Originally posted by strangiato2112

Originally posted by Arkain

 

Answer to 1:

You can understand why I do not trust you in that, don't you?

If you are, you are breaking NDA and that would make you dishonest, and if you are not, then you are lying with what you are inferring. 

Or maybe I just know someone in the beta who broke the NDA to me and I am relaying information?  Or Ive found information on another forum?  Hmm, maybe there are more possibilities than you think there are.

Now you have made what you are saying, just hear-say.

Hear-say does not hold up in cort do to the hear-sayers lack of any true experience on the issue.

Who I did not think you could out do the possible NDA break, but here it is,.....kudos...I gess?

and it is on another form.....(you know what I'm goto say) link please 

(By the by with this one you have painted a very nice circle, good job )

Answer to 2:

The game has made money, enugh not to go free to play, and to get an ex-pack. 

But not enough to do so without microtransactions (which, for the record, i have absolutely no issues with their mount sales because the money is going back into development)

You do not know that, by that logic nether did World of Warcraft (they have a mount and pet shop as well).

A to 3:

Vanguard is the best of the 3 games, its the one that could net them the most

The first part is an opinion i disagree with, the second part is laughable.  VG just has far too many issues and would require substantial investment, and there is no proof there is a market for it.  In fact, there is strong indication otherwise.

Yes it is opinion, mine and others, just like your opinion of EQ's bug, others would disagree with you on that

A to 4:

At this point in EQ's life it had no competition, so that does not mater nor does it compaire to RIFT.

Of course it had competition.  UO and AC were both popular and very well respected, and DAoC was on the horizon.  It was also a new genre so it didnt have the benefit of a large player base to draw from like Rift does.

At that time EQ was the big dog, UO had been handed it's backside by EQ;  AC was limited by only humans;

DAoC was the most not out yet, so no point for that, if not out yet no players have left EQ for it.

At this point in EQ2's life it was getting its backside handed to itself by, of all things World of Warcraft, It was supposed to be the successor insteed it was beat down by Orcs vs. Humans.

And 8 years later, Rift is getting its backside handed to it by the same game.

Yes, not as badly as EQ did, you see EQ was the big dog at the time and the little dog tore it up so bad it never recovered.

RIFT only got a little hirt, why you may ask, becouse is was the small dog os it could only gain at that time,

To have any players at all would be a victory, and not to go FTP another victory, And to released an ex-pack another victory. 

A to 5:

If you are going to copy something, you copy the leader.

Thats what WoW did, it took the best of EQ, and improved on it. That got them up to 14 mil paying players.

WoW and EQ only share genre similarities.  the games are almost nothing alie outside of that.  The core philosopies were drastically different.  one was a time consuming, group centric game, the other was meant to be able to accomplish things in short bursts of play.  One was strctly PvE, the other was designed to incorporate both aspects of play.  Some of the early raid philosophies were similar, but outside of that and the fact the games have levels they arent similar at all.

WoW was very voical about copying EQ, both had PvP (in EQ you hade to do a qest to get it, please see "Priest of Discord" .

Both were PvE centric group based games, best gear in WoW, please see raids.

Only the lore and art style is diffrent, due to Orcs vs. Humans using Warhammer models.

A to 6:

WoW, you got me a link, after I gave you so meany. 

Not quite a lie, that may have been thier plain at the time, they may have been looking at a FTP done the same as EQ2.

Good but you can do better then that, can't you?

EQ lied about having 5 enormous contients when there was only 2 and an island, and this was on the box!

So find something that maches this in scope from Trion,

Can you?

you have some time to fine it, I'm going to get some sleep.

I already did.  Just because you want to live in denial doesnt change the fact.

And becouse you cannot produce any facts that go outside of this site make what you state as "truth and fact" less then believable.

You say that I am in denial, but seeing as you truthfulness seems a bit tarnished, I will take that to mean that I see things as they really are, so thank you. 

 

By the way, this has been a really good debate, so thank you. 

 

I am back.

Not going to waste time arguing with someone that is referring to a blizzard game as the 'little dog'.  I guess SWTOR and Guild Wars 2 are little dogs because it is their company's first MMORPG?

