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The Pub at MMORPG.COM  » PVE is boring

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44 posts found
  Trudge34

Apprentice Member

Joined: 8/08/12
Posts: 389

10/05/12 9:22:16 AM#21
Originally posted by Kyleran
Originally posted by Loke666
Originally posted by bishbosh2
The problem with PVE is that it is that once you know how to do it, it loses its charm. It is impossible for developers to develop PVE content at the rate at which it is consumed and this means there will always be not enough content. Developers employ grind mechanics as a damage control and as a result we have silly things like gear grinds. 

It is not impossible at all, you just needs a slightly better AI. The problem is that the trinity combat  makes mobs retarded and whenever you increase the AI people tend to whine because they actually have to work a bit.

Look on the AI in modern FPS games compared to Doom, making mobs a bit smarter in MMOs doesnt really take a lot of bandwidth or anything, they dont need to be geniuses, just Forrest gump smart.

A bit more randomness wouldnt hurt either.

No need to hate on the trinity, it's not the root of all evil.  DAOC was as trinity as they come, a simple camp grinder, and yet the groups I was part of there wiped more than any modern MMO out there today.

Couple of reasons for this as I recall.  One, respawns were somewhat random, and more than once they would drop on you when least expecting it.  Also, aggro mechanics were unpredictable.  You might be facing a camp of 40 NPC's.....and most times your puller could peel away 20 of them (or whatever number was comfortable for the group without problem.  But every now and then, the whole camp came at you, with the predictable result of some or all of the group dying.

Heck, some mobs would chase you all the way to the zone line, so you had to be a pretty quick runner if you wanted to survive and come back and revive your party.

The trinity has suffered some, used to be a bit more complicated, you needed more than DPS, Tank, healer, was very important to have good, reliable crowd control and sometimes buffers and debuffers as well. (having 8 people in your group made this all possible)

Last but not least, taunting wasn't all powerful.  Often, if a healer wasn't very careful he would draw aggro from the mob that couldn't be pulled off by the tank no matter what they did, and healer just died.  (which made having a back up healer essential if the group was to pull through, and even then.)

When you talk about improving the AI in modern MMO's, most people point to modern raids which seem to me to be more excercises in "Dances with the Starts" or Simon Says.  Everyone memorizes the dance moves, executes well, and the content goes down.

My last point, PVE in single player games was often more engaging, because they could be more liberal with the design.  PVE in MMO's was generally the "work" you did to achieve some sort of goal, be it to level up, earn gold to buy/craft new gear, or help fund your guilds new castle.  You never really worried about it being terribly "fun" it was something you did to achieve a means. 

EVE is all about this, at the end of the day all PVE activities are done to support a greater metagame, by themselves they aren't particularly engaging (though I do love seeing ships go boom)  Right now I'm running logistics (healing) in Incursions, and all I do is orbit my anchor (tank) and shoot my allies with healing (shields) to keep them from dropping to the Sanshas. (npcs). 

You should see my screen, I have almost no visible room, just an endless pletheora of watchlists, fleet chat windows and the like.  I might as well be fighting from a submarine, the combat is very much akin to that.  Yet I enjoy this, it's "fun" in an odd sort of way, and the 150M ISK it brings in for a couple hours work is the real reward in the end.

 

 

 

 

Good post. I've never played DAoC but from what I've read about it from your posts over the past few months I think the group structure and PvE was fairly similar to EQ in some ways. I think another one of the big reasons PvE has become boring is the absolute joke of a challenge the mobs have become. I remember the EQ days of single pulls, chain or double if you were really good, and that being a pretty good challenge. I have a hard time doing these "Kill 10 X" quests to help these level 60 guards who could one shot me because they need a hero's help in defeating the big bad level 5 racoons...of death! I mean, if I can handle 3 or 4 of these at level 4...why do they need my help? All too much trying to make the player feel like the hero and all powerful when we should be a part of a virtual world.

I had this issue the past few nights of GW2. I'm just a recruit for the Vigil, yet I'm the one making tactical decisions against an invading Charr army? I'm the one getting coffee in one cutscene, then turned around and told to figure out where to position our troops and whether to assault them or defend our position? I thought you were the commander, that's what you told me last cutscene and told me to shut up because I was a lowly recruit.

