Trending Games | WildStar | World of Warcraft | Elder Scrolls Online | Guild Wars 2

  Network:  FPSguru RTSguru
Login:  Password:   Remember?  
Show Quick Gamelist Jump to Random Game
Members:2,638,406 Users Online:0
Games:678  Posts:6,073,378
Recent forum postsRSS
Active threads
Cloud view
List all forums
General Forums
Developers Corner General Discussion
Popular Game Forums
Click a status to find game forum
Game Forums
Click a letter to find game forum
A-C
2029 Online 2112: Revolution 2Moons 4Story 8BitMMO 9 Dragons A Mystical Land A Tale in the Desert III A3 ACE Online ARGO Online Aberoth Absolute Force Online Absolute Terror Achaea Adellion Aerrevan Aetolia, the Midnight Age Age of Armor Age of Conan Age of Empires Online Age of Mourning Age of Wulin Age of Wushu Aida Arenas Aika Aion Albion Online Alganon All Points Bulletin (APB) Allods Online Altis Gates Amazing World Anarchy Online Ancients of Fasaria Andromeda 5 Angels Online Anime Trumps Anmynor Anno Online Applo Arcane Hearts Arcane Legends ArchLord ArcheAge Archeblade Archlord X Asda 2 Asda Story Ashen Empires Asheron's Call Asheron's Call 2 Astera Online Astonia III Astro Empires Astro Lords: Oort CLoud Asura Force Atlantica Online Atriarch Aura Kingdom Aurora Blade Auto Assault Avatar Star Battle Dawn Battle Dawn Galaxies Battle for Graxia Battle of 3 Kingdoms Battle of the Immortals Battlecruiser Online Battlestar Galactica Online Battlestar Reloaded Beyond Protocol Black Aftermath Black Desert Black Gold Black Prophecy Black Prophecy Tactics: Nexus Conflict Blacklight Retribution Blade & Soul Blade Hunter Blade Wars Blazing Throne Bless Blitz 1941 Blood and Jade Bloodlines Champions Bounty Bay Online Brain Storm Brawl Busters. Brick-Force Bright Shadow Bullet Run Business Tycoon Online CTRacer Cabal Online Caesary Call of Camelot Call of Gods Call of Thrones Camelot Unchained Canaan Online Cardmon Hero Cartoon Universe CasinoRPG Castle Empire Castlot Celtic Heroes Champions Online Champions of Regnum Chaos Online Chrono Tales Citadel of Sorcery CitiesXL Citizen Zero City of Decay City of Heroes City of Steam City of Transformers City of Villains Civilization Online Clan Lord Clash of Clans Cloud Nine Club Penguin Colony of War Command & Conquer: Tiberium Alliances Company of Heroes Online Conquer Online Conquer Online 3 Continent of the Ninth (C9) Core Blaze Core Exiles Corum Online Craft of Gods Crimecraft Crimelife 2 Cronous Crota II Cultures Online Cyber Monster 2 Céiron Wars
D-F
D&D Online DC Universe DK Online DOTA DOTA 2 DUST 514 DV8: Exile Dalethaan Dance Groove Online Dark Age of Camelot Dark Ages Dark Legends Dark Orbit Dark Relic: Prelude Dark Solstice Dark and Light DarkEden Online DarkSpace Darkblood Online Darkfall Darkfall: Unholy Wars Darkwind: War on Wheels Das Tal Dawn of Fantasy Dawntide DayZ Dead Earth Dead Frontier Deco Online Deepworld Defiance Deicide Online Dekaron Demons at the Horizon Desert Operations Destiny Diablo 3 Diamonin Digimon Battle Dino Storm Disciple Divergence Divina Divine Souls Dofus Dominus Online Dragon Ball Online Dragon Born Online Dragon Crusade Dragon Empires Dragon Eternity Dragon Nest Dragon Oath Dragon Pals Dragon Raja Dragon's Call Dragon's Call II Dragon's Prophet DragonSky DragonSoul Dragona Dragonica Dragons and Titans Dream of Mirror Online Dreamland Online Dreamlords: The Reawakening Drift City Duels Dungeon Blitz Dungeon Fighter Online Dungeon Overlord Dungeon Party Dungeon Rampage Dungeon Runners Dynastica Dynasty Warriors Online Dynasty of the Magi EIN (Epicus Incognitus) EVE Online Earth Eternal Earth and Beyond Earthrise Eclipse War Ecol Tactics Online Eden Eternal Einherjar - The Viking's Blood Elder Scrolls Online Eldevin Elf Online Elite: Dangerous Embers of Caerus Emil Chronicle Online Empire Empire & State Empire Craft Empire Universe 3 EmpireQuest Empires of Galldon End of Nations Endless Ages Endless Blue Moon Online Endless Online Entropia Universe EpicDuel Erebus: Travia Reborn Eredan Eternal Blade Eternal Lands Eternal Saga Ether Fields Ether Saga Online Eudemons Online EuroGangster EverEmber Online EverQuest Next EverQuest Online Adventures Evernight Everquest Everquest II Everquest Next: Landmark Evony Exarch Exorace F.E.A.R. Online Face of Mankind Fairyland Online Fall of Rome Fallen Earth Fallen Sword Fallout Online Family Guy Online Fantage Fantasy Earth Zero Fantasy Realm Online Fantasy Tales Online Fantasy Worlds: Rhynn Faunasphere Faxion Online Ferentus Ferion Fiesta Online Final Fantasy XI Final Fantasy XIV: A Realm Reborn Firefall Fists of Fu Florensia Flyff Football Manager Live Football Superstars Force of Arms Forge Forsaken World Fortnite Fortuna Forum for Discussion of Everlight Freaky Creatures Free Realms Freesky Online Freeworld Fung Wan Online Furcadia Fury Fusion Fall
G-L
GalaXseeds Galactic Command Online Game of Thrones: Seven Kingdoms Gameglobe Gate To Heavens Gates of Andaron Gatheryn Gauntlet Gekkeiju Online Ghost Online Ghost Recon Online Gladiatus Glitch Global Agenda Global Soccer Gloria Victis Glory of Gods GoGoRacer Goal Line Blitz Gods and Heroes GodsWar Online Golemizer Golf Star GoonZu Online Graal Kingdoms Granado Espada Online Grand Chase Grand Fantasia Grepolis Grimlands Guild Wars Guild Wars 2 Guild Wars Factions Guild Wars Nightfall Habbo Hotel Hailan Rising HaloSphere2 Haven & Hearth Hawken Hearthstone: Heroes of Warcraft Helbreath Hellgate Hellgate: London Hello Kitty Online Hero Online Hero Zero Hero's Journey Hero: 108 Online HeroSmash Heroes & Generals Heroes in the Sky Heroes of Bestia Heroes of Gaia Heroes of Might and Magic Online Heroes of Thessalonica Heroes of Three Kingdoms Heroes of the Storm Hex Holic Online Hostile Space Hunter Blade Huxley Illutia Illyriad Immortals USA Imperator Imperian Inferno Legend Infestation: Survivor Stories Infinite Crisis Infinity Infinity Iris Online Iron Grip: Marauders Irth Worlds Island Forge Islands of War Istaria: Chronicles of the Gifted Jade Dynasty Jagged Alliance Online Juggernaut Jumpgate Jumpgate Evolution KAL Online Kakele Online Kaos War Karos Online Kartuga Kicks Online King of Kings 3 Kingdom Heroes Kingdom Under Fire II Kingdom of Drakkar Kingory Kings and Legends KingsRoad Kitsu Saga Kiwarriors Knight Age Knight Online Knights of Dream City Kothuria Kung Foo! Kunlun Online L.A.W. LEGO Universe La Tale Land of Chaos Online Lands of Hope: Phoenix Edition LastChaos League of Angels League of Legends - Clash of Fates Legend of Edda: Vengeance Legend of Golden Plume Legend of Katha Legend of Mir 2 Legend of Mir 3 Legendary Champions Lego Minifigures Online Life is Feudal Light of Nova Lime Odyssey Line of Defense Lineage Lineage Eternal: Twilight Resistance Lineage II Linkrealms Loong Online Lord of the Rings Online Lords Online Lost Saga Lucent Heart Lunia Lusternia: Age of Ascension Luvinia World
