Originally posted by Tawn47

Anyone who tells you it is a 'fact' one way or the other..  that DE's are the same as PQs and Rifts or that they are very different, is showing their bias.  The only fact is that it can be argued either way and really just comes down to opinion.

Fact is that PQs (WAR) are nothing like DEs (GW2). The only similarity is that you don't have to group to do either. There's nothing dynamic at all in PQs, there's no variation if you succeed or fail, it's always at the same places, and no scaling depending on the number of participants.

As I said, then you may as well say it's a fact that apples are like oranges, because both are fruits and are round. Or saying a Traban is the same than a Ferrari just because both are cars. It's silly.

Originally posted by nationalcity

Originally posted by Wakygreek

The post comes off as troll bait no offense. But imo WARs PQ's and Rifts well RIFTS are very simmilar to GW2's DE system. You can argue it until your blue in the face but the sad fact is that DE's have been done before. The system itself has been around for a while, it just wasn't called DEs. DE's are just a glorified version of WAR's PQs.

TY, but it seems many like to see through rose colored goggles when it comes to this game any criticism just doesn't cut it when were talking about the second coming.....

"Any criticism" and j"ust like WAR and Rift" are not the same thing.

Sure, there are things GW2 doesnt do as well as it should but the game have replaced 90% of the quests with DEs (and the rest with HQs and personal story but thye are far closer to quests). WAR and Rift still leads you through quests from hub to hub just like Wow or any other MMO. In GW2 you ignore that and go out and explore.

You dont have to like it, many people do love to be told what to do, and it is not a sandbox or anything but that doesnt mean it is the same thing as regular quests even if you in a DE do a lot similar things.

DEs have been done before. DEs to replace quests have not.

Originally posted by Thillian

Nonsense, Tabula Rasa was first in 2007 with its system of --- Dynamic Battlefields. Why is noone mentioning Tabula Rasa, which created the so-called Dynamic Events system. Dynamic Battlefields in Tabula Rasa had more consequences than DEs in GW2 - could lose base with quests, vendors and spawn points. Tabula Rasa was also the first game in which you didn't need to be grouped to get a credit for killing "quest" monster.

This was indeed closer to what we have in GW2 than anything done in WAR or Rift. And about consequences - in Orr, there are many spots you can lose including vendors and waypoint. You have those spots in all the other zones, but more sparsely, while in Orr it becomes a main feature.

WAR was just a joke, and rifts are just glorified mob spawners. GW2 and also indeed TR beat the crap out of those two games concerning events.

Originally posted by Torgrim
Sad really, the ones I'm asking in my OP don't want to respond to my questions :(

Of course they don't because in the cold light of day, the multitudinous claims that GW2 is a '[insert MMO name] clone', or that [insert game feature name] has all been 'done before' are just that - claims.

They are significantly harder to support with credible evidence than to merely type into a forum post.

To put it in poker terms - your 'call' has exposed their collective 'bluff', because their 'hands' are as empty as their 'arguements'....

Bravo!

The GW2 experience is definitely fresh and feels liberating, no denying that. There's a certain appeal to being able to move around the world at your own pace, in the direction you desire.

Undisputable.

The majority of vitriol directed at GW2s "originality" stems from fans claiming it has all these new features - while it clearly doesn't - not the fact that GW2 puts these features togeter in an interesting way and in ratios that weren't done before (much more "dynamic" content in relation to static content).

What you end up with is one side arguing a point the other isn't even touching. A well put together game can still have completely unoriginal parts in it.

It's like Lego. It's all bricks we've seen before, but what you build with them is up to your imagination.

P.S.: I think my post history reflects that I'm not a GW2 fanboy, in fact, quite the opposite. But credit where credit is due, etc.

Originally posted by Torgrim

Originally posted by Wakygreek

Originally posted by Torgrim
Sad really, the ones I'm asking in my OP don't want to respond to my questions :(

The post comes off as troll bait no offense. But imo WARs PQ's and Rifts well RIFTS are very simmilar to GW2's DE system. You can argue it until your blue in the face but the sad fact is that DE's have been done before. The system itself has been around for a while, it just wasn't called DEs. DE's are just a glorified version of WAR's PQs.

 

Besides having an argument it has been done before can you name a game that is excactly like GW2?