Played: EQ1 (10 Years), Guild Wars, Rift, TERA
Tried: EQ2, Vanguard, Lord of the Rings Online, Dungeons and Dragons Online, Runes of Magic and countless others...
Currently Playing: GW2

Nytlok Sylas
80 Sylvari Ranger

  Vesavius

Old School

Joined: 3/08/04
Posts: 7151

Players come for the game, but they stay for the people- Most Devs have forgotten this.

10/05/12 9:27:18 AM#22
Originally posted by bishbosh2

PVE is boring to me.

 

 

There we go, that's better, now we can have a sensible talk about it.

 

To me it isn't. I enjoy it, just like a huge part of the MMORPG player base (I would even say the majority of the MMORPG player base).

 

You are free to go play those games that focus on PvP and avoid those that focus on PvE though.

  Mors.Magne

Advanced Member

Joined: 3/02/07
Posts: 1425

10/05/12 9:30:38 AM#23
Originally posted by bishbosh2
The problem with PVE is that it is that once you know how to do it, it loses its charm. It is impossible for developers to develop PVE content at the rate at which it is consumed and this means there will always be not enough content. Developers employ grind mechanics as a damage control and as a result we have silly things like gear grinds. 

 

Chess computers provide the best PvE - the 'artificial intelligence' scales to your level of ability and you may select the computer's style of attack (e.g. defensive / aggressive / random).

 

Basically I agree with you - this is an otherwise neglected area of development.

  Torik

Hard Core Member

Joined: 1/02/09
Posts: 2324

10/05/12 10:10:07 AM#24
Originally posted by bishbosh2
Originally posted by gordiflu

Well, then why on 99% of the games the pvp servers are the first ones to get empty and the last ones to get full?

And whast you said about "learning the drill" on pve can also apply to pvp.

What we need is two things: First, more sandbox elements (and please, sandbox does not mean full loot open pvp); second, we need companies to finally start researching properly into proceduraly generated content.

i think sandbox PVE is interesting because of the way PVP interacts with PVE in sandbox game. farming fire lizards in volcano mountain for their scales to make fire lizard scale armor seems like a good idea until you realise there is people there waiting to kill you and steal all your scales. PVP is what makes the PVE fun and exciting.

This is the basic dissonance of this debate.  You find teh PvE to be boring and need to spice things up with PvP.  I find many types of PvE fun and challenging so for me PvP is just a needless distraction from the 'real action'.

When I am at the beach and building sand castles, the fact that some random yahoo can come up to me and wreck my castle is a negative thing.  The PvE of castle builing is not made better by the PvP of dealing with people who like to wreck my work.  In that scenario the PvPers are like mosquitos: annoying but ultimately irrelevant to the real goals.

  Kyleran

Bitter Vet™

Joined: 9/13/06
Posts: 19006

Fools find no pleasure in understanding, but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV

10/05/12 11:23:44 AM#25
Originally posted by Loke666
Originally posted by Kyleran

The trinity is not the root of all evil, no and in the past we seen better and worse trinity systems, but you have to agree that it still makes mobs rather stupid and predictable.

Sorry, but tanking really needs to go if you want to improve PvE and we need a new group dynamic instead. Mobs must act more like humans and with tanks that just is impossible. 

Well, I think tanking does a reasonable job of simulating reality.

If you were in combat in the field, you really couldn't disengage from the heavy armor wearing dude swinging the broadsword in your face to go attack the archers standing in the background.

I mean, in a game, if we're going to let mobs move around in that pattern, they would have to suffer huge penalties for turning their back on the guys I previously mentioned since they'd get chewed to pieces.

Now I do agree, NPC mages should do more than cast one spell in a fight, or melee should block as well as attack, but overall I think a well managed trinity can do a decent job.

Its just what we have today sort of has been simplified too much IMO.....

 

 

"In these forums 'honest' seems to be a symonym for 'hates the game just like I do'" - ohioastro
Kyleran - Bitter Vet ™ since 2006
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon

  Jemcrystal

Elite Member

Joined: 1/02/08
Posts: 1329

Let em put a slave ring thru u're nose u're prob not going to like where they're taking you. Think.

10/05/12 1:27:16 PM#26
No, grinding is boring.  PvE is fun.  I am a fan of the PvP/PvE servers.  I'm just sick of the game being redesigned every ten seconds because PvP'ers are complaining about stats.  

http://img2.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20130324141403/gaea-the-legendary-realm/images/4/47/Illena1.jpg

  Myria

Apprentice Member

Joined: 5/07/09
Posts: 537

10/05/12 1:42:23 PM#27
Originally posted by bishbosh2
The problem with PVE is that it is that once you know how to do it, it loses its charm.

