Originally posted by jagd241

Not to keep pushing the game but there are no Auction Houses in Project Gorgon

http://www.eldergame.com/2012/09/the-case-against-auction-houses/

For the reasons identified by the OP and in this thread on the devidary above.

 

 

Nice post by the OP, the case of the Auction House has been debated many times over the years, I myself have made a similar post as the OP several years ago.

Nevertheless, I agree with the way it was done in UO and SWG, (Raph Coster was involved with both mind you).

Some other games did not have an auction house, such as Lineage 2, instead people set up shop with their characters, honnestly I did not like that approach at all, albeit it seems like it is a popular one with Asian MMO's.

I prefer the vendors of UO and SWG, of cource these imply some type of Housing system to be in as well, and many MMO's have abandoned that idea.

So when you have no houses and when you do not want your players to sit idle for hours when they rather be out there adventuring, what do you do? How do you provide a convenient means of exchange. And lest be specific here, an Auction House is not an Economy, it is but an Exchange center, there is much more involved in order to have an Economy.

And most MMO's moved away from that idea too. Because most MMO's focus on the Action part and do not want necessarilly to offer the Fantasy of running your onw business. But they want everyone to be able to spend a less time as possible in economical activities, and be able to exchange items with other players with the least possible impact to their time spent doing so.

Th auction house is the solution.

In a game such as WoW, it might be a good thing since it is a game focussed on Questing, you do not want your players spending tim running to Auctioneers. I personally very seldom used the AH in WoW too, I can actually count the time I used it on my fingers during the many months that I played it.

Another reason is because MMO's after WoW are designed to appeal to Fans and non Fans of the genre. And the average person will expect in a Virtual Environment to have the same convenience that they get in their every day life. When you need something you just go and buy it at the Super market, the Convenience store and all the other stores...

The auction house makes that possible while also periting people at the same time to sell something as well.

So everyone can buy and everyone can sell and no one needs to become a Merchant to do so.

That is fine if you are not looking for some depth of gameplay, ifyou are not seeking to play out the Fantasy of running a business, and most of the non fans of the genre are happy with it, and that is why at this point the AH has become a de facto feature.

But if your game has no depth, how are you going to insure its long term viability or profitability. Most people will play it for 3 months (many others just play them for one not subscribing ever), and then the decline starts...

Companies play with Marketing and the way things are expressed, because they know the average player does not have in depth understanding of some concepts and will just accept what is vehiculated.

When Game X, lists one of its feature to be a engaging and dynamic economy but the only thing that it contains is an Auction House, that is rubish in reality.

Not even WoW has an economy per se, it does have an Exchange system which fills the needs of some of its players but that is about it.

An Economy is defined by the activities of people (players in this context) consisting of the production, exchange, distribution and consumption of goods and services as required to satisfy the needs of people in a given society (the in game community of players in this context).

Do you really need to produce anything in WoW? Do you need to distribute anything? Do you actually need to consume anything? Do you need to exchange anything? The answer in no, you can play from lvl 1 to lvl 90 without ever engaging in any of these activities just doing your qusts going to the instances and arguably the raids.

On the other hand in a game such as SWG, you had certiain needs, while not a game breaking need, when you wanted to have a bigger house, when you wanted to expand your city, when you wanted to get better materials even or finished goods, a better weapons or a Droid or even a Pet, to assist you in your line of activity, thee was a place from certain specilists that provided this to you. You may have been playing the Fantasy of being a bounty Hunter, your chances of success were enhanced by having some good quality equipment (you could still be successfull if you did not have it, but to alesser degree, since it is a game, a certain minimum threshold had to be insured). And so you had the player who was  playing out their fantasy of being a Weaponsmith spending most of their gameing time having fun engaging on the economic activities required to their own success in making better and better weapons that you as a bounty hunter could buy from, and then have fun with in doing that which you spent most of your time in game, shooting stuff.

There was synergy like that and a wider appeal to many and diverse players with different tastes and preferences as well as fantasy goals and aspirations.

And this interaction between all these diverse players made up the gameplay experience.

