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The Pub at MMORPG.COM  » Do mmorpgs need to die? AKA MMORPG phoenix

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121 posts found
  VengeSunsoar

Elite Member

Joined: 3/10/04
Posts: 4827

Be Brief, Be Bright... Be Gone.

10/08/12 2:27:24 PM#41

Actually most of them are doing quite well.  Populations to match the majority of old games, turning profits, releasing expansions, getting updates.

As with any industry there will be some that don't make it, and as there are more and more games there will be more companies that make it.

But most of the games released in the last 7 years are doing pretty good.

Quit worrying about other players in a game and just play.

  Daneril

Apprentice Member

Joined: 4/22/07
Posts: 39

10/08/12 2:31:33 PM#42
Now that Mmorpgs are so popular that everyone knows about them it's hard to get the same feeling that you got playing some of those old school Mmorpgs. I sorely miss the days of old school Everquest but i know that a lot of that is just nostalgia and i know that no game will make me feel that way again. Mmorpgs are in the mainsteam and they will propably stay there for a while. Its still possible though to have a good time in a mmorpg, you just need to surround yourself with players like yourself. I always find guilds of old school players to play with and it makes the whole experience way more fun no matter what game.

  nariusseldon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 19805

10/08/12 2:34:23 PM#43
Originally posted by rush1984

Before you jump the gun , im not saying they need to die completely

what i beleive is that in order for mmorpgs to get back to the original state,for example UO , vannila wow etc

i beleive the genre needs to die, it needs to die so badly that all those those players that aint really Fans get bored and leave

it needs to die to the extent that only the true fans are left so that once again  the games become games made for fans by fans of the genre.

your probaly thinking whats a true fan? maybe im using the wrong choice of words so ill try to explain, back when mmorpgs were only played by us geeks (sorry to be blunt) the communitys was 10x better heck even 100x but with the success with wow it ultimately brought alot of players to the genre that woulnt have had  given it a second glance previously. This imo is what destroyed the community its like a bunch of party crashers that refuse to leave and then make demands on the host to change the music..."think forums and whines for nerfs .. and "this is too hard" or "i dont have enough time in teh day to do this its not fair i want my free epics"

I just feel these games aint made for "us" anymore

So thats why i think this genre needs to die if only to be reborn and be for "us" once again

 

 

 

No. MMORPGs do not need to go back to the old days and lost all the progress of becoming better games.

If you feel these games are not for you, you can always quit and do somethign else. I am perfectly happy to play modern MMORPGs.

And they are not likely to die with 47+M MMO players in the US.

  nariusseldon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 19805

10/08/12 2:35:17 PM#44
Originally posted by Daneril
Now that Mmorpgs are so popular that everyone knows about them it's hard to get the same feeling that you got playing some of those old school Mmorpgs. I sorely miss the days of old school Everquest but i know that a lot of that is just nostalgia and i know that no game will make me feel that way again. Mmorpgs are in the mainsteam and they will propably stay there for a while. Its still possible though to have a good time in a mmorpg, you just need to surround yourself with players like yourself. I always find guilds of old school players to play with and it makes the whole experience way more fun no matter what game.

It is a good thing "hard to get the same feeling of EQ" .. it was boring, lots of camping & frustration. I am glad those days are over.

  toddze

Advanced Member

Joined: 8/02/08
Posts: 2197

I am not a hater, I call it like I see it.

10/08/12 2:51:36 PM#45
Originally posted by DarSepki

MMORPG is no longer being used to describe a genre, it is a buzz word companies are using to for more sales. Pre-Wow, there were no 'mainstream' MMO. Now everybody knows them.

MMOS do not need to die, usage of the buzzword does.

This is it exactly. That "buzzword" as you refered to it is also inherently associated with monthly fees. Those 5 little letters m.m.o.r.p.g yeilds developers 15$ a month alone. No business in their right mind will ever advertise their game as an Online RPG, because it wouldnt be near as easy to charge for it.

I couldnt care less what happenes to the mmoprg genre, all I want is to see some of the Pre-wow type of MMO's. Theres obviously a market for the single player onlie rpg (SPORPG) games, games like SWTOR and GW2 just proves that. They sell tons of box copies, but dammint I could teach a monkey to play those games, to me nothing is more repulsive than easy mode games.

