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10/13/12 6:21:21 PM#161
I don't need a savior for any of the 6+ mmo's I currently have installed and play, they all have good qualities and good variety, and none of them have "KILLED" one another.. *gasp*
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RvR is a persistent PvP battle between multiple faction over open worl objectives such as forts, towers, ect. WoW has never had this. The closest they had to it was the vault control event that happened like ever 4 hours.
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10/13/12 6:37:51 PM#163
Originally posted by deamian It would be interesting to know which 6 they are, and if they have a subscription or are F2P. My currently installed MMOs are: Darkfall (even though it's going to be wiped soon, it's still tons of fun, sub-based) Planetside 2 (Beta, f2p but I did drop 40$ on alpha squad because it is an incredibly fun game) GW2 (B2P) SWG (Emulated pre-NGE server, tons of fun, also has a wipe upcoming, totally free) Fallen Earth (Freemium - I am not paying any money but it is fun to RP and explore in) Originally posted by jiveturkey12
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10/13/12 6:41:52 PM#164
What merc said
There's 4 pvp models Ffa games - darkfall, eve, uo, asherons call on darktide server, daoc on mordred server rvr games - daoc core servers, planetside 1 & 2, war, aion and sort of gw2 Faction restricted ffa - wow pvp servers, rift pvp servers Tupperware pvp (in a box and / or timed) Wow, rift, swtor |
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10/13/12 6:44:26 PM#165
Wow has tupperware pvp, its not a bloody rvr game like daoc or planetside, its a raid grinder with token tacked on pvp.
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10/13/12 6:45:53 PM#166
Originally posted by Fagmod I thought pvpers don't like to be hand held? Here is the link. http://elderscrollsonline.com/en/faq Can I play alone? Yes, The Elder Scrolls Online can be played solo, together with friends, or in large guilds and alliances.
Who is the hero? You are the hero! Creat a character by choosing from the nine classic Elder Scrolls races. Then advanture throught the far reaches of Tamriel against hordes of undead, uncover evil plots, and confront your destiny that will change the world. Multiplayer is an important part of our player versus player (PvP) option as well. Those, Three Alliances face off in an epic battle over Tamriel's throne in the Imperial City, are for pvp purpose, and it is an option to choose. Yes, you can explore the whole world of Tamriel without making extra toons. |
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Originally posted by jiveturkey12 Personal attacks are completely uncalled for. I've reported your post.
There haven't been many AAA mmos that have made their own engine, and Bethesda is known for making amazing engines so this is a huge positive.
If you think RvR is something other that what I described then you do not know what RvR is.
A for my 24 post count I don't normally post here and I'm regretting starting because the entire community seems to be full of trolls th just brand everything wow clones even when they are nothing like wow. |
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10/13/12 7:14:21 PM#168
Originally posted by znaiika Doesn't actually say that, and it was confirmed from their official twitter that you cannot go into other faction territory, just your own two or three provinces and cyrodiil (for PvP). They were very clear. Originally posted by MercArcher LMFAO accusing someone of trolling is not a personal attack. Especially when you turn around and accurse the ENTIRE COMMUNITY of being FULL OF TROLLS. Maybe I should report your post. Or perhaps you are right, you should leave, and find somehwere that logic and common sense do not invade. In response to your content: Amazing engines? You mean they "made" Gamebryo? (they didn't) And that Gamebryo was "amazing?" (It isn't) Aside from how buggy and unoptimized their licensed engines are, and often the games, as a result (keep in mind I am a huge fan of TES) Bethesda is not the developer of TESO, just the publisher. Publishers do not make engines. This is why people might think you're trolling. The utter seemingly willful ignorance, paired with incredulous and utterly untrue assertions, makes it plausible that you might be trolling. RVR is a very specific type of gameplay, unlike others I don't find it to be very vague and I think your assessment of it is about right, which is weird, becuase that's about the only thing you seem to understand. |
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remyburke
 Advanced Member
Joined: 7/03/04
I liked MMOs better when gamers didn't play them, and just geeks did. |
10/13/12 7:20:14 PM#169
The Devs have all but admitted in several occassions that they are just going to do the same ol' same ol'....saying things like, "There's only so much an MMO can do," and other quotes I don't care enough to look up.
