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The Pub at MMORPG.COM  » Pathfinder Online, why it will fail, and why you shouldn't give them any money...

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30 posts found
  Dulu

Novice Member

Joined: 2/09/06
Posts: 59

 
OP  10/08/12 3:59:10 PM#1

So, I was checking out Pathfinder Online... They have no game footage on display yet, but they're asking for money. Apparently, investors only want to invest in a company that is going the "traditional route" and making games like "WoW 1.5" (Their words, video attached)

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r4lV4pnzAvc

 

 

Well, I did some research on the company, and this is what I found... Apparently, they are hiring, but only people who have worked on plopping out the same old trash we've seen for literally the past 5 years. They won't consider anyone who has worked in the field prior to WoW, or is a fresh Grad like myself.

I just found it funny. These people are not interested in making a revolutionary game. They want to make money. They can't get investors, so they want YOU to give them your money.

Job Posting for Game Designer, PVE:

"we're particularly interested in applicants who have worked on an MMO that was actually shipped and operated as a live game.

Knowledge of the Pathfinder intellectual property is a plus but not a requirement.  A history as a tabletop hobby gamer is also a plus, not a requirement.


Candidate should be able to show a prior work on scripted multi-part encounter designs

What are my new job responsibilities?

  • Design create immersive and interesting missions and quests for characters involved in many different kinds of activities including crafting, transportation, diplomacy, harvesting, territorial defense, exploration and monster hunting

What are my new job requirements?

  • Prior experience working with a shipped videogame title
  • Ability to clearly communicate needs and processes to programmers and artists

What would set me apart from other candidates?

  • Prior experience working on an MMO operating in a live environment in the past 5 years
  • Previous work developing components for a large videogame title especially an MMO"
  tawess

Elite Member

Joined: 3/24/05
Posts: 1977

10/08/12 4:05:28 PM#2

I think you read way to much in to it. OFc they are looking for people who have some REAL experience seeing as how many so called MMO's that never see the light of day.

 

That was in my mind a pretty standard job advertisment. And if you have the skills and can back that up you still have a good chance. But the fact is that "game developer" are dime a dossen these days due to every college and university offering some form of courses in game design.

Tomas Soapbox

This have been a good conversation

  Phlacc

Novice Member

Joined: 5/25/04
Posts: 38

10/08/12 4:06:31 PM#3

 

I watched the video and read your post adn checked out their "job postings", and it sounds like to me, that they are just trying to get people who are expirenced in making an MMO.

 

I think you are misreading them wrong, or are just upset that they won't consider you?

I think you are right about them not having game footage yet though, they should have some sort of video demo so people can see what their vision is before they decide to invest.

 

 

 

  Dulu

Novice Member

Joined: 2/09/06
Posts: 59

 
OP  10/08/12 4:09:51 PM#4

Phlacc, read my post again.

 

I would never work for a company like this, I'm happily employed. After watching the video of them begging for money ($100,000 donations ONLY please, thanks! - Goblinworks), I just wanted to do some research, to see what kind of people they were hiring.

 

Well, it turns out, they're not looking for visionaries, or talent. They're looking for people who can produce the same shit games we already have.

 

They can't have it both ways. They can't say "We're making something new and revolutionary." and say "We're only hiring people who have experience in producing trash for mass consumption to make as much money as possible."

 

They simply don't jive.

  Cuathon

Advanced Member

Joined: 10/24/04
Posts: 2254

Draw Something is now an MMO. God has forsaken us.

10/08/12 4:41:55 PM#5

Do you understand that the coder isn't what makes the game revolutionary? The designer does that. It doesn't matter if you were a coder on a WoW clone or on ATITD, you aren't the designer. And furthermore having made such a mainstream MMO says nothing about your desires anyways. I know many people who worked on commercial titles who hated it and wanted to make cool games but they weren't lead designers so they didn't have a choice.

I am somewhat suspicious of Pathfinder. Generally you need a working demo or in progress engine like Repopulation has before you start begging for cash.