For better or ill, that's exactly how I feel about PvP.

People like to make the argument that fighting against a person is somehow different, usually because "anything can happen!!!!11!!!1!!", but it's really not. What you can do in-game in extremely constrained. You have a very limited set of skills you can use, and that's it. The amount of room for anything new and unusual is very small, and generally when someone finds something new and unusual that actually works, it, and its counters, propagate like lightning and very quickly are neither new nor unusual.

In my PvP experience, it doesn't take long to "know how to do it" and not much longer for the charm to wear off. Encountering an enemy player you quickly learn to analyze their likely class/build, generally not hard to discern in most games. From there you know there are a few useful things they could do and a whole lot of stupid things. There are a few useful things you can do to counter, and a whole lot of stupid things. You either do those useful things or you die, simple as that. The outcome boils down to numbers, class balance, a bit of luck, and who doesn't screw up. Really, in the end, not all that different at all from a PvE encounter, save that PvE mobs can do things players can't, which can on occasion add at least a little entertainment.

Overall I can count the number of PvP encounters that were at all surprising on one hand.

For PvE, I might need a digit or two from a second.

 

  kaiser3282

Tipster

Joined: 5/21/08
Posts: 2639

10/05/12 1:49:13 PM#28
Originally posted by Kyleran
Originally posted by Loke666
Originally posted by Kyleran

The trinity is not the root of all evil, no and in the past we seen better and worse trinity systems, but you have to agree that it still makes mobs rather stupid and predictable.

Sorry, but tanking really needs to go if you want to improve PvE and we need a new group dynamic instead. Mobs must act more like humans and with tanks that just is impossible. 

Well, I think tanking does a reasonable job of simulating reality.

If you were in combat in the field, you really couldn't disengage from the heavy armor wearing dude swinging the broadsword in your face to go attack the archers standing in the background.

I mean, in a game, if we're going to let mobs move around in that pattern, they would have to suffer huge penalties for turning their back on the guys I previously mentioned since they'd get chewed to pieces.

Now I do agree, NPC mages should do more than cast one spell in a fight, or melee should block as well as attack, but overall I think a well managed trinity can do a decent job.

Its just what we have today sort of has been simplified too much IMO.....

 

 

This is where I think GW2 did great in removing standard tanking and making the game more reliant on CC and staying on the target to make it want to fight back. Youre right in that IRL they wouldnt be able to just ignore the guy in heavy armor swinging at them, but thats not how tanking usually works. Traditional tanking revolves around the tank being able to simply use a taunt mechanic which forces the enemy to attack him and only him, wether the tank is on top of them or not, and the tank could simply sit there and not swing once yet still pull the aggro.

I always hated the idea of taunt mechanics and think theyre completely unrealistic. IRL if you were past the dude in heavy armor and chasing down an archer, about to finish him off, you wouldnt suddenyl stop, turn around, and run across the battlefield to chase the guy in heavy armor down while the archer goes back to shooting you from a distance just because the guy in heavy armor yelled something at you.

It just makes no sense at all. But if it was a situation where instead you were going after that archer, and a guy in heavy armor rushed in and knocked you on your ass and started hammering away at you trying to keep you from getting your footing and getting near his allies, then you wouldnt have much choice but to take care of him first.

The taunting becomes even more ridiculous when you have 2+ tanks who simply bounce aggro around between eachother. Its like "Hey that guy yelled something at us. Lets get him" 5 seconds later "That other guy yelled at us now. Get him instead" back and forth..... as they completely ignore the mage raining dozens of fireballs on them and the archer shooting them in the face with arrows.

Tanking / guarding mechanics that rely on actually posing a threat to, or being able to cripple a target = win

Tanking that relies on a silly taunt mechanic = fail

As I said, i like GW2s change in focus when it comes to this, as well as any other games that continue getting away from taunt mechanics wether they do it the same as GW2 or not. It gives the "tank" more of a realistic purpose, and also really allows the good "tanks" to shine. Anyone can sit there and press their taunt skill and insta-pull all the aggro, but it will take a more skilled "tank" to get and keep that aggro by utilizing CC at the right times and keeping constant pressure on the foe so they have no other option but to focus him.

  maccarthur2004

Hard Core Member

Joined: 10/02/12
Posts: 489

10/05/12 2:24:04 PM#29
Originally posted by gordiflu

Well, then why on 99% of the games the pvp servers are the first ones to get empty and the last ones to get full?

