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General Discussion  » I apoligize WoW fans.

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37 posts found
  Zecktorin

Novice Member

Joined: 11/23/11
Posts: 235

 
OP  10/07/12 5:17:17 AM#1

My last post with the video may have caused some unwanted arguing about hardcore vs casuals. This is not what I intended to happen.

I'll start off first by saying that casuals do deserve to see the content too, but don't you think its fair to more hardcore players to expereince the challenge they want as well? Casuals complain its not fair because they don't to see as much, but how is it fair that hardcore players don't have any challenge left?

it's as simple as that.... it works both ways. I did not have a problem with lich king at all it made the game easier but still kept a pretty decent diffculty. I was willing to sacrifice some challenege so that casuals could see more content and it was nice for you guys to be able to raid with me. However WoW today is even easier and even casuals are running out of things to do. Again its kool that you wana see content, and a lot of us more hardcore players were willing to sacrifice a little, but in turn you casuals need to sacrifice a little and allow the game to be a little more difficult.  I personally miss the days of TBC, but I also miss Lich King the diffuclty was just right for hardcore and casual players to be able to meet in the middle, but people still just wanted easier still.

All this argument "I don't have time" or "it feels like a job"..... This is a MMO people. It's ment to take time and effort to advance in. Thats the purpose of it.

  azrael466

Novice Member

Joined: 4/26/08
Posts: 369

10/07/12 12:17:44 PM#2
Originally posted by Zecktorin

My last post with the video may have caused some unwanted arguing about hardcore vs casuals. This is not what I intended to happen.

I'll start off first by saying that casuals do deserve to see the content too, but don't you think its fair to more hardcore players to expereince the challenge they want as well? Casuals complain its not fair because they don't to see as much, but how is it fair that hardcore players don't have any challenge left?

it's as simple as that.... it works both ways. I did not have a problem with lich king at all it made the game easier but still kept a pretty decent diffculty. I was willing to sacrifice some challenege so that casuals could see more content and it was nice for you guys to be able to raid with me. However WoW today is even easier and even casuals are running out of things to do. Again its kool that you wana see content, and a lot of us more hardcore players were willing to sacrifice a little, but in turn you casuals need to sacrifice a little and allow the game to be a little more difficult.  I personally miss the days of TBC, but I also miss Lich King the diffuclty was just right for hardcore and casual players to be able to meet in the middle, but people still just wanted easier still.

All this argument "I don't have time" or "it feels like a job"..... This is a MMO people. It's ment to take time and effort to advance in. Thats the purpose of it.

How many 'hardcores' whining about not having a challange actually do, say, hardmodes? or the new challange modes(which scales gear, so you can't outgear it, ever)?

MOST hardcores...Again, MOST, not all, so don't come here bitching about "well, I dont do that blah blah blah" because that just means you're outside the most I'm talking about...DON'T want a challange, they want to be special little fucking snowflakes and keep other people out of 'their' raids.

Playing
Nothing
waiting for
The secret world
Played
WoW, DCU online, star wars: the old republic, city of heroes, city of villains, everquest, plenty more I'm probably forgetting or aren't worth noting.

  Badaboom

Hard Core Member

Joined: 10/04/10
Posts: 2400

10/07/12 12:21:28 PM#3
I liked your last video and everything you said was worth saying.  For a long time I have believed that the tougher things are, it drives people together. This as true in life as it is a game. Great communities are built by challenging times. 
  grapevine

Apprentice Member

Joined: 12/17/04
Posts: 1943

10/07/12 12:24:38 PM#4
Pointless thread, as Cata is no longer the current game.  MoP end game is closer to TBC.  Raids are gated on progression again, and the rep grind is back.
  marikur

Novice Member

Joined: 9/28/12
Posts: 2

10/07/12 12:31:57 PM#5

Remember Blizzard is running a business would you run your business for the 1% or the 99%? Thats pretty much the casual vs hardcore arguement in a nutshell. EQ1 lost a lot of its population when WOW came out because the casuals felt left behind and cut off from the content.

But yes I agreee things are too easy... vanilla was restrictive almost as restrictive as EQ1 for the casuals and TBC... Lich King was good for those of us who have families, jobs that require more attention than a game... I left at Cata.... what can I say I just found it same old same old.... and can't comment on MoP.

I agree Lich King was a nice balance... so even casuals could get to Arthas in 10 man normal mode with some effort.

  Badaboom

Hard Core Member

Joined: 10/04/10
Posts: 2400

10/07/12 12:39:42 PM#6
Originally posted by marikur

Remember Blizzard is running a business would you run your business for the 1% or the 99%? Thats pretty much the casual vs hardcore arguement in a nutshell. EQ1 lost a lot of its population when WOW came out because the casuals felt left behind and cut off from the content.