Waiting for:EQ-Next, ArcheAge (not so much anymore)
Now Playing: N/A
Worst MMO: FFXIV
Favorite MMO: FFXI

  Tamanous

Elite Member

Joined: 3/22/09
Posts: 1709

10/08/12 3:22:38 PM#46

The current industry model needs to die where large development companies pump out templated games with little or no true rpg gaming ambition. Voting with you wallet will be the only way to get these crap games off the market. Companies jumping on the mmo bandwagon is ruining the genre.

 

The very fact many of these companies and games are failing proves the genre cannot support so many released mmos. There will be sub-genres and mmos of man types but good games will only ever come from companies backed by gaming passion and vision. The current mega-corp absorptions of smaller indi-developers has to stop. Those same mega-corps simply have to shrink themselves which luckily we are seeing. The audience will always be there but that same audience absolutely must vote with their wallets and voice their concerns.

 

What is happening in the industry is that the wants of the original mmorpg audience are being ignored. Attracting new players from other genres has been the focus of the developers. This has been a major failing for most companies. Mmorpgs require players who are willing to invest long periods of time in their game of choice. They play few games outside of it. New mmos grant ease of access and very easy progression which is counterintuitive to why players originally played rpg's. They played them because they were hard and took time and not because they were easy. Once mmos lost their connection to traditional rpgs the genre lost it's focus.

 

One example of this is actually with the classic rog game D&D. WotC bought TSR and the D&D franchise and continued a successful product with it's 3rd edition revisions. The company then did something extremely odd ... they completely reinvented the game with it's 4th edition and turned it into a tabletop strategy game in order to support it's miniature lines and possible licensing to video games with it's far more tactical rulesets. 1st, 2nd and 3rd edition (and d20 open licensed games) players were outraged. The forums turned into nothing more than min/max threads about how to build the pefect dps or tankers when it used to once be about lore, rp gaming experiences and general class building. Simply talking about rp elements, crafting and story was met with all the arguments and trolling you would normally see on mmo or even fps/strategy forums.

During this time a totally different company continued to publish their d20 open game license rulesets by the name of Pathfinder. This started to become so popular that WotC recently discovered that nearly the ENTIRE D&D fanbase which they once owned was now playing Pathfinder and that the core playerbase of 4th edition D&D was largely an entirely new audience (stragic gamers). WotC effectively lost their market share of a game that once dominated the rpg industry.

The result: WotC did an entire about face. They put out a new company mission statement that flat out apologized to their previous fans, admitted they screwed up and were now devoting their entire focus on a new edition (D&D Next ... sound familiar? There is also EQNext coming from SOE) without an edition number in order to re-envision and reinvent the brand name they lost touch of. They rebuilt their D&D website from the ground up focusing on the rp elements and experience of the game, re-published and packaged the 1st and 3rd edition D&D books and even put emphasis on teaching players how to play traditional rpgs once again through imagination and roleplay and less focus on hard rulesets.

Even Dragon/Dungeon magazines have been impacted as all new editions would focus on lore, existing published rules and monsters only (this was due in part to 2 issues being too many unbalanced, non-canon player material was being published and to generalize the magazines for all versions of D&D and move focus away from 4th edition). There is also nearly no direct link to 4th edition books. WotC is trying to remake history and wipe the existance of 4th edition out of the memories of their old core fanbase. They simply screwed up that badly.

 

What I see (and am seeing) is something similar starting in the mmo industry. Development companies are slowly waking up to fact they have been pumping out crap based on a model that has become completely detached from the genres original playerbase. The mmorpg genre is no longer a defined genre. It has been expanded and water down so much that few or no products focus on the original concepts that created mmorpgs to begin with. Few mmos have links to the rpg experience. They are collection of mechanics thrown together because an industry model tells developers they are needed. An actual virtual experience is no longer the goal. By virtual I do not mean visual. The core essence to traditional rpg play is creating a real world through imagination. That is the true essence of virtual world is ... complete and total immersion into a world you can effectively touch, smell and live in. In order to do this a player has to have complete control which can only be done through imagination. In mmos this means sandbox elements customized toward the vision that is the game. Templating a themepark where a player pays their fee to ride but has little or no impact on the world will never, ever be a true mmorpg. Ease of access and content devoured in hours or days instead of months or years can never be a true mmorpg.