I bet you are that old guy who tries the holodeck 50 years from now and only see...."hey I'm kiling goblins, that's nothing new I did that 50 years ago "

 

no offense  but through your talking and through your post you are only encouraging people to troll 

Originally posted by Caliburn101

Originally posted by Torgrim
Sad really, the ones I'm asking in my OP don't want to respond to my questions :(

Of course they don't because in the cold light of day, the multitudinous claims that GW2 is a '[insert MMO name] clone', or that [insert game feature name] has all been 'done before' are just that - claims.

They are significantly harder to support with credible evidence than to merely type into a forum post.

To put it in poker terms - your 'call' has exposed their collective 'bluff', because their 'hands' are as empty as their 'arguements'....

Bravo!

Agreed lol.

Peace.

GW2 doesn't replace quest hubs, just unfies them and puts an area marker for completion instead of specific quest NPCs. They also request much more than what you'd ask for a single quest but since they are unified, they use the OR argument instead of the AND.

So, instead of having three quest, one to kill 10 wolves, one to repair 5 equipment and one to protect workers from 10 attacks, you get to either kill 20 wolves, or repair 5 equipment or protect 20 workers or any combination that will fill a completion bar.

Personally I like this approach to regular questing better, but with some improvement pointers.

• Stepping foot into a territory and get a list of stuff to do feels less natural than walking in front of 3 NPCs that they ask for you something. It would have been a lot better if they approached this in the way they announce some of the DE, ie with an NPC that runs to the player and asks for help.
• Backtracking to the questgiver NPC is not a bad thing. Really, it isn't. It is a lost opportunity though from Anet, to show that there was some  change, some improvement made to the environment and the NPCs that the hearts affected (even temporary). Right now you complete, get the reward and just take off.
• Not all hearts give a choice of stuff to do, a lot request just one thing, just like regular quests.

Originally posted by Torgrim

Originally posted by Wakygreek

Originally posted by Torgrim
Sad really, the ones I'm asking in my OP don't want to respond to my questions :(

The post comes off as troll bait no offense. But imo WARs PQ's and Rifts well RIFTS are very simmilar to GW2's DE system. You can argue it until your blue in the face but the sad fact is that DE's have been done before. The system itself has been around for a while, it just wasn't called DEs. DE's are just a glorified version of WAR's PQs.

 

Besides having an argument it has been done before can you name a game that is excactly like GW2?

I bet you are that old guy who tries the holodeck 50 years from now and only see...."hey I'm kiling goblins, that's nothing new I did that 50 years ago "

 

Can you show us where people have been saying that there are other MMOS which are exactly like GW2? only because concept of DE's existed and have been done first or earlier doesn't mean it is 'exactly' the same. That is your own interpretation of it.

Originally posted by The_Korrigan

Originally posted by Thillian

Nonsense, Tabula Rasa was first in 2007 with its system of --- Dynamic Battlefields. Why is noone mentioning Tabula Rasa, which created the so-called Dynamic Events system. Dynamic Battlefields in Tabula Rasa had more consequences than DEs in GW2 - could lose base with quests, vendors and spawn points. Tabula Rasa was also the first game in which you didn't need to be grouped to get a credit for killing "quest" monster.

This was indeed closer to what we have in GW2 than anything done in WAR or Rift. And about consequences - in Orr, there are many spots you can lose including vendors and waypoint. You have those spots in all the other zones, but more sparsely, while in Orr it becomes a main feature.

WAR was just a joke, and rifts are just glorified mob spawners. GW2 and also indeed TR beat the crap out of those two games concerning events.

You can also lose access to the dungeon of Arah in Orr, if you don't repel the invading risen you have to start a whole new chain of events to reclaim the area.

To the OP many of the things in GW2 have been done before in some form or another, it's just that GW2 improves on these things and puts them together in a way that makes the game feel new and a lot fresher. I personaly love how I set out to do something and wind up getting caught up in something completely different, sometimes I get side tracked so much I forget what it was I set out to do. I'm completely immersed in the game world when I'm playing and I'm having a great time playing the game.

Originally posted by Torgrim

I still having fun in the game, I'm quite surprised myself, I'm a so called a MMO jumper, try out the new games having fun for 2-3 weeks and rarely sub for the second month.

