Originally posted by Loke666

Originally posted by gordiflu

True, nothing new. This problem is common to all new games. Get to level cap in a couple of weeks playing casually, end of free month and you are already bored, look for new game. It's not only GW2, it's virtually any recent game.

Dont forget people complaining about how grindy the game is as well...

You cant both have little grind and 6 months to levelcap or more, it just isnt possible.

The real problem is that MMOs changed so casual players can play them as well but most of us here didnt really change. You shouldnt play any "modern" MMO long term the same way you played EQ, AC, Lineage or M59.

GW2 is an excellent game and does what it should great but if you cap out in a few weeks you are playing it too much. Yeah, I do have an 80 myself with most of the gear exoctic so maybe I shouldnt be preaching, but the fact is that modern MMOs are made for people who also have a life and can kick in an hour or 2 every day instead of a full days work like EQ.

The thing is that old MMO players are in minority today. And we should maybe take a hint and play less, or play several games beside each other.

The alternative is to make alts.

I am playing, as you say, a couple of hours per day but I still got to level 80 in about a month. So even for a casual gamer like me, GW 2 is far too easy to cap.

And before someone asks, no I dont have 100% map completion or finished every dungeon. But so what? I have to finish every mundane activity the MMORPG has before I can say I am bored? No.

So GW 2 is far to easy to cap and does not offer much once you do cap. After getting exotic gear, there is not much to improve in that, skill points stopped mattering when I got the skills I needed at level 50 or so and WvW is an endless squirrel wheel of flipping points back and forth.

So even for a casual gamer like myself, GW 2 does not offer more than a month or two of quality game play.

Originally posted by ShakyMo
The games I mentioned expanded horizontally (well except gw2 obviously, but that will expand horizontaly)

Games like wow expand vertically - new raids with even more powerful loot, new levels, new pvp sets to grind tupperware boxes for.

I guess its wait and see, but the gear differential between 10.0 and 10.4 in tsw and the fact you can only get 10.3 VIA grinding pvp tokens, lairs or dungeon tokens and can only get 10.4 purely by dungeons only suggests this is a vertical progression game. (e.g. in gw2 you can easily craft or outdoor pve a set that is as good as the dungeon and pvp sets stats wise,or any mixture of all 4)

If a 10.5 set comes with this new York raid it is definetly a vertical progression game. As it willhave expanded vertically just like all the EQ,/ wow clones.

vertical and horizontal progression refers to the game, not just the end-game.  I think any endgame will be vertical in some aspects.  Im talking about specific thing you can do in-game.  GW2's progression on all levels is vertical.  Their end-game is "non-exhistant"...not horizontal.

You wan't to see true horizontal end-game look no further than Age Of Conan's expansion which didn't increase levels, just increased difficulty.

Originally posted by Randayn

Originally posted by Gaia_Hunter

Originally posted by Randayn

Originally posted by ShakyMo
No bully.
Tsw talked about horizontal progression during beta. It still has that with the skill wheel,bit its got tiered item sets for gods sake, course its got a vertical progression endgame.

In horizontal progression themeparks like gw2, gw1, daoc and coh its very easy to get the topgear stat wise, and you can get it by any means - indoor / outdoor, pve / pvp, dropped / crafted. Further gear beyond that offers cosmetic better looks and / or possibly very minor stat changes.

Tsw is firmly routed in the vertical progression model of wow / EQ. The difference between 10.0 greens and 10.4 is huge, and no doubt there will be 10.5 with the raid.

false...the games you named were not horizontal...they had vertical scales in all aspects...not sure what's horizontal about them?

 

Read my post 2 pages ago to see what horizontal forms of progression were implemented into TSW.

I think you are trying to redefine the meaning of Horizontal progression....Horizontal progression is not based on gear, it's based on the process in which you must play the game....

TSW isn't a horizontal progression game.

All of these games are gated, some are harsher when it comes to the gating than others, but all are gated.

But if you consider crafting in TSw is a way of allowing horizontal progression then in GW2 with my 2nd I can go to any area in the game and be successful since I can level by crafting with the materials gathered by my first character.

 

seriously man?  my point with crafting in TSW is that you can craft anything and there is no leveling system involved.  In other words (Barney speaking now), you will NEVER level one single level while crafting...you can craft ANYTHING as long as you have the materials.

Your alt can't make anything they want in GW2 at anytime...they first must level their crafting up.