 

What I hope to see is more companies failing and/or suddenly dropping upon their knees begging their playerbase forgiveness because of their lost ways. Hell if they are smart they will market it like SOE and make you think they are being revolutionary by making EQNext ... instead of actually hiding the fact they screwed up so badly over the years and lost sight of where they came from and who helped them get there.

 

I should add one thing as well: F2P model. There is great debate over this but I truly now believe that this is likely one of the greatest downfalls to rpg-style mmorpg games. We all know that many companies are converting their games to it and often see an increase in playerbase and income. What is now becoming apparent is that this is nothing more than a band-aid. It does little in the way of building community. Most f2p players are transient and do not invest the same amount of time as premium paying players who tend to have played the game much longer and contribute more time toward community building (ie. server events, guilds etc). A large portion of cash shop profit comes from newer players using it to accellerate their progression in order to catch up to players who earned their rewards through playtime and all the social benefits derived from this that can only be generated by time inventment. CS shortcuts hurt mmos in ways far greater than most are aware. Ease of game has hurt the genre more than anyone would have guessed. As implied earlier, todays mmos are no closer related to true virtual mmorpgs than FPS games are now. It's all about, "Give me my crap NOW so I can go out and kill with the best crap available!". Open ANY rpg book and that is pretty much the one thing they say you never, ever do or else the game is pointless. F2P is akin to metagaming which is the death of an rpg experience.

You stay sassy!

  DavisFlight

Elite Member

Joined: 9/25/12
Posts: 2585

10/08/12 3:27:58 PM#47
Originally posted by VengeSunsoar

Actually most of them are doing quite well.  Populations to match the majority of old games, turning profits, releasing expansions, getting updates.

As with any industry there will be some that don't make it, and as there are more and more games there will be more companies that make it.

But most of the games released in the last 7 years are doing pretty good.

Haha, are you kidding me? DDO was dead on arrival for the first 4 years of its life until it went FTP. AoC bankrupted two of Funcom's partners and they merged servers almost right away. Aion was a complete flop in the west. Rift merged servers within months of launch. SWTOR was met with a resounding "hate to say we told you so". TSW is already in trouble. DCUO and STO both had horrible launches and only started to recover when they went FTP.

And I think it's pretty generous to claim that any of those games had the same growing population numbers old MMOs had. And even if it were true, is it really an acomplishment that a brand new MMO has less/equal sub numbers of games that came out when most people didn't have video cards in their PCs and were on dial up?

  User Deleted
10/08/12 3:38:35 PM#48

zerg difficulty just for the sake of being difficult, extremely long hours at doing anything meaningful and not getting rewarded for it so you have to run it ten thousand more times, having to listen to some snotnosed poor loser in his 30's living in his mom's basement because he spends too much money on multiboxing to actually move out, yell at you because he's got anger issues.....

Sorry, those don't represent the basics of mmo's for me or for majority of us. 

My fondest memories were running dungeons, not for gear but for the story.

My fondest open world experiences were not spending hours doing dailies for rep but doing the open world quest chains that had alot of lore in them. (pre vo i know but still)

So saying that it was better when it was just starting out and they didn't really understand HOW they should make their games more fun for the players and often ignored people who A: weren't asking for handouts and B: should have had access to the lore in the first place isn't an accurate picture.

This is nothing but yet another thread from the dieing minority group known as the elitist jerks who spent all their days theorycrafting and with spreadsheets working out how best to raid so they could spend the other 9 hours out of their day wondering around PVP Zones or major cities so they could show off their fashion show. Nothing new imo.

  TdogSkal

Apprentice Member

Joined: 5/11/06
Posts: 1259

Do not fear death, Death will come a knocking anytime it wants.

10/08/12 3:40:46 PM#49
Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by Daneril
Now that Mmorpgs are so popular that everyone knows about them it's hard to get the same feeling that you got playing some of those old school Mmorpgs. I sorely miss the days of old school Everquest but i know that a lot of that is just nostalgia and i know that no game will make me feel that way again. Mmorpgs are in the mainsteam and they will propably stay there for a while. Its still possible though to have a good time in a mmorpg, you just need to surround yourself with players like yourself. I always find guilds of old school players to play with and it makes the whole experience way more fun no matter what game.

It is a good thing "hard to get the same feeling of EQ" .. it was boring, lots of camping & frustration. I am glad those days are over.

EQ1 was anything but borning.  Camping and grinding with a group was so much fun.  I miss that.  Today if you want to group you have to run dungeons, everything else is solo play.  

