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The Pub at MMORPG.COM  » Are developers powerless to truly stop bots?

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94 posts found
  fenistil

Novice Member

Joined: 9/22/11
Posts: 3016

10/04/12 1:17:32 PM#61
Originally posted by SnarlingWolf
Originally posted by fenistil

Think you either missed or ignored some possible solutions.

In example running aimbots or cheats on PS3 is very hard.   Most of times it will require jailbreak which is pain in butt to do and if you play online you end up get banned from PSN and online gaming sooner or later.

What's an effect?   There is very few cheaters on PS3 online fps than on same games on PC.

Sure they still are but diffrence is collosal.

I didn't miss or ignore that case because that is CHEATING not BOTTING. And no this isn't a semantics point, those are two very different topics.

 

Cheating is breaking the systems to get an advantage, aim hacks is a good example.

Botting is having the computer run your character for you.

 

Botting isn't common in the FPS genre to begin with because there isn't much to gain with it, especially in all of the non progression ones.

I will give you, even though it isn't really on topic, that cheating in FPS games has gone down from when the genre was young. I remember characters flying up into the air and teleporting around in Delta Force and the early instant aim hacks in Counter Strike (although it was fun to watch how many people say it was impossible to create a program that would auto head shot for so long before finally getting proof that it was possible). Even leagues like the ESEA still ban people for cheating on a regular basis and they have their own cheat software on top of the valve anti-cheat software. You just don't run into it in every single match your in which is further helped by the vote to kick player option. If your cheating is obvious you'll be kicked quickly making it not as worth it.

 

However, it isn't a reasonable comparison. Outside of cheating in a tournament, there is no financial gain in cheating in FPS gains. So if it is a pain to keep trying to get around the system to embarass people for a little bit, the amount that it is done goes down. With MMO botting there are significant gains to be made so the effort will always be there.

Think you miss the point. 

In order to run a bot on PS3 you would have to run a unauthorized code on PS3. Same as aimbots.  That's why I used it as example and it would be as hard.   (till last year it would be practically impossible because there were no jailbreak at all)

  Miner-2049er

Novice Member

Joined: 8/13/07
Posts: 436

10/04/12 1:19:04 PM#62

Even if companies cannot entirely stop botters they can certainly prevent a large number; here's some in-game methods that would help to cull the herd.

1)            GM BOT Hunters. (one every few servers)

Have a GM ready to warp to possible Bots when they are identified by other players. After watching for a while the GM will have the power to 'poke' the player with a pop-up message requiring an intelligent response. If the player fails to answer he will return to town and be labelled as a possible Bot. After 5 or so such events the player will be permanently banned.

Check out all active players in the same guild, and repeat the process. Possibly disbanding the guild if a good number of senior members are Botting.

Check out all players who have traded gold with the identified Bots and repeat.

Encourage players to identify Bots by giving them in-game bounty rewards whenever a BOT is located.

2)            Difficult Mobs

Actually have mobs that the players needs to watch in order to defeat them. This really is not that hard to do and designers should be ashamed that any mob can be killed by someone who is not even looking at the screen. Give the mobs a simple shield / defence stance that will block an attack that is initiated at that time. Some form of active targetting would also make it much more difficult to write a Bot if the mobs are moving laterally in combat.

3)            Roaming Mobs

Have more mobs in regions walking around that would kill a Bot. For example have a few 40+ mobs in a level 25 area. Why on Earth do we have to have every mob in a given area so restricted. I'm sure it is also more fun for the players if some of the mobs are dangerous.

4)            Open world PvP

One of the best things about the rifts in Aion was that it helped to clear out the Bots in any region. After a while the Botters found corners to hide but in a decent world PvP setting it would be difficult for Botters to flourish.

  Quizzical

Guide

Joined: 12/11/08
Posts: 13305

10/04/12 1:22:17 PM#63

The way to eliminate bots is to make them pointless.  This takes several forms, as the different types of botting need to be combatted in different ways.

