Originally posted by Randayn

Originally posted by Torgrim

Originally posted by Randayn

GW2 is linear...sure you can go back levels, but you can't progress without leveling.  

 

If GW2 is linear as you say then RIFT,WOW,LOTRO,AoC,EQ2,TSW,STO,SWTOR are on rails.

I never said they were'nt actually....the comment came from the other poster that GW2 wasn't linear...

Any themepark is going to be linear in one way or another...that's what themeparks are....

 

Read my post again, I said there was no linear questing!!!! The game has horizontal game design. If you dont get it watch this video.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0Zn81sY7pqI

Originally posted by Randayn

Originally posted by Creslin321

Originally posted by Randayn

Originally posted by Creslin321

Originally posted by Randayn

Combat: +1

Particularly when combat is so tough. Bosses in the game’s dungeons – currently eight story-led runs through gauntlets of tough enemies, necessitating a powerful group – can feel more like a Dark Souls enemy than a World Of Warcraft foe, forcing assailants to learn attack patterns and movements, not simply their own skill rotation.

 

I would give combat a -1 because it's strategy is revolved around twitch rather than preparation and thought.  If I wanted to have play a twitch combat game, I'd play an FPS...I play RPG's/MMORPG's because I'd rather have to think on my way to battle, before battle and during battle....I said it before, twitch/instinct is the absence of thought.  RPG's/MMORPGs, at least I thought, were more a thinking person's game than anything.  This game has destroyed this concept and set a new precident...you don't have to think to play.  To prove that, I can make a video of my 8 year old son playing the game flawlessly if you'd like.  He even uses his skill points and moves his skills over to be able to use.

He tried to play Ryzom, Anarchy Online, AoC (even though this isnt even a thinking person's game really) and TSW and could not....died ALOT and the skill system for each (except for AoC) baffled him.

I don't usually use my child as a psychology experiment, but this time it proved useful.

 Twitch and strategy are not mutually exclusive.  Look at Starcraft, it is basically equal parts twitch and strategy.

I don't think GW2 is as strategical as SC (but then again no MMO is), but I don't think it's pure twitch.  There are plenty of tactics you can do in GW2 that actual require thought and oftentimes coordination.  For example, a mesmer can trait himself so that anytime people enter or exit his fields (glamors) they get a stack of confusion.

He can then go to a busy control point and put down a portal field, and proceed to just kite everyone around as they run through the portal field (it's small) over and over again, getting 2 stacks of confusion each time, and proceed to kill themselves by attacking him.

When I say twitch, I mean "in the moment"....the skill system in GW2 is definitely setup for "in the moment" combat.  Compare it to Ryzom, Anarchy Online or TSW where every decision you make as far as skills to choose goes and the difference is obvious.  I could spend hours trying to figure out how to properly alot points into the right places for my MA in AO.  I can spend hours trying to craft together new spells, attacks and such in Ryzom.  Took me a complete re-roll just get my skills selection right in TSW...you don't get it right and you'll know by the fact that you get pwnd every fight.  

GW2 is plug 'n' play....don't have to worry about all the skill stuff...sure you have to worry about it in dungeons, but that's any game, including the unVanilla WoW...

 You can spend hours trying to come up with a build in GW2 as well...there are really TONS of combinations when you take into account:

1.  Equipment (and sigils/runes on equipment)

2.  Traits (lots of combinations here)

3.  Skill selection

4.  Weapon selection

There are probably tens of thousands of different build combinations you can try and experiment with so I really don't see how GW2 is any less deep than the other games you mention.  And even once you create that build, you need to make the right decisions about when you use your skills...many of them have long cooldowns.

And no, it's no purely reactive like you seem to indicate.  There are plenty of tactics that involve planning...like the mesmer one I mentioned before.

The only argument I can see is that the open world stuff can (at times) be so zerged that your build really doesn't matter much.  But this is just a small part of the game.  At this point, most DEs aren't zerged.

And your build/decisions definitely matter there.

I think we're on the same page then.  As far as open world, I never once had to worry about skills and such....dungeons don't count though, because as I said, you must develop a strategy in any dungeon in any game....if that wasn't the case then the developers should feel ashamed of themselves.

But why would anyone want an open world that can be run through spamming any button? (my son has done this and to my amazement, did not die....this was with my 22 norn warrior I dont play anymore)

 In some locations, and in some situations, you most definitely can run through the open world spamming 1 and do fine...but these situations only occur when you are in such a huge zerg that they wind up pulling your weight.  And TBH, it's fairly rare now that the population has spread and thinned out.

I can tell you from personal experience, that if you are not in a massive zerg, or are very low level, then running through the world spamming 1 will result in your dying horribly ;).