With GW2 is a whole new story  I'm still playing and having fun, I play as much as I would a sub game so if this would have been a sub game I would be happy to pay another month heck a 3 month sub straight up.

I find the game refreshing and breeze of fresh air It might have to do I don't have to follow a narrow path from quest hub to quest inorder to trigger the next clump of quests.

I understand all you who didn't liked the game and no I won't write you play it wrong but what I would like to know why some write that GW2 is excactly like the rest of the lot, I've read several people writing that DE been done before so It's nothing new.

Can you please direct me to that game beacuse I have played most major MMO since UO and I have never seen a game that have GW2 type of DE and no WAR is not the same thing.

My point with this topic is besides having a lot of fun is, where is that game that is excactly like GW2, I would really want to know, plenty of people seems to know it they always write that GW2 is same old same old and still I find GW2 a completly new MMO experince.

You all take care now and don't forget a beer here and there is always nice.

 

Im in the same player set as you and feeling the same way about GW2. I have times I get tired of the what Im doing but I just put another of my alts into play with a different profession and its like new :). This game would be a keeper in the subscritpion area but Im still glad it stuck with the original GW pay for the box model. It is new and a totally different direction and I think that is the problem most have. There is also the fact that the game is still very new and there will be new and intersting things around the corner to be sure.

Originally posted by Xasapis

GW2 doesn't replace quest hubs, just unfies them and puts an area marker for completion instead of specific quest NPCs. They also request much more than what you'd ask for a single quest but since they are unified, they use the OR argument instead of the AND.

So, instead of having three quest, one to kill 10 wolves, one to repair 5 equipment and one to protect workers from 10 attacks, you get to either kill 20 wolves, or repair 5 equipment or protect 20 workers or any combination that will fill a completion bar.

Personally I like this approach to regular questing better, but with some improvement pointers.

• Stepping foot into a territory and get a list of stuff to do feels less natural than walking in front of 3 NPCs that they ask for you something. It would have been a lot better if they approached this in the way they announce some of the DE, ie with an NPC that runs to the player and asks for help.
• Backtracking to the questgiver NPC is not a bad thing. Really, it isn't. It is a lost opportunity though from Anet, to show that there was some  change, some improvement made to the environment and the NPCs that the hearts affected (even temporary). Right now you complete, get the reward and just take off.
• Not all hearts give a choice of stuff to do, a lot request just one thing, just like regular quests.

In the end you do the exact same stuff you'd do with hub questing. The only (and perhaps major) difference is that you get to choose how you compete them. This freedom is what amounts as improvement in my book, not the actual quests themselves.

This does happen. But not everyone takes notice of it, or they may be out of range when someone else triggers the event. I should know, it's what I walk around doing :p Talking to NPCs and shizzle.

Originally posted by NBlitz

Originally posted by Xasapis

GW2 doesn't replace quest hubs, just unfies them and puts an area marker for completion instead of specific quest NPCs. They also request much more than what you'd ask for a single quest but since they are unified, they use the OR argument instead of the AND.

So, instead of having three quest, one to kill 10 wolves, one to repair 5 equipment and one to protect workers from 10 attacks, you get to either kill 20 wolves, or repair 5 equipment or protect 20 workers or any combination that will fill a completion bar.

Personally I like this approach to regular questing better, but with some improvement pointers.

• Stepping foot into a territory and get a list of stuff to do feels less natural than walking in front of 3 NPCs that they ask for you something. It would have been a lot better if they approached this in the way they announce some of the DE, ie with an NPC that runs to the player and asks for help.
• Backtracking to the questgiver NPC is not a bad thing. Really, it isn't. It is a lost opportunity though from Anet, to show that there was some  change, some improvement made to the environment and the NPCs that the hearts affected (even temporary). Right now you complete, get the reward and just take off.
• Not all hearts give a choice of stuff to do, a lot request just one thing, just like regular quests.

In the end you do the exact same stuff you'd do with hub questing. The only (and perhaps major) difference is that you get to choose how you compete them. This freedom is what amounts as improvement in my book, not the actual quests themselves.

This does happen. But not everyone takes notice of it, or they may be out of range when someone else triggers the event. I should know, it's what I walk around doing :p Talking to NPCs and shizzle.