One is gold sellers.  Here, you have to target the demand.  A game has to be designed from the start so that there isn't much point to buying gold from gold sellers.  It helps if your normal players don't have any real need to farm for gold.  It also helps if there are legitimate ways of buying gold, such as EVE's PLEX, TERA's Chronoscrolls, or the more complicated microtransactions systems of Puzzle Pirates and Spiral Knights.

The other target is ordinary players who will use bots to farm or grind.  Here, the basic principle is that if something takes a long time, but players hate it so much that they're willing to risk a ban to use bots to get around it, then it's not interesting gameplay.  At minimum, players shouldn't be forced to do it to access later content.  In some cases, it should be removed from the game entirely.

That's right:  I just said your game needs to be less grindy.  If it's so grindy that you chase away most of the players who are are unwilling or unable to bot the game, then you've got bigger problems than the inevitable prevalence of bots.  Sooner or later, players will figure out that if they dislike a game enough that they want a bot to play it so they don't have to, it's simpler to just quit the game entirely.

  SnarlingWolf

Novice Member

Joined: 6/23/09
Posts: 2728

10/04/12 1:23:31 PM#64
Originally posted by fenistil
Originally posted by SnarlingWolf
Originally posted by fenistil

Think you either missed or ignored some possible solutions.

In example running aimbots or cheats on PS3 is very hard.   Most of times it will require jailbreak which is pain in butt to do and if you play online you end up get banned from PSN and online gaming sooner or later.

What's an effect?   There is very few cheaters on PS3 online fps than on same games on PC.

Sure they still are but diffrence is collosal.

I didn't miss or ignore that case because that is CHEATING not BOTTING. And no this isn't a semantics point, those are two very different topics.

 

Cheating is breaking the systems to get an advantage, aim hacks is a good example.

Botting is having the computer run your character for you.

 

Botting isn't common in the FPS genre to begin with because there isn't much to gain with it, especially in all of the non progression ones.

I will give you, even though it isn't really on topic, that cheating in FPS games has gone down from when the genre was young. I remember characters flying up into the air and teleporting around in Delta Force and the early instant aim hacks in Counter Strike (although it was fun to watch how many people say it was impossible to create a program that would auto head shot for so long before finally getting proof that it was possible). Even leagues like the ESEA still ban people for cheating on a regular basis and they have their own cheat software on top of the valve anti-cheat software. You just don't run into it in every single match your in which is further helped by the vote to kick player option. If your cheating is obvious you'll be kicked quickly making it not as worth it.

 

However, it isn't a reasonable comparison. Outside of cheating in a tournament, there is no financial gain in cheating in FPS gains. So if it is a pain to keep trying to get around the system to embarass people for a little bit, the amount that it is done goes down. With MMO botting there are significant gains to be made so the effort will always be there.

Think you miss the point. 

In order to run a bot on PS3 you would have to run a unauthorized code on PS3. Same as aimbots.  That's why I used it as example and it would be as hard.   (till last year it would be practically impossible because there were no jailbreak at all)

Still have not missed the point.

 

Let me put it far simpler:

 

There is far less to gain from cheating in an FPS game vs botting in an MMO. Therefore less energy is put into bypassing the cheating.

 

Secondly you are now comparing a closed system of a console vs the open system on a PC which is far different circumstances.

 

But I get it, you truly believe that with just a little bit of effort companies could shut down 95% of botting in MMOs. They can't.

  User Deleted
10/04/12 1:36:19 PM#65

Okay, I joined in at the back end of this conversation, and I'm confused.

Is botting and goldselling directly linked to one another? And we are asking if it's possible to keep the bots under control?

  fenistil

Novice Member

Joined: 9/22/11
Posts: 3016

10/04/12 1:40:45 PM#66
Originally posted by SnarlingWolf
Originally posted by fenistil
Originally posted by SnarlingWolf
Originally posted by fenistil

Think you either missed or ignored some possible solutions.

