Originally posted by Ginaz

Originally posted by Karteli

Originally posted by DavisFlight

Originally posted by Karteli

Originally posted by syntax42

I listened to the first two minutes.  Your argument defeats itself.  You said you want new players to experience the journey (1:52), but at the same time less than 1% of players (1:34) do get to experience it.  How does that even make sense?  Wake up.  You are the 1% who got to experience the content when it was end-game and you want Blizzard to cater to you instead of the average person.  Deal with it or play a different game.

 

I stopped playing WoW in vanilla when I realized I would not get to experience end-game content.  I simply didn't have time for the hours of raiding per day that it required to experience all that the game had to offer in the time before the next expansion.  I felt left-out and I didn't enjoy being "stuck" at a certain point in the game while my friends passed me by.  It sounds like Blizzard has finally changed their catering from the elitist crowd to the casual player and that makes me seriously consider breaking my oath to never play WoW again.

 

There is a big difference between making a game accessible and handing it to people on a platter.  Elitists seem to blur that distinction by claiming any accessibility is handing the game to players.  Elitists need to get over themselves and enjoy the game for what it is.  From what I can tell, Blizzard is finally making the game accessible to everyone instead of just the 1%.

Good video, thanks for posting.

Yes early WoW had a challenge that can not be matched with current WoW.  Nowadays every WoW player has Epics, like they were trash items, and they don't appreciate what obtaining Epics actually meants in early WoW.

 

WoW involved an intense community experience with 40-man raids.  Yes people who were not capable of being in a guild are jaded, but those that were in a guild found an amazing game.  If you were not capable of being in a guild, then try more .. expand your social skills, expand your understanding that other people are different from yourself.  Or accept that you could possibly get better.

The majority of people who hate early WoW were either anti-social, or failed to be guild worthy.  FACE IT.  Now you are older, look back.

TBC didn't just get 11+ subscribers on a whim, it was a grand expansion.  Now when Blizzard killed raids down to 10-man and licked tongues with Activision, along with sub-standard quality, this is when WoW started to fall.

It's no wonder why so many people want to play a Vanilla WoW emulator.  The game was good then.

The guild based 40 man raids gave rise to a very elitist exclusionary type of end game. I personally think it's awful game design,e specially when DAoC managed to do massive raids with 100+ people and it awas just about entirely skill based, not gear based, so anyone could come along if they wanted. And those raids were a LOT harder than WoW raids.

Having elitist is necessary, and it gives room for other players to strive toward them.  I loved the 40 man raids.  It was pure entertainment.

Having less than 5% of your players seeing the end game content is generally not something developers want.  I know some people measure their self worth at being better than others at internet wizards and warriors, but those people can go and f*** themselves.

huh why the hate there? In any case you just dont get it. Even if you dont see the engame, you will not run out off content. These days even casual player run out off content, cause this i too easy. So why are you so mad about elitist? For me i think because deep down you know you cant do what they do, so you are so mad then it is better to just bash them..

Originally posted by Ginaz

Originally posted by Karteli

Originally posted by DavisFlight

Originally posted by Karteli

Originally posted by syntax42

I listened to the first two minutes.  Your argument defeats itself.  You said you want new players to experience the journey (1:52), but at the same time less than 1% of players (1:34) do get to experience it.  How does that even make sense?  Wake up.  You are the 1% who got to experience the content when it was end-game and you want Blizzard to cater to you instead of the average person.  Deal with it or play a different game.

 

I stopped playing WoW in vanilla when I realized I would not get to experience end-game content.  I simply didn't have time for the hours of raiding per day that it required to experience all that the game had to offer in the time before the next expansion.  I felt left-out and I didn't enjoy being "stuck" at a certain point in the game while my friends passed me by.  It sounds like Blizzard has finally changed their catering from the elitist crowd to the casual player and that makes me seriously consider breaking my oath to never play WoW again.

 

There is a big difference between making a game accessible and handing it to people on a platter.  Elitists seem to blur that distinction by claiming any accessibility is handing the game to players.  Elitists need to get over themselves and enjoy the game for what it is.  From what I can tell, Blizzard is finally making the game accessible to everyone instead of just the 1%.

Good video, thanks for posting.