M-Q
MU Online Mabinogi Maestia: Rise of Keledus MagiKnights Magic Barrage Magic World Online Manga Fighter MapleStory Martial Heroes Marvel Heroes Marvel Super Hero Squad Online Marvel: Avengers Alliance MechWarrior Online Megaten Meridian 59 : Evolution Merlin MetalMercs Metaplace Metin 2 MicroVolts Midkemia Online Might & Magic Heroes: Kingdoms MilMo Minecraft Mini Fighter Minions of Mirth Ministry of War Monato Esprit Monkey King Online Monkey Quest Monster & Me Monster Madness Online MonsterMMORPG Moonlight Online: Tales of Eternal Blood Mordavia Mortal Online Mourning My Lands Myst Online: URU Live Myth Angels Online Myth War Myth War 2 Mytheon Mythic Saga Mythos N.E.O Online NIDA Online Nadirim Naviage: The Power of Capital Navy Field Need for Speed World Nemexia Neo's Land NeoSteam Neocron Nether Neverwinter Nexus: The Kingdom Of The Winds NinjaTrick NosTale Novus Aeterno Oberin Odin Quest Odyssey RPG Ogre Island Omerta 3 Online Boxing Manager Onverse Order & Chaos Online Order of Magic Original Blood Origins Return Origins of Malu Orion's Belt Otherland Forums OverSoul Overkings Oz Online Oz World Pandora Saga Pantheon: Rise of the Fallen Panzar Parabellum Parallel Kingdom Parfait Station Path of Exile Pathfinder Online Perfect World Perpetuum Online Phantasy Star Online 2 Phantasy Star Universe Phoenix Dynasty Online Phylon Pi Story Picaroon Pirate Galaxy Pirate Storm Pirate101 PirateKing Online Pirates of the Burning Sea Pirates of the Caribbean Online Pixie Hollow Planeshift Planet Arkadia Planet Calypso PlanetSide 2 Planetside Planets³ Playboy Manager Pocket Legends Pockie Ninja Pockie Pirates Pockie Saints PoxNora Prime World Prime: Battle for Dominus Priston Tale Priston Tale II Prius Online Project Blackout Project Powder Project Titan Forums Project Wiki Puzzle Pirates Quickhit Football
R-S
R2 Online RAN Online RF Online ROSE Online Rage of 3 Kingdoms Ragnarok Online Ragnarok Online II RaiderZ Rakion Rappelz RappelzSEA Realm Fighter Realm of the Mad God Realm of the Titans Realms Online Reclamation Red Stone Red War: Edem's Curse Regnum Online Remnant Knights Renaissance Repulse Requiem: Memento Mori Rift RiotZone Rise Rise of Dragonian Era Rise of Empire Rise of the Tycoon Rising of King Risk Your Life Rivality Rockfree Rohan: Blood Feud Role Play Worlds Roll n Rock Roma Victor Romadoria Rosh Online Roto X Rubies of Eventide Ruin Online Rumble Fighter Runes of Magic Runescape Rust Rusty Hearts Ryzom S4 League SAGA SD Gundam Capsule Fighter Online SMITE SUN Sagramore Salem SaySayGirls Scarlet Blade Scions of Fate Seal Online: Evolution Second Life Secret of the Solstice Seed Serenia Fantasy Seven Seas Saga Seven Souls Online Sevencore Shadow of Legend Shadowbane Shadowrun Online Shaiya Shattered Galaxy Sho Online Shot Online Shroud of the Avatar SideQuest Siege on Stars Sigonyth: Desert Eternity Silkroad Online Skyblade Skyforge SmashMuck Champions Smoo Online Soldier Front Soul Master Soul Order Online Soul of Guardian Space Heroes Universe Spellcasters Sphere Spiral Knights Spirit Tales Splash Fighters Squad Wars Star Citizen Star Sonata 2 Star Stable Star Supremacy Star Trek Online Star Trek: Infinite Space Star Wars Galaxies Star Wars: Clone Wars Adventures Star Wars: The Old Republic StarQuest Online Stargate Worlds Starlight Story Starpires State of Decay SteelWar Online Stone Age 2 Storybricks Stronghold Kingdoms Sudden Attack Supremacy 1914 Supreme Destiny Sword Girls Sword of Destiny: Rise of Aions SwordX Swords of Heavens Swordsman
T-Z
TERA TS Online Tabula Rasa Tactica Online Tales Runner Tales of Fantasy Tales of Pirates Tales of Pirates II Tales of Solaris Talisman Online Tamer Saga Tank Ace Tantra Online Tatsumaki: Land at War Terra Militaris TerraWorld Online Thang Online The 4th Coming The Agency The Aurora World The Black Watchmen The Chronicle The Chronicles of Spellborn The Crew The Division The Hammers End The Legend of Ares The Lost Titans The Matrix Online The Mighty Quest for Epic Loot The Missing Ink The Mummy Online The Myth of Soma The Pride of Taern The Realm Online The Repopulation The Secret World The Sims Online The Strategems The West Theralon There Therian Saga Thrones of Chaos Tibia Tibia Micro Edition Tiger Knight Titan Siege Titans of Time Toontown Online Top Speed Topia Online Torchlight Total Domination Transformers Universe Traveller AR Travia Online Travian Trials of Ascension Tribal Hero Tribal Wars Tribes Universe Trickster Online Trove Troy Online True Fantasy Live Online Turf Battles Twelve Sky Twelve Sky 2 Twilight War Tynon U.B. Funkeys UFO Online URDEAD Online Ultima Forever: Quest for the Avatar Ultima Online Ultima X: Odyssey Ultimate Naruto Ultimate Soccer Boss Uncharted Waters Online Undercover 2: Merc Wars Underlight Unification Wars Universe Online Utopia Valkyrie Sky Vampire Lord Online Vanguard: Saga of Heroes Vanquish Space Vector City Racers Vendetta Online Victory - Age of Racing Vindictus Virtonomics Vis Gladius Visions of Zosimos VoidExpanse Voyage Century Online W.E.L.L. Online WAR (Warhammer Online) WAR2 Glory WYD Global Wakfu War Thunder War of 2012 War of Angels War of Legends War of Mercenaries War of Thrones War of the Immortals WarFlow Waren Story Wargame1942 Warhammer 40,000: Eternal Crusade Warhammer 40K: Dark Millennium Online Warhammer Online: Wrath of Heroes Warkeepers Warrior Epic Wartune WebLords Wild West Online WildStar Wind of Luck WindSlayer 2 Wings of Destiny Wish Wizard101 Wizardry Online Wizards and Champions Wonder King Wonderland Online World Golf Tour World of Battles World of Darkness World of Heroes World of Kung Fu World of Pirates World of Speed World of Tanks World of Tanks Generals World of Warcraft World of Warplanes World of Warships World of the Living Dead WorldAlpha Wurm Online Xenocell Xiah Xsyon Xulu YS Online Yitien ZU Online Zentia Zero Online Zero Online: The Andromeda Crisis Zodiac Online Zombies Ate My Pizza eRepublik

