Originally posted by InFlamestwo
Vanguard: saga of fucking heroes. It's too many restrictions, which also restricts players from being attracted to the game, which then leaves SoE with a game that a minority wants to play and without profit they can't update the game with new content. With no new content the players will leave the game, when players leave the game, Vanguard will die and never come back again unless they spend their time to revamp the game with new graphics, graphic models, new quest system, faster/better combat etc.

Uhh, such harsh restrictions like.... um... well let's see.. they don't restrict the zones... or the quests... or the raids... or the dungeons.. or the classes... or the levels...or the diplomacy... or the crafting...hmm, they restrict 1/100th of the loot, which you can unlock for 25cents. I guess that's harsh, huh? And you have less inventory space. Aaand...thats about it. 

Some people, yeesh.

The Western MMO F2P are all crap, seriously.

They have nothing in common with TRUE F2P Asian games, where all the content is available to you as long as you have time.

The cash shop in Asian games sell Boost Potions and Equipment, which is the best way to go IMO.

If you have time you can get your Armor by playing, otherwise if you have little time to play you can buy it on the shop.

That's how it should be.

So in Asian MMO all content is available for FREE, with the shop as a "shortcut" tool.

In the Western MMOs instead, they block the actual content which you have to pay for if you want to unlock it.

Not good...........

Why is Star Trek Online on this list?  They have an excellent free to play plan, one of the best ones on the market.  The cash shop, however, not so much (why do I get the feeling that it is only on this list BECAUSE of the cash shop), but a cash shop and free to play plan are different things.

Right?

Originally posted by ste2000

The Western MMO F2P are all crap, seriously.

They have nothing in common with TRUE F2P Asian games, where all the content is available to you as long as you have time.

The cash shop in Asian games sell Boost Potions and Equipment, which is the best way to go IMO.

If you have time you can get your Armor by playing, otherwise if you have little time to play you can buy it on the shop.

That's how it should be.

 

So in Asian MMO all content is available for FREE, with the shop as a "shortcut" tool.

In the Western MMOs instead, they block the actual content which you have to pay for if you want to unlock it.

Not good...........

Holy Moses, I could not disagree more. The notion of "shortcut tools" or pay-2-win cash shops is an absolute red flag to me that it's not a game I want to invest any time with. I don't want to waste my time with a player community that's too lazy to earn their rewards or levels, neither do I want to be lorded over by dilitantes who buy up monumental equipment and sucki the fun out of PvP for those who've actually taken time to play the game. P2W financing strategies cater to the lazy and ego-challenged, and in almost every case end up costing players much more than had they paid to unlock game content. 

Originally posted by DavisFlight

Originally posted by InFlamestwo
Vanguard: saga of fucking heroes. It's too many restrictions, which also restricts players from being attracted to the game, which then leaves SoE with a game that a minority wants to play and without profit they can't update the game with new content. With no new content the players will leave the game, when players leave the game, Vanguard will die and never come back again unless they spend their time to revamp the game with new graphics, graphic models, new quest system, faster/better combat etc.

Uhh, such harsh restrictions like.... um... well let's see.. they don't restrict the zones... or the quests... or the raids... or the dungeons.. or the classes... or the levels...or the diplomacy... or the crafting...hmm, they restrict 1/100th of the loot, which you can unlock for 25cents. I guess that's harsh, huh? And you have less inventory space. Aaand...thats about it. 

 

Some people, yeesh.

They do restrict almost all classes and races or did they make it to where you could play them all past lvl 20 besides the 6 classes and races they allow. And saying they only block you out of 1/100th of equipment is a joke my lvl 30 bard can not use most items I find cause I need to sub and I can only use quest items if I follow the path they tell me to cause they have not fixed the items from more then half the quests in the game. I even started a new toon and got them a half elf monk to lvl 25 and am not happy with there F2P. I think its great we get to play in all the stuff the game has but cutting out classes races and what not from those that bought the game is kinda lame I could really care less about gear but they also limit mounts to where I can't use any better mount in the game then a basic one all others are sub only same with ships oh and your can craft but still can not use everything you craft same with diplomicy is cut off cause of gear restrictions that then cuts most players out of contnet as well cause you cant do everything in the game with out gear.