Talk about boring. 

Frustration?  Yes dying sucked and that is a good thing, today this dying means nothing and is used as a quick port thing sucks. 

Todays MMOs forgot about the Risk vs Reward.

Everquest had the Risk vs Reward down.  The more risk you took, the more reward you got.  

I wish the old days of MMORPGs would come back.  If they did it would kill 60% of the population as they might have to use their brain to play a game for once in their lifes.

Games are about problem solving, always have been and always should be.  No so much in today's MMO world, if you can follow directions, you can be successful in today's MMOs.  No problem solving required which is what has been missing since WoW.

Sooner or Later

  Vyeth

Novice Member

Joined: 12/17/07
Posts: 1464

Celebrated pariah of MMORPG.com

10/08/12 3:55:56 PM#50

Remember the video game crash in the 80's? I'm not old enough to have experienced it completely but I have read the reasons for it and I think this genre is headed in the same direction..

Oversaturation..

The amount of MMORPG's has been increasing greatly while the demand for them are actually on the decline after the WoW boom. And seeing as other genre's are basically adopting the features that many of us look for in our mmorpg's, there will soon be no need for the genre to exist because it would have been blended across many..

I think a total crash of the genre would be a good thing and would force a total reboot that hopefully would spark the same creative freedom that existed in the mid to late 90's..

  User Deleted
10/08/12 3:59:53 PM#51
Originally posted by nariusseldon

It is a good thing "hard to get the same feeling of EQ" .. it was boring, lots of camping & frustration. I am glad those days are over.

^^^ This

I played UO from day one and if you asked me to go back and play the "vanilla" game again, I'd tell you to drop dead. Same for EQ1.

Too many self-professed MMO vets still wearing those rose-colored glasses. Those games were not as great as we remember them. Really, they were not. The modern MMO is far superior, not only in graphics, but in gameplay.

Let the dead stay dead.

  ste2000

Advanced Member

Joined: 2/28/04
Posts: 4735

10/08/12 4:03:37 PM#52

We just need more AAA Sandboxes...............there's never been one

I think now it's the time.

  User Deleted
 
OP  10/08/12 4:08:43 PM#53
Originally posted by itgrowls

 

This is nothing but yet another thread from the dieing minority group known as the elitist jerks who spent all their days theorycrafting and with spreadsheets working out how best to raid so they could spend the other 9 hours out of their day wondering around PVP Zones or major cities so they could show off their fashion show. Nothing new imo.

and what is wrong with that?

i remember back in the day standing around OG with full dragon stalker back then being "epic" actually meant soemthing i worked damn hard getting that set, after obtainin t1 ofc hell even the 0.5 set that you got from scholo , strat etc now in games liek wow you ding max lvl in a week and then get full epic in 1 day...sad sad times it took me 3 months just to get teh champion gear (never did get highwarlord)

this is soemthing teh noobs of today will never understand all they want is free epix without any effort

  ste2000

Advanced Member

Joined: 2/28/04
Posts: 4735

10/08/12 4:13:16 PM#54
Originally posted by grimgryphon
Originally posted by nariusseldon

It is a good thing "hard to get the same feeling of EQ" .. it was boring, lots of camping & frustration. I am glad those days are over.

^^^ This

I played UO from day one and if you asked me to go back and play the "vanilla" game again, I'd tell you to drop dead. Same for EQ1.

Too many self-professed MMO vets still wearing those rose-colored glasses. Those games were not as great as we remember them. Really, they were not. The modern MMO is far superior, not only in graphics, but in gameplay.

Let the dead stay dead.

That's very naive to say that.

Those games are 10 y/o with a 10y/o technology and concept.

Of course no one would play EQ1 or UO today as they are.............

What the MMO industry has to do is to update those concepts to 2012 standards with better graphics, better UI, better gameplay (less grind)

And yes those 2 games have each a distinctive selling point which current MMOs do not have, therefore they could be NEW material  for the WoW generation

  DavisFlight

Elite Member

Joined: 9/25/12
Posts: 2585

10/08/12 5:12:10 PM#55
Originally posted by ste2000

We just need more AAA Sandboxes...............there's never been one

I think now it's the time.

SWG was a AAA sandbox title, and it was fantastic. 

 

 

Originally posted by grimgryphon
Originally posted by nariusseldon

It is a good thing "hard to get the same feeling of EQ" .. it was boring, lots of camping & frustration. I am glad those days are over.