MMORPG.com Discussion Forums

General Discussion

General Discussion 

News & Features Discussion  » [Editorial] General: How Free-to-Play is Killing Gaming – Part One

7 Pages « 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 » Search
130 posts found
  defector1968

Novice Member

Joined: 6/16/10
Posts: 400

Real Animal lovers are ONLY the vegetarians

10/07/12 4:12:24 AM#101

free to play games always gives to creator lesser money than a subed game. Also gives lesser content to players.

Its a good solution for the companies to keep alive their games.

With so many MMOs these days doesnt killing gaming.

In fact its good for the lovers of a game, without the f2p, they can't continue playing their favorite game.

  Po_gg

Elite Member

Joined: 5/12/10
Posts: 1746

10/07/12 5:42:51 AM#102

F2P won't 'kill gaming', only changing it. 'Only', in huge brackets.

And it's not even some a sudden change, it's quite logical: the playerbase is changing, so the industry follows it. Sure, this change won't be good for us, older ones, but they don't really care... As time goes, we're going slowly out of the market, and the new kids won't mind microtransaction, or f2p, or (sadly) the pay-to-win concept. Actually they're almost 'trained' for it, that they can buy anything right away, and for only a small price (music, xbox marketplace, psn store, etc)

 

But not that's what I wanted to comment, sorry Derek but I laughed at the piracy part so much :) No wonder the first comment by montin was a correction to it right away. What you mentioned with DRM's was the exact opposite, maybe that was the only era where the publishers were able somewhat to fought back.

Piracy was there at Speccy, it was _huge_ at the Commodore era (heck, I could count on one hand the original C64 programs I saw during the 80's), then the BBS's in the early 90's, then with the www. introduction piracy literally exploded... A buddy of mine was a retailer then, with ties to the publishers, the selling numbers were sad... (at least in Eu). Same with the consoles :I

So "Digital piracy had migrated from just music to movies and then to video games." is a  really funny statement...

  racked3d

Novice Member

Joined: 5/18/10
Posts: 5

10/07/12 10:14:26 AM#103
F2P isn't killing games.    Whats killing a lot of them is that F2P realy means P2W . The P2W sys. costs on average 5 - 10 times per month what a P2P with a 15$ per month cost.  So of course F2P got big.  Its the same way a drug dealer works if u think about it.   heres a taste 4 FREE. Then they make u PAY and PAY. So sure there game lasts a few years at best but by then they have raked in a load of cash
 
  daltanious

Hard Core Member

Joined: 4/19/08
Posts: 1564

10/07/12 11:04:09 AM#104
Originally posted by Yakamomoto

"F2P" is mostly a scam. (same goes for "B2P" with cash shop)

If you read "FREE" on the internet, something smells fishy.

I prefer the good old honest subscription model.

 

Agree fully with you. Only positive surprise so far for me is gw2. Still only at lv. 15 with my 8 alts. Incredible game, but at same time unique exception.