But yes I agreee things are too easy... vanilla was restrictive almost as restrictive as EQ1 for the casuals and TBC... Lich King was good for those of us who have families, jobs that require more attention than a game... I left at Cata.... what can I say I just found it same old same old.... and can't comment on MoP.

I agree Lich King was a nice balance... so even casuals could get to Arthas in 10 man normal mode with some effort.

The thing about that is it is a catch 22. Yes they are a business trying to give their customers what they want, but I do think the customers know the consequences of what they ask. They then get bored and leave. So by giving players what they want the business is in fact driving away customers in the long term. 

  Rednecksith

Apprentice Member

Joined: 6/12/09
Posts: 1272

Bite my fiery metal ass!

10/07/12 12:40:55 PM#7

See, I think Blizzard really screwed up when they designed the current progression model. Currently, it goes: Regular Dungeons -> Heroic Dungeons -> Regular Raids -> Hardmode Raids.

How progression should be is: Regular Dungeons -> Regular Raids -> Heroic Dungeons -> Hardmode Raids.

This way more casual people can see all the really cool story-related raid content & get some halfway decent / cool looking gear (obviously different from what the hardmode offers), whereas the hardcore raiders can still push through all the 'easy stuff' very quickly to get to the challenging content they so desire. Everybody wins!

Unfortunately Blizzard doesn't usually listen to sensible ideas, so...

  Xiaoki

Hard Core Member

Joined: 3/07/04
Posts: 2500

10/07/12 1:51:38 PM#8


Originally posted by Badaboom
The thing about that is it is a catch 22. Yes they are a business trying to give their customers what they want, but I do think the customers know the consequences of what they ask. They then get bored and leave. So by giving players what they want the business is in fact driving away customers in the long term. 

The business model Blizzard has chosen may drive away old players in the long term but it attracts new players in the short term.


Its impossible to maintain a retention of millions and millions of players by constantly ignoring a vast of majority of them.


If an MMO cant attract new players then it will slowly atrophy.

  Ausare

Novice Member

Joined: 3/23/11
Posts: 870

10/07/12 1:57:27 PM#9
Question do most player play for personal achievement or for social recognition of achievement?
  BizkitNL

Old School

Joined: 12/29/02
Posts: 2318

"Free to play, pay to win""

10/07/12 2:02:58 PM#10
Originally posted by Zecktorin

All this argument "I don't have time" or "it feels like a job"..... This is a MMO people. It's ment to take time and effort to advance in. Thats the purpose of it.

That's putting it way too simple. Why can't we be challenged in say....1 to 2 hours of gameplay? I mean, that what I see a lot of casual people complain about. Why does it always have to be 3+ hours? That doesn't cater to hardcores, that caters to no-lifers.

Feel like trying Planetside 2? Get a headstart with the starter kit!

  Badaboom

Hard Core Member

Joined: 10/04/10
Posts: 2400

10/07/12 2:03:37 PM#11
Originally posted by Xiaoki

 


Originally posted by Badaboom
The thing about that is it is a catch 22. Yes they are a business trying to give their customers what they want, but I do think the customers know the consequences of what they ask. They then get bored and leave. So by giving players what they want the business is in fact driving away customers in the long term. 


The business model Blizzard has chosen may drive away old players in the long term but it attracts new players in the short term.

 


Its impossible to maintain a retention of millions and millions of players by constantly ignoring a vast of majority of them.


If an MMO cant attract new players then it will slowly atrophy.

Yes that is correct, they get more short term players but lose long term playability.  However, it is more expensive to get new players than to retain old ones.  With their payment model, player retention is king. 

  Shadoed

Novice Member

Joined: 10/03/03
Posts: 1484

10/07/12 2:09:14 PM#12
Originally posted by Xiaoki

The business model Blizzard has chosen may drive away old players in the long term but it attracts new players in the short term.

 


Its impossible to maintain a retention of millions and millions of players by constantly ignoring a vast of majority of them.


If an MMO cant attract new players then it will slowly atrophy.

The stats on the video point out that less than 1% of the playerbase back in Vanilla defeated a main boss, how is that a 'vast majority' of the players?

The subs contnued on an upward trend through Cata so there is less and less evidence that the simplification of raiding caused any major impact on the playerbase as much as just the game getting old for some did, although it would seem that Blizzard have realised that they need to do something to bring some of the old base back hence the new modes, world bosses (so many group calls going out just like the old days for these) and emphasis on PvP.

It is a difficult thing to strike a balance between the 'hardcore' and casual and a game maker will listen to it's majority player base as seen here and if you are looking for an example of where the hardcore rules then EvE is the classic one.

It must be Thursday, i never could get the hang of Thursdays.

  Sovrath

Elite Member

Joined: 1/06/05
Posts: 17530

10/07/12 2:25:03 PM#13
Originally posted by marikur

Remember Blizzard is running a business would you run your business for the 1% or the 99%? Thats pretty much the casual vs hardcore arguement in a nutshell. EQ1 lost a lot of its population when WOW came out because the casuals felt left behind and cut off from the content.