And those who say you just pay a small fee to unlock gear at max lvl yeah thats $10 to $15 dollars to unlock a whole set of gear and then a mount for $20 that flys and a ship if you want one is another $20 so thats $55 dollars per toon where in games like DDO and Lotro once you buy the content its open for your whole account I own all of DDO content and I only paid up to Redfens release all others was from TP earned on one toon pplaying to lvl 20 that includes the new expansion and in Lotro I own all content up to ROI and will most likely get the next one with the 18,000tp earned from playing I only bought upto Moria and I got it for 10 dollars all other content was with TP. STO I have to lvl 50 toons one FeD one Klingon both in maxed out ships only ever bought the game never subbed and I have the CE of it. I also own all of EQ2's expasions and am a FTP player and not once subbed sense FTP release. DCUO again own all content and FTP player with 6 toons 3 in end game gear. But I dont like how VG and EQ2 lock races and classes on stuff that comes with the purchase of most games.

Originally posted by Aelious
Truly free to play games will be of less quality or close because you need to cover costs. It's a sliding scale and you can't have both nor should you expect it. If I'm going to play for free I'll take a quality deep game with restrictions rather that a shallow one with a truly free to play model.
 

Allods Online was an excellent game, despite being free to play.  It was set to be the WoW killer before everyone started thinking Guild Wars 2 would be the WoW killer.

Then the cash shop happened, and it tanked.

Allods Online has an excellent free to play plan as well, but a crappy cash shop (or at least previously crappy, as the original cash shop problem turned me off Allods for good, so I don't know how the cash shop is nowadays).

Also, I have one word that completely disproves your "free to play games are always of worse quality than buy to pay or subscription based  MMOs" theory: Alganon.

Originally posted by Daneril
Lotro is by far the worst. After doing the starting area, you cant do ANYTHING at all without paying. Everquest 2 is pretty bad as well. Especially end game as you can only equip treasured armor and weapons.

Yeah people that defend the Lotro system are nuts.  I did the starting area hit the no content (other than mob grinding) wall and immediately quit.  I can't imagine mob grinding for days and days just so I can do some lame quests in one zone.  

I also understand people not liking the SOE system, but at least you can do the quests and use some of the loot.  Hell you can play EQ1 for a very long time and not pay a cent until the last ten levels.

Originally posted by Aelious
ste2000

And do you notice a difference in production quality? If you really don't notice a difference between the western free to play conversions and "true" F2P asian games then I would be shocked.

It doesn't matter really, because that's not the point, but anyway new Asian MMOs have good AAA credential nowadays.

The matter is another.

If you call a game Free to Play, it should be just that. All content Asian MMO is Free to Play and the shop is OPTIONAL.

In Western MMOs you have limited access to all content and you NEED to pay in order to access it, using a shop is NOT AN  OPTION if you want to enjoy all the content.

And by the way I am in favour of Subscription based MMO, in fact I hate the F2P model, both the Asian and the Western.

I think a game is a game, you should play it as it is, you should not buy stuff on a shop to enhance your gaming experience.

But at least Asian F2P games are honest, they are really F2P, but if you wanna cheat you can use the shop (You don't have to though).

Western ones force you to buy content if you want to enjoy the game in full, so it is not FREE to play because you have no option but to buy blocks of content.

They should be called TRY BEFORE YOU BUY (TBB), because they are extended trials, the game is not entirely accessible.

Originally posted by nolic1

Originally posted by DavisFlight

Originally posted by InFlamestwo
Vanguard: saga of fucking heroes. It's too many restrictions, which also restricts players from being attracted to the game, which then leaves SoE with a game that a minority wants to play and without profit they can't update the game with new content. With no new content the players will leave the game, when players leave the game, Vanguard will die and never come back again unless they spend their time to revamp the game with new graphics, graphic models, new quest system, faster/better combat etc.

Uhh, such harsh restrictions like.... um... well let's see.. they don't restrict the zones... or the quests... or the raids... or the dungeons.. or the classes... or the levels...or the diplomacy... or the crafting...hmm, they restrict 1/100th of the loot, which you can unlock for 25cents. I guess that's harsh, huh? And you have less inventory space. Aaand...thats about it. 

 

Some people, yeesh.

And those who say you just pay a small fee to unlock gear at max lvl yeah thats $10 to $15 dollars to unlock a whole set of gear and then a mount for $20 that flys and a ship if you want one is another $20 so thats $55 dollars per toon

Stopped reading here, considering each piece of gear takes 25 cents and a character will generally only have 15 items. And that's only if you use the epic level stuff, which is not necessary at all the complete the content, considering they've bumped all normal loot. You're just paying for sparkles.