^^^ This

I played UO from day one and if you asked me to go back and play the "vanilla" game again, I'd tell you to drop dead. Same for EQ1.

Too many self-professed MMO vets still wearing those rose-colored glasses. Those games were not as great as we remember them. Really, they were not. The modern MMO is far superior, not only in graphics, but in gameplay.

Let the dead stay dead.

Except they're not dead, they have people still paying subs and they're still getting expansions, something a lot of modern Wow clones can't claim. Some of us like using our brains, working with other people in a social world, and being challenged by hard games, rather than plunking down and following the sparkling glowing arrow and watching numbers go up while we play by ourselves. 

  Purutzil

Elite Member

Joined: 10/02/11
Posts: 2861

The Critical Hit Pretzel!

10/08/12 5:19:44 PM#56
I wouldn't call it dieing... but It does in some ways make me wish the MMO market crashed. More so, I want publishers to go out of business. Games are being made for profit > Entertainment which is a terrible way to make games. Money should come in second with anything in the entertainment industry whether its movies or games. Having it be about profit makes games weaker.
  VengeSunsoar

Elite Member

Joined: 3/10/04
Posts: 4827

Be Brief, Be Bright... Be Gone.

10/08/12 5:33:56 PM#57
Originally posted by DavisFlight
Originally posted by VengeSunsoar

Actually most of them are doing quite well.  Populations to match the majority of old games, turning profits, releasing expansions, getting updates.

As with any industry there will be some that don't make it, and as there are more and more games there will be more companies that make it.

But most of the games released in the last 7 years are doing pretty good.

Haha, are you kidding me? DDO was dead on arrival for the first 4 years of its life until it went FTP. AoC bankrupted two of Funcom's partners and they merged servers almost right away. Aion was a complete flop in the west. Rift merged servers within months of launch. SWTOR was met with a resounding "hate to say we told you so". TSW is already in trouble. DCUO and STO both had horrible launches and only started to recover when they went FTP.

And I think it's pretty generous to claim that any of those games had the same growing population numbers old MMOs had. And even if it were true, is it really an acomplishment that a brand new MMO has less/equal sub numbers of games that came out when most people didn't have video cards in their PCs and were on dial up?

Yes DDO and AoC did not do well

However SwTor sold almost 2 million units, pretty darn good.  Yes they will be merging servers but we do not know how many people are currently playing.

Rift has done very well, definately making a profit, lots of people playing and funding another game.

LOTRO has done very well.

EQ2 has done very well.

Aion did not do well in the west but on the world market has done very well, one of the most played games in the world.

So yes most games have done quite well.  Some haven't, some have.

Most games have just as high a population as SWG, Daoc and AC.  

Growing population is a very good indication of success but is not the only one.  Besides it really isn't realistic to expect a game to hold onto millions of subscribers, however they should be prepared for them.

Most of the games today have the same population as the old games.  Not EQ good, but swg, daoc and ac good. 

Quit worrying about other players in a game and just play.

  DavisFlight

Elite Member

Joined: 9/25/12
Posts: 2585

10/08/12 9:13:24 PM#58
Originally posted by VengeSunsoar
Originally posted by DavisFlight
Originally posted by VengeSunsoar

Actually most of them are doing quite well.  Populations to match the majority of old games, turning profits, releasing expansions, getting updates.

As with any industry there will be some that don't make it, and as there are more and more games there will be more companies that make it.

But most of the games released in the last 7 years are doing pretty good.

Haha, are you kidding me? DDO was dead on arrival for the first 4 years of its life until it went FTP. AoC bankrupted two of Funcom's partners and they merged servers almost right away. Aion was a complete flop in the west. Rift merged servers within months of launch. SWTOR was met with a resounding "hate to say we told you so". TSW is already in trouble. DCUO and STO both had horrible launches and only started to recover when they went FTP.

And I think it's pretty generous to claim that any of those games had the same growing population numbers old MMOs had. And even if it were true, is it really an acomplishment that a brand new MMO has less/equal sub numbers of games that came out when most people didn't have video cards in their PCs and were on dial up?

Yes DDO and AoC did not do well

However SwTor sold almost 2 million units, pretty darn good.  Not for the insane 300 million budget for the game. If that was good enough they wouldn't have fired half the staff already. Yes they will be merging servers but we do not know how many people are currently playing. Not enough or EA wouldn't be pushing for FTP and the staff wouldn't have all been fired.