Originally posted by strangiato2112

Not going to waste time arguing with someone that is referring to a blizzard game as the 'little dog'.  I guess SWTOR and Guild Wars 2 are little dogs because it is their company's first MMORPG?

 

 

I guess Guild Wars never existed. Who knew?

Originally posted by f0dell54

Originally posted by strangiato2112

Not going to waste time arguing with someone that is referring to a blizzard game as the 'little dog'.  I guess SWTOR and Guild Wars 2 are little dogs because it is their company's first MMORPG?

 

 

I guess Guild Wars never existed. Who knew?

LoL

I guss I should remove GW from my list of games I bata tested, lol wow 

Originally posted by abyss404

I think part of this can be laid upong general gameplay similarities to it's predecessor. Despite mechanical differences in leveling, and classes... the combat and such itself is basically WoW. People already have WoW, so in the end they'd rather stick with what they're used to.

 

Rift is a great game, and Trion is a fantastic company but at the end of the day the similarities to WoW are too glaring for many people.

Rift is a good game but it's too clonish to WoW, so why play it when you can play WoW where you already have your chars, your money, your community etc. Myself I just couldn't play another gear grinding game after I quit WoW, so Rift was definately not the game for me to play.

Originally posted by Tayah

Originally posted by abyss404

I think part of this can be laid upong general gameplay similarities to it's predecessor. Despite mechanical differences in leveling, and classes... the combat and such itself is basically WoW. People already have WoW, so in the end they'd rather stick with what they're used to.

 

Rift is a great game, and Trion is a fantastic company but at the end of the day the similarities to WoW are too glaring for many people.

Rift is a good game but it's too clonish to WoW, so why play it when you can play WoW where you already have your chars, your money, your community etc. Myself I just couldn't play another gear grinding game after I quit WoW, so Rift was definately not the game for me to play.

Rift was implemented as a WoW clone. But I think that Trion has seen that error. Obviously, there wasn't much they could do with the overal structure to the game. But in patch after patch, their content and additions to the game continue to take it down it's own path. There are so many things now that aren't just like WoW. Fishing and cooking not withstanding. LOL.

But even now, if you want the ability to theorycraft talent builds, You can no longer do that in WoW. Rift's Soul system is pretty much it for class and talent building. 

I can only hope that Storm Legion really takes Rift into it's own.

population seems fine on Faeblight but it is one of the more populated servers. If you are just going to go out and quest though your levels then yeah it will seem pretty sparse. Even so, I have skill been running into people out in the wild in the low 40s areas. But if you want to see activity that is more like how the rift events were at release then you need to pick up the instant adventures. lots of people running around together doing shared quests. So Trion seems to be doing reasonably well at finding ways to bring people together.

Also with the new carnage quests coming out there will be a lot more picking up quests as you go rather than getting all of them from a hub. Instant adventures combined with carnage quests and rifs seem like they will be a great way to level. at least from 50 - 60.

Ultimately I think it comes down to taste. If you like a game that is more wow like but you want something newer and frankly better than wow then Rift is a great choice. If you want something that is much further out from the norm design wise then GW2 is probably the better choices. Choosing which will also heavily depend on if you like the combat style of GW2 and how you feel about defined roles like healing and tanking. Both are high quality games (assuming that broken DE will get fixed sooner than later) so it really just depends on how you want your game stuctured.

Originally posted by Arkain

Originally posted by f0dell54

Originally posted by strangiato2112

Not going to waste time arguing with someone that is referring to a blizzard game as the 'little dog'.  I guess SWTOR and Guild Wars 2 are little dogs because it is their company's first MMORPG?

 

 

I guess Guild Wars never existed. Who knew?

LoL

I guss I should remove GW from my list of games I bata tested, lol wow 

Guild Wars is not a MMORPG.  Its a co-op game with lobbies.  

Originally posted by GeezerGamer

Originally posted by Tayah

Originally posted by abyss404

I think part of this can be laid upong general gameplay similarities to it's predecessor. Despite mechanical differences in leveling, and classes... the combat and such itself is basically WoW. People already have WoW, so in the end they'd rather stick with what they're used to.