In example running aimbots or cheats on PS3 is very hard.   Most of times it will require jailbreak which is pain in butt to do and if you play online you end up get banned from PSN and online gaming sooner or later.

What's an effect?   There is very few cheaters on PS3 online fps than on same games on PC.

Sure they still are but diffrence is collosal.

I didn't miss or ignore that case because that is CHEATING not BOTTING. And no this isn't a semantics point, those are two very different topics.

 

Cheating is breaking the systems to get an advantage, aim hacks is a good example.

Botting is having the computer run your character for you.

 

Botting isn't common in the FPS genre to begin with because there isn't much to gain with it, especially in all of the non progression ones.

I will give you, even though it isn't really on topic, that cheating in FPS games has gone down from when the genre was young. I remember characters flying up into the air and teleporting around in Delta Force and the early instant aim hacks in Counter Strike (although it was fun to watch how many people say it was impossible to create a program that would auto head shot for so long before finally getting proof that it was possible). Even leagues like the ESEA still ban people for cheating on a regular basis and they have their own cheat software on top of the valve anti-cheat software. You just don't run into it in every single match your in which is further helped by the vote to kick player option. If your cheating is obvious you'll be kicked quickly making it not as worth it.

 

However, it isn't a reasonable comparison. Outside of cheating in a tournament, there is no financial gain in cheating in FPS gains. So if it is a pain to keep trying to get around the system to embarass people for a little bit, the amount that it is done goes down. With MMO botting there are significant gains to be made so the effort will always be there.

Think you miss the point. 

In order to run a bot on PS3 you would have to run a unauthorized code on PS3. Same as aimbots.  That's why I used it as example and it would be as hard.   (till last year it would be practically impossible because there were no jailbreak at all)

Still have not missed the point.

 

Let me put it far simpler:

 

There is far less to gain from cheating in an FPS game vs botting in an MMO. Therefore less energy is put into bypassing the cheating.

 

Secondly you are now comparing a closed system of a console vs the open system on a PC which is far different circumstances.

 

But I get it, you truly believe that with just a little bit of effort companies could shut down 95% of botting in MMOs. They can't.

Don't put words in my mouth - I never said with little effort.  It would have to be collosal effort with massive changes in OS and server's tools.  No idea where you got 95% as well. I won't speculate.

 

There was MASSIVE energy put into bypassing console safety systems - because it was about running pirated games on it and after PS3 released - digital market for it did not exist and pirating market in PS2 was multi-million business especially in Asia.

  Disdena

Novice Member

Joined: 3/05/10
Posts: 1098

10/04/12 2:49:11 PM#67

You know, I would actually like to see someone take the Riot Games approach to detecting bots: heavy-duty data mining. Riot's done a lot to identify certain types of behavior in League of Legends, and for the most part they identify the worst troublemakers by just analyzing the data across all the millions of games that are constantly being played.

They found (and temp banned) the people who were abusing the reporting tool to bully other players with false reports; all they had to do was check out what group of people were filing the most reports against players who had never been punished, and then narrow it down based on other similar data. They found (and temp banned) the people who were abusing the queue system by trolling their teammates into leaving the game before it started; all they had to do was check out how which players had the most games fail to start due to a teammate queue dodging, and then narrow it down based on other similar data. The data generated by these players made them a dead giveaway because of how different they act compared to a normal player. They were significant statistical outliers, and that made them easy to spot.

Bots would be several orders of magnitude easier to spot. While troublesome players act in a way that's somewhat different than other players, bots act with a predictability that no human being could possibly match. Given enough data, it wouldn't take more than a few minutes to sort out the players from the bots with a shocking amount of accuracy.