As for your alt leveling through crafting....they still HAVE to level....nice try

TSW has realitivly flat verticle progession after egypt, and horizpntal progression that seems endless through the ability wheel. Add in the thousands of pieces of clothes and all the faction and deck clothing items.

Of the games released in the last 4 years TSW has the most horizonal progression through the ability wheel alone, not even countting the cosmetics, which is the most of any game since, since, ever? CoH maybe?

To say anything else is either a lack of understanding what horizontal progression is, or just not being honest.

btw you don't need 10.4 to do any of the nightmare content.

Originally posted by Randayn

Originally posted by ShakyMo
The games I mentioned expanded horizontally (well except gw2 obviously, but that will expand horizontaly)

Games like wow expand vertically - new raids with even more powerful loot, new levels, new pvp sets to grind tupperware boxes for.

I guess its wait and see, but the gear differential between 10.0 and 10.4 in tsw and the fact you can only get 10.3 VIA grinding pvp tokens, lairs or dungeon tokens and can only get 10.4 purely by dungeons only suggests this is a vertical progression game. (e.g. in gw2 you can easily craft or outdoor pve a set that is as good as the dungeon and pvp sets stats wise,or any mixture of all 4)

If a 10.5 set comes with this new York raid it is definetly a vertical progression game. As it willhave expanded vertically just like all the EQ,/ wow clones.

vertical and horizontal progression refers to the game, not just the end-game.  I think any endgame will be vertical in some aspects.  Im talking about specific thing you can do in-game.  GW2's progression on all levels is vertical.  Their end-game is "non-exhistant"...not horizontal.

You wan't to see true horizontal end-game look no further than Age Of Conan's expansion which didn't increase levels, just increased difficulty.

You obviously didn't play GW1. The other chapters didn't increase your level either but did increase in difficulty. This is what A.Net did with GW1 and that was BEFORE Age of Conan - nice try.

Originally posted by ShakyMo
Imagine a graph of time played vs power

In game like gw2, coh or daoc, the graph would be at 45 degrees until you just fractionaly passed max level, then it would flatten out in the case of gw2, or drop to like 10 degrees in the case of daoc (because of renown)

In a vertical themepark like wow you get the same 45 degrees until full level, then you get this stepping thing where its flat then suddenly shoots up at like 80 degrees, with a step for each tier of gear, and new steps with each expansion

Thirdly you have sandboxes like eve where its a curve that goes mostly vertical at the start then goes mostly horizontal

Tsw falls easily into the second category, although many if us thought before release it would be like the third.

Your correct about this. This is not TSW though. TSW is much much flater more like 1 tier split into .1 .2 .3 .4. It's like a 500 ap difference or about 200 dps. You don't even need it to do the content. Yes there is verticle progression in TSW. No one ever said there wasn't

And why are you leaving out all the horizontal progression in TSW? By the time you reach "end game" in TSW you will most likley only have 30% of the wheel complete. Not only is the other 70% horizontal, it's active. You can use it. 

For those who just want cosmetics, thats there too in abundance. Much more than the competition,

Originally posted by Randayn

Originally posted by ShakyMo
The games I mentioned expanded horizontally (well except gw2 obviously, but that will expand horizontaly)

Games like wow expand vertically - new raids with even more powerful loot, new levels, new pvp sets to grind tupperware boxes for.

I guess its wait and see, but the gear differential between 10.0 and 10.4 in tsw and the fact you can only get 10.3 VIA grinding pvp tokens, lairs or dungeon tokens and can only get 10.4 purely by dungeons only suggests this is a vertical progression game. (e.g. in gw2 you can easily craft or outdoor pve a set that is as good as the dungeon and pvp sets stats wise,or any mixture of all 4)

If a 10.5 set comes with this new York raid it is definetly a vertical progression game. As it willhave expanded vertically just like all the EQ,/ wow clones.

vertical and horizontal progression refers to the game, not just the end-game.  I think any endgame will be vertical in some aspects.  Im talking about specific thing you can do in-game.  GW2's progression on all levels is vertical.  Their end-game is "non-exhistant"...not horizontal.

You wan't to see true horizontal end-game look no further than Age Of Conan's expansion which didn't increase levels, just increased difficulty.

Wait what? You seemed so rigid in your definition of horizontal progresson tell you said AoC. RotGS added a faction system which is just another form of vertical progression on top of the leveling system. A very grindy one at that. Or did you mean something else? 