Playing: Nothing Played: AC1, AC2, AO, AoC, CO, CoX, DAoC, DCUO, DN, EVE, EQ1, EQ2,
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10/13/12 7:30:04 PM#170
Originally posted by Fagmod No that is not RvR. That is PvP. There is a difference. RvR is a specific term coined by the creators of DAOC which applies to specific things which were present in DAOC, and which a couple of games have used since. RvR, in terms of MMORPGs, is not used for the literal definition of realm vs realm. To put it bluntly, a game does not simply "have RvR", a game IS RvR. The core of the game is designed around that aspect, not designed around other things with RvR added in as a secondary factor. RvR also has certain other things such as territory / objective control in an open setting along with other goals and a focus on team based combat. DAOC and WAR are RvR games. Even GW2 could be considered at least semi-RvR, if not for 1 or 2 things it would be full on RvR like DAOC. WoW, and games with similar design are not RvR games. They are games that offer PvP. PvP is simply Player vs Player combat which is a part of RvR, but not the whole. |
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10/13/12 7:32:38 PM#171
I thought GW2 was the savior, or was that Swtor? Either way. No game will be the savior of a whole genre. Just enjoy the ones that are there.
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KingJiggly
 Novice Member
Joined: 8/03/11
Definition for innovation is below. Your welcome. |
10/13/12 7:36:49 PM#172
This is the stupidest thing since pet rock.
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/innovation |
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10/13/12 8:07:19 PM#173
Originally posted by Fagmod
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10/13/12 8:15:20 PM#174
Also most TES fans are single player fans and not MMO's, this game isnt for them, TESO is for MMO gamers, its just another way to get their IP to a wider audience. I Know plenty of people who have never played a TES game before and know nothing of the lore, but I also know alot of people looking forward to a spiritual successor.
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10/13/12 8:15:27 PM#175
I would not say the game plays like WoW, but I'm still with others in saying it's not what peoeple that wanted an Elder Scrolls multiplayer game wanted.
It's been said a few times over in this thread and seems to have gotten passed over each time since it's a much less controversial issue than the ones people can easily nitpick pointless semantics on, but people who enjoyed Elder Scrolls largely tend to reference it in regard to the last threee titles.
For many it's a combination of third and first person combat built into a large explorable world, the option to choose and advance skills freely to create your own combination of skills, and the ability to veer completely off course to have an unscripted romp. On top of that, there is the dedicated longterm players that create what's also often overlooked, the mod community. Unless you play on consoles, there are few longterm players who haven't delved into modding any of the last three games by now. This goes from simple things that tweak how the game manages numbers and bugfixes up to complete revisions of gameplay and entire changes in the game world.
Now. This creates two primary camps just regarding people that want a TES game. Then you also have people who want an MMO (not necessarily TES, but they like to feel the context serves some purpose). These people might have played the previous TES games, but it's not their kind of games. Instead, there is the desire to convert it tinto a more familiar and comfortable shell.
You can probably see where I'm going with this. I believe it has alrready been said previously by the devs, but I don't know where I might pull the quote from at present, that TESO wasn't really built for TES players.
Regardless of status on dev opinion, that's how those of us who revel in playing the TES games and sometimes play MMOs definitely feel. It's at least very much how I feel.
And regardless of their longterm success. The main value of several games mentioned , most notably Darkfall and Mortal Online. People clamored to those two titles early on due to their gameplay. Guess how it was generall described? 'Elder Scrolls like' and 'Oblivion like' gameplay. Their play was sold on the premise that it played like an Elder Scrolls game within the community. That's how people saw it, and that's how the community built hype on it.
There were other games that popped in and out with similarly more active gameplay over the years as well. Planetside 1/2 has been mentioned. There was also Chronicles of Spellborn (which ostensibly used similar combat, but stuck it behing a 'combat wheel' that no one seemed to like), Firefall, TSW, Raiderz, APB (poorly developed game, but even now people enjoy the gameplay), and Tera.
Then you have intermediary titles like DDO, Tabula Rasa, GW2, and the upcoming Wildstar.
On a smaller 'non-mmo' scale you have the longstanding and essentially cult classic titles of Mount & Blade and it's Warbands version, which has some of the liveliest multiplayer combat you'll probably find mashed into a medieval setting. Joining it in the fray is finally War of the Roses, and an actual M&B 2 is supposedly in the works.
This is far from a complete list, but let's deviate and address what's on and off poked at for a moment, the mechanics that are supposedly 'impossible'.
First off, we know this is a bogus claim. We know it's been a bogus claim for at least the last eight years.