Let me give you an example. When you're moving in an MMO, about how far do you run in a straight line before changing directions? After defeating and looting an enemy, about how long do you wait before moving again? How often do you jump? These numbers vary from player to player and from session to session. If there are 5000 accounts running bots, all of them should have virtually identical values for all of these because their movement is governed by the same set of instructions. On a bell curve showing the mean, median, or mode for all players for any one of these statistics, the 5000 bots would appear as a glaringly obvious spike.

Even if the bot makers knew that you were specifically watching for this, they would be hardpressed to come up with a way around it. Since all of the bots are moving according to the same instructions, they're always going to be the same and thus appear abnormal. Even putting in deliberate randomness (wait for a random period of 1-20 seconds after looking a mob before moving again) wouldn't help because such regular randomness still doesn't look human. As long as the heuristic you're using to sniff out these bots is smart enough, you'll always find them.

But the even better part is that bot makers DON'T know specifically what you're watching for. If they don't know you're tracking straight-line distance and post-looting behavior, they don't even know that's where they'd need to add randomness. And that's far from the only option available... that's just movement alone. Trying to nail harvest bots? Track how long a node was spawned before the player harvested it. Track how often the player visits a node that wasn't the closest to him. Track how full his inventory is before he leaves the zone or logs out, or track how long he remains in the zone once his inventory is full. Combat: How often does his HP go below 1/2? How about his MP/energy? How full is his HP when he engages an enemy? How often does he rest? How long did it take him to hit level 20, how many items did he vendor in that time, how many quests has he done, how much damage has he dealt? All of these things expose bots as outliers, and you can even have a detection system that flags or bans as soon as it notices a player with values equal to those of previously confirmed bots.

You can't ensure that no one can ever bot in your game, but you can make it so that it's impossible to have a bot empire or a popular bot program. Heuristically identify behavior that doesn't match how human beings are playing your game.

  Quizzical

Guide

Joined: 12/11/08
Posts: 13305

10/04/12 3:19:44 PM#68
Originally posted by Disdena

Let me give you an example. When you're moving in an MMO, about how far do you run in a straight line before changing directions? After defeating and looting an enemy, about how long do you wait before moving again? How often do you jump? These numbers vary from player to player and from session to session. If there are 5000 accounts running bots, all of them should have virtually identical values for all of these because their movement is governed by the same set of instructions. On a bell curve showing the mean, median, or mode for all players for any one of these statistics, the 5000 bots would appear as a glaringly obvious spike.

Even if the bot makers knew that you were specifically watching for this, they would be hardpressed to come up with a way around it. Since all of the bots are moving according to the same instructions, they're always going to be the same and thus appear abnormal. Even putting in deliberate randomness (wait for a random period of 1-20 seconds after looking a mob before moving again) wouldn't help because such regular randomness still doesn't look human. As long as the heuristic you're using to sniff out these bots is smart enough, you'll always find them.

But the even better part is that bot makers DON'T know specifically what you're watching for. If they don't know you're tracking straight-line distance and post-looting behavior, they don't even know that's where they'd need to add randomness. And that's far from the only option available... that's just movement alone. Trying to nail harvest bots? Track how long a node was spawned before the player harvested it. Track how often the player visits a node that wasn't the closest to him. Track how full his inventory is before he leaves the zone or logs out, or track how long he remains in the zone once his inventory is full. Combat: How often does his HP go below 1/2? How about his MP/energy? How full is his HP when he engages an enemy? How often does he rest? How long did it take him to hit level 20, how many items did he vendor in that time, how many quests has he done, how much damage has he dealt? All of these things expose bots as outliers, and you can even have a detection system that flags or bans as soon as it notices a player with values equal to those of previously confirmed bots.

You can't ensure that no one can ever bot in your game, but you can make it so that it's impossible to have a bot empire or a popular bot program. Heuristically identify behavior that doesn't match how human beings are playing your game.