 

Rift is a great game, and Trion is a fantastic company but at the end of the day the similarities to WoW are too glaring for many people.

Rift is a good game but it's too clonish to WoW, so why play it when you can play WoW where you already have your chars, your money, your community etc. Myself I just couldn't play another gear grinding game after I quit WoW, so Rift was definately not the game for me to play.

Rift was implemented as a WoW clone. But I think that Trion has seen that error. Obviously, there wasn't much they could do with the overal structure to the game. But in patch after patch, their content and additions to the game continue to take it down it's own path. There are so many things now that aren't just like WoW. Fishing and cooking not withstanding. LOL.

But even now, if you want the ability to theorycraft talent builds, You can no longer do that in WoW. Rift's Soul system is pretty much it for class and talent building. 

I can only hope that Storm Legion really takes Rift into it's own.

Definitely been adding much more eq2 than WoW lately.  mentoring, in depth outdoors housing, alternate advancement system, etc etc.  End game though is still far too WoWish at its core though, hopefully they can figure out a good way to deviate from it.

Storm Legion looks like its taking the soul system to what it should have been at launch.  Things like no melee mage stuck out like a sore thumb, and the trees themselves are far more interesting now.  Im impressed.

Originally posted by Tayah

Originally posted by abyss404

I think part of this can be laid upong general gameplay similarities to it's predecessor. Despite mechanical differences in leveling, and classes... the combat and such itself is basically WoW. People already have WoW, so in the end they'd rather stick with what they're used to.

 

Rift is a great game, and Trion is a fantastic company but at the end of the day the similarities to WoW are too glaring for many people.

Rift is a good game but it's too clonish to WoW, so why play it when you can play WoW where you already have your chars, your money, your community etc. Myself I just couldn't play another gear grinding game after I quit WoW, so Rift was definately not the game for me to play.

I think Rift is the only wow clone to actually succeed at delivering a superior game to its parent. Many wow fans will stick with wow because they know it and are comfortable or because of friend or because they have so much time and effort invested and have cool titles or mounts. But I think Rift draws a lot of serious raid gamers because it actually delivers a comperable raid game. And one that is really very challenging. Most raiding guilds still have not completed Infernal Dawn. Some even still struggle with Akylios in HK. Combine a very good and challenging raiding endgame with lots of not raid ways to spend your endgame time or leveling time and you have a great game. They basically played the cards that Bilzzard did back when. That is they took  the best ideas from a score of games and brought them together in a very polished package. This is why I think Rift is doing well and growning even if growing slowly. It is simply a really good game, if you like the overall wow model.

In the end I think WoW is representative of a third generation of MMOs. UO, starting the first and EQ starting the second. I think SWTOR will be seen some day as the last of the third gen MMOs and much of what forced a transition. GW2 I think will be seen as a 4th gen mmo, given its size it might be seen as defining the begining of 4th gen MMOs. Not because it is the best thing since sliced bread but just because it is genuinely taking off in a different direction. But generations never have clear boundaries. You always see transitional members in a population that seem to fit into both generations or somewhere in between. I think Rift is one of those transitional members. Very clearly at its core, hub based questing is still very foundational. But it has also been a part of helping to define what dynamic content means in this industry. Rift also has so many unusual features, chronicles, onslaughts, carnages, IAs, that it is really hard to define where they are. Rift is at least as much 4th gen as it is 3rd. But I don't think Rift will be seen as defining next gen MMOs. That will take a bigger kid.  But you can never see a generational shift as you are going though it so who knows how these years will be viewed 5 or 10 years from now.

Originally posted by strangiato2112

Originally posted by Arkain

Originally posted by f0dell54

Originally posted by strangiato2112

Not going to waste time arguing with someone that is referring to a blizzard game as the 'little dog'.  I guess SWTOR and Guild Wars 2 are little dogs because it is their company's first MMORPG?

 

 

I guess Guild Wars never existed. Who knew?

LoL

I guss I should remove GW from my list of games I bata tested, lol wow 

Guild Wars is not a MMORPG.  Its a co-op game with lobbies.  