Yes early WoW had a challenge that can not be matched with current WoW.  Nowadays every WoW player has Epics, like they were trash items, and they don't appreciate what obtaining Epics actually meants in early WoW.

 

WoW involved an intense community experience with 40-man raids.  Yes people who were not capable of being in a guild are jaded, but those that were in a guild found an amazing game.  If you were not capable of being in a guild, then try more .. expand your social skills, expand your understanding that other people are different from yourself.  Or accept that you could possibly get better.

The majority of people who hate early WoW were either anti-social, or failed to be guild worthy.  FACE IT.  Now you are older, look back.

TBC didn't just get 11+ subscribers on a whim, it was a grand expansion.  Now when Blizzard killed raids down to 10-man and licked tongues with Activision, along with sub-standard quality, this is when WoW started to fall.

It's no wonder why so many people want to play a Vanilla WoW emulator.  The game was good then.

The guild based 40 man raids gave rise to a very elitist exclusionary type of end game. I personally think it's awful game design,e specially when DAoC managed to do massive raids with 100+ people and it awas just about entirely skill based, not gear based, so anyone could come along if they wanted. And those raids were a LOT harder than WoW raids.

Having elitist is necessary, and it gives room for other players to strive toward them.  I loved the 40 man raids.  It was pure entertainment.

Having less than 5% of your players seeing the end game content is generally not something developers want.  I know some people measure their self worth at being better than others at internet wizards and warriors, but those people can go and f*** themselves.

But it gives players something to srive toward.. A goal.

You can say all you want that everyone should have equal access to all content, but there is no longevity in a game like this.  Why bother to keep logging on if you can have end game a day or 2 after creating a character?

Reaching the impossible is what keeps players coming back, something that moden MMO's have completely lost.  Everything is casual friendly now.

This means more money initially, but far less in the long run.  Who will keep paying for a game that they "beat".

Originally posted by Ginaz

Having less than 5% of your players seeing the end game content is generally not something developers want.  I know some people measure their self worth at being better than others at internet wizards and warriors, but those people can go and f*** themselves.

But do you realize how much more motivated people were to progress in the old days then today? Heck, a lot of people played the game in the past, even with 1% experiencing it MORE played back then and the 'increase' was far less as time went on. Its that motivation, that carrot on a stick that got people interested. Even without getting to the end, it gave something to do. Now, people just expect to raid and it cheapens the experience into some thrill thats expected of them as other features are neglected in the game.

I KNOW I'm one of the 'elitists' of sorts, I prize myself on being good at the game and excelling and beating people, and heck, I can be a jerk (haha get it? ) about it when it comes to people who do terrible... and I mean god aweful... or just repeat the same mistakes over and over and over and over again making the group bash their heads in the wall for the sake they can't fix something that is so trivial to fix. You know what I enjoy most? Its not being the best (though its fun) its the competition. Nothing makes dps fun (which is where I'm elitist at, can't care less any other place) unless its competing to be on the top which makes it etertaining.  That competition and strive is what makes people get better and really enhances the fun of playing while also working to reach a goal that will feel SO gratifying to hit.

The best part is players WILL see that content. As expansions are released, it opens the door for that old content once barred to be experienced and they can see just what they missed. Are you the type that really thinks you would get the same sense of joy having a rubix cube already solved with you just having 1 twist to win as you would solving a rubix cube from the start completely on your own? 

Oh and as a FYI, I played Vanilla and BC, and I NEVER hit the Black Temple (Before changes/nerfs) and I was greatly enjoying raiding every week and working my way up.

Originally posted by Karteli

But it gives players something to srive toward.. A goal.

 

You can say all you want that everyone should have equal access to all content, but there is no longevity in a game like this.  Why bother to keep logging on if you can have end game a day or 2 after creating a character?

 

Reaching the impossible is what keeps players coming back, something that moden MMO's have completely lost.  Everything is casual friendly now.

 

This means more money initially, but far less in the long run.

Only the insane have goals they know they can never achieve.  WoW was setting the bar far beyond what average players could strive for.  It is like you looking up at the stars and setting a goal to fly to another planet.  Maybe you are a NASA pilot and have that chance, but I'm betting your job isn't going to get you in space.

"Why bother to keep logging on if you can have end game a day or 2 after creating a character?"