I would say its one of the best mmos I've played in years along with Rift . It still fall short of that initial wow factor I had with Warcraft Vanilla . None the less still a great game and brilliant value .

Looking forward to the War Z and Planetside 2 as well now which are both buy to play mmos .

Dont really see any reason to pay a sub ever again .

Well not unless theres something totally amazing and revolutionary comes out thats not completly casual .

Originally posted by roo67

I would say its one of the best mmos I've played in years along with Rift . It still fall short of that initial wow factor I had with Warcraft Vanilla . None the less still a great game and brilliant value .

Looking forward to the War Z and Planetside 2 as well now which are both buy to play mmos .

Dont really see any reason to pay a sub ever again .

Well not unless theres something totally amazing and revolutionary comes out thats not completly casual .

Yeah it's really hard for me to say whether I think that GW2 or vanilla WoW is the better game.  I'm totally loving GW2 now, and it's definitely been my favorite game since it came out...but I felt that way about vanilla WoW too lol :).  And on that note, I also felt that way about UO and EQ.

So yeah, impossible to say, all I know is that, so far, GW2 is up in the pantheon of champions for me with EQ, WoW, and UO.

Originally posted by roo67

I would say its one of the best mmos I've played in years along with Rift . It still fall short of that initial wow factor I had with Warcraft Vanilla . None the less still a great game and brilliant value .

Looking forward to the War Z and Planetside 2 as well now which are both buy to play mmos .

Dont really see any reason to pay a sub ever again .

Well not unless theres something totally amazing and revolutionary comes out thats not completly casual .

feel the same.. although think the initial wow factor in warcraft was more due to the time and  I have played sooooo many MMOs since then it takes a lot to really excite me in this genre.. luckily GW2 is the first since vanilla wow to really bring back my enjoyment of MMOs.. although i did have an enjoyable time in Rift and TSW recently

Originally posted by Nanfoodle

Originally posted by Randayn

Originally posted by Torgrim

Originally posted by Randayn

GW2 is linear...sure you can go back levels, but you can't progress without leveling.  

 

If GW2 is linear as you say then RIFT,WOW,LOTRO,AoC,EQ2,TSW,STO,SWTOR are on rails.

I never said they were'nt actually....the comment came from the other poster that GW2 wasn't linear...

Any themepark is going to be linear in one way or another...that's what themeparks are....

 

Read my post again, I said there was no linear questing!!!! The game has horizontal game design. If you dont get it watch this video.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0Zn81sY7pqI

 

Taugrim is only just a little biased in that video. He's not comparing the good and the bad of both. He's comparing the good of one against the bad of the other. He points out all the flaws that apply to Vertical scaling. Too bad 90% of the issue in PVE revolves around Raiding and raid gear. If you are in these games, and you don't raid, you don't have these isues, and I'll still argue that you don't need BiS to compete in heroic/Expert dungeons. I do just fine without top teir raid gear...More than just fine. I hold my own quite well. So how's that relevant to GW2 with no raiding? It's not, it's comparing apples to.....well, nothing.  Then he spells out all the benefits to Horizontal levleing without mentioning any of the drawbacks either. That's always good for an unbiased opinion. 

Originally posted by boxsnd

Originally posted by KhinRunite

Originally posted by boxsnd

Originally posted by Ethos86

Originally posted by boxsnd

Today I learned that:

1) an MMO with its endgame in the cons list can get more than 5/10 in the overall score.

Definition of endgame is "things to do once level cap is hit". By this definition there are tons of stuff to do after you hit 80. Depending on how you reached 80 you could still do personal story, craft legendary, complete dungeons and paths (story and explorable), complete the world map, WvWvW. I personally don't know why you'd put endgame in the cons list unless you're looking for themepark raids, arenas, and basically gear for power up treadmill. It's not required for MMOs to have those. ANet is probably more interested in catering to the demographic that dislike large scale scheduled raids. Also, I believe currently unavailable zones will be opened via patch much like WoW opening raids in major patches.

2) GW2 has "fantastic story and dungeons"

The difficulty of dungeons are putting off some players. I haven't done any yet, but the mini dungeons are fun. Also you need to let the personal story gain some momentum. It starts out slow as it introduces the player's backstory, but on my story I can feel things are about to get big.

3) GW2's copy pasted dynamic events are somehow better than classic questing.

Dunno why you had to associate "copy-pasted" with DEs, but omit them from classic quests. They're equally repetitive in nature, but DEs help make the world appear more alive. They give incentive to revisiting an area. Starting an event for the first time gives the feeling of discovery. That's not to say the current implementation of DEs are perfect, but I personally prefer the GW2 way over, say...WoW.