  L0C0Man

Advanced Member

Joined: 1/30/09
Posts: 919

10/08/12 4:52:00 PM#6
Agree with previous post, coders don't really have much to do with the actual design of the game which is what they're trying to do different, that comes down to the designers of the game. Also, I don't see them having working on a WoW like MMO as a requirement, the actual requirement they post is experience with a shipped videogame title. Of course they're going to give preference to aplicants that have worked semi-recently with games in the same genre of the one they're trying to do (MMOs) since that shows they're familiar with the current technologies. Plus from what I've read they're saying that they prefer someone that has worked in an MMO operating live in the last 5 years, not one that was released in those 5 years.... that could mean anything from UO and onwards (or whatever MMO is there that was released before UO and was still running in the last 5 years).

What can men do against such reckless hate?

  Dulu

Novice Member

Joined: 2/09/06
Posts: 59

 
OP  10/08/12 4:56:06 PM#7
Originally posted by Cuathon

Do you understand that the coder isn't what makes the game revolutionary? The designer does that. It doesn't matter if you were a coder on a WoW clone or on ATITD, you aren't the designer. And furthermore having made such a mainstream MMO says nothing about your desires anyways. I know many people who worked on commercial titles who hated it and wanted to make cool games but they weren't lead designers so they didn't have a choice.

I am somewhat suspicious of Pathfinder. Generally you need a working demo or in progress engine like Repopulation has before you start begging for cash.

 

 

Do you understand this is the job posting for the DESIGNER? Not the CODER.

 

 Read the post.

  Quirhid

Hard Core Member

Joined: 1/28/05
Posts: 5512

Correcting wrongs on the Internet...

10/08/12 5:12:05 PM#8

Experience in the past 5 years means you are in touch with how things work today - as opposed to 10 years ago. A lot has changed since then: the technology and how things are run and made. And demanding that they've shipped a finished product is a huge thing since practically anyone can start something but never finish it. They want someone who has experience in carrying the product through from development to launch.

You're a grad student. Likely you have no experience of the sort.

I also think Pathfinder Online is fishy, but your reasons are just... forget it. Just think it through before you get worked up about nothing.

I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky

  rungard

Novice Member

Joined: 7/25/03
Posts: 1037

The Sandbox Foundation does not exist!

10/08/12 5:13:45 PM#9

[mod edit] The add asked for a game designer not a lead designer. They need someone who has done this before in a recent game to do all the grunt work for them.They dont want to babysit you. They cant afford to have anyone untested at all, and the last thing they probabally want is a visionary to collide with their current visionary. You seem like trouble to me already. I wouldnt hire you if this is what happens everytime something doesnt go your way.

suck it up, get some experience, probabally as a tester and make some of your own designs and submit them to companies.

if your designs are good, someone will catch on to them.

[mod edit]

 

  DOGMA1138

Apprentice Member

Joined: 8/25/11
Posts: 477

10/08/12 5:13:55 PM#10

How old are you? jokes a side have you ever been in a job interview and they did not want relevant past experience?

Q: Do you have any relevant programming experience?

A: Yes back in 1972 i used to program COBOL apps

Q: What have you done since?

A: I've been a professional dog walker

Do you think this will get you hired? Any company which is hiring needs people with relevant experience, the fact that they've worked on games you might not like does not matter, heck even if they took the lead designer of WoW and made him make a new game it does not mean it will be WoW 2.0.

People with the right skills, and good ideas can make any thing they want it might be WoW 2.0, it might not be, but the fact that they are hiring people with relevant experience has nothing to do with it.

 

  Loktofeit

Elite Member

Joined: 1/13/10
Posts: 12113

Currently playing EVE, SMITE, Wildstar, and Combat Arms

10/08/12 5:15:02 PM#11
Originally posted by Dulu

Phlacc, read my post again.

I would never work for a company like this, I'm happily employed. After watching the video of them begging for money ($100,000 donations ONLY please, thanks! - Goblinworks), I just wanted to do some research, to see what kind of people they were hiring.

Well, it turns out, they're not looking for visionaries, or talent. They're looking for people who can produce the same shit games we already have.

They can't have it both ways. They can't say "We're making something new and revolutionary." and say "We're only hiring people who have experience in producing trash for mass consumption to make as much money as possible."

They simply don't jive.

As others have said, you are reading way too much into it. They didn't say they wanted only people with experience the past five years but that it would be a plus to have had experience working on MMOs in the past five years as well as the other credentials.

Look, we get it - you feel they don't want you and you're upset. However you've got a very apparent sour grapes thing going on here. Personally, I put a lot more credence in the past history, past successes and present development blogs/articles of the team than in the very odd takeaway you present here from one misinterpreted job description.