  Yanari

Apprentice Member

Joined: 9/22/05
Posts: 9

10/07/12 1:42:35 PM#105
Originally posted by SnarlingWolf
...snip...

To me it has always been easiest to look at all of the other industries out there.

 

We started with pay by minute phone and internet. Choose who you call and when you call but pay for each one. Then people said "You know what would be better? Paying one fee a month and getting to use my phone all I want without worrying about any extra costs".

 

Text messaging came to the world and it was pay by text. Then people said "You know what would be better? Paying one fee a month and getting to text all I want without worrying about any extra costs."

 

The natural progression is for things to go from "Pay for each little thing you want/use" to "Pay for the service and use it all you want". The problem is MMOs started with pay by minute, figured this out and switched early. However, a modern movement has come around where people don't think they should have to pay for anything. People fought to try and allow music sharing for free so they'd never have to pay for music. People actual argue on why it is ok to pirate movies and games because they wouldn't pay for them anyway. People get products that allow them to record all the shows they want while letting them skip the commercials in one push of a button. And people want to be able to get a $100 million + costing game to be free to get into.

 

So companies latched on to this and they look at how people suddenly realized they had spent thousands of dollars on iTunes or on small phone apps and games because at $1 a pop they never thought about it all that much. Now you get it for free but hey why not buy these silly sunglasses for $1? Unfortunately, many gamers are savy enough to see through that so then companies had to switch to selling stuff that was more than just fun, such as pack space/bank space/character slots. So now you get a new game and get 2 character slots when you used to buy a game and get 10.

 

Now companies are moving beyond that to actual stat raising and essentially necessary items to get everyone to pay something. Battlefield Heroes started off selling cosmetic items and wasn't doing so hot. The moment they switch to selling actual better guns and items their sales skyrocketted.

 

What is worse is so many players are insistant that this is the way it should be. They are literally telling companies to find ways to rip them off and make them pay for every little thing.

 

Fortunately 10 years from now there will be the "revolutionary" idea to give you an entire game for one set price and people will find it to be so amazing and wonder why no one thought to do it sooner.

Very well put.  The gaming industry would not be racing to join this model if there weren't thousands upon thousands of naive (or mentally lazy) consumers.  This group of consumers simply isn't doing the math which would show them just how much they are being overcharged.

 

My husband and I bought lifetime accounts for LoTRO upon launch.  It was a $600 investment.  Would we play the game long enough to make this cost effective?  A few simple calculations later:  Yes.

 

The lifetime subscription really isn't the point.  My point is that a smart consumer does the math before clicking the "add to shopping cart" button.

 

Sadly, the game has since gone "Free to play", which has morphed into "Pay to Win" because of the types of items now in the store.  When games move to something with an in-game store, it seems like the entire development focus shifts from creating solid content with which to lure and retain players, to crapping out bling (and stat increases, etc) fast enough to keep the 'shopping as entertainment' crowd happy.

 

The original dev team was either a group of Tolkien fans, or understood that their customer base was going to be made up of many people who knew this lore inside-out & were very protective of it.  My understanding is that many of them have moved to the development of the game that must-not-be-named

 

The current dev team strikes me as Wal-Mart marketing executive types.  Solely profit driven and lacking creativity (and seeing no value in it).

 

It's only we, the customers who can reverse this trend.  I wish I was optimistic.

 
  Dihoru

Elite Member

Joined: 1/11/06
Posts: 2299

10/07/12 3:54:50 PM#106

Monetization of a game is hard but it is the dev's choice and people can and will vote with their wallets.

 

That being said the title is a bit misleading... it should be How Free to Play is killing the people who pay for our biased reviews! Go QQ in the corner and learn to love change or buy yourself a SNES or comperable PC rig and live in your "golden age" forever.

  Po_gg

Elite Member

Joined: 5/12/10
Posts: 1746

10/07/12 4:29:53 PM#107
Originally posted by Yanari
Originally posted by SnarlingWolf

Now companies are moving beyond that to actual stat raising and essentially necessary items to get everyone to pay something. Battlefield Heroes started off selling cosmetic items and wasn't doing so hot. The moment they switch to selling actual better guns and items their sales skyrocketted.

 

What is worse is so many players are insistant that this is the way it should be. They are literally telling companies to find ways to rip them off and make them pay for every little thing.

 

Thanks Yanari for finding this, I missed it before. When I wrote previously "new kids won't mind microtransaction, or f2p, or (sadly) the pay-to-win concept", my statement also was based on Battlefield Heroes. We sometimes joking on that BFH is EA's testing ground of pay to win brainwashing... :)

That game started as a regular f2p shooting game, with some cosmetics and (slighty better than free) weapons in store. Slightly, like "you really spent money on a mere bonus crit chance? lol, it won't help you winning at all". In 3 years, EA turned it into a massive p2w title (like the pic in Tingle's pvp column, where the kid is the free player: http://images.mmorpg.com/features/6658/images/PvP1.jpg). They reached it by only adding items to the store, slowly raising the bar a bit every time.

Why is it a problem to us, if it's only a lame pew-pew game? Well, because of the playerbase, and what their attitude tells to the industry... They love p2w. If EAsy don't release a new gun for a while (meaning an even playfield, since most of them got the best guns already), they start to whining about new stuff. If not guns, at least new cosmetics. They just need it. Which leading to an even sweeter aspect to companies: they buy everything. Seriously, everything... Sometimes it seems like EAsy testing the limits, how far can they push it :) cough*Bronto head*cough

The thing is, soon they'll be the target audience, not us. And that's a very grim future for our current game style... Not a surprise, but if you check the forums, the f2p-complainers are (mostly) all the time the veteran players, with many mmo's and played years behind.

 

And I agree with Yanari, LotRO changed during this 2 years of f2p. The change was slow, I wouldn't even say it's p2w now, but I can understand why they erased from everywhere the "convenience, not advantage" post of Patience (luckily I had a screenshot :) )

  Cymdai

Advanced Member

Joined: 6/05/05
Posts: 1078

It's my job to be objective, it's my right to have an opinion.