There are some problems with that.  One is that if the bot-makers know what stats you're looking for, it's pretty easy to show up as not a bot on those stats.  Suppose that you're looking for straight line running distance.  Throwing some randomness into that is completely trivial.  Suppose that you look for a given distribution of straight line running distance.  It's easy to dodge that, as well:  give the randomness a component that varies by session.  And then another component that varies by bot ID.

For example, the first time a bot is initalized, it could roll a random number and store that number forever.  (I.e., check to see if there's a saved random number, and if not, then roll one and save it in a file where it will be found in the future.)  Each time the bot program is loaded, it rolls a random number and then stores that one for the duration of the session, but a new random number the next time the program is loaded.  And then each time the character has to move, it rolls a third random number.  And then any time the bot has to move, the distance it moves is the "ideal" distance (what it would be with no randomness) plus the sum of the three random numbers.

Compared to the difficultly of making a working bot program in the first place, that mild bit of randomness would be completely trivial to program.  The data analytics that you'd need to detect that bot from straight-line running distance would be prohibitively expensive.  Meanwhile, it's not only trivial to code, but you could easily do the same thing for anything else that you think the server might possibly check for bot detection.

Game companies might hope to get some edge from the bots not knowing what they're going to check.  But a bot programmer can just throw a bit of randomness onto everything.  There doesn't have to be a data spike anywhere for what bots do.  The only bots that you'd catch are the ones whose programmers are stupid.  But catching and banning some bot programs and not others isn't enough.  If it becomes widely known that this bot program will get you banned and that one won't, then guess which one the botters will use.

  stratasaurus

Apprentice Member

Joined: 12/18/11
Posts: 222

10/04/12 3:38:47 PM#69
As annoying as bots are, and I don't support them nor do i buy gold or anything else, I really cannot say in any MMO I have ever played I really felt bots had a siginificant impact on my playing of the game.  I would love to see bots gone but if it had to come down to me not being able to run say a music program in the background or not being able to switch over to look something up online without completely exiting the game...I'd rather just live with and ignore the bots.
  Iselin

The Listener

Joined: 3/04/08
Posts: 3778

10/04/12 3:42:15 PM#70
Originally posted by Enigmatus

Okay, I joined in at the back end of this conversation, and I'm confused.

Is botting and goldselling directly linked to one another? And we are asking if it's possible to keep the bots under control?

Gold farmers (not necessarily the same as "seller" which is typically a broker or middle man) and power-leveling services are by far the majority of botters. There are also individuals with the skill to write their own scripts (or those who obtain those keyboard simulation scripts written by someone else) for their own purposes be it ammassing wealth or grinding levels.

 

But yeah, when people talk about botting they're usually talking about gold farmer bots.

  User Deleted
10/04/12 3:44:49 PM#71

I don't like bots as much as you do in fact i hate gold farmers because of their constant need to steal peoples accounts (which happened to me on two occassions) but i think they really have more important things to work on right now. They put a bandaid on farming for loot and for stealing accounts. I think they are focused on removing those last few bugs before busting those botters and gold farmers right out of the game forever.

Interesting how they can have a system of being able to buy gold and yet farmers are still there. Weird.

I think they'll implement the code to prevent teleportation hacks like blizz did when they added teleportations, and I think they'll improve the DR to prevent gold farmers from going nuts in the dungeons for gold.

DR definitely needs an overhaul starting with showing as a debuff with a timer so that real players can see how long it will be. 

It's barely been a month, we need to just be patient.

  stratasaurus

Apprentice Member

Joined: 12/18/11
Posts: 222

10/04/12 3:53:05 PM#72

This isn't really on topic but has to do with bot control and was something I was thinking about way back during I believe BC on Wow.  At that time if I remember correctly Wow come out with a fairly aggressive attack on both sellers and buyers of gold.  I even knew a guy that got his account banned for buying gold from a site.  I thought it would be interesting if pepole used that against their enemies.  Say for example somebody camps you over and over again and you get pissed, just hop online and buy a fairly large amount of gold and have it sent to their character, they get banned.  Some games like GW2 you wouldn't really see this since you can't tell who you are fighting against in WvW and there really is no "camping" in pvp.