There have been multiple means to, if not implement, at least replicate or emulate the style of combat in action games using online an massively multiplayer settings. On top of that there's at least two titles (Planetside 2 and Firefall) that are using more proper physics to drive their weapons in a massively multiplayer setting and are running decently stable for their dev state on top of them both including vehicles and some destructible world objects now. I'd dare say they are the extreme end of pushing online game performance though, so scaling it back what else do we have?
Well previously mentioned there's been a few games that use a different method that generally has performed better on high latency that other methods have (which is why it was used in at least one CoD MW titles) and that is raycasting the hits for a deferred hit check. Instead of trusting weapon physics and collision, and to reduce the margin of error due to the possibility of latency and lag issues, some titles such as the original Planetside, APB, Mass Effect 1, and partially in DDO have opted to instead use a method where they draw an invisible line or cone coming from the weapon or the character. When the character attacks, it does a scan for what targets are within that cone or line, and they are flagged as being hit. This is where that funky effect of aiming at the target in motion to shoot them instead of leading them comes from in some shooters.
And then what I consider the third tier, masking. Tabula Rasa was well known for this. People habitually called it an RPG that looked like an RTS. This method is where you just flatout don't use a true aiming mechanic and instead use 'socf locks'. The raycasting method is used to find a target initially, but then it operates more or less like you've tabbed to that target as long as you keep firing. This got flak when people realized they could pretty much be staring perpendicular and have the enemy they're shooting at be off screen in Tabula Rasa, but it was a considerably less taxing implementation than most.
And now we're back to the last solution that's becoming most common. Light tabbing. DDO is perhaps better known in this regard, TSW and GW2 as well. From my understanding this is where TESO is gonna be. In this solution they stick with more traditional and fundamental means to know which oponent they hit by using a zone around the character and a soft lock that does not necessarily correlate in any way to where a player elects to aim when attacking (unless thay are like me and tend to play with a mouselocked camera) because the character will generally face the target they are tabbed to when you initiate an attack.
Why detail all this. Well, my point really is that they all work. The other thing to note is that it's a sliding scale of player skill and twitch versus accessibility.
I don't mean player skill in the global sense, but being able to aim at a target, execute a particular combination of movements, etc is more than simply twitch gameplay. Something I advocate in games over the use off a hotbar is the implementation of context driven actions that are initiated by combos. At a basic level you have in Skyrim's melee, the ability to mix your block attack or directional keys to produce different kinds of other attacks with varying effects on your opponent. I know this caters to a subset of players though. Most notably the ones that don't want to have to memorize combos or fumble their way through executing them each time they want to pull off a bodyslam or somesuch and would rather have a handy single key so their character will pull it off for them.
Next most important tanget to me is that whole 'sandbox/not' argument. For many people, Elder Scrolls simply is what it is. They follow the campaigns, do the sidequests they find, and expereince pretty much just what they have let themselves be guided to.You might have some 'fork in the road' moments where they will decide if they want to do something unknown or unscripted or not, but that's not really their thing usually. These people work great for almost any MMO because their game experience is generally more hinged on what the game will throw at them, and not what their capacity is to do other things.
Then there's the second group of people who look for some forms of emergent gameplay expereinces. They are the one's that will see a fork in the road, and then run into the woods away from the road or climb the mountain that has no visible way up it just to see if there's any goodies or a neat picture to ba taken. These kind of people tend to work pretty ok in games as well, easy enough to entertain by letting them muck about and essentially deconstruct the game as they look for all the little details that drives it.
Then we have the modders. I do repeat that, especially for TES, these have been the longterm players. They can love the game for what it is. But they also love the game for the potential of what it could be, and the fact that they have the means to realize that potential. It has always been the selling point to me on Bethesda games, the ability to modify the contents to suit your whims. But it's a fine line you have to handle in multiplayer. People might be able to create custom assets, place them in the world, and muck about in that way, but there's generally a baseline that needs to be restricted, most notably game mechanics. If you let people disctate game mechanics as well you essentially end up with something incohesive and as eclectic as Second Life. Regulating control so people can't cheat really isn't as much a problem as it's usually made out to be in regards to modding. Generally it's because it's the difference of internal versus external accountability. When someone hacks a game to cheat, they are influencing the game in a way that wasn't intended to be done and as a result there are no controls to regulate them When there are official channels for mods though, it's considerably easier to regulate, because you can setup the game to verify it's own contents and lock certain parts so it won't load things that may change gameplay. Look at Neverwinter Nights servers for example. You could have a variety of mods and hak packs on your computer changing your game, but servers in that game were designed to be able to fish for specific files to load instead of having a arbitrary pool that might differentiate per client. Similarly in Quake 2. Some people knew they could make invisible/tiny game models on their own client that could be loaded into multiplayer, making them impossible to hit. However, game hosts had the ability to lock their servers so client game models wouldn't get loaded on the server. So while you were playing a dot on your game, everyone else could see and shoot you on theirs because to the server you were still a normal model.