Now you're just pushing your elitist attitude.  This must be an exaggeration or the average person would have quit playing long ago.  Maybe the 1% crowd has done this after playing the beta extensively.  The game isn't catering to the 1% anymore.  Provide a link for a fact like this or it is simply an exaggeration.

Originally posted by Johnie-Marz

I agree with the video. By todays standard what he is talking about is called a grind and considered bad; You had to work to see content because it was hard. But it also made downing bosses an achievement. 

(And now days when blizzard does add content that is more difficult, like the heroic troll dungeons. Players just complain and then no one wants to tank)

I don't think this is a grind. a Grind would be doing dailies until you had equipment. Having to actually run content to get equiped seems different.

One thing that was nice about sunweel but at the same time crappy was is easy access high equip from dailies.

Originally posted by Purutzil

The best part is players WILL see that content. As expansions are released, it opens the door for that old content once barred to be experienced and they can see just what they missed. 

But there is no point in "seeing it" once the content has become irrelevant through the release of an expansion.  It would be like you going back to a starter zone after completing yours just to "see it."  Once you progress past the content, it becomes meaningless.

Originally posted by Lissyl

No.

You know what happened to that teary-eyed trip down nostalgia lane?  The raiders happened.

When, in TBC, they decided it was better to poach other guilds instead of taking newer players, it happened.  When they decided that it was no longer their place to teach new people how to raid, it happened.  When they decided that they were too good to have to regear new recruits, it happened.  They did it to themselves.  And what -happened- was that a chain of guilds started forming and people would move from one to another to another straight on up until they saw the content...then many of them would go on their way.  After all, you recruit a bunch of guild-hoppers, why would you be surprised when they guild-hop?  This led to only an incredibly tiny number of people seeing anything and led to extreme frustration on the part of everyone else who -also- wanted that magical journey but couldn't get it because of the guys at the top stealing their talent out of laziness.  They left the room for the 'we deserve to see it too' argument, and -now- they're all misty-eyed about it, complaining to all and sundry about how the games are trash nowadays, all the while refusing to accept the responsibility for causing it in the first place.

No, what was trash was the entitlement attitude that the top raiders had when they tore apart the guilding system.  You reap what you sow.

I had friends in a guild they were down a player and in in ssc and BT when i filled in.. i beat their well equiped dps with a toon with some blue and green equipment and tied others. I rocked it, and i had  not raided for some time. So while i hear you, i lived it and later i did it agian. The truth was guilds wanted good players, if your a bad player top end guilds down want you and rightfully so. New and inexperinced players need to gain experince in poor guilds first, to develop.

Just like anything else ... surrounding group play.

Originally posted by syntax42

Originally posted by Karteli

But it gives players something to srive toward.. A goal.

 

You can say all you want that everyone should have equal access to all content, but there is no longevity in a game like this.  Why bother to keep logging on if you can have end game a day or 2 after creating a character?

 

Reaching the impossible is what keeps players coming back, something that moden MMO's have completely lost.  Everything is casual friendly now.

 

This means more money initially, but far less in the long run.

Only the insane have goals they know they can never achieve.  WoW was setting the bar far beyond what average players could strive for.  It is like you looking up at the stars and setting a goal to fly to another planet.  Maybe you are a NASA pilot and have that chance, but I'm betting your job isn't going to get you in space.

 

"Why bother to keep logging on if you can have end game a day or 2 after creating a character?"

Now you're just pushing your elitist attitude.  This must be an exaggeration or the average person would have quit playing long ago.  Maybe the 1% crowd has done this after playing the beta extensively.  The game isn't catering to the 1% anymore.  Provide a link for a fact like this or it is simply an exaggeration.

Do you see the influx of MMO's coming out that have no longevity?  Do you see how subscribers are not sticking?  I don't want to call you blind, but the idea does come to mind.

An attitude is simply an exertion of ones self.  Simply, to my statements, there is no MMO released since WoW Vanilla / TBC that has longevity, because new MMO's are stupidly simple.  This is not what gamers want .  WoW holds a special pass because players have commitment to their characters.  New MMO's just fail because they keep trying to give players every angle of the game as soon as they load it. /fail

You guys really enjoy the mindless grinding of materials and items just to progress to another raid?

You enjoy waiting every week to do a raid because its on cooldown?

Hell in BC I couldn't gear up to tank simply because w/ever that tanking sword was in the heroic with the bloodelf/robot boss never dropped for me.