"And wikipedia is as accurate as Britannica. Wikipedia is very reliable. You would be hard pressed to find a more reliable source for these kinds of things." -fovoroth

  Dulu

Novice Member

Joined: 2/09/06
Posts: 59

 
OP  10/08/12 5:18:07 PM#12

Let me break this down one final time.

 

 

This company is saying "We want to revolutionize the MMO market. We want to make something unlike anything ever released".

 

Then, when you dig deeper, they are explicitly stating they will ONLY hire designers who have experience making the very thing they are trying to revolutionize.

 

Do you people want the same DESIGNER who worked on Warhammer Online, Age of Conan, etc designing new games?

 

 

Does no one on this site have a sense of irony, or a hypocrisy detector?

  Dulu

Novice Member

Joined: 2/09/06
Posts: 59

 
OP  10/08/12 5:19:58 PM#13
Originally posted by Loktofeit
Originally posted by Dulu

Phlacc, read my post again.

I would never work for a company like this, I'm happily employed. After watching the video of them begging for money ($100,000 donations ONLY please, thanks! - Goblinworks), I just wanted to do some research, to see what kind of people they were hiring.

Well, it turns out, they're not looking for visionaries, or talent. They're looking for people who can produce the same shit games we already have.

They can't have it both ways. They can't say "We're making something new and revolutionary." and say "We're only hiring people who have experience in producing trash for mass consumption to make as much money as possible."

They simply don't jive.

As others have said, you are erading way too much into it. They didn't say they wanted only people with expewrience the past five years but that it would be a plus to have had experience working on MMOs in the past five years as well as the other credentials.

Look, we get it - you feel they don't want you and you're upset. However you've got a very apparent sour grapes thing going on here. Personally, I put a lot more credience in the past history, past successes and present development blogs/articles of the team than in the very odd takeaway you present here from one misinterpreted job description.

 

 

[mod edit]

 

My gripe has nothing to do with not being hired as the PVE designer for some trash game, which is clearly a scam to make money.

 

My gripe is that they're advertising one thing, and then doing the complete opposite. They're lying to people to get money.

  DOGMA1138

Apprentice Member

Joined: 8/25/11
Posts: 477

10/08/12 5:30:48 PM#14

Yeah asking for a guy to designe quests  that actually worked on another game before is a horrible decision...

Specific quests and PVE encounters are not whats wrong with games these days, in fact that's the only thing that is keeping some games today alive.

WoW's problems have nothing to do with the quality of specific quests, and PVE encounters those for the most part have actually significantly improved over the years, while the whole experience of the game has diminished atleast in the eyes of "hardcore" fans.

I don't think any one would complain if you could still get some of the really cool quests and encounters we got with the expansions if the game was still as hard and demanding as it was during vanilla, and TBC.

 

P.S. i would suggest to you to go outside, get some real job exprience, and then complain.

 

  Pratt2112

Elite Member

Joined: 2/12/12
Posts: 1158

10/08/12 5:50:02 PM#15

I'm not seeing anything that is "clearly" them saying want someone who can create another WoW clone.

The experience working in the past 5 years, to me, is them saying "is up-to-date and knowledgable about modern technologies and methods applied to developing and running a MMORPG in the last 5 years." Things change and progress and they would, logically, want someone whos experience and knowledge of the field isn't out-dated and irrelevant.

If I saw something like "experience and working knowledge of popular, casual friendly MMOs of the last 5 years, specifically World of Warcraft, Warhammer, Lord of The Rings, etc" then I could agree that, yes, that does seem a bit fishy.

But I don't see that.

They're placing a desired window on when the applicant actually worked in the field.

For example. I used to be a web designer. I got out of the field when HTML 3.0 was just gaining presence. I haven't looked at it since. If I applied for a job that required knowledge and hands-on experience of HTML 5.0 and other current technologies, I'd be up the creek. I clearly wouldn't fit their requirements. Anything I could contribute would be out-dated the moment I wrote the first line of HTML or CSS.

I think it's the same thing here.

I agree with others in this thread, OP. I think you're reading far too much into it, and barking up the wrong tree.

"Devs need to stop trying to make MMOs for people who don't like MMOs" - thevampirelematt/Reddit

  laokoko

Advanced Member

Joined: 9/14/09
Posts: 1895

10/08/12 5:54:03 PM#16

That is because you think designer actually design game.