Rift has done very well, definately making a profit, lots of people playing and funding another game. And yet it too had to merge servers within the first couple of months and has since stopped growing.

LOTRO has done very well. The biggest IP in the entire world, and it limped along in that "yeah its kind of doing ok" state until it went FTP. The biggest IP. In. The. World. And its "doing ok". Not even better than many pre 2004 MMOs.

EQ2 has done very well. EQ2 wasn't a WoW clone.

Aion did not do well in the west but on the world market has done very well, one of the most played games in the world.

So yes most games have done quite well.  Some haven't, some have. Most haven't.

Most games have just as high a population as SWG, Daoc and AC. That's not a good thing, considering how large everyone claims the market is now, and how much more money modern MMos take to develop.

Growing population is a very good indication of success but is not the only one.  It's been the primary marker since this genre existed. Once growth stops, decline sets in, and decline is not a recipe for the future. The best you can hope for is to stabalize. Modern MMOs aren't built to plant roots in and keep a steady community. They're built for people to burn through and leave. Besides it really isn't realistic to expect a game to hold onto millions of subscribers, however they should be prepared for them. If the game is good, people will stay. They're the ones who shot for the millions with their huge budget WoW clones. If they had a more modest budget and went for a smaller more dedicated crowd they would have done better. People who like WoW... play WoW. Those that don't, won't stick around long in clones like LotRO and SWTOR. .

Most of the games today have the same population as the old games. That's really, like I said, NOT a good thing. DAoC's 30 man team and budget of 1 million has the same subs as a game with 250 devs and a budget of 100 million?.  Not EQ good, but swg, daoc and ac good. 

The WoW model has been a thorough failure.

  VengeSunsoar

Elite Member

Joined: 3/10/04
Posts: 4827

Be Brief, Be Bright... Be Gone.

10/08/12 10:22:51 PM#59

The WoW model has been very very very successful.  But it may have runs its course.

We don’t know they did spend 300 million, that is just a number thrown out by the forums.  The most common numbers thrown around are 100-200 million, but 300 million is spouted by people looking to exaggerate claims to make a false point. 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Star_Wars:_The_Old_Republic

http://herocomplex.latimes.com/2012/01/20/star-wars-the-old-republic-the-story-behind-a-galactic-gamble/?utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=twitter&dlvrit=63378#/0

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/12/19/arts/video-games/star-wars-the-old-republic-vs-world-of-warcraft-online.html?_r=2&pagewanted=1

http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/entertainmentnewsbuzz/2012/01/star-wars-old-republic-cost.html

The only thing we know is they spent a lot.  And it probably wasn’t enough for them to keep the staff, however we dont’ know how many they actually have now.

Laying off staff after a project is done is actually very common.

Yes Rift did have to merge servers. However as I stated merging servers after selling millions of units is not unusual.  Nor would it be realistic to believe they could keep that many units.  Rift does have a healthy population and it is funding another game, it is successful.

Nothing about Lotro has limped along.  It did very well before f2p and by all accounts is doing in better after f2p.  Definately better than most pre 2004 MMO’s, not EQ or UO, but better than the others.  In 2010 Lotro was reputed to be the 3rd most played MMO by the NDP group

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Lord_of_the_Rings_Online:_Shadows_of_Angmar

EQ2 may not have started as a WoW clone but it went through a number of changes since then. Today it is as much a WoW clone as any of the others.  Which means it isn't because the word is stupid.  EQ2 has as much in common with WoW as those other games.

So yes most games have done well.  You are just too full of hate to recognize it.

Yes growing populations are the primary marker, but several early games did not have continuously growing populations either, Daoc for one.  Stable populations and profit are also strong indicatorsm and many/most have done that.  It is not realistic to expect a game to sustain millions of subscribers.  So the game will lose subs from the initial launch.  Expecting anything else is just foolish.  But not planning for a lot on launch is also foolish.

Yes it would be nice to have more.  But the gamers

Quit worrying about other players in a game and just play.

  ESSKA

Novice Member

Joined: 11/08/06
Posts: 105

10/08/12 10:30:41 PM#60
Rose colored glasses everywhere. The old MMORPG model would not do well with how players have changed since then. And most likely the genre would just cease to exist if they stoped being profitable.
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