link the polls, link that so-called proof.  If you can show me 20 million votes, or 250,000, or even 25,000, I'll even accept 2,500 voting for RvR in a poll that includes RvR, FFA, and Instanced PvP then I will concede.

1. Aion(1 votes [2.04%] - View)

2. Percentage of vote: 2.04%

3. Asheron's Call (Darktide)(6 votes [12.24%] - View)

   Percentage of vote: 12.24%

4. Dark Age of Camelot(6 votes [12.24%] - View)

   Percentage of vote: 12.24%

5. Darkfall(3 votes [6.12%] - View)

   Percentage of vote: 6.12%

6. EVE Online(4 votes [8.16%] - View)

   Percentage of vote: 8.16%

7. Everquest 1 (Zek) (0 votes [0.00%])

   Percentage of vote: 0.00%

8. Everquest 2(1 votes [2.04%] - View)

   Percentage of vote: 2.04%

9. Guild Wars(1 votes [2.04%] - View)

   Percentage of vote: 2.04%

10. Lineage II (0 votes [0.00%])

    Percentage of vote: 0.00%

11. Rift(2 votes [4.08%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 4.08%

12. Runes of Magic(2 votes [4.08%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 4.08%

13. Shadowbane(5 votes [10.20%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 10.20%

14. Star Wars Galaxies(1 votes [2.04%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 2.04%

15. TERA Online(3 votes [6.12%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 6.12%

16. Ultima Online(8 votes [16.33%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 16.33%

17. Vanguard(2 votes [4.08%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 4.08%

18. Warhammer Online (0 votes [0.00%])

    Percentage of vote: 0.00%

19. World of Tanks(2 votes [4.08%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 4.08%

20. World of Warcraft(2 votes [4.08%] - View)