10/07/12 7:27:23 PM#108

Hello all!

 

I just had some time to read through all the comments, and I'd like to touch base on a few general points.

1) This is part one of a multi-part article. I'm attempting to start off with some background information, history, and personal experiences with F2P, DLC, "pay2win", etc etc. I noticed a few of you were particularly hostile, and seemingly even offended by this. However, please be patient and recognize that, for many gamers out there, they haven't had the years or the experience of gaming that you may have. Background and history is necessary in order to get to the present!

2) This article will continue to grow and evolve. Check back frequently.

3) The title was designed to be catchy... it seems to be working well :)

4) I'm really pleased with the level of discussion this article has brought about, and will be typing a more in-depth reply to certain posts tomorrow/the next few days (I'm still working on a different piece atm)

5) This is an editorial; it is opinion-based, though I am doing what I can to incorporate facts, history, and background to supplement my opinion. 

With that all said, please keep posting, and I'll be back to post in this article in the next few days :)

 

Derek C.

Waiting for something fresh to arrive on the MMO scene...

  Hurvart

Novice Member

Joined: 11/02/10
Posts: 566

10/07/12 7:47:35 PM#109

Some people dont like F2P. Because being able to pay money to get better or progress faster is unfair. To be able to buy any sort of advantage is unacceptable.

There will always be some players that think like that. They will stop playing if they cant find P2P games or true B2P games. For them F2P really is killing gaming. When games like that are the only option it will be time to find a different hobby.

  TheCrow2k

Hard Core Member

Joined: 10/19/09
Posts: 944

10/07/12 10:40:25 PM#110
I was never a fan of sub to pay or microtransactions, but have spent money on both. I think the end of sub to play or at least compulsory sub to play was inevitable & In the end may be a good thing. That said a lot of f2p games might be well served to charge $5-$10 for the client key so that when a player is banned it actually does cost the banned player something & they can't just re-roll for free.
  Torvaldr

Elite Member

Joined: 6/10/09
Posts: 5156

Opportunist

10/07/12 10:54:48 PM#111

There are crappy games of varying payment models.  I like F2P and B2P games.  I would much rather try a game and if it is good continue to support it.

I wish the author had acutally used logic and reasoning to support his premise if he's going to make a bold claim.  Personally, I think he made a bunch of assumptions and lept to a lot of conclusions without any proof.  But hey, whatever floats your boat.  He did nothing to change my opinion.

  Lithuanian

Hard Core Member

Joined: 12/17/06
Posts: 146

10/08/12 12:43:05 AM#112

Of course, f2p is to blame. It is f2p that has done every single evil in history since Adam and Eve (for sure, Devil was f2p...). If not f2p, there would be no evil, no bad games, no half-done games, no rude players, no scamming, no gold-farming at all.

The author is terribly wrong on two main topics:

1) focusing on Sims and some 2 other games. Looks like there are more online games than 3 on the market and errors of "Sims" are not necesserily errors of all other games. That is, if John is blonde Lithuanian and he instantly forgets where his glasses are - does it mean all blonde Lithuanian males instantly forget where their glasses are?

2) author has not played any other MMORPG except ones he mentioned. I would like to invite him to play some titles. First example - Istaria. No cash shop, no pay-to-win. You may win with Human race and without plot and every single item is obtainable in-game: most crafted, some - looted from monsters. I also would like to invite the author to the Lord of the rings online: you may purchase xp boosts, mounts...explansion packs by grinding for Turbine points. You may enjoy their shop without spending a cent - Turbine points only. Of course, you are more than encouraged and reminded about being "VIP", but you can bypass it.

The author also does not see (i.e. does not want to see) bad games that were either P2P or B2P.  It's just F2P that is bad.

Finally, the author makes another logical mistake: he fails to see difference between f2p and p2w. Explaining: if player can enjoy full game content without paying in real cash, it is free-to-play; if player cannot enjoy full game content without paying real cash - it's pay-to-win.  Example: in game A, player can go anywhere, do any quest for free (however, player can be of limited race or have no personal house) - game A. is f2p. In game B player can't go anywhere, do some quests (player may also be limited in housing), but he may "unlock" anything with in-game currency/points - game B still is free-to-play. in game C, player can't go anywhere, do some quests, may also be limited in housing, but he may "unlock" anything with real currency - game C is pay-to-win.

http://www.mmoblogg.wordpress.com

  evolver1972

Novice Member

Joined: 3/18/11
Posts: 1126

What is "real"? How do you define "real"?

10/08/12 12:50:54 AM#113
Originally posted by GrumpyMel2
Originally posted by evolver1972
Originally posted by GrumpyMel2
Originally posted by evolver1972
Originally posted by GrumpyMel2
Originally posted by evolver1972
Originally posted by Yakamomoto

"F2P" is mostly a scam. (same goes for "B2P" with cash shop)

If you read "FREE" on the internet, something smells fishy.

I prefer the good old honest subscription model.

 

Honest subscription model.  That's funny.  Considering the costs of running a game are basically miniscule your honest sub model goes to one of two things:  Marketing and Profit.

 

And with the right CS, B2P is not a scam.  To me, that is the most honest and fair way to run a game.  You buy the game (just like every other game), and you don't have to spend another dime to play if you don't want to.  How is that a scam?

 

I also think that F2P, if done correctly, can also not be a scam, although I do admit that model leaves much more opportunity for scamming.

 

I personally think LotRO's F2P version was just fine.  I didn't feel cheated, or pressured to spend any money at all.

*snip*

Then explain to me how some MMOs can run a quality game without charging a monthly fee.  Surely their costs for maintaining the game are roughly the same as those who charge the fee.

 

Sorry, but I don't buy the argument that it costs anywhere near $15/month per user to run a game after it's been released.  Not when there are so many games out there that don't get that much in income but still manage to keep the game running.

I didn't say they cost $15 per month/per user to run. I said the Operating costs were not, as you put it, "miniscule"

They may not be "miniscule" in terms of real dollars.  I could not afford to pay those costs every month.  However, in relation to the other costs of the game, they are pretty negligible.  If they weren't, no company in their right mind would ever consider releasing an MMO without a sub to cover those costs.  Considering that many do proves the idea that compared to the rest of their budget, the operating costs are basically miniscule.