I litterally remember running the instance a month straight everyday and never getting the sword to even drop.

No guild would take me with out that sword.

Is that what you guys consider fun?  I mean I did that instance so many times people were amazed that I could hold agro so well with my PoS tanking axe from a quest.

I could never get past the feeling that the game was a job.  I remember playing WoW one afternoon thinking how cool it would be to clone my self and have one me go to work and the other me play WoW.  I sat there and realised I would rather go to work than play WoW because of how much of a job it felt like.  And then proceeded to cancel my subscription and never went back.

Maybe for some of you this grinding was fun but not for me.  Doing the samething months on end to see no progression or no reward is not fun.  Also relying on 39 other people just sounds terrible to me.  It was hard enough to rely on the foot runners at my job to run food properly I couldnt imagine working with 39 other people on the internet to do a raid.

I don't find waiting for a day to do something enjoyable.  I don't think real life timers should enter a video game setting.  Its the defining thing that turns a game into a job for me.

There is a difference between working for something and doing a mindless grind for little reward.  

I saw this video awhile back, and i disagree with it.  There is no reason that only a minority percentage of people should experience content.  Players should be able to experience 100% of the content that is offered to them.  When you only have around 1% of raiders doing Naxx, something is wrong with the design.

The argument he makes, that it should be earned, doesn't hold up either, because currently you can earn the achievements in the game proving that you did finish the content.  The only difference is, that in the past, it required more time; not more skill, or more strategy.  The top guilds would always release videos and strategy guides anyway, and the rest would copy.

Is the current system perfect? No, but it's a lot better by giving everyone access to the content.  The Dungeon Finder & Raid Finder helped greatly with this.

The real question is; At what pace should players experience 5 man dungeon & raid content?

Originally posted by Karteli

 Do you see the influx of MMO's coming out that have no longevity?  Do you see how subscribers are not sticking?  I don't want to call you blind, but the idea does come to mind.

 

An attitude is simply an exertion of ones self.  Simply, to my statements, there is no MMO released since WoW Vanilla / TBC that has longevity, because new MMO's are stupidly simple.  This is not what gamers want .  WoW holds a special pass because players have commitment to their characters.  New MMO's just fail because they keep trying to give players every angle of the game as soon as they load it. /fail

Again, you're exaggerating.  You don't get full sets of epic gear just for logging in.  Instead of claiming things are given away for free in MMOs, look at what is really happening.  Rewards are earned in less time and the randomization that used to frustrate players (like the person 2 posts above me) is being taken out.  Are you that bothered by the fact that you don't feel special because others can obtain the same rewards as you, making you feel less unique and less accomplished?  

Plenty of MMOs are achieving success.  I'm not blind.  You're holding these tiny light bulbs and comparing them to the sun and saying they must be broken because they aren't as bright.  Duplicating the success of the most successful MMO is like attempting to duplicate Microsoft or the king of any other industry.  It takes more than a good product to reach that kind of success.  A game doesn't have to do that to be good, though.  Earning a profit and making a fun game is still a success in my book.

The MMO that will replicate the success of WoW will need to cater to the casual crowd while giving elitists something to strive for that makes them feel special.  The key is to not let the reward obtained by the elitists affect the casual players in a way that makes them feel like they are missing out.

Originally posted by syntax42

Originally posted by Karteli

 Do you see the influx of MMO's coming out that have no longevity?  Do you see how subscribers are not sticking?  I don't want to call you blind, but the idea does come to mind.

 

An attitude is simply an exertion of ones self.  Simply, to my statements, there is no MMO released since WoW Vanilla / TBC that has longevity, because new MMO's are stupidly simple.  This is not what gamers want .  WoW holds a special pass because players have commitment to their characters.  New MMO's just fail because they keep trying to give players every angle of the game as soon as they load it. /fail

Again, you're exaggerating.  You don't get full sets of epic gear just for logging in.  Instead of claiming things are given away for free in MMOs, look at what is really happening.  Rewards are earned in less time and the randomization that used to frustrate players (like the person 2 posts above me) is being taken out.  Are you that bothered by the fact that you don't feel special because others can obtain the same rewards as you, making you feel less unique and less accomplished?  