It was a "Massive Multiplayer" even if it was a lobby, and it was "Online" and you did build a character for the "Role Playing Game" part,

so yes technically he is right, even if it did not match our view of what a MMORPG should be. 

wow a drink for me, I helped myself with that one 

Trion does really good work with RIFT and their next two games hold alot of promise.

If they treat them as well as RIFT, I will hope for some sort of station pass.

Originally posted by VikingGamer

Originally posted by Tayah

Originally posted by abyss404

I think part of this can be laid upong general gameplay similarities to it's predecessor. Despite mechanical differences in leveling, and classes... the combat and such itself is basically WoW. People already have WoW, so in the end they'd rather stick with what they're used to.

 

Rift is a great game, and Trion is a fantastic company but at the end of the day the similarities to WoW are too glaring for many people.

Rift is a good game but it's too clonish to WoW, so why play it when you can play WoW where you already have your chars, your money, your community etc. Myself I just couldn't play another gear grinding game after I quit WoW, so Rift was definately not the game for me to play.

I think Rift is the only wow clone to actually succeed at delivering a superior game to its parent. Many wow fans will stick with wow because they know it and are comfortable or because of friend or because they have so much time and effort invested and have cool titles or mounts. But I think Rift draws a lot of serious raid gamers because it actually delivers a comperable raid game. And one that is really very challenging. Most raiding guilds still have not completed Infernal Dawn. Some even still struggle with Akylios in HK. Combine a very good and challenging raiding endgame with lots of not raid ways to spend your endgame time or leveling time and you have a great game. They basically played the cards that Bilzzard did back when. That is they took  the best ideas from a score of games and brought them together in a very polished package. This is why I think Rift is doing well and growning even if growing slowly. It is simply a really good game, if you like the overall wow model.

In the end I think WoW is representative of a third generation of MMOs. UO, starting the first and EQ starting the second. I think SWTOR will be seen some day as the last of the third gen MMOs and much of what forced a transition. GW2 I think will be seen as a 4th gen mmo, given its size it might be seen as defining the begining of 4th gen MMOs. Not because it is the best thing since sliced bread but just because it is genuinely taking off in a different direction. But generations never have clear boundaries. You always see transitional members in a population that seem to fit into both generations or somewhere in between. I think Rift is one of those transitional members. Very clearly at its core, hub based questing is still very foundational. But it has also been a part of helping to define what dynamic content means in this industry. Rift also has so many unusual features, chronicles, onslaughts, carnages, IAs, that it is really hard to define where they are. Rift is at least as much 4th gen as it is 3rd. But I don't think Rift will be seen as defining next gen MMOs. That will take a bigger kid.  But you can never see a generational shift as you are going though it so who knows how these years will be viewed 5 or 10 years from now.

I am not so sure I would call the games as 3rd and 4th gen as you say. The reason I say this is because there was a transition that began in 07 and was realized in 08. It was this transition where Themeparks changed. As well as no reall decent sandboxes, but realy, what I am talking about started with WoW late in TBC and was fully realizd in Wrath. But not immidiately in Wrath. Basically, Themeparks traded detailed and involved Metagaming and slow leveling for rapid leveling and game crippling gear progressions.

Prior to Patch 2.3, WoW end game gear levels started at lvl 115 and went through to 125.

After 2.3 - Gear went from 125 to 164

Then once Wrath was released the item levels picked up again at 200 and finally ended at 284

The worst of it was that the gear progression was so far out of control that the early 25man raid rewards were outclassed by    5 man heroic dungeon rewards. Naxx25 gear was lvl 213. ToC came in and released lvl 219 gear. This trend repeats again too.

From 2007 through 2009, the MMO changed. I'd say that if we were going to break games out between 2nd and 3rd gen or even 4th gen, which I don't know that a 4th gen exists. I'd say that WoW itself transitioned from one to the next in that period.