4) GW2 losing 40-50% of its player base within a month (see xfire+raptr) means it has longevity 9/10

Xfire is only meritable on discussions revolving around Xfire. I'm not in denial that population is stabilizing, but I could post server status displaying Full, High, Medium, etc. and that still won't prove anything because there's no actual numbers. As for longetivity, like I said there's tons of things to do, and let's not forget ANet will keep new (free) content coming.

5) not having to group or interact with anyone from 1 to 80+full exotics gives the game a social 8/10

You may have chosen not to interact with others, but asking for POIs, vistas, assistance with more difficult SP challenges, secret puzzles, and champion mob have to count for interaction. I see people do these. I do these. It's shortsighted to think that just because we're no longer forced to interact there's no more interaction to be had. Forced grouping isn't a metric for Socialization.

6) the dungeon grind can be a con while at the same time the dungeons are "fantastic". How does that work exactly? If the dungeons were fun the grind would be fun.

No comment. Haven't done dungeons. Maybe someone else will take this.

Haters, it's amusing.

I hope at least you were paid to create a new account over here and post this on your first day's first post. So funny to see these account stats right below your name.

Here's what I learned today: Trolls are too obvious.

Yet you don't even attempt to counter my arguments.

I said I wouldn't do this anymore, but you asked for it...

Unfortunately I couldn't give firsthand comments on some stuff as I haven't even experienced half of the game yet (my main is  only at level 48)

Your whole text in green is invalidated by the fact that you are level 48 and haven't done a dungeon yet. Trust me, I was just as excited at level 48. Come back to us after you spend 1-2 weeks at level 80. (if you make it that far) 

 

And btw I tried to be social. I tried inviting people who were on the same quest and got either ignored or yelled at ("we can do everything without having to group" etc), I tried grouping with friends but the hearts drove us to solo all the time(some of them are slower players than me and it's painful to always have to wait for them to finish their heart) . Also grouping gave us NO advantage whatsoever(soloing is faster actually), so why do it?

Funny... What I read into your last paragraph is that you are quite anti social.

There is absolutley no problem socializing in the game it's certain type of people that are the problem. I dont need any kind of advantage to socialize and have a good time with people in game or out.

[mod edit]

Originally posted by Aerowyn

Originally posted by roo67

I would say its one of the best mmos I've played in years along with Rift . It still fall short of that initial wow factor I had with Warcraft Vanilla . None the less still a great game and brilliant value .

Looking forward to the War Z and Planetside 2 as well now which are both buy to play mmos .

Dont really see any reason to pay a sub ever again .

Well not unless theres something totally amazing and revolutionary comes out thats not completly casual .

feel the same.. although think the initial wow factor in warcraft was more due to the time and  I have played sooooo many MMOs since then it takes a lot to really excite me in this genre.. luckily GW2 is the first since vanilla wow to really bring back my enjoyment of MMOs.. although i did have an enjoyable time in Rift and TSW recently

I too feel the same and agree with you it will take alot to really excite me since ive been in this genre for 14+ years now.  As for Rift and TSW was really excited for the potential of those 2 until they decided to blow it all to hell with their endgame model of vertical gear threadmill/WoW clone.

Originally posted by Creslin321

Originally posted by roo67

I would say its one of the best mmos I've played in years along with Rift . It still fall short of that initial wow factor I had with Warcraft Vanilla . None the less still a great game and brilliant value .

Looking forward to the War Z and Planetside 2 as well now which are both buy to play mmos .

Dont really see any reason to pay a sub ever again .

Well not unless theres something totally amazing and revolutionary comes out thats not completly casual .

Yeah it's really hard for me to say whether I think that GW2 or vanilla WoW is the better game.

Really? One was built on the broken systems of an older MMO and never did anything new or innovative.

The other actually brought some new ideas to the table and brought back some great old ones.

Then again, I'm of the camp that thought WoW was a bad, boring, uninspired game all the way through.

GW2 will always get praise from me for doing away with the moronic practice of quest based leveling.

Originally posted by DavisFlight

Originally posted by Creslin321

Originally posted by roo67

I would say its one of the best mmos I've played in years along with Rift . It still fall short of that initial wow factor I had with Warcraft Vanilla . None the less still a great game and brilliant value .

Looking forward to the War Z and Planetside 2 as well now which are both buy to play mmos .

Dont really see any reason to pay a sub ever again .

Well not unless theres something totally amazing and revolutionary comes out thats not completly casual .

Yeah it's really hard for me to say whether I think that GW2 or vanilla WoW is the better game.

Really? One was built on the broken systems of an older MMO and never did anything new or innovative.