Oh yes the crafter could play WoW too, and try to play out their fantasy usingthe Ah but it is a half baked experience for them, in time they will just have to conform to the way the game is played or simply quit bored. Because rpeating instances to get gear and doing quests all day long or staying up late for a spot in a raid is simply not what that particule person is having the most fun with...

So yes, I think too, that shoe boxing an "Economy" to simply being a way forpeople to exchange things which they do not need...is detrimental to an In game community, simply because the laws of enthropy will render it eventuallly homogeneous. And a community flourishes in the long term by being diverse...not by being made up of only the same parts.

What do we say when we see people living in small towns and villages moving off to the big cities, when they close their stores stop workingtheir lands, stop producing their goods? We say that these communities are dying, well same thing happens in MMO's too. The common denominator being Human beings who are naturally and inherently diverse.

But apparently it takes a rocket scientist to understand this when it comes to designing an MMO...or even worse, the Rocket scientist gets discarded by the Financeers...looking for a short term profit.

Originally posted by aRtFuLThinG

Originally posted by nariusseldon

That is only because there is no AH.

If there is an AH, the attribute of the item will be displayed. So while a good crafter and make better items and charge higher prices, the buyers don't have to care who he is.

If only you can make a +5 sword, and all swords are +4. On the AH, i can see your +5 sword. But i don't care about you or who you are .. i only care the "+5". The identify of the crafter is MOOT on a AH.

There was AH in SWG (Market Terminals).

 But people prefer to shop because the quality of the stuff that are sold on private vendors are superior.

 You are basing AH on the modern day MMO's mentality - where crafting is not a unique process and everything is of certain sets of quality. Back in the day (like in SWG) crafted items quality are dynamic and depended on a variety of factors (not just 3 different levels like rare, epic, legendary, etc).

 You haven't seen enough mmos and your judgement is based on limited experience, I'm sorry to say.

SWG never had AH, just market with fixed prices, in AH u can auction the price of the item.

For auctions was the trade channel and trade chans are in all games.

Originally posted by nariusseldon

Originally posted by Indol

I think nixing the idea of the AH goes hand in hand with nixing global chat.

 

A realistic approach to player interaction is more conducive to immersing people in a world than one that people can associate with forums or IM'ing which will cause people to act differently than if communcation and interaction were all done in the context of the actual game.

Which is exactly what i do NOT want. "realistic" is not necessarily fun to me. I want cross realm grouping. I want IM chat. I am not livnig a second life, i am playing a multiplayer game. Anything that makes playing with people easier (like NOT restricting me to people on a server) is a GOOD thing in my book.

You, and others like you are the reason that all games are being made the same way, and thus, the reason many games can't hold a lot of peoples attention past the first month. I've said this to you MANY times, LEAVE THOSE WHO WANT A DIFFERENT GAME ALONE! It's all well and good that you feel the need to present your argument for making all games the same, but you need to understand that other people have different interests that don't need to coincide with what you believe is "GOOD". Every thread that has someones opinion on what they don't like in a game, is shortly followed up by you stating how what is already being done, should be continued. The OP is not arguing for ALL games to have it removed, nor is he arguing that all games going forward should have the AH removed either. He is sharing an opinion, you are sharing your's, but regardless of anyone elses opinion, you come back and try to find a way to nicely state they are wrong. 

Thank everything that the world of gaming doesnt revolve around you. Otherwise I'd have no hopes for an MMO to come around and capture my attention span for more than a month. You remind me of that guy who bought GW2 and started complaining it should be more like WoW, when it already is a lot like WoW. Heaven forbid one game is different! (even if GW2 is pretty standard, but down scaled).

Bump cause this topic was the community spotlight in MMOFTW this week

Originally posted by Suraknar

Originally posted by jagd241

Not to keep pushing the game but there are no Auction Houses in Project Gorgon

http://www.eldergame.com/2012/09/the-case-against-auction-houses/

For the reasons identified by the OP and in this thread on the devidary above.

 

 

Nice post by the OP, the case of the Auction House has been debated many times over the years, I myself have made a similar post as the OP several years ago.

Nevertheless, I agree with the way it was done in UO and SWG, (Raph Coster was involved with both mind you).