I have the opposite impression.

 

 

"What we are aiming in ArcheAge is to let the players feel the true fun of MMORPG by forming a community like real life by interacting with other players, whether it be conflict or cooperation." (Jake Song)

  maccarthur2004

Hard Core Member

Joined: 10/02/12
Posts: 489

10/05/12 2:28:24 PM#30
Originally posted by Reizla Why do games like DF and MO not have the millions of subscribers because of the lack of the boring PvE you describe?

 

These are bad mmos made by indie studios, full of bugs and without polishment.

The mmos made by the bigger studios are mainly themepark (pve focused) because these type of mmo is more friendly to casual players and because they try to imitate WoW (security in first place).

 

 

 

"What we are aiming in ArcheAge is to let the players feel the true fun of MMORPG by forming a community like real life by interacting with other players, whether it be conflict or cooperation." (Jake Song)

  defector1968

Novice Member

Joined: 6/16/10
Posts: 400

Real Animal lovers are ONLY the vegetarians

10/05/12 2:31:33 PM#31
Originally posted by maccarthur2004
Originally posted by gordiflu

Well, then why on 99% of the games the pvp servers are the first ones to get empty and the last ones to get full?

I have the opposite impression.

PVE games are more than PVP games

MMOs have more PVE content than PVP

PVE servers are more than PVP ones

The 99% was a bit higher than the truth, but i can sure u that is at more than the 80%

  User Deleted
10/05/12 2:31:45 PM#32
You could argue the same for PvP you know? What's worse, its in the same battle ground, arena, etc  which is far smaller than a pve space. With PvE you can at least explore stuff.
  maccarthur2004

Hard Core Member

Joined: 10/02/12
Posts: 489

10/05/12 2:39:29 PM#33

If PVP or PVE is better, is a pure subjective question and personal preference.

Using the Bartle classification of mmo players (i strongly recommend the reading for who still didn't), we can infer the following:

 

Killers = Will love pvp

Socializers = Prefers pve, but will love more the mandatory social interaction of the sandboxes.

Explorers = Prefers pve, but only if the available content and map size are huge.

Achievers = Strongly prefers pve, only pvping if a good reward is at stake, but reluctanctilly, because pvp is harder than pve.

 

 

 

"What we are aiming in ArcheAge is to let the players feel the true fun of MMORPG by forming a community like real life by interacting with other players, whether it be conflict or cooperation." (Jake Song)

  stratasaurus

Apprentice Member

Joined: 12/18/11
Posts: 222

10/05/12 2:42:39 PM#34
That is why the new breed of MMO games that come out will be trying to incorporate more user created content that can be ever changing from day to day.  Only hope for MMOs of the future.
  maccarthur2004

Hard Core Member

Joined: 10/02/12
Posts: 489

10/05/12 2:44:27 PM#35
Originally posted by prpshrt
You could argue the same for PvP you know? What's worse, its in the same battle ground, arena, etc  which is far smaller than a pve space. With PvE you can at least explore stuff.

PVP restrained, controled, "organized" and restricted to instanced BGs is a themepark mmo thing. PVP in sandboxes are completely different in importance, motives and dinamic.

 

 

"What we are aiming in ArcheAge is to let the players feel the true fun of MMORPG by forming a community like real life by interacting with other players, whether it be conflict or cooperation." (Jake Song)

  Kenze

Novice Member

Joined: 4/24/07
Posts: 1235

10/05/12 2:45:22 PM#36
Originally posted by bishbosh2
Originally posted by gordiflu

Well, then why on 99% of the games the pvp servers are the first ones to get empty and the last ones to get full?

And whast you said about "learning the drill" on pve can also apply to pvp.

What we need is two things: First, more sandbox elements (and please, sandbox does not mean full loot open pvp); second, we need companies to finally start researching properly into proceduraly generated content.

i think sandbox PVE is interesting because of the way PVP interacts with PVE in sandbox game. farming fire lizards in volcano mountain for their scales to make fire lizard scale armor seems like a good idea until you realise there is people there waiting to kill you and steal all your scales. PVP is what makes the PVE fun and exciting.

thats only fun for the pvper. I'm sorry I dont want to be content for you. I risk getting ganked in real life every time i walk ut that door. Thats enough. I dont need or want it in my games.