 

I guess I wasn't clear enough, but that is what I've been saying all along.

You want me to pay to play a game I already paid for???

Be afraid.....The dragons are HERE!

  evolver1972

Novice Member

Joined: 3/18/11
Posts: 1126

What is "real"? How do you define "real"?

10/08/12 12:55:55 AM#114
Originally posted by Xstatic912
Regarding mmo in general, why the hell does every new sub mmo being release think they are worth $15 a month.. Why not other lower price point..

Because that's what the deluded will pay for them.

 

No game is worth a sub fee.  The only reason sub fees are still around is because some people are still willing to pay them, even though it has been repeatedly shown they are not necessary.

You want me to pay to play a game I already paid for???

Be afraid.....The dragons are HERE!

  Hurvart

Novice Member

Joined: 11/02/10
Posts: 566

10/08/12 5:05:05 AM#115
Originally posted by evolver1972
Originally posted by Xstatic912
Regarding mmo in general, why the hell does every new sub mmo being release think they are worth $15 a month.. Why not other lower price point..

Because that's what the deluded will pay for them.

 

No game is worth a sub fee.  The only reason sub fees are still around is because some people are still willing to pay them, even though it has been repeatedly shown they are not necessary.

In some F2P games with a CS you can pay $200 a month  if you feel that you must use every boost and "time saving" item all the time when playing.

How can people be gullible enough to play a fraud and P2W-fest like that? Because it is much more expensive than any P2P game could ever be. If you want to experience the whole game, fastest progress, to be as powerful as possible all the time it is very very expensive to play.

Games like that should not be legal, IMO. In parts of the world politicians would probably ban that business model if they really learned how it works. Because it is not moral. It is greed. It will kill real gaming if not stopped.

  kaiser3282

Tipster

Joined: 5/21/08
Posts: 2484

10/08/12 6:50:25 AM#116
Originally posted by Hurvart
Originally posted by evolver1972
Originally posted by Xstatic912
Regarding mmo in general, why the hell does every new sub mmo being release think they are worth $15 a month.. Why not other lower price point..

Because that's what the deluded will pay for them.

 

No game is worth a sub fee.  The only reason sub fees are still around is because some people are still willing to pay them, even though it has been repeatedly shown they are not necessary.

In some F2P games with a CS you can pay $200 a month  if you feel that you must use every boost and "time saving" item all the time when playing.

How can people be gullible enough to play a fraud and P2W-fest like that? Because it is much more expensive than any P2P game could ever be. If you want to experience the whole game, fastest progress, to be as powerful as possible all the time it is very very expensive to play.

Games like that should not be legal, IMO. In parts of the world politicians would probably ban that business model if they really learned how it works. Because it is not moral. It is greed. It will kill real gaming if not stopped.

The thing is nobody is forcing you to pay that per month. Everyone doing it is doing it of their own free will, and simply using it as a shortcut. You could still achieve the same goals in most games, it just takes a lot longer. Doesnt change the fact you can do it for free though.

Most people spending that money are doing it because they have the money to blow and because the option is there. To them, spending $200 is less hassle than spending 100+ hours a month grinding away through boring PvE when all they want is to get to the "good" part, which is usually being max level and fully geared out for PvP. But thats not a flaw of F2Ps, thats a flaw of mearly ALL games. The whole endgame mindset.

Just look at it this way. If you made more than enough money to provide for yourself & family and hadextra money to blow on entertainment, would you spend most of your days playing through the most boring parts of a game doing repetetive quests or grind mobs in 1 spot for hours on end, or would you pay to be able to skip most of that repetetive crap and get to doing what you really want faster?

Truth is most people spending large amounts of money in F2P games are PvPers who are mainly interested in being the strongest in PvP, not killing the same mob 1000 times to gain a couple levels. They can avoid a huge chunk of grinding & farming and get good gear easier by spending what some of us make in just a few hours.

 

  Cymdai

Advanced Member

Joined: 6/05/05
Posts: 1078

It's my job to be objective, it's my right to have an opinion.

10/08/12 10:36:01 AM#117
Originally posted by Lithuanian

Of course, f2p is to blame. It is f2p that has done every single evil in history since Adam and Eve (for sure, Devil was f2p...). If not f2p, there would be no evil, no bad games, no half-done games, no rude players, no scamming, no gold-farming at all.

The author is terribly wrong on two main topics:

1) focusing on Sims and some 2 other games. Looks like there are more online games than 3 on the market and errors of "Sims" are not necesserily errors of all other games. That is, if John is blonde Lithuanian and he instantly forgets where his glasses are - does it mean all blonde Lithuanian males instantly forget where their glasses are?

2) author has not played any other MMORPG except ones he mentioned. I would like to invite him to play some titles. First example - Istaria. No cash shop, no pay-to-win. You may win with Human race and without plot and every single item is obtainable in-game: most crafted, some - looted from monsters. I also would like to invite the author to the Lord of the rings online: you may purchase xp boosts, mounts...explansion packs by grinding for Turbine points. You may enjoy their shop without spending a cent - Turbine points only. Of course, you are more than encouraged and reminded about being "VIP", but you can bypass it.

The author also does not see (i.e. does not want to see) bad games that were either P2P or B2P.  It's just F2P that is bad.

Finally, the author makes another logical mistake: he fails to see difference between f2p and p2w. Explaining: if player can enjoy full game content without paying in real cash, it is free-to-play; if player cannot enjoy full game content without paying real cash - it's pay-to-win.  Example: in game A, player can go anywhere, do any quest for free (however, player can be of limited race or have no personal house) - game A. is f2p. In game B player can't go anywhere, do some quests (player may also be limited in housing), but he may "unlock" anything with in-game currency/points - game B still is free-to-play. in game C, player can't go anywhere, do some quests, may also be limited in housing, but he may "unlock" anything with real currency - game C is pay-to-win.