 

Plenty of MMOs are achieving success.  I'm not blind.  You're holding these tiny light bulbs and comparing them to the sun and saying they must be broken because they aren't as bright.  Duplicating the success of the most successful MMO is like attempting to duplicate Microsoft or the king of any other industry.  It takes more than a good product to reach that kind of success.  A game doesn't have to do that to be good, though.  Earning a profit and making a fun game is still a success in my book.

 

The MMO that will replicate the success of WoW will need to cater to the casual crowd while giving elitists something to strive for that makes them feel special.  The key is to not let the reward obtained by the elitists affect the casual players in a way that makes them feel like they are missing out.

There are a lot of games available. I believe that makes it difficult for one game to become big like WoW. To much competition. Even if some of them are very good games...

When WoW was released it was special. There was no other game like it. And there was also a lot of loyal Blizzard fans that wanted to try it. People that had never played MMO:s with friends that had never played MMO:s. Today the market is different.  MMO:s are not a new genre for most gamers. People play a game and when a new game is released they want to try that instead.

Originally posted by syntax42

Originally posted by Karteli

 Do you see the influx of MMO's coming out that have no longevity?  Do you see how subscribers are not sticking?  I don't want to call you blind, but the idea does come to mind.

 

An attitude is simply an exertion of ones self.  Simply, to my statements, there is no MMO released since WoW Vanilla / TBC that has longevity, because new MMO's are stupidly simple.  This is not what gamers want .  WoW holds a special pass because players have commitment to their characters.  New MMO's just fail because they keep trying to give players every angle of the game as soon as they load it. /fail

Again, you're exaggerating.  You don't get full sets of epic gear just for logging in.  Instead of claiming things are given away for free in MMOs, look at what is really happening.  Rewards are earned in less time and the randomization that used to frustrate players (like the person 2 posts above me) is being taken out.  Are you that bothered by the fact that you don't feel special because others can obtain the same rewards as you, making you feel less unique and less accomplished?  

 

Plenty of MMOs are achieving success.  I'm not blind.  You're holding these tiny light bulbs and comparing them to the sun and saying they must be broken because they aren't as bright.  Duplicating the success of the most successful MMO is like attempting to duplicate Microsoft or the king of any other industry.  It takes more than a good product to reach that kind of success.  A game doesn't have to do that to be good, though.  Earning a profit and making a fun game is still a success in my book.

 

The MMO that will replicate the success of WoW will need to cater to the casual crowd while giving elitists something to strive for that makes them feel special.  The key is to not let the reward obtained by the elitists affect the casual players in a way that makes them feel like they are missing out.

I played a llot of Vanilla WoW back in the day, and I never got near Naxx.  My guild only got close to finishing Blackwing Lair (BWL).  I don't feel special, and I don't feel jaded, .. I envy all those players who actually did go past where I was.

If I was able to clear Karazan in a day with my guild within the first week or 2 of TBC, I doubt I would have still played WoW.  It was the strive for something "more" that kept players like me logging in.

The genre seems to be more controlled now by players who couldn't really form social bonds and couldn't be asked to sit in a chair for several hours to participate.  It's all NOW NOW NOW. blech.

I'm not an elitist, I was just an average player, but I had a ton of fun then.  The Elitist argument is null .. fun is fun.  At least back in the mid 2000's gamers had the option of going hardcore or going casual .. MMO's today are all casual with no option.  Which is why they lack longevity, IMO.

sorry your argument defeats itself.

u want players to enjoy the journey, but less then 1% were seeing the content, there was no journey for the rest of the players.

being difficult for the sake of being difficult is not a genius design, it's lazy, and cutting off players from seeing content is never a good thing. notably when it comes to these lobby style raiding-is-the-only-end-game style titles with a monthly fee. they needed to make two raids, one for the elitist jerks and one for the rest of the playerbase.

Originally posted by itgrowls

sorry your argument defeats itself.

u want players to enjoy the journey, but less then 1% were seeing the content, there was no journey for the rest of the players.

being difficult for the sake of being difficult is not a genius design, it's lazy, and cutting off players from seeing content is never a good thing. notably when it comes to these lobby style raiding-is-the-only-end-game style titles with a monthly fee. they needed to make two raids, one for the elitist jerks and one for the rest of the playerbase.