The reason I say GW2 is not a next gen game is because it has it's roots in WoW as much as Rift and SWTOR do. ANET used WoW as the foundation. The difference is that instead of making a better wow, they used WoW and said, OK, here's what not to do. But in the end, It's still based on WoW and is desigend to appeal to a certain type of WoW player. It certainly is not it's own game from the ground up. And it still falls into the same category as Later WoW. No Metagame, Fast, easy leveling and rapid easy gear aquisition though 80, (It's still gear progression. It's smaller in scale and highly cosmetic in nature, but it's there)

Originally posted by GeezerGamer

I am not so sure I would call the games as 3rd and 4th gen as you say. The reason I say this is because there was a transition that began in 07 and was realized in 08. It was this transition where Themeparks changed. As well as no reall decent sandboxes, but realy, what I am talking about started with WoW late in TBC and was fully realizd in Wrath. But not immidiately in Wrath. Basically, Themeparks traded detailed and involved Metagaming and slow leveling for rapid leveling and game crippling gear progressions.

Prior to Patch 2.3, WoW end game gear levels started at lvl 115 and went through to 125.

After 2.3 - Gear went from 125 to 164

Then once Wrath was released the item levels picked up again at 200 and finally ended at 284

The worst of it was that the gear progression was so far out of control that the early 25man raid rewards were outclassed by    5 man heroic dungeon rewards. Naxx25 gear was lvl 213. ToC came in and released lvl 219 gear. This trend repeats again too.

From 2007 through 2009, the MMO changed. I'd say that if we were going to break games out between 2nd and 3rd gen or even 4th gen, which I don't know that a 4th gen exists. I'd say that WoW itself transitioned from one to the next in that period.

The reason I say GW2 is not a next gen game is because it has it's roots in WoW as much as Rift and SWTOR do. ANET used WoW as the foundation. The difference is that instead of making a better wow, they used WoW and said, OK, here's what not to do. But in the end, It's still based on WoW and is desigend to appeal to a certain type of WoW player. It certainly is not it's own game from the ground up. And it still falls into the same category as Later WoW. No Metagame, Fast, easy leveling and rapid easy gear aquisition though 80, (It's still gear progression. It's smaller in scale and highly cosmetic in nature, but it's there)

The absolute worst patch in WoW history was the trial of the crusader. They were coming off Ulduar, one of the best raid instances ever in any game (for Rifters who havent played it, it was even more epic-and challenging-than Hammerknell).  And then came along ToC, which brough with it dungeons that outgeared Naxx and an easy raid instance that triviliazed the gear to the much better designed, and more challenging Ulduar.  Why bother spending time in Ulduar when the gear in ToC was better?  Easier content should = lesser gear regardless of when its released.  EQ1 balanced this to a reasonable degree for many, many years and it was a key to its success.  WoW threw the whole risk vs reward thing right out the window and it became new vs reward, not risk vs reward.

That and the explosion of the Valor/Justice system.   I know people hate RNG, but itmade you actually care what the dungeon bosses drop.  In WoW dungeon boss is mostly just disenchant fodder, and you run for the currency only.  Games are too reliant on these RNG removing currency that everything can just start feeling like a chore, a long grind for gear.  And Rift is obviously as guilty of this as anyone.

And yes, the fast easy leveling...WoW was an acceptable balance.  Towards the end of Vanilla, after 2 years of discovering the absolute optimal leveling path and quest progression, people had WoW leveling down to 6 days and change of /played time. Again, this is after careful study and planning and tons of practice.  Most modern MMOs you see the first max level toon within 2 days, and thats without the two years of practice.  Rift, SWTOR, GW2...all guilty as charged.

Originally posted by strangiato2112

Originally posted by GeezerGamer

I am not so sure I would call the games as 3rd and 4th gen as you say. The reason I say this is because there was a transition that began in 07 and was realized in 08. It was this transition where Themeparks changed. As well as no reall decent sandboxes, but realy, what I am talking about started with WoW late in TBC and was fully realizd in Wrath. But not immidiately in Wrath. Basically, Themeparks traded detailed and involved Metagaming and slow leveling for rapid leveling and game crippling gear progressions.

Prior to Patch 2.3, WoW end game gear levels started at lvl 115 and went through to 125.