Watch your thoughts; they become words.
Watch your words; they become actions.
Watch your actions; they become habits.
Watch your habits; they become character.
Watch your character; it becomes your destiny.
—Lao-Tze

  maccarthur2004

Hard Core Member

Joined: 10/02/12
Posts: 489

10/05/12 2:57:05 PM#37
Originally posted by defector1968
Originally posted by maccarthur2004
Originally posted by gordiflu

Well, then why on 99% of the games the pvp servers are the first ones to get empty and the last ones to get full?

I have the opposite impression.

PVE games are more than PVP games

Correct, because the reasons i spoke early (more casual friendliness and tring to imitate WoW). The pre-WoW and eastern mmos in your majority have more pvp.

 

MMOs have more PVE content than PVP

MMOs with pvp focus have the "content" emerged from the players interactions themselves.

PVE servers are more than PVP ones

I looked now in Tera Online and seens that pvp servers have more people. If i am not mistaken, the same occurs in wow.

"What we are aiming in ArcheAge is to let the players feel the true fun of MMORPG by forming a community like real life by interacting with other players, whether it be conflict or cooperation." (Jake Song)

  Bladestrom

Elite Member

Joined: 4/04/11
Posts: 3291

10/05/12 2:59:14 PM#38
Exactly +1 I'm not paying my sub/investing my personal rum to keep some moron happy, it's my game too. If I want great pvp il play eve or some open world pvp orientated game.

rpg/mmorg history: Dun Darach>Bloodwych>Bards Tale 1-3>Eye of the beholder > Might and Magic 2,3,5 > FFVII> Baldur's Gate 1, 2 > Planescape Torment >Morrowind > WOW (1000 hrs on main mage)> oblivion > LOTR (480 Hunter) > Rift (230 hours mage) > Guild Wars (1900hrs elementalist) Vanguard. > GW2(900 elementalist), Wildstar

Now playing GW2, AOW 3

  maccarthur2004

Hard Core Member

Joined: 10/02/12
Posts: 489

10/05/12 3:00:04 PM#39
Originally posted by Kenze
Originally posted by bishbosh2
Originally posted by gordiflu

Well, then why on 99% of the games the pvp servers are the first ones to get empty and the last ones to get full?

And whast you said about "learning the drill" on pve can also apply to pvp.

What we need is two things: First, more sandbox elements (and please, sandbox does not mean full loot open pvp); second, we need companies to finally start researching properly into proceduraly generated content.

i think sandbox PVE is interesting because of the way PVP interacts with PVE in sandbox game. farming fire lizards in volcano mountain for their scales to make fire lizard scale armor seems like a good idea until you realise there is people there waiting to kill you and steal all your scales. PVP is what makes the PVE fun and exciting.

thats only fun for the pvper. I'm sorry I dont want to be content for you. I risk getting ganked in real life every time i walk ut that door. Thats enough. I dont need or want it in my games.

The "ganking" is only a natural consequence of the bad guys to have brains. if the bad NPCs and monsters would had brains too, they would do tha same or worst. :D

"What we are aiming in ArcheAge is to let the players feel the true fun of MMORPG by forming a community like real life by interacting with other players, whether it be conflict or cooperation." (Jake Song)

  Bladestrom

Elite Member

Joined: 4/04/11
Posts: 3291

10/05/12 3:04:40 PM#40
I could go to a shop in real life and use my 'cunning' to sneak up on some stranger and kick their face in whole they at shopping. Or I could prove my skill by going 1 to 1 with someOne who wants to fight me man to man skill to skill. Spot the coward.

rpg/mmorg history: Dun Darach>Bloodwych>Bards Tale 1-3>Eye of the beholder > Might and Magic 2,3,5 > FFVII> Baldur's Gate 1, 2 > Planescape Torment >Morrowind > WOW (1000 hrs on main mage)> oblivion > LOTR (480 Hunter) > Rift (230 hours mage) > Guild Wars (1900hrs elementalist) Vanguard. > GW2(900 elementalist), Wildstar

Now playing GW2, AOW 3

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