The other actually brought some new ideas to the table and brought back some great old ones.

Then again, I'm of the camp that thought WoW was a bad, boring, uninspired game all the way through.

GW2 will always get praise from me for doing away with the moronic practice of quest based leveling.

 Yes, really.  I'm guessing you are referring to WoW when you say it was built off of the broken systems of older MMO's?

Not sure if you recall what open-world PvE in MMORPGs were like before WoW, but they were basically about camping spawns.  EQ, DAoC, AC, UO...I spent a very long time camping spawns in ALL of those games...it made up the majority of my PvE leveling/skilling experience.

WoW actually made it so there was a cohesive quest line to go through all the way to max level.  I think that's a big deal.  I also think it wasn't perfect, but still a big deal. 

Also, even if there was some game that had this before WoW...it doesn't matter.  The implementation of an idea is way way way WAY more important than the idea itself.  The fact of the matter is that WoW implemented quest-node leveling far better than any MMORPG to come before it.

Originally posted by DavisFlight

GW2 will always get praise from me for doing away with the moronic practice of quest based leveling.

But your still doing the "moronic quest based leveling" in GW2. Its just presented differently. It's still there, you just find it more fun than the traditional method.

Yeah, you can level through crafting but most level through combat/gather questing.

Originally posted by marcusfaith
When a game loses its challenge or goal, then it has lost fun factor. GW2 was fun for the first 80 levels because there is, at least, a level up factor being considered. Once you hit level 80, it's a grind. The end-game is simply PvP and gear grinding. For people who love those, the game is fun. For others, the game has ended.

For me, the game almost ended once I realized that all zones are the same: you go from one quest heart to another, while trying to complete everything in the map. There is no social value in the game, no in-game economy, and no real events (dynamic events do not count) that shape and alter how the world will be.

However, when I step back and look at the game title, the game did fulfill its goal. It is Guild Wars. It is meant for people who are into PvP. The PvE elements are there to attract those who aren't into PvP. As such, it is a success. At the same time, it can only hold that type of players' interest for so long until they realize the game is mediocre at best.

Still, it's a lot of fun for me. I just hope upcoming MMORPGs will do more in terms of the way socializing, in-game economy and diverse gameplay types (not just quest hubs everywhere) are being implemented. If that can be done, then the longevity of the game can be guaranteed based on the degree of the implementation.

 What game ever had real events that shape and alter how the world will be?

Originally posted by Creslin321

Originally posted by marcusfaith

When a game loses its challenge or goal, then it has lost fun factor. GW2 was fun for the first 80 levels because there is, at least, a level up factor being considered. Once you hit level 80, it's a grind. The end-game is simply PvP and gear grinding. For people who love those, the game is fun. For others, the game has ended.

For me, the game almost ended once I realized that all zones are the same: you go from one quest heart to another, while trying to complete everything in the map. There is no social value in the game, no in-game economy, and no real events (dynamic events do not count) that shape and alter how the world will be.

However, when I step back and look at the game title, the game did fulfill its goal. It is Guild Wars. It is meant for people who are into PvP. The PvE elements are there to attract those who aren't into PvP. As such, it is a success. At the same time, it can only hold that type of players' interest for so long until they realize the game is mediocre at best.

Still, it's a lot of fun for me. I just hope upcoming MMORPGs will do more in terms of the way socializing, in-game economy and diverse gameplay types (not just quest hubs everywhere) are being implemented. If that can be done, then the longevity of the game can be guaranteed based on the degree of the implementation.

What game ever had real events that shape and alter how the world will be?

 

However, think for a second: if the game world can be altered based on the events made by gamers, wouldn't you want to play in that living, breathing world? I, for one, do.

Originally posted by Nanfoodle

Originally posted by Randayn

Originally posted by Torgrim

Originally posted by Randayn

GW2 is linear...sure you can go back levels, but you can't progress without leveling.  

 

If GW2 is linear as you say then RIFT,WOW,LOTRO,AoC,EQ2,TSW,STO,SWTOR are on rails.

I never said they were'nt actually....the comment came from the other poster that GW2 wasn't linear...

Any themepark is going to be linear in one way or another...that's what themeparks are....

 

Read my post again, I said there was no linear questing!!!! The game has horizontal game design. If you dont get it watch this video.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0Zn81sY7pqI

 

Im good...no need to see the video...Please explain to me how leveling from 1-80 by going to different zones is horizontal game design?  And there is no horizontal skill progression, so please explain to me what's horizontal about this game??  if I turn the box 90 degrees from standing position, that is horizontal...but that's it...

Again, it's a farce...just because a designer says it, doesnt mean it's true...