---

Originally posted by Caliburn101
Oh no!

I have briefly visited every illustrated point on the map, done the dungeon storymodes once, tried the odd explorable mode and found it too hard, levelled to 80 and bought myself a set of craftable exotics.

What IS there left to do!!!!!!?????

Allow me to explain with an illustration.

I go to Rome to see the city....

.... do I;

(a) climb to the top of the tallest building by the most direct route, take in every view from the top and then get on the return plane and go home, complaining my visit was unfulfilling; or

(b) walk down every street, take in a range of cafes, restaurants, museums, the roman ruins, the Vatican, art galleries and theatres et al and enjoy an immersion in Italian culture and history

.... no prizes for the right answer....

---

I logged in just to say I enjoyed this analogy.

Originally posted by ShakyMo
Perpetuum and darkfall released in last 4 years. Safe to say they are more horizontal progression than tsw, because they are sandboxes.

Okay ;) Fair enough. 

looking forward to DFUW btw.

Originally posted by ShakyMo
Bully, well you can repeat the whole gear grind twice again If you want heal, tank and dps gear (with pvp gear being a mix of tank and either of the other two) - well more if you want hit based,pen based,crit based etc..

Another flaw with tsw imo, as the gear dependancy in the game discourages experimentation with the skill wheel, you have to stay in a narrow set of builds that go with your gear.

I can agree with this. It makes you need extra sets. I think it was intended though. Purely for adding longevity. I really don't see how you could get around this unless someone made an mmorpg that's completely flat. I'm not aware of one if there is. It would be an interesting concept though. Progression through abilities alone.

Originally posted by botrytis

Originally posted by Randayn

Originally posted by ShakyMo
The games I mentioned expanded horizontally (well except gw2 obviously, but that will expand horizontaly)

Games like wow expand vertically - new raids with even more powerful loot, new levels, new pvp sets to grind tupperware boxes for.

I guess its wait and see, but the gear differential between 10.0 and 10.4 in tsw and the fact you can only get 10.3 VIA grinding pvp tokens, lairs or dungeon tokens and can only get 10.4 purely by dungeons only suggests this is a vertical progression game. (e.g. in gw2 you can easily craft or outdoor pve a set that is as good as the dungeon and pvp sets stats wise,or any mixture of all 4)

If a 10.5 set comes with this new York raid it is definetly a vertical progression game. As it willhave expanded vertically just like all the EQ,/ wow clones.

vertical and horizontal progression refers to the game, not just the end-game.  I think any endgame will be vertical in some aspects.  Im talking about specific thing you can do in-game.  GW2's progression on all levels is vertical.  Their end-game is "non-exhistant"...not horizontal.

You wan't to see true horizontal end-game look no further than Age Of Conan's expansion which didn't increase levels, just increased difficulty.

You obviously didn't play GW1. The other chapters didn't increase your level either but did increase in difficulty. This is what A.Net did with GW1 and that was BEFORE Age of Conan - nice try.

I did play GW1 and most expansions.  You can start any expansion except for one at level 1, but you are right, they did provide horizontal progression....we were talkin bout GW2 though and I was certainly not talking about end-game horizontal nor did I ever claim that AOC was the first to impliment horizontal end-game....nice try to you sir....

Originally posted by Dzone

I mean this game has been out for 2 months and most ppl are at engame alrdy.Hardcore gamers have alrdy made full sets of exotic gear, caped several crafts, and prolly 100% map completion. I thought mmo's where about the journey getting to cap and once you reach cap new stuff whould open up for maxed players.

I'm more of a casually player myself, and i've alrdy reached lvl 80 and 70% map completion. In other mmo's i spent literally months just to reach level cap. This game i swear i broke my record for reaching cap and i wasn't even trying.

How is this game gona keep us playing if everything comes to ez and quick?

PS. MMO's like eq, wow, uo, ffxi, to name a few lasted years, how in the world will this game live up to thoughs if ppl run outa things to do. Those games you never ran outa things to do.

Apparently you're not casual enough. I'm at level 65 and at 37% map complete. Guess some of us are just not fast about it. I spend most of my time exploring, gathering and occasionally doing a DE if im in the immediate area.

People who rush thru to complete every nook, every cranny and tries to get to the end just astonish me. I enjoy finding those non-map exploration achievement specific areas like those caves and holes that have the mini vets in them that have chests with goodies.