Some other games did not have an auction house, such as Lineage 2, instead people set up shop with their characters, honnestly I did not like that approach at all, albeit it seems like it is a popular one with Asian MMO's.

I prefer the vendors of UO and SWG, of cource these imply some type of Housing system to be in as well, and many MMO's have abandoned that idea.

So when you have no houses and when you do not want your players to sit idle for hours when they rather be out there adventuring, what do you do? How do you provide a convenient means of exchange. And lest be specific here, an Auction House is not an Economy, it is but an Exchange center, there is much more involved in order to have an Economy.

And most MMO's moved away from that idea too. Because most MMO's focus on the Action part and do not want necessarilly to offer the Fantasy of running your onw business. But they want everyone to be able to spend a less time as possible in economical activities, and be able to exchange items with other players with the least possible impact to their time spent doing so.

Th auction house is the solution.

In a game such as WoW, it might be a good thing since it is a game focussed on Questing, you do not want your players spending tim running to Auctioneers. I personally very seldom used the AH in WoW too, I can actually count the time I used it on my fingers during the many months that I played it.

Another reason is because MMO's after WoW are designed to appeal to Fans and non Fans of the genre. And the average person will expect in a Virtual Environment to have the same convenience that they get in their every day life. When you need something you just go and buy it at the Super market, the Convenience store and all the other stores...

The auction house makes that possible while also periting people at the same time to sell something as well.

So everyone can buy and everyone can sell and no one needs to become a Merchant to do so.

That is fine if you are not looking for some depth of gameplay, ifyou are not seeking to play out the Fantasy of running a business, and most of the non fans of the genre are happy with it, and that is why at this point the AH has become a de facto feature.

But if your game has no depth, how are you going to insure its long term viability or profitability. Most people will play it for 3 months (many others just play them for one not subscribing ever), and then the decline starts...

Companies play with Marketing and the way things are expressed, because they know the average player does not have in depth understanding of some concepts and will just accept what is vehiculated.

When Game X, lists one of its feature to be a engaging and dynamic economy but the only thing that it contains is an Auction House, that is rubish in reality.

Not even WoW has an economy per se, it does have an Exchange system which fills the needs of some of its players but that is about it.

An Economy is defined by the activities of people (players in this context) consisting of the production, exchange, distribution and consumption of goods and services as required to satisfy the needs of people in a given society (the in game community of players in this context).

Do you really need to produce anything in WoW? Do you need to distribute anything? Do you actually need to consume anything? Do you need to exchange anything? The answer in no, you can play from lvl 1 to lvl 90 without ever engaging in any of these activities just doing your qusts going to the instances and arguably the raids.

On the other hand in a game such as SWG, you had certiain needs, while not a game breaking need, when you wanted to have a bigger house, when you wanted to expand your city, when you wanted to get better materials even or finished goods, a better weapons or a Droid or even a Pet, to assist you in your line of activity, thee was a place from certain specilists that provided this to you. You may have been playing the Fantasy of being a bounty Hunter, your chances of success were enhanced by having some good quality equipment (you could still be successfull if you did not have it, but to alesser degree, since it is a game, a certain minimum threshold had to be insured). And so you had the player who was  playing out their fantasy of being a Weaponsmith spending most of their gameing time having fun engaging on the economic activities required to their own success in making better and better weapons that you as a bounty hunter could buy from, and then have fun with in doing that which you spent most of your time in game, shooting stuff.

There was synergy like that and a wider appeal to many and diverse players with different tastes and preferences as well as fantasy goals and aspirations.

And this interaction between all these diverse players made up the gameplay experience.

Oh yes the crafter could play WoW too, and try to play out their fantasy usingthe Ah but it is a half baked experience for them, in time they will just have to conform to the way the game is played or simply quit bored. Because rpeating instances to get gear and doing quests all day long or staying up late for a spot in a raid is simply not what that particule person is having the most fun with...

So yes, I think too, that shoe boxing an "Economy" to simply being a way forpeople to exchange things which they do not need...is detrimental to an In game community, simply because the laws of enthropy will render it eventuallly homogeneous. And a community flourishes in the long term by being diverse...not by being made up of only the same parts.