 

That argument is why I hate MMO's sometimes.  MMO's used to bring gamers together to play.  Now they just bring anyone and everyone, with the entitlement you speak of (thanks WoW).  You expect to have the whole game layed out for you, and you don't expect to work for anything.  You expect to be on equal ground with everyone, even though you play 10 minutes per week versus others that spend 20 hours per week.

Wonderful.

Heres something for you .. the extra content was not meant for you.  If you strive for it, you might achieve it, but it isn't guaranteed.  It is, however, there for the taking.  You are not being opressed.

If I play any game I don't simply demand to see the end-game cinematic.  I want to work for it.  Why even buy a game when you only want to see the end?  Buy Mario Bros and demand to see the Princess rescued, without struggling through Mario's trials and tribulations? oh my.. Mama-mia.

Originally posted by Karteli

I played a llot of Vanilla WoW back in the day, and I never got near Naxx.  My guild only got close to finishing Blackwing Lair (BWL).  I don't feel special, and I don't feel jaded, .. I envy all those players who actually did go past where I was.

If I was able to clear Karazan in a day with my guild within the first week or 2 of TBC, I doubt I would have still played WoW.  It was the strive for something "more" that kept players like me logging in.

The genre seems to be more controlled now by players who couldn't really form social bonds and couldn't be asked to sit in a chair for several hours to participate.  It's all NOW NOW NOW. blech.

 

I'm not an elitist, I was just an average player, but I had a ton of fun then.  The Elitist argument is null .. fun is fun.  At least back in the mid 2000's gamers had the option of going hardcore or going casual .. MMO's today are all casual with no option.  Which is why they lack longevity, IMO.

I get it then.  You want a carrot-on-a-stick that you can never get but always have to chase.  There is nothing wrong with wanting that.  I think the game has changed for the better for people like me, who want to see content without feeling like we are excluded for having a real life.  The gear and difficulty progression system made the carrot on a stick attractive for some, but frustrating for others.  As I pointed out, the next MMO to achieve WoW's success will have to ensure the carrot isn't attractive to the casual crowd but still give something to chase for the crowd that wants to chase a carrot.  If I could figure out how to do that, I would be pitching my game idea to companies right now.

Originally posted by Karteli

Originally posted by itgrowls

sorry your argument defeats itself.

u want players to enjoy the journey, but less then 1% were seeing the content, there was no journey for the rest of the players.

being difficult for the sake of being difficult is not a genius design, it's lazy, and cutting off players from seeing content is never a good thing. notably when it comes to these lobby style raiding-is-the-only-end-game style titles with a monthly fee. they needed to make two raids, one for the elitist jerks and one for the rest of the playerbase.

 

That argument is why I hate MMO's sometimes.  MMO's used to bring gamers together to play.  Now they just bring anyone and everyone, with the entitlement you speak of (thanks WoW).  You expect to have the whole game layed out for you, and you don't expect to work for anything.  You expect to be on equal ground with everyone, even though you play 10 minutes per week versus others that spend 20 hours per week.

 

Wonderful.

 

Heres something for you .. the extra content was not meant for you.  If you strive for it, you might achieve it, but it isn't guaranteed.  It is, however, there for the taking.  You are not being opressed.

 

If I play any game I don't simply demand to see the end-game cinematic.  I want to work for it.  Why even buy a game when you only want to see the end?  Buy Mario Bros and demand to see the Princess rescued, without struggling through Mario's trials and tribulations? oh my.. Mama-mia.

I thought you were understanding the other side's point of view until I saw this post.  Again, you're exaggerating things far beyond the reality of the situation.  

The post by itgrowls was not expressing a sense of entitlement.  It is the same argument I made earlier.  Why even make a game if only a small percentage of people who play it can enjoy it?  Vanilla WoW wasn't made so that you had to earn your way through the content.  You had to get lucky with drops and rolls, in addition to playing more hours than an average person can spend gaming.

Nobody is asking for end-game to be handed to them.  We just want to be able to get there.  The system they had in place did not allow that for most people.  It wasn't atttainable.  We want attainable, not a free hand-out.

You are being an elitist without realizing it.  You want something that only the elite can reach.  Anything less is a hand-out to you, which is a complete exaggeration of the truth.  Get your head out of the dark hole it is in and face reality.