After 2.3 - Gear went from 125 to 164

Then once Wrath was released the item levels picked up again at 200 and finally ended at 284

The worst of it was that the gear progression was so far out of control that the early 25man raid rewards were outclassed by    5 man heroic dungeon rewards. Naxx25 gear was lvl 213. ToC came in and released lvl 219 gear. This trend repeats again too.

From 2007 through 2009, the MMO changed. I'd say that if we were going to break games out between 2nd and 3rd gen or even 4th gen, which I don't know that a 4th gen exists. I'd say that WoW itself transitioned from one to the next in that period.

The reason I say GW2 is not a next gen game is because it has it's roots in WoW as much as Rift and SWTOR do. ANET used WoW as the foundation. The difference is that instead of making a better wow, they used WoW and said, OK, here's what not to do. But in the end, It's still based on WoW and is desigend to appeal to a certain type of WoW player. It certainly is not it's own game from the ground up. And it still falls into the same category as Later WoW. No Metagame, Fast, easy leveling and rapid easy gear aquisition though 80, (It's still gear progression. It's smaller in scale and highly cosmetic in nature, but it's there)

The absolute worst patch in WoW history was the trial of the crusader. They were coming off Ulduar, one of the best raid instances ever in any game (for Rifters who havent played it, it was even more epic-and challenging-than Hammerknell).  And then came along ToC, which brough with it dungeons that outgeared Naxx and an easy raid instance that triviliazed the gear to the much better designed, and more challenging Ulduar.  Why bother spending time in Ulduar when the gear in ToC was better?  Easier content should = lesser gear regardless of when its released.  EQ1 balanced this to a reasonable degree for many, many years and it was a key to its success.  WoW threw the whole risk vs reward thing right out the window and it became new vs reward, not risk vs reward.

 

That and the explosion of the Valor/Justice system.   I know people hate RNG, but itmade you actually care what the dungeon bosses drop.  In WoW dungeon boss is mostly just disenchant fodder, and you run for the currency only.  Games are too reliant on these RNG removing currency that everything can just start feeling like a chore, a long grind for gear.  And Rift is obviously as guilty of this as anyone.

 

And yes, the fast easy leveling...WoW was an acceptable balance.  Towards the end of Vanilla, after 2 years of discovering the absolute optimal leveling path and quest progression, people had WoW leveling down to 6 days and change of /played time. Again, this is after careful study and planning and tons of practice.  Most modern MMOs you see the first max level toon within 2 days, and thats without the two years of practice.  Rift, SWTOR, GW2...all guilty as charged.

And who was directly responsible for this shift? Activision. This all started right after Activision took over Blizzard. Now combine this with what Turbine did to LOTRO and DDO and we now have the sad state of post 2008 MMORPGs.

Insta-capping, assembly iine gear upgrades and P2(do something easier or better)

I still think Rift is the best TP MMO in modern releases, but I still won't say it's above what I just listed. And now with Deep's Depot, I am more than curious to see what it will look like after Storm Legion. In fact the appearace of that button is the only reason I have not pre ordered the expansion.  Nor will I until I know for certain there is nothing in that shop that can be used by a character. I don't care if it's only aviator sunglasses and boxing gloves. If it's in there, My sub is canceled.

Yeah i really hate seeing that shopping cart button. But i preordered the xpac because of the sheer quantity of features and content. They shouldve called it rift 2.

Originally posted by Foomerang

Yeah i really hate seeing that shopping cart button. But i preordered the xpac because of the sheer quantity of features and content. They shouldve called it rift 2.

Here is the question though.

What if Rift had to make a choice between 3 options in order to stay proftiable:

1. Cut staff

2. Raise subscription rates

3. Sell vanity stuff

Which would you prefer? 

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Originally posted by strangiato2112

---

Originally posted by Foomerang Yeah i really hate seeing that shopping cart button. But i preordered the xpac because of the sheer quantity of features and content. They shouldve called it rift 2.

---

Here is the question though.

 

What if Rift had to make a choice between 3 options in order to stay proftiable:

 

1. Cut staff

2. Raise subscription rates

3. Sell vanity stuff

 

 

Which would you prefer? 

---

Raised sub rates