What do we say when we see people living in small towns and villages moving off to the big cities, when they close their stores stop workingtheir lands, stop producing their goods? We say that these communities are dying, well same thing happens in MMO's too. The common denominator being Human beings who are naturally and inherently diverse.

But apparently it takes a rocket scientist to understand this when it comes to designing an MMO...or even worse, the Rocket scientist gets discarded by the Financeers...looking for a short term profit.

very well written, if you try origins of malu let me know. We seem to be very like minded, would be fun working with you

or any other game for that matter, waiting for a non pvp full loot sandbox where I can be a Merchant again

Originally posted by defector1968

SWG never had AH, just market with fixed prices, in AH u can auction the price of the item.

For auctions was the trade channel and trade chans are in all games.

I don't think the OP's (or in fact most post here) meaning of AH was on the EXACT function of the "auction" of AH, but on the fact that you can buy and sell things centrally.

It really doesn't matter whether they have the ability to "auction" with the AH. It is just one of the ways to buy and sell things.

GW2's AH is not technically an "auction" either.

It is more of a question of how AH affects communities (which my opinion is that not much really, but lack of player vendor impacts more). So the technically of whether AH is "auction" capable is actually inconsequential to this discussion.

Originally posted by jagd241

Not to keep pushing the game but there are no Auction Houses in Project Gorgon

http://www.eldergame.com/2012/09/the-case-against-auction-houses/

For the reasons identified by the OP and in this thread on the devidary above.

 

 

thats a good read, Gorgon sounds great on paper, it just looks so old, I might as well go back to AC

To the OP's original Post:

I think an AH's affect on so-called community is absolutely dependent on how it's configured. For instance ...

In WoW you can look in the AH and see exactly who's selling what items.

In SWTOR and many other MMOs the AH listings are completely anonymous.

WoW's setup worked for me because I could contact sellers directly and strike deals with them on the side. For example, if I was a non-skinning leathercrafter I could make a deal with one or more skinners to purchase all their hides, which because it meant a sure sale for all their hides, they were willing to sell at prices lower than the going AH rate. This was good business and it helped me get to know a number of other players. I suppose you'd call that community building.

Some games offer both AHs and player shops. Perfect World is one such game where items in players' shops are often more diverse and sell for less than on the AH. Again, when you find other players that seem to specialize in the items you need it's easy enough to reach out to them and strike long- or short-term deals; again building relationships.

For my own experience, I've never found chat/trade channels particularly useful in offsetting anonymous AH listings, but that could just be me.

I just left Pirates of the Burning Sea after a month (nothing to do with the game or community). PoTBS has a deep economy and pretty good community despite have anonymous AH listings, dead trade channel, and no user-based shops. But I suspect that has more to do with the "Nations" configuration and relative ease and speed in moving about the map.

In large measure, I think the makeup of the player community has much more to do with a sense of community than game mechanics. Where a large proportion of players are engaged in leveling up just as fast as they can, there's less sense of community, even when players must group for instances. Forcing people to group does not make community. The only thing that does so is a player base that's interested in leveraging all gaming aspects -- PvE, PvP, RvR, Dailies, Instances, guild-level events, and Crafting. In short, I blame a gamer mentality that says I must hurry up and level for ultimate destruction of gaming communities.

Originally posted by Myrdynn

Originally posted by jagd241

Not to keep pushing the game but there are no Auction Houses in Project Gorgon

http://www.eldergame.com/2012/09/the-case-against-auction-houses/

For the reasons identified by the OP and in this thread on the devidary above.

 

 

thats a good read, Gorgon sounds great on paper, it just looks so old, I might as well go back to AC

 

That's why the kickstarter for art assets - couldn't agree more that it needs help with the art/animation ;-)  Did you check out the Video Diary?  I posted a thread in the rumor section with links.