Originally posted by Creslin321

Originally posted by DavisFlight

Originally posted by Creslin321

Originally posted by roo67

I would say its one of the best mmos I've played in years along with Rift . It still fall short of that initial wow factor I had with Warcraft Vanilla . None the less still a great game and brilliant value .

Looking forward to the War Z and Planetside 2 as well now which are both buy to play mmos .

Dont really see any reason to pay a sub ever again .

Well not unless theres something totally amazing and revolutionary comes out thats not completly casual .

Yeah it's really hard for me to say whether I think that GW2 or vanilla WoW is the better game.

Really? One was built on the broken systems of an older MMO and never did anything new or innovative.

The other actually brought some new ideas to the table and brought back some great old ones.

Then again, I'm of the camp that thought WoW was a bad, boring, uninspired game all the way through.

GW2 will always get praise from me for doing away with the moronic practice of quest based leveling.

 Yes, really.  I'm guessing you are referring to WoW when you say it was built off of the broken systems of older MMO's?

Not sure if you recall what open-world PvE in MMORPGs were like before WoW, but they were basically about camping spawns. They were in EQ, I never EVER camped a spawn in DAoC. EQ, DAoC, AC, UO...I spent a very long time camping spawns in ALL of those games...it made up the majority of my PvE leveling/skilling experience. You must have been doing something wrong then, because there were no mobs in demand enough in DAoC to be worth camping. And that problem was solved in WoW through instancing, which, other MMOS also had and used before WoW, EQ, specifically.

WoW actually made it so there was a cohesive quest line to go through all the way to max level. DAoC had a cohesive quest line from level 5 to level 50 called the Epic Quest, and it actually felt like a quest, not busy work.  I think that's a big deal.  I also think it wasn't perfect, but still a big deal. 

Also, even if there was some game that had this before WoW...it doesn't matter. Kinda does, yeah. The implementation of an idea is way way way WAY more important than the idea itself. Exactly, and the implementation was better or the same in most other games.  The fact of the matter is that WoW implemented quest-node leveling far better than any MMORPG to come before it. Incorrect.

Originally posted by Creslin321

Originally posted by marcusfaith
When a game loses its challenge or goal, then it has lost fun factor. GW2 was fun for the first 80 levels because there is, at least, a level up factor being considered. Once you hit level 80, it's a grind. The end-game is simply PvP and gear grinding. For people who love those, the game is fun. For others, the game has ended.

For me, the game almost ended once I realized that all zones are the same: you go from one quest heart to another, while trying to complete everything in the map. There is no social value in the game, no in-game economy, and no real events (dynamic events do not count) that shape and alter how the world will be.

However, when I step back and look at the game title, the game did fulfill its goal. It is Guild Wars. It is meant for people who are into PvP. The PvE elements are there to attract those who aren't into PvP. As such, it is a success. At the same time, it can only hold that type of players' interest for so long until they realize the game is mediocre at best.

Still, it's a lot of fun for me. I just hope upcoming MMORPGs will do more in terms of the way socializing, in-game economy and diverse gameplay types (not just quest hubs everywhere) are being implemented. If that can be done, then the longevity of the game can be guaranteed based on the degree of the implementation.

 What game ever had real events that shape and alter how the world will be?

Darkfall, Asheron's Call, Ultima Online... but especially Asheron's Call.

Originally posted by DavisFlight

Originally posted by Creslin321

Originally posted by marcusfaith
When a game loses its challenge or goal, then it has lost fun factor. GW2 was fun for the first 80 levels because there is, at least, a level up factor being considered. Once you hit level 80, it's a grind. The end-game is simply PvP and gear grinding. For people who love those, the game is fun. For others, the game has ended.

For me, the game almost ended once I realized that all zones are the same: you go from one quest heart to another, while trying to complete everything in the map. There is no social value in the game, no in-game economy, and no real events (dynamic events do not count) that shape and alter how the world will be.

However, when I step back and look at the game title, the game did fulfill its goal. It is Guild Wars. It is meant for people who are into PvP. The PvE elements are there to attract those who aren't into PvP. As such, it is a success. At the same time, it can only hold that type of players' interest for so long until they realize the game is mediocre at best.

Still, it's a lot of fun for me. I just hope upcoming MMORPGs will do more in terms of the way socializing, in-game economy and diverse gameplay types (not just quest hubs everywhere) are being implemented. If that can be done, then the longevity of the game can be guaranteed based on the degree of the implementation.

 What game ever had real events that shape and alter how the world will be?

Darkfall, Asheron's Call, Ultima Online... but especially Asheron's Call.

Don't forget Ryzom....cmon man