It's not a problem of whether or not something can be done. It's a problem of whether or not one can account for the possibilities when it is done.
From my person point of view, what the developers of this game have told me is that they do not have the ability to account for the possibilities of a full TES game. Nor were they willing to gamble on anything. They have made a compromise, and in a form I do not favor as it takes away much of the things that I have valued about the series.
EDIT: As for Zylaxx's comment on opening the entire game world in single player titles. I would refer you to the official forums every time a new title is released. With Skyrim people had a mass of specualtion and requests to bethesda when they realized they had included many of the landmasses from the rest of the continent in Skyrim, but they were't accessible. Inevitably it always coems down to Bethesda is not focused on those parts of the game world, so they don't develop them to the chagrin of the players. Which in turn I then refer you to mods. Most recently there is a good bit of headway on the Skywind mod (porting all of Morrowind and Oblivion's assets into Skyrim). If you load that mod in it's current state you can use the command COC to teleport to many of the zones as they are not implemented in the worldspace, but still loaded into the game. On top of that Oblivion has had at least three other sections of it's continent fleshed out to one degree or another. Hammerfell, Elsewyer, and Morrowind notably, but sections od Black Marsh and Valenwood were also done in Oblivion mods.
So point being depending on the scope you define for the game, such htings were there or on the way, and there has very much been the demand for such things over the entire lifetime of the series. As the size of an explosion increases, the number of social situations it is incapable of solving approaches zero. - Vaarsuvius |
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10/13/12 8:21:15 PM#176
LOL not gonna read thru all this thread but any company who flat out says there will be no housing, not cause we dont want it, but becuase it is too hard? are you kidding me, this company and game has fail all over it sorry couldnt fix that exploit, was too hard, if you buy more gems at the store it will help you
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10/13/12 8:35:06 PM#177
Yeah I gotta say that the logic they use for housing is something I disagree with too.
I'm still waiting for a game that uses worldspace portals to pull off simpler housing, I imagine they could have done that at least.
For clarification, when I say 'world space portals' I mean the seldom used method of creating a game world as sectional assets that are not actually seamless, but instead bridge the assets via planes between the borders of the assets to make an apparently seamless world.
For example this is how they can get used in the game Portal 2.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_xFbRecjKQA
That video shows how the character can run though what appears to be a seamless environment with no loading in between rooms, but the spaces themselves are not technically built as a single space.
If they implemented such a mechanic in TES or any mmo, I imagine it solves the space problem on player housing at least. It enables the ability to essentially build the entirety of the house's assets hidden in an inaccessible and invisible area to the players that can be linked to the world space by a portal fitting the door frame. All the houses essentially makes all the houses into non-euclidean geometry and can be used for much more than that even.
Doesn't necessarily limit the interacitivy of such objects either. In the case of game world destruction the hidden space can be ignored and the house exterior can use a simplified design when destroyed, in-house assets either getting flagged as destroyed or migrating over to a salvageable pool from the building's rubble.. As the size of an explosion increases, the number of social situations it is incapable of solving approaches zero. - Vaarsuvius |
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10/13/12 8:39:09 PM#178
Originally posted by Entinerint You don't have to tell me that, I know very well, if you're pvp you can't go to enemy teritory without fear, someone will kill you, but you still can if no one see you or you just ask for permission to enter. |
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10/13/12 8:41:16 PM#179
I always think of housing like being in a gated community, make it a world with tons of other houses, that you goto your gate to portal in, should be like 100 houses per gate.
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10/13/12 8:50:58 PM#180
Originally posted by Myrdynn It's like this in Lotro. Though it is more like 30 houses per instance. It is horribad. Obviously it is dead, even though this instanced gateted place look nice, has public place, NPC's, NPC shops, etc I saw other person there maybe like 3 times. Of course that person was just running past me. Believe me portal straight to instanced house or portal to instanced neighbourhood of houses does not change nothing. It is still dead and stricly solo-personal experience.
Nothing I heard so far about TESO sound like "mmo saviour", seriously. |
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