Worst:  Wizard 101.  Classic example of Pay2Win for F2P.  I don't mind locking areas for F2P players but don't send them to those areas on quests and not allow them to do said quests unless they pay.

Best:  LotRO.  At least when I was playing up until about 2 months ago.  At least with that one you can go into locked areas to do the quests your are sent on (epic quests), and you can just go into the area to kill things if that's what you want.  Plus you have the option of grinding TP to unlock those areas.  I'd say that's a pretty good deal for F2P.

Originally posted by Mardukk

Yeah people that defend the Lotro system are nuts.  I did the starting area hit the no content (other than mob grinding) wall and immediately quit.  I can't imagine mob grinding for days and days just so I can do some lame quests in one zone.  

I also understand people not liking the SOE system, but at least you can do the quests and use some of the loot.  Hell you can play EQ1 for a very long time and not pay a cent until the last ten levels.

Nuts here then (teamed with evolver) :)

LotRO's system is great if you're a former player. And if you're a newcomer... well, then it's still free, if you don't mind the grind, and you know the ropes. There are even f2p kins, and I know a few players who unlocked everything they needed for free. (luckily I'm a former vip, so I don't have to grind to enjoy the game)

The worst one, I think is Age of Conan. I love the game, but the fp2 conversion was a failure... It didn't bring in new players (it's limitations are worse than the unlimited trial was prior f2p), and it didn't make a large extra income to FC, because the store is pretty lame too (very few services, a lot of fluff, and everything is overpriced).

Actually, before f2p, with the unlimited trial I could get 4 buddies ingame (3 of them subscribed). After the f2p conversion I tried to show it a few people, everyone's left before level10...

(I even sent a mail to FC, that they increase the starting bag at least with a few more spaces, because if a newcomer saw that during the tutorial, at level 5 he/she fills the inventory, it's obvious that his/her game will be mostly a constant inventory-management -> they leave :I )

Originally posted by ste2000

Originally posted by Aelious
ste2000

And do you notice a difference in production quality? If you really don't notice a difference between the western free to play conversions and "true" F2P asian games then I would be shocked.

It doesn't matter really, because that's not the point, but anyway new Asian MMOs have good AAA credential nowadays.

 

The matter is another.

If you call a game Free to Play, it should be just that. All content Asian MMO is Free to Play and the shop is OPTIONAL.

In Western MMOs you have limited access to all content and you NEED to pay in order to access it, using a shop is NOT AN  OPTION if you want to enjoy all the content.

 

And by the way I am in favour of Subscription based MMO, in fact I hate the F2P model, both the Asian and the Western.

I think a game is a game, you should play it as it is, you should not buy stuff on a shop to enhance your gaming experience.

But at least Asian F2P games are honest, they are really F2P, but if you wanna cheat you can use the shop (You don't have to though).

Western ones force you to buy content if you want to enjoy the game in full, so it is not FREE to play because you have no option but to buy blocks of content.

They should be called TRY BEFORE YOU BUY (TBB), because they are extended trials, the game is not entirely accessible.

The new true F2P asian games have gotten better graphics but that's about it.

If your beef is the word "free to play" being used for games that have restrictions on content or features than I can see that.  I think SoE should take out the period and say simply "Free to play your way" because it makes a lot more sense.  In the end you get what you pay for.  Want a game that provides everything up front without things you "need", don't expect very much.

I would argue that putting powerful items up to strait buy instead of getting them in the field is restricting play depending on how easy it is to get those items otherwise.  Especially in a game that has PvP, a good vehicle for needing those items, you really wouldn't feel like it was "free to play".  Yet both cases are just one is lower quality and one is higher.  I understand that the "feeling" when playing a game could be soured by seeing locked out bags or locked out quests but I think we're getting a little entitled towards these western conversions.

Originally posted by MadDemon64

Why is Star Trek Online on this list?  They have an excellent free to play plan, one of the best ones on the market.  The cash shop, however, not so much (why do I get the feeling that it is only on this list BECAUSE of the cash shop), but a cash shop and free to play plan are different things.

Right?

You mean Lockbox Online perhaps?

+ Of course cash shop is part of business model of every game that have cash shop. Be it f2p or freemium or even p2p and game's model is judged along with it.