It depends upon what that business wanted to do.

If it was me? I would figure out how to make something that was viable for the 1%.

Otherwise what you are proposing is that the more whitewashed and accessible something is the better. If we always catered to the majority then we wouldn't have some amazing things in this world.

This is not to say that the majority is inferior because they don't like esoteric or very "pointed/particular" content (whether that be movies, games, music, tv "whatever") but there is a lot out there that is very unique that would never be made if it was up to catering to a majority.

There are businesses that cater to specific tastes. Look at EVE. They recognize the need to make their game more accessible but there is a difference between making something more accessible and completely changing what it is.

 

  User Deleted
10/07/12 2:29:03 PM#14
Originally posted by Zecktorin

My last post with the video may have caused some unwanted arguing about hardcore vs casuals. This is not what I intended to happen.

I'll start off first by saying that casuals do deserve to see the content too, but don't you think its fair to more hardcore players to expereince the challenge they want as well? Casuals complain its not fair because they don't to see as much, but how is it fair that hardcore players don't have any challenge left?

it's as simple as that.... it works both ways. I did not have a problem with lich king at all it made the game easier but still kept a pretty decent diffculty. I was willing to sacrifice some challenege so that casuals could see more content and it was nice for you guys to be able to raid with me. However WoW today is even easier and even casuals are running out of things to do. Again its kool that you wana see content, and a lot of us more hardcore players were willing to sacrifice a little, but in turn you casuals need to sacrifice a little and allow the game to be a little more difficult.  I personally miss the days of TBC, but I also miss Lich King the diffuclty was just right for hardcore and casual players to be able to meet in the middle, but people still just wanted easier still.

All this argument "I don't have time" or "it feels like a job"..... This is a MMO people. It's ment to take time and effort to advance in. Thats the purpose of it.

Hardcores dont deserve anything a casual deserves.

  FrodoFragins

Advanced Member

Joined: 4/29/10
Posts: 2784

10/07/12 2:32:48 PM#15
I'm not sure why you are apologizing.  Your view is valid but in the extreme minority.
  Ghern

Novice Member

Joined: 8/25/12
Posts: 135

10/07/12 2:35:54 PM#16
Originally posted by marikur

Remember Blizzard is running a business would you run your business for the 1% or the 99%? Thats pretty much the casual vs hardcore arguement in a nutshell. EQ1 lost a lot of its population when WOW came out because the casuals felt left behind and cut off from the content.

But yes I agreee things are too easy... vanilla was restrictive almost as restrictive as EQ1 for the casuals and TBC... Lich King was good for those of us who have families, jobs that require more attention than a game... I left at Cata.... what can I say I just found it same old same old.... and can't comment on MoP.

I agree Lich King was a nice balance... so even casuals could get to Arthas in 10 man normal mode with some effort.

I do not understand this sentiment.

WoW had its greatest growth during vanilla and TBC. This was a time when WoW was at it's most difficult.

I know it hit its peak subscriber base during Wrath but on a percentage basis it did not add subs like TBC did.

Ever since the middle of Wrath it has been slowly bleeding subs.

Three months from now, after expansion hype I am willing to bet we see numbers slide again.

I'm sorry. I just don't buy the whole 99% vs 1% argument.

Just my opinion.

 

  DavisFlight

Apprentice Member

Joined: 9/25/12
Posts: 2594

10/07/12 2:41:36 PM#17
Who are these hardcore WoW fans people keep talking about? WoW is not a hardcore game, so why get upset about WoW appealing to the casuals, who have always been the primary audience of the game? Anyone seeking challenge wouldn't play WoW.
  Zadawn

Novice Member

Joined: 11/04/10
Posts: 676

10/07/12 2:43:06 PM#18

To all the poeple complaining that hey have a life and a family to take care of etc just don't play mmorpgs?As the op said mmorpgs are ment to take time.

For those of you who want everything on a plate in 1 hour of gaming take on a miniclip game.

  Ginaz

Hard Core Member

Joined: 4/01/07
Posts: 1726

10/07/12 2:43:25 PM#19
Half hearted apology is half hearted.  And passive aggressive.

Is a man not entitled to the herp of his derp?

Remember, I live in a world where juggalos and yugioh players are real things.

  Jakdstripper

Advanced Member

Joined: 2/14/10
Posts: 2144

10/07/12 2:47:47 PM#20

i completely agree that casuals should be able to experience abour 70% of content. the other 20% should be for large, organized and hard core players and 5 to 10% should be only for the elite players.

there should always be a small part of the game that is incredibly difficult otherwise there is nothing to look forward to (much like GW2) and there is only gear grind. a game that poses no more challenges becomes a boring game.

 

 

 

 

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