To give you an example of just how slowly i play, i finally did the shatterer yesterday at level 61. :)

Originally posted by bcbully

Originally posted by ShakyMo
Bully, well you can repeat the whole gear grind twice again If you want heal, tank and dps gear (with pvp gear being a mix of tank and either of the other two) - well more if you want hit based,pen based,crit based etc..

Another flaw with tsw imo, as the gear dependancy in the game discourages experimentation with the skill wheel, you have to stay in a narrow set of builds that go with your gear.

I can agree with this. It makes you need extra sets. I think it was intended though. Purely for adding longevity. I really don't see how you could get around this unless someone made an mmorpg that's completely flat. I'm not aware of one if there is. It would be an interesting concept though. Progression through abilities alone.

Champions Online had a pretty true "pick a skill...any skill" setup, but it left things flat as bc said.  I always think there should be some limits because if not (at least with Champions) it becomes very dull and...flat

Originally posted by itgrowls

Originally posted by Dzone

I mean this game has been out for 2 months and most ppl are at engame alrdy.Hardcore gamers have alrdy made full sets of exotic gear, caped several crafts, and prolly 100% map completion. I thought mmo's where about the journey getting to cap and once you reach cap new stuff whould open up for maxed players.

I'm more of a casually player myself, and i've alrdy reached lvl 80 and 70% map completion. In other mmo's i spent literally months just to reach level cap. This game i swear i broke my record for reaching cap and i wasn't even trying.

How is this game gona keep us playing if everything comes to ez and quick?

PS. MMO's like eq, wow, uo, ffxi, to name a few lasted years, how in the world will this game live up to thoughs if ppl run outa things to do. Those games you never ran outa things to do.

Apparently you're not casual enough. I'm at level 65 and at 37% map complete. Guess some of us are just not fast about it. I spend most of my time exploring, gathering and occasionally doing a DE if im in the immediate area.

People who rush thru to complete every nook, every cranny and tries to get to the end just astonish me. I enjoy finding those non-map exploration achievement specific areas like those caves and holes that have the mini vets in them that have chests with goodies.

Yeah I'm not 80 either.

But I think we are not the norm here.  Most players, I believe, whom started at launch already have an 80 and/or have moved on.

Originally posted by Dzone

I mean this game has been out for 2 months and most ppl are at engame alrdy.Hardcore gamers have alrdy made full sets of exotic gear, caped several crafts, and prolly 100% map completion. I thought mmo's where about the journey getting to cap and once you reach cap new stuff whould open up for maxed players.

I'm more of a casually player myself, and i've alrdy reached lvl 80 and 70% map completion. In other mmo's i spent literally months just to reach level cap. This game i swear i broke my record for reaching cap and i wasn't even trying.

How is this game gona keep us playing if everything comes to ez and quick?

PS. MMO's like eq, wow, uo, ffxi, to name a few lasted years, how in the world will this game live up to thoughs if ppl run outa things to do. Those games you never ran outa things to do.

Please never include WoW in a list with EQ and UO.  They are not even in the same league.

WoW is what started the ez and quick leveling to cap and then starting to "Play the real end game".  

Have you done Dungeons in GW2, they are not quick and not easy unless you have a smart group.  It is normally to wipe in most dungeons a few times with PUGs.

Originally posted by Dzone

I mean this game has been out for 2 months and most ppl are at engame alrdy.Hardcore gamers have alrdy made full sets of exotic gear, caped several crafts, and prolly 100% map completion. I thought mmo's where about the journey getting to cap and once you reach cap new stuff whould open up for maxed players.

I'm more of a casually player myself, and i've alrdy reached lvl 80 and 70% map completion. In other mmo's i spent literally months just to reach level cap. This game i swear i broke my record for reaching cap and i wasn't even trying.

How is this game gona keep us playing if everything comes to ez and quick?

PS. MMO's like eq, wow, uo, ffxi, to name a few lasted years, how in the world will this game live up to thoughs if ppl run outa things to do. Those games you never ran outa things to do.

On the other hand...i´ve been playing since Headstart around 3-4 hours most days & my highest character is lvl 65 still......

It all depends in how you play & if you rush.........................

In all MMOS you get ppl hitting cap in 1...2...days.....

That doesn´t mean than they have seen or experienced all the content the game has to offer.

PS: You mentioned WoW lasting years...well i assure you you can level in WoW to cap in less than 1 month... just few days needed...