 

Yeah a lot of people fail to realize that part. Very often what seems to an individual to be a DE just randomly starting up is actually due to another player interacting with an NPC asking for help, or triggering it in some other way. You dont need to be the one to talk an NPC to take part in the DE though, and with the large number of people unaware of NPC interaction even existing that I see int he forums and in game, Im not surprised they feel like things "just happen" without any player interaction just because they didnt do it themselves.

As far Xasapis' 2nd and 3rd points:

-  You dont need to talk to the NPCs to get your reward for completing the heart, but there is a purpose to going back to them. After completing a heart, the NPC sells you equipment, recipes, and other stuff for karma. Not going back to the NPC menas youre missing out on the chance to get some of those "rewards" that you may not be able to get anywhere else in the game.

- I can't recall a single heart that only has 1 task you can do to complete it aside from maybe a few that generalize the task with something simple like "Help clear the area of threats" or something along those lines but actually allowing you to kill various types of mobs and destroy various objects to complete that goal. A few also offer things like 1 task, such as killing enemies, but a variety of ways to do it such as the use of siege weaponry or the option of normal killing.

Originally posted by The_Korrigan

Originally posted by Thillian

Nonsense, Tabula Rasa was first in 2007 with its system of --- Dynamic Battlefields. Why is noone mentioning Tabula Rasa, which created the so-called Dynamic Events system. Dynamic Battlefields in Tabula Rasa had more consequences than DEs in GW2 - could lose base with quests, vendors and spawn points. Tabula Rasa was also the first game in which you didn't need to be grouped to get a credit for killing "quest" monster.

This was indeed closer to what we have in GW2 than anything done in WAR or Rift. And about consequences - in Orr, there are many spots you can lose including vendors and waypoint. You have those spots in all the other zones, but more sparsely, while in Orr it becomes a main feature.

WAR was just a joke, and rifts are just glorified mob spawners. GW2 and also indeed TR beat the crap out of those two games concerning events.

I will agree entirely with your assessment that DEs and Rifts and PQs are all very different on the face of it, but I think the problem is that they do not *feel* different to many people, myself included. Knowing they are different does not make repelling the 30th Sons of Svanir raid any less boring that closing the 30th fire Rift. Yes, it is more in tune with the world around it, but to me they do not feel less repetitive that Rifts. Between Dredge and Sons of Svanir, that seems like the vast majority of my DE opponents since I started my Norn, and they are just as stale and repetitive as anything I experienced in Rift.

And to me, that is the problem. They do not really feel particularly dynamic. I have yet to even see a DE fail, I am sure they have, but not in my presence, and perhaps that is why they do not feel dynamic. Fight waves of mobs, collect eggs/armor bits/some other thing, defend somewhile while they travel/complete ritual/etc. etc.

Yes, different from Rifts...but just not great, imo.

To the OP, there are no games exactly like GW2 of course, but then every game has unique characteristics, and I am glad you are enjoying GW2 so much. I am too, actually, but I do not feel like I am playing anything new, and in some cases I do not feel like I am playing a better game than others. Unless the expansions come out quicker than I expect, I suspect I will join the rest of my guild (who have more or less all quit already) in a month or so. 

Well, besides the obvious baiting in the OP, IMA risk it.

*points to an empty chair representing the absent GW2

"I've played dynamic games, and you, sir, are no WAR!"

Wait, that might be one too many political memes in one place.

Sorry, OP. The DEs, while fun, are only a minor evolution of what WAR and RIFT did.

Originally posted by Torgrim
Sad really, the ones I'm asking in my OP don't want to respond to my questions :(

Asked a leading question and no one responded?  All that composition work, wasted.

Originally posted by Wakygreek

Originally posted by Torgrim
Sad really, the ones I'm asking in my OP don't want to respond to my questions :(

The post comes off as troll bait no offense. But imo WARs PQ's and Rifts well RIFTS are very simmilar to GW2's DE system. You can argue it until your blue in the face but the sad fact is that DE's have been done before. The system itself has been around for a while, it just wasn't called DEs. DE's are just a glorified version of WAR's PQs.

 

EDIT: I will however agree that the way the leveling system works in GW2 is unique and fun, at least I enjoy it. The skill system is pretty unique too but bothers me to no end that 90% of my skills are unlocked by level 15

Which will be the downfall of this game.

One of the glaring issues with WAR's PQ's, RIFT's rifts and now GW2's DE's is that you need a minimum amount of players to be able to complete it.