Originally posted by syntax42

Originally posted by Karteli

I played a llot of Vanilla WoW back in the day, and I never got near Naxx.  My guild only got close to finishing Blackwing Lair (BWL).  I don't feel special, and I don't feel jaded, .. I envy all those players who actually did go past where I was.

If I was able to clear Karazan in a day with my guild within the first week or 2 of TBC, I doubt I would have still played WoW.  It was the strive for something "more" that kept players like me logging in.

The genre seems to be more controlled now by players who couldn't really form social bonds and couldn't be asked to sit in a chair for several hours to participate.  It's all NOW NOW NOW. blech.

 

I'm not an elitist, I was just an average player, but I had a ton of fun then.  The Elitist argument is null .. fun is fun.  At least back in the mid 2000's gamers had the option of going hardcore or going casual .. MMO's today are all casual with no option.  Which is why they lack longevity, IMO.

 

I get it then.  You want a carrot-on-a-stick that you can never get but always have to chase.  There is nothing wrong with wanting that.  I think the game has changed for the better for people like me, who want to see content without feeling like we are excluded for having a real life.  The gear and difficulty progression system made the carrot on a stick attractive for some, but frustrating for others.  As I pointed out, the next MMO to achieve WoW's success will have to ensure the carrot isn't attractive to the casual crowd but still give something to chase for the crowd that wants to chase a carrot.  If I could figure out how to do that, I would be pitching my game idea to companies right now.

Aye, if it was figured out, it would be done :-)

The carrot on the stick is in all games really.  It's a combination of social interaction capabilities and the number of carrots on the stick that seem to determine longevity.  No social bonds = customers gone.  Eat the last carrot = customers gone.  MMO's of the past had this down (a few still do though not mainstream).

Don't feed your customers all the carrots in the first month, and institute tools for heavy social interaction.  Because a solo gamer who feels that he/she has finished the game will leave.  Leaving = lost revenue, possibly resulting in a failed game, ESPECIALLY if a critical mass departs.

This can really be applied to many recent releases, SWTOR in particular.  Maybe GW2 also, but too early to tell (XFire is tanking though. 10-20% per week).

But look at SWTOR, the game was EZ mode pretty much, targetting a "casual" market.  Some fans got pissy and left.  Many others didn't like what they saw.  The future of SWTOR is hinging on F2P now.  It just didn't have either social interactions or a carrott on the stick .. or at least not in MMO sense.  Any raid gear in SWTOR was just 5% better than old gear with rediculous graphics .. raid gear was easy to get or it was something similar found on the AH (either or).  Zzzzzz.  Hardly a carrot, and more people could care less.

Originally posted by Lissyl

No.

You know what happened to that teary-eyed trip down nostalgia lane?  The raiders happened.

When, in TBC, they decided it was better to poach other guilds instead of taking newer players, it happened.  When they decided that it was no longer their place to teach new people how to raid, it happened.  When they decided that they were too good to have to regear new recruits, it happened.  They did it to themselves.  And what -happened- was that a chain of guilds started forming and people would move from one to another to another straight on up until they saw the content...then many of them would go on their way.  After all, you recruit a bunch of guild-hoppers, why would you be surprised when they guild-hop?  This led to only an incredibly tiny number of people seeing anything and led to extreme frustration on the part of everyone else who -also- wanted that magical journey but couldn't get it because of the guys at the top stealing their talent out of laziness.  They left the room for the 'we deserve to see it too' argument, and -now- they're all misty-eyed about it, complaining to all and sundry about how the games are trash nowadays, all the while refusing to accept the responsibility for causing it in the first place.

No, what was trash was the entitlement attitude that the top raiders had when they tore apart the guilding system.  You reap what you sow.

This is true on all points I was in a top end raiding guild in vanilla we were doing mc when the teir gear didnt even have graphics yet and dropped teir 2 items aswell and did see the end of naxx had 9/9 teir 3 and we got most of are raiders from other guilds if someone left. It took to long to regear and teach a new person so we snag the most geared people we could find and teach them less time invested. On a side note I sold my 9/9 teir 3 char for 2000 dollars had thudefury aswell this shows the lengths people would go to to see content which is a shame. Yes we did it to are selves I say many people just go to new realms trying to find a guild to see the content. Me and my best friend coudn't even raid together cause my guild had to many druids so he went to a new server..Now we play together and love it.