The actual job for a designer is to make sure the game works. 

They dont' need ideas.  Internet is full of ideas.  Look around this forum.  It is full of people who think they should be game designer. 

  VengeSunsoar

Advanced Member

Joined: 3/10/04
Posts: 4767

Be Brief, Be Bright... Be Gone.

10/08/12 6:00:15 PM#17
Originally posted by Dulu

So, I was checking out Pathfinder Online... They have no game footage on display yet, but they're asking for money. Apparently, investors only want to invest in a company that is going the "traditional route" and making games like "WoW 1.5" (Their words, video attached)

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r4lV4pnzAvc

 

 

Well, I did some research on the company, and this is what I found... Apparently, they are hiring, but only people who have worked on plopping out the same old trash we've seen for literally the past 5 years. They won't consider anyone who has worked in the field prior to WoW, or is a fresh Grad like myself.

I just found it funny. These people are not interested in making a revolutionary game. They want to make money. They can't get investors, so they want YOU to give them your money.

Job Posting for Game Designer, PVE:

"we're particularly interested in applicants who have worked on an MMO that was actually shipped and operated as a live game.

Knowledge of the Pathfinder intellectual property is a plus but not a requirement.  A history as a tabletop hobby gamer is also a plus, not a requirement.


Candidate should be able to show a prior work on scripted multi-part encounter designs

What are my new job responsibilities?

  • Design create immersive and interesting missions and quests for characters involved in many different kinds of activities including crafting, transportation, diplomacy, harvesting, territorial defense, exploration and monster hunting

What are my new job requirements?

  • Prior experience working with a shipped videogame title
  • Ability to clearly communicate needs and processes to programmers and artists

What would set me apart from other candidates?

  • Prior experience working on an MMO operating in a live environment in the past 5 years
  • Previous work developing components for a large videogame title especially an MMO"

Didn't watch the video, maybe it says it there.

But nowhere in your post showing the job description do they state, "They won't consider anyone who has worked in the field prior to WoW..."  As you imply.

Where did you get that from?

So far everything else seems pretty reasonable. 

Quit worrying about other players in a game and just play.

  Talmien

Advanced Member

Joined: 2/16/09
Posts: 75

10/08/12 6:03:45 PM#18

I see nothing wrong with that job application. They're looking for expierenced people. People who have expierence have worked on games before, specifically MMOs. And they don't want someone who just programs in their basement claiming they've worked on a MMO. They want known and shipped titles as references.

A person who created WoW can go on to make a different MMO with the expierence they've gained. It doesn't take some fresh 22 year old out of college who wants everyone to listen to their ideas to do it. Fact is, in the game industry, game designer is not a entry level position. You work either in QA, Sound, Art, or Programming, get expierence and hope someone likes you so you can become a designer on the next title.

  Quirhid

Hard Core Member

Joined: 1/28/05
Posts: 5512

Correcting wrongs on the Internet...

10/08/12 6:09:03 PM#19
Originally posted by Dulu
Originally posted by Loktofeit

My gripe has nothing to do with not being hired as the PVE designer for some trash game, which is clearly a scam to make money.

 

My gripe is that they're advertising one thing, and then doing the complete opposite. They're lying to people to get money.

They are not. They are simply looking for a person who has up to date experience in the field - and that means in the last 5 years. Past that is no longer up to date.

I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky

  laokoko

Advanced Member

Joined: 9/14/09
Posts: 1895

10/08/12 6:10:01 PM#20
Originally posted by Talmien

I see nothing wrong with that job application. They're looking for expierenced people. People who have expierence have worked on games before, specifically MMOs. And they don't want someone who just programs in their basement claiming they've worked on a MMO. They want known and shipped titles.

A person who created WoW can go on to make a different MMO with the expierence they've gained. It doesn't take some fresh 22 year old out of college who wants everyone to listen to their ideas to do it. Fact is, in the game industry, game designer is not a entry level position. You work either in QA, Sound, Art, or Programming, get expierence and hope someone likes you so you can become a designer on the next title.

To the OP.  Read this guys reply.  You dont' just walk in to a game studio and say I should be the game designer.  You get experience in the field doing entry level position first.

The "technology" have also changed substantialy in the past 5 years.  Besides the actually game design, you need to have knowledge on the tools that creat game. 

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