These are not only inaccurate, but unfounded assumptions to make. You're blatantly discounting the fact that is is part 1 of this series. To say I haven't played other games could be verified with the basic browsing of this site.

I'd like to really request that if you're going to hate on the piece, by all means, pick it apart for what it IS, not what it ISN'T.

Waiting for something fresh to arrive on the MMO scene...

  Cymdai

Advanced Member

Joined: 6/05/05
Posts: 1078

It's my job to be objective, it's my right to have an opinion.

10/08/12 10:55:43 AM#118
Originally posted by itsneo
Originally posted by rumpleman

Ugg... why does everything have to be so absolute?

 

"Free to play is killing gaming", "this game is dead", or "that game failed".

When in all actuality, lots of people are gaming. Some would argue that there are more gamers than ever before. And those games that people often quote as "dead" or have "failed" are still making money or they wouldn't be online.

 

Just because "you" don't like a particular game or aspect of a game, does not mean the sky is falling. If you want things to change, make a stand and stop spending money on the games you dislike.

 

/endrant

edited typo's

I agree with this statement, F2P is not the enemy.. we are.  The problem is not the buisness model, its the player base.  WE force the companies into being more creative with their buisness models because WE are more choosy, we have more games than ever to dedicate our gaming time to.  WE have other finacial responsiblities, WE are more and more becoming more demanding, have more expectations, some unrealistic.    WE, the gaming community sub-culture as a whole are the issue here.  WE are killing games.   WE are all as unique as the next fellow in game genre's, gaming playstyle, preferences, likes and dislikes and, frankly, now that there are MILLIONS of gamers, and for this conversation I am going to exclude console gamers as, well, this is MMORPG.COM.. so we will stick to MMO's, WE have come to expect ALL our demands be met or we simply move on to the next game.  

I might add, I am rather disappointed in this article, it's poorly written.  The examples used to justify your opinion are weak and in all honesty, self-saticfying.   I mean.. The Sims?  Who even played that?  Kidding, I know allot of people did, it was a distraction from other MMO's when one was needed, like SL, or IMVU, or some other SOCIAL, and or REAL LIFE/VIRTUAL LIFE line blurring games are.  

Look, Free to PLay is not the enemy, subscription based business models are no longer the BEST models to use, Cash Shops, Pay for Power, or Pay to Win, how ever you wish to coin it, is here to stay.   This article would be better served if you were not forcing your opinion on us as fact.  You failed.    And I wont even begin to touch on my personal choice of business model because I'd like to think it varies.    BUT..   if given the choice I would have to say it is totally dependant on the title.    Allow me to elaborate;

Lets take a title like the recently released Guild Wars 2, and its predecessor Guild Wars 1.  Here is a business model that clearly has worked, pay for the game, no sub fees, pay for expansions, and a cash shop you CAN  use if you so desire for consumables, social items etc...    While I PERSONALLY think this is a great model, and perhaps even IDEAL, I would like to say that a PERFECT model in my view would include the above with an OPTIONAL subscription.  Subscribing has its bennifits, so I would hope there'd be some real advantage to subbing to a game with this model, say, sub based content, or items, exp buffs, etc.. 

Now, lets look at the subscription only model, keeping it recent,  games like Rift, WoW (yes I know wow is free for 20 levels, so is Rift), TSW, etc..  All pay for client, pay for subscription, and pay in cash shops.  All fine and dandy untill you burn through all the content and get bored, a new title is released, cancel sub, play new title, get bored, and re-sub to your favorite game.    Lets be frank.. While wow may be the king of subcriber accounts, it was NOT king of the mmo's, if one uses percentages, wow may have had the largest number of subscribed accounts, but it also has the largest percentage of canceled subbed accounts as well.  Simply because of its numbers.    But my point in bringing this up is only to show that subbed based business models are not always the best way to keep your players long term.  

Next, lets look at the Free to Play model, and the massive number of titles in the business model, and lol, all the titles that have converted to it  from a sub based model, those that are about to (swtor, AoC, and Aion are just 3 examples) .  I use these three because I subbed to all of them at one point.  There are also a slew of titles upcomming that will be FREE to PLAY..   Why?  An attempt to KILL the gaming industry?  LOL come on..   the only thing that can kill the industry would be we all stop playing games, and that's not likely to ever happen, even as we grow older, we, er I at over 40, are still gaming.  And younger generations are joining in on the fun.  Free to Play just opens the doors to more and more gamers, who, perhaps do not have the cash for subscriptions but do, perhaps from time to time have a few extra bucks they can sink into a cash shop or micro-transaction shop as they are better known as in the industry, for some gear or consumables, or bag expansions, what have you.

I do not claim to be a profesional writer, nor is my spelling all that accurate, and lacking a spell checker in this forum post, pretty sure you will find many.  Nor to I claim to be an expert in the gaming industry, I do however claim to be a gamer, and as a true gamer, perhaps old-school gamer, business model means absolutley NOTHING to me..  What matters, and what should matter is whether or not I enjoy the game, that is what will keep me playing.  If I am no longer challenged, I move on.   Hell I paid over a 100 bucks for all of WoW's expansion, bought 6 months of game time, and I played 2 weeks.  Did I give it a fair chance? Perhaps not, but no game that lets me go from level 1 to 85 in three solid days is worth my time.  And I am not singling out WoW here, so fan boys and haters need not troll, but its true of ANY title..   Sorry TSW, loved the game, just blew through it too fast, same is true with swtor, and many other titles.  

In closing, articles like this, frustrate me, passing one's opinion off as fact is, well, shameful. The FACT is, we are all very different, and the opinions on this subject are as varied as we are unique.  I do not believe that any one opinion, be it mine, or anyone ones will be the answer to the gaming industry woes.  The Fact is, some people do not like to pay subscriptions, some perfer it thinking they get ALL the game has to offer for a montly fee, some like a mix, some like Box Priced games with no subs and a cash shop to support the developers and still, some prefer a mix of all three.   There is no industry killing business model.  There is however game killing players who move on for lack of .. well content, a game that keeps their attention, and I have been at this a loong time, very looooong time.   I can say with some certainty, no matter the business model, if you love a game, you stay and play, if you get bored and move on to other games , you WILL come back to the one game you loved most, provided it is still online.    Lets put the game killing chat behind us and own up to our own faults first.  WE are the game killers.  