The lower level zones will start to become underpopulated sooner than later. I already noticed it in the last days before I stopped playing this game and that was already almost a  month go.

And then what?  A lot of the Heart events are not soloable either due to mob densities. And with no quests in this game, how are people going to level up later on?

At least in RIFT and WAR you still had traditional quests to level up your character and continue on progression.

Guild Wars 2 solely relies on Hearts and DE's!

You can't expect to force people to craft and PVP to get enough XP to move on. Especially when PVP is already dominated by fully geared lvl80's. /shrug

Originally posted by Torgrim

I still having fun in the game, I'm quite surprised myself, I'm a so called a MMO jumper, try out the new games having fun for 2-3 weeks and rarely sub for the second month.

With GW2 is a whole new story  I'm still playing and having fun, I play as much as I would a sub game so if this would have been a sub game I would be happy to pay another month heck a 3 month sub straight up.

I find the game refreshing and breeze of fresh air It might have to do I don't have to follow a narrow path from quest hub to quest inorder to trigger the next clump of quests.

I understand all you who didn't liked the game and no I won't write you play it wrong but what I would like to know why some write that GW2 is excactly like the rest of the lot, I've read several people writing that DE been done before so It's nothing new.

Can you please direct me to that game beacuse I have played most major MMO since UO and I have never seen a game that have GW2 type of DE and no WAR is not the same thing.

My point with this topic is besides having a lot of fun is, where is that game that is excactly like GW2, I would really want to know, plenty of people seems to know it they always write that GW2 is same old same old and still I find GW2 a completly new MMO experince.

You all take care now and don't forget a beer here and there is always nice.

 

Whats your previous MMO Experience? Longest MMO you have played and for how long? What is your shortest lived MMO and how short? Give something to compare to so I know how credible your words are. 

Originally posted by JeroKane

Originally posted by Wakygreek

Originally posted by Torgrim
Sad really, the ones I'm asking in my OP don't want to respond to my questions :(

The post comes off as troll bait no offense. But imo WARs PQ's and Rifts well RIFTS are very simmilar to GW2's DE system. You can argue it until your blue in the face but the sad fact is that DE's have been done before. The system itself has been around for a while, it just wasn't called DEs. DE's are just a glorified version of WAR's PQs.

 

EDIT: I will however agree that the way the leveling system works in GW2 is unique and fun, at least I enjoy it. The skill system is pretty unique too but bothers me to no end that 90% of my skills are unlocked by level 15

Which will be the downfall of this game.

One of the glaring issues with WAR's PQ's, RIFT's rifts and now GW2's DE's is that you need a minimum amount of players to be able to complete it.

The lower level zones will start to become underpopulated sooner than later. I already noticed it in the last days before I stopped playing this game and that was already almost a  month go.

And then what?  A lot of the Heart events are not soloable either due to mob densities. And with no quests in this game, how are people going to level up later on?

At least in RIFT and WAR you still had traditional quests to level up your character and continue on progression.

Guild Wars 2 solely relies on Hearts and DE's!

You can't expect to force people to craft and PVP to get enough XP to move on. Especially when PVP is already dominated by fully geared lvl80's. /shrug

Don't worry, Anet has you covered. Each zone down levels you, what this means is all those people looking to get 100% map completion are going to be coming to your lower level areas to help you out and they can't simply steam roll it so they'll need your help. Aside from that they made each race and their story different enough that many are going to and already are rolling alts. 

While I agree it was an issue in War and Rift, the reality is here you don't have to worry about that lol. 

DE's also aren't the only way to level. Granted you tried to discount crafting and PvP already but I'll be generous and takes those out of the equation. 

Leveling up is easy and most of the DE's in the lower areas you are reffering to actually tend to have multiple ways to complete. Not only that but if you help out in a DE and fail due to not enough people and etc. you still see it end and you still get a reward. Killing mobs tends to be the most effective way of leveling though believe it or not. On top of all this you also have the ability to go back to lower level areas and still recieve rewards, exp, and level appropriate loot. 

I thank you for showing concern for our community but it's not needed. I recomend you play and check it out. Looking at things on paper and saying oh thats it, it's going to fail isn't the same as experiencing the mechanics and such. Experiencing them will quickly show you why you are incorrect in your assumptions.