Originally posted by Myrdynn

I have long been thinking of posting this, finally getting a little time to do so.  While playing some games recently, TSW, GW2, SWtor, TERA, etc over the last year, it has dawned on me that the biggest community killer is the Auction House.  Recently games (TSW and GW2) launched without a proper AH, and until they were put in place, people actually talked in the channels, making deals, helping people, selling mats etc.  I actually made a couple acquaintances that were heavy crafters, who just were after all the supplies they could get their hands on, and I was willing to help em out.  It was a good relationship.  Then the AH was fixed, and since then I havent even talked to a single person in game.  Before you say, well I should try making friends, there really is nothing in either TSW or GW2 that having friends makes beneficial.  I dont need them to do anything in game, I dont need them to craft anything for me, etc.

Now long ago, the games we played didnt have Auction Houses, and they were very strong communities.  Everyone on a server knew that if you wanted a Ubersword of Giant Slaying, that BobJohnson was the one that could craft it the best, or you could at least ask around and see if someone could hook you up.  This built community, numerous times, a conversation would go something like.  Hey I hear you can make me "item X', sure I can, but the mats are really tough to come by.  But why dont we get a group together and go out on a hunting party to find them.  You get your mats, you help me skill up one of my crafting skills, its a win/win.  Friendships were formed, alliances were forged, etc.

Unfortunately with the have it all now crowd that play MMO's Auction Houses are an evil necessity.  You collect your mats, sell them on the AH for X currency, then search for the item you want and bam, you got it, very short time, very EZ.  But during this time, you have no interaction with another player whatsoever, hell you dont even know who made you your item.  Items used to be imprinted with crafters as well, so that when someone says hey where did you get that sword you could inspect it and it would say made by "player X".

Anyways, I know I am going to likely be in the minority, but its something I have been thinking of for some time.  I think a happy medium might be a game where an Auction House isnt really an AH, but a Job listing, for example you want "Sword X" you search the AH database of "who" can craft it, and it will give you a list with (online/offline) status's, where you then actually need to interact with a player, It might not be all that much different but at least its a step back in the right direction

Thoughts?

I recall in EQ when we had the Bazaar. (For those that don't know) They had stalls where players could park their characters to peddle their wares. A LOT of players actually sat at their character and bartered with others, and  would have messages they'd say when players passed by trying to entice them in to buy their goods.

I myself spent countless hours in the bazaar doing the same thing and had a blast doing it just as much as I did adventuring. Made a boat load of plat to boot! Even remember some places being trader hubs besides the Bazaar that players used because they were high traffic areas.

Who remembers "Selling a stack of bat wings at T1!"

So anyways,  I don't believe they are completely bad for community...it's just how it is implemented into the game that determines that. Done like above? It allows for interaction still. Done like WoW or beyond? Just set it in a window and that's it...sells or is returned automatically...no interaction at all.

Originally posted by Goatgod76

Originally posted by Myrdynn

I have long been thinking of posting this, finally getting a little time to do so.  While playing some games recently, TSW, GW2, SWtor, TERA, etc over the last year, it has dawned on me that the biggest community killer is the Auction House.  Recently games (TSW and GW2) launched without a proper AH, and until they were put in place, people actually talked in the channels, making deals, helping people, selling mats etc.  I actually made a couple acquaintances that were heavy crafters, who just were after all the supplies they could get their hands on, and I was willing to help em out.  It was a good relationship.  Then the AH was fixed, and since then I havent even talked to a single person in game.  Before you say, well I should try making friends, there really is nothing in either TSW or GW2 that having friends makes beneficial.  I dont need them to do anything in game, I dont need them to craft anything for me, etc.

Now long ago, the games we played didnt have Auction Houses, and they were very strong communities.  Everyone on a server knew that if you wanted a Ubersword of Giant Slaying, that BobJohnson was the one that could craft it the best, or you could at least ask around and see if someone could hook you up.  This built community, numerous times, a conversation would go something like.  Hey I hear you can make me "item X', sure I can, but the mats are really tough to come by.  But why dont we get a group together and go out on a hunting party to find them.  You get your mats, you help me skill up one of my crafting skills, its a win/win.  Friendships were formed, alliances were forged, etc.

Unfortunately with the have it all now crowd that play MMO's Auction Houses are an evil necessity.  You collect your mats, sell them on the AH for X currency, then search for the item you want and bam, you got it, very short time, very EZ.  But during this time, you have no interaction with another player whatsoever, hell you dont even know who made you your item.  Items used to be imprinted with crafters as well, so that when someone says hey where did you get that sword you could inspect it and it would say made by "player X".