 

thanks all.  cheers.

In regards to the GW2 business model vs the Rift business model, I would argue strongly against your claims that it is ideal.

When you are subscribing to a game, you are paying not only for the game, access to it, etc, you are also paying for customer service. Perhaps you haven't explored the G2 forums across the web as much, but you should. There are rampant claims of botting and hacking taking place, all because there is a minimalist approach to stopping it. Similar issues could be noted in games like Diablo 3, where hacking and botting had run rampant for months. While it's true that the GW2 and D3 teams are doing what they can to combat these problems, the lack of an in-game game moderator allows these to carry on until their CSR tickets are resolved. In the case of D3, botting is so profitable that people and botting groups went on record via youtube, claiming they owned 50-100 botting accounts which were effectively paying for themselves.

This is not to say such exploits do not occur in P2P games; anyone who ever suffered through the travesty of Age of Conan can certainly tell you about exploits. Indeed, it is the failure of the P2P games that, in my opinion, has given rise largely to the F2P business model; you can't charge for a service you aren't providing.

By comparison though, the F2P model has produced large-scale fronts of cheating, botting, hacking, etc. If you need any proof, simply search the forums for many of the top F2P games. There are exceptions to the rule, of course. You rarely hear about cheating in League of LegendsDotA2, or the MOBA genre (as it's monitored more tightly, IMO, and games in served in session rather than continuous)

 

As for games switching from P2P to F2P, they aren't trying to kill the gaming industry. It's a matter of basic economics. While the games aren't as popular as they were, they still have a decent sized playerbase. Rather than closing up shop and folding, those games can still generate revenue. But let's not be fooled; those games aren't bringing anything new to the table anymore either. They're on life-support, fighting to stay competitive and popular. Funding those games with the F2P model isn't going to evolve the industry, it stagnates it by letting titles that couldn't match up staying on the marketplace.

Perhaps my biggest gripe with F2P is the community aspect. When you're paying for something, you're going to be more involved with it. Look at how many F2P MMORPG are out there. Did you make any lasting friendships in those games? Do you feel like you're involved with your server? No. And you won't. Because people can come and go freely with little-to-no regard for the other players in the game. P2P games like Final Fantasy 11 and Eve Online, in my opinion, were the finest community-driven MMORPGs ever made. You were paying to play the game, but more importantly, to be a part of the community it brought. And that's an element I have yet to see *ANY*  F2P game even come close to recreating thus far.

Waiting for something fresh to arrive on the MMO scene...

  Cymdai

Advanced Member

Joined: 6/05/05
Posts: 1078

It's my job to be objective, it's my right to have an opinion.

10/08/12 11:02:24 AM#119
Originally posted by Po_gg

F2P won't 'kill gaming', only changing it. 'Only', in huge brackets.

And it's not even some a sudden change, it's quite logical: the playerbase is changing, so the industry follows it. Sure, this change won't be good for us, older ones, but they don't really care... As time goes, we're going slowly out of the market, and the new kids won't mind microtransaction, or f2p, or (sadly) the pay-to-win concept. Actually they're almost 'trained' for it, that they can buy anything right away, and for only a small price (music, xbox marketplace, psn store, etc)

 

But not that's what I wanted to comment, sorry Derek but I laughed at the piracy part so much :) No wonder the first comment by montin was a correction to it right away. What you mentioned with DRM's was the exact opposite, maybe that was the only era where the publishers were able somewhat to fought back.

Piracy was there at Speccy, it was _huge_ at the Commodore era (heck, I could count on one hand the original C64 programs I saw during the 80's), then the BBS's in the early 90's, then with the www. introduction piracy literally exploded... A buddy of mine was a retailer then, with ties to the publishers, the selling numbers were sad... (at least in Eu). Same with the consoles :I

So "Digital piracy had migrated from just music to movies and then to video games." is a  really funny statement...

Well, I can only go off of what I've experienced and witnessed first-hand in relation to this. 

Unfortunately, this is a specific instance of age bearing down on my insight. To my credit, I did specifically say I wasn't sure when it started, but I PERSONALLY started to take notice of it with the peer-to-peer sharing programs, like Kazaa and Napster and such.

Waiting for something fresh to arrive on the MMO scene...

  evolver1972

Novice Member

Joined: 3/18/11
Posts: 1126

What is "real"? How do you define "real"?

10/08/12 11:03:30 AM#120
Originally posted by Hurvart
Originally posted by evolver1972
Originally posted by Xstatic912
Regarding mmo in general, why the hell does every new sub mmo being release think they are worth $15 a month.. Why not other lower price point..

Because that's what the deluded will pay for them.

 

No game is worth a sub fee.  The only reason sub fees are still around is because some people are still willing to pay them, even though it has been repeatedly shown they are not necessary.

In some F2P games with a CS you can pay $200 a month  if you feel that you must use every boost and "time saving" item all the time when playing.

How can people be gullible enough to play a fraud and P2W-fest like that? Because it is much more expensive than any P2P game could ever be. If you want to experience the whole game, fastest progress, to be as powerful as possible all the time it is very very expensive to play.

Games like that should not be legal, IMO. In parts of the world politicians would probably ban that business model if they really learned how it works. Because it is not moral. It is greed. It will kill real gaming if not stopped.

I agree that games set up that way are crap.  So I wouldn't ever play them.  Just like I'd never play a game with a sub.

 

The difference, though, is with the F2P game, you are not forced to spend the money to play.  You can still play without it.  You don't have that choice in a sub game.  You must pay to play, period.

 

As for saying the Pay2Win thing is immoral, I don't agree with that assessment.  You are not forced to spend the money and to me, it's no more greedy than charging a sub when the sub is not necessary to cover costs.  F2P, or better yet, B2P games prove that a sub is not necessary for a well made game.

You want me to pay to play a game I already paid for???

Be afraid.....The dragons are HERE!

7 Pages « 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 » Search