Anyways, I know I am going to likely be in the minority, but its something I have been thinking of for some time.  I think a happy medium might be a game where an Auction House isnt really an AH, but a Job listing, for example you want "Sword X" you search the AH database of "who" can craft it, and it will give you a list with (online/offline) status's, where you then actually need to interact with a player, It might not be all that much different but at least its a step back in the right direction

Thoughts?

I recall in EQ when we had the Bazaar. (For those that don't know) They had stalls where players could park their characters to peddle their wares. A LOT of players actually sat at their character and bartered with others, and  would have messages they'd say when players passed by trying to entice them in to buy their goods.

I myself spent countless hours in the bazaar doing the same thing and had a blast doing it just as much as I did adventuring. Made a boat load of plat to boot! Even remember some places being trader hubs besides the Bazaar that players used because they were high traffic areas.

 

Who remembers "Selling a stack of bat wings at T1!"

So anyways,  I don't believe they are completely bad for community...it's just how it is implemented into the game that determines that. Done like above? It allows for interaction still. Done like WoW or beyond? Just set it in a window and that's it...sells or is returned automatically...no interaction at all.

yep in Asheron's Call we set up our own trade hubs in certain cities.  Arwic and Subway were the first great trading places, then Turbine added a Marketplace where we could have our own stalls, and advertise, even write scripts to trade using a 3rd party app.  We also used message boards as an Auction site, it was really cool

MMO games are kind of like life.  You don't necessarily need friends to play them, but they are much more fun with your friends.  Likewise, you don't need friends in life, but it's much more fun sharing it with your friends.  So, why do you need a game to force you to make friends?  Just go make friends and enjoy the game with them.

Are you guys really that anti social that you need to be forced into talking to people?  Are you the type of people who would stand at the wall next to the speakers at the dance and then complain that no one talked to you, and the dance planners didn't do enough to make it a social experience?

It's not rocket science.

Originally posted by yewsef
I agree with the op. Auction Houses are one of the factors that reduced player communication along with the quest driven approach, solo ability till max level and instances.

An MMORPG should not be convenient all the time. Otherwise it will lose its purpose.

I think you actually can make shopping items both convinient and still run by players. Like having a arket and trading district in the main cities of the game and rent out booths and stores to players and guilds.

Merchant guilds is really both convinient and still social.

Some claims WoW is no longer socialative(is there such a word?).

I organize groups to finish heroics within 10minutes. Did I socialize? (and that's challenging too for those keep saying wow is too easy. Finishing 4 bosses in 10 minutes does require skill......well and loot of course)

I am a crafter. I have a list of 10ish sellers that would constantly feed me with mats.

I sell my items in trade channel with a much cheaper price than in AH (so I dun have to undercut and people still get my cheap products). Did I socialize?

Socializing is a matter of choice. Nothing of those convenient features killed the community. People did.

People that whine and did nothing to comprehend the situation killed it further.

edit : adding "does"

Originally posted by evolver1972

MMO games are kind of like life.  You don't necessarily need friends to play them, but they are much more fun with your friends.  Likewise, you don't need friends in life, but it's much more fun sharing it with your friends.  So, why do you need a game to force you to make friends?  Just go make friends and enjoy the game with them.

Are you guys really that anti social that you need to be forced into talking to people?  Are you the type of people who would stand at the wall next to the speakers at the dance and then complain that no one talked to you, and the dance planners didn't do enough to make it a social experience?

It's not rocket science.

Old argument.  You don't get it I think.

Some people want to play a game that require cooperation to do certain things.  I don't understand what is hard to get here?

You need cooperation of multiple people to raids in raiding game - why you're surprised that some people would like to play game where crafting, trade and parts of open world would also require group of people or interaction?

If you don't like games or activities like that they it is ok - you still will have huge majority of games that offer 90% of things in it avabile in very fast conveniant automatized ways.  You're now trying to force what views people shoud have and how ALL games should look like.  Embrace diversity.

Originally posted by madazz

Originally posted by nariusseldon

Originally posted by Indol

I think nixing the idea of the AH goes hand in hand with nixing global chat.

 

A realistic approach to player interaction is more conducive to immersing people in a world than one that people can associate with forums or IM'ing which will cause people to act differently than if communcation and interaction were all done in the context of the actual game.

Which is exactly what i do NOT want. "realistic" is not necessarily fun to me. I want cross realm grouping. I want IM chat. I am not livnig a second life, i am playing a multiplayer game. Anything that makes playing with people easier (like NOT restricting me to people on a server) is a GOOD thing in my book.

You, and others like you are the reason that all games are being made the same way, and thus, the reason many games can't hold a lot of peoples attention past the first month. I've said this to you MANY times, LEAVE THOSE WHO WANT A DIFFERENT GAME ALONE! It's all well and good that you feel the need to present your argument for making all games the same, but you need to understand that other people have different interests that don't need to coincide with what you believe is "GOOD". Every thread that has someones opinion on what they don't like in a game, is shortly followed up by you stating how what is already being done, should be continued. The OP is not arguing for ALL games to have it removed, nor is he arguing that all games going forward should have the AH removed either. He is sharing an opinion, you are sharing your's, but regardless of anyone elses opinion, you come back and try to find a way to nicely state they are wrong. 

What make your interests more important than mine? If you can talk about it, so can i. And i just say what is fun for me .. no different than you.

Thank everything that the world of gaming doesnt revolve around you. Otherwise I'd have no hopes for an MMO to come around and capture my attention span for more than a month. You remind me of that guy who bought GW2 and started complaining it should be more like WoW, when it already is a lot like WoW. Heaven forbid one game is different! (even if GW2 is pretty standard, but down scaled).

Neither revolve around you. We all vote with our wallets. We willl see whose preferences devs pay attention to. And i do like different games. Borderland 2 is very different from Diablo3, and very different from WOW.

And why would i care if you have no MMO to play? That is not my problem.

Originally posted by fenistil

 

Old argument.  You don't get it I think.

Some people want to play a game that require cooperation to do certain things.  I don't understand what is hard to get here?

You need cooperation of multiple people to raids in raiding game - why you're surprised that some people would like to play game where crafting, trade and parts of open world would also require group of people or interaction?

If you don't like games or activities like that they it is ok - you still will have huge majority of games that offer 90% of things in it avabile in very fast conveniant automatized ways.  You're now trying to force what views people shoud have and how ALL games should look like.  Embrace diversity.

This "force what views people shoud have and how ALL games should look like" is getting old.

Everyone is just talking about what they like. And it is not like people don't understand you can't change minds on the Internet.

So what if some like to do cooperative crafting. I don't. That is not what i play a game for. And it is also not like there is no such game .. Tales in the Desert is one.

Originally posted by fenistil

Originally posted by evolver1972

MMO games are kind of like life.  You don't necessarily need friends to play them, but they are much more fun with your friends.  Likewise, you don't need friends in life, but it's much more fun sharing it with your friends.  So, why do you need a game to force you to make friends?  Just go make friends and enjoy the game with them.

Are you guys really that anti social that you need to be forced into talking to people?  Are you the type of people who would stand at the wall next to the speakers at the dance and then complain that no one talked to you, and the dance planners didn't do enough to make it a social experience?

It's not rocket science.

Old argument.  You don't get it I think.

Some people want to play a game that require cooperation to do certain things.  I don't understand what is hard to get here?

You need cooperation of multiple people to raids in raiding game - why you're surprised that some people would like to play game where crafting, trade and parts of open world would also require group of people or interaction?

If you don't like games or activities like that they it is ok - you still will have huge majority of games that offer 90% of things in it avabile in very fast conveniant automatized ways.  You're now trying to force what views people shoud have and how ALL games should look like.  Embrace diversity.

I'm not trying to force anyone into any belief.  Not sure where you got that idea.  I'm merely asking why someone feels they need to be forced to be social.  Rather than having games that allow for being social, i.e. grouping, dungeons, etc.

So, you're right, I don't get why people need to be forced to do something if they can't just do it on their own.  Then when they don't do it on their own, they get upset and say it's the developers fault.  Yeah, I don't get that at all.