 

Not that I would ever do this I just often wondering what would stop someone with less morals and some free money from taking this approach.  Sometimes being too strict in your fight against bots/gold sellers/gold buyers can open up exploits for your faithful playerbase.

  stratasaurus

Apprentice Member

Joined: 12/18/11
Posts: 222

10/04/12 3:55:31 PM#73
Originally posted by itgrowls

I don't like bots as much as you do in fact i hate gold farmers because of their constant need to steal peoples accounts (which happened to me on two occassions) but i think they really have more important things to work on right now. They put a bandaid on farming for loot and for stealing accounts. I think they are focused on removing those last few bugs before busting those botters and gold farmers right out of the game forever.

Interesting how they can have a system of being able to buy gold and yet farmers are still there. Weird.

I think they'll implement the code to prevent teleportation hacks like blizz did when they added teleportations, and I think they'll improve the DR to prevent gold farmers from going nuts in the dungeons for gold.

DR definitely needs an overhaul starting with showing as a debuff with a timer so that real players can see how long it will be. 

It's barely been a month, we need to just be patient.

You do realize this is a general thread about bots in all MMORPGs and not a GW2 thread right.

  Quizzical

Guide

Joined: 12/11/08
Posts: 13305

10/04/12 3:58:19 PM#74
Originally posted by itgrowls

I think they'll implement the code to prevent teleportation hacks like blizz did when they added teleportations, and I think they'll improve the DR to prevent gold farmers from going nuts in the dungeons for gold.

The mysterious thing is why code to prevent teleportation hacks wasn't in place years ago.  They should have known the day they decided that they would make Guild Wars 2 in the first place that this was nearly guaranteed to be a problem if there wasn't server-side code to catch and stop it.  That there wouldn't be server-side code in place by time the game had its first playable demo at a trade show is mystifying.

  User Deleted
10/04/12 5:38:22 PM#75
  FrodoFragins

Hard Core Member

Joined: 4/29/10
Posts: 2766

 
OP  10/05/12 9:40:26 AM#76
Originally posted by Enigmatus

Okay, I joined in at the back end of this conversation, and I'm confused.

Is botting and goldselling directly linked to one another? And we are asking if it's possible to keep the bots under control?

Yes and no.

 

Yes bots grind away 24/7 finding items and gold.  Some bot runners sell their gold to goldsellers rather than sell directly themselves.  A lot of gold is stolen from hacked accounts as well which is a separate issue.  Although many hacked accounts then have bots running them until the account is recovered.

 

And yes, the gist of the question was can they be under control.  Not whether they can be eliminated.

 

It just seems that most devs now resort to reporting, rather than analyzing player behavior and/or detecting bots through a separate program like Warden.

 

 

  rungard

Novice Member

Joined: 7/25/03
Posts: 1037

The Sandbox Foundation does not exist!

10/05/12 10:18:23 AM#77

developers who make pve games only pretty much are.

 

  midmagic

Apprentice Member

Joined: 8/10/09
Posts: 617

10/05/12 10:59:33 AM#78
Originally posted by FrodoFragins

My hatred of bots began in the ARPG genre with Diablo 2.  They were extremely primitive and spurred Blizzard to create Warden for checking running programs that were looking at D2 data in memory.  For whatever reason, Warden isn't always running and the bot makers quickly learned to simply shut off the bot as soon as Warden was activated.  Those are just the public bots.  Rumors of private bots and dupe hacks that Warden couldn't detect have been around for a long time.

Bots cannot be eliminated. Program memory is readable and leads to information exposure cheats and easy bot generation. The Warden was the wrong move to tackle this problem. An attacker can hide everything about the bot and its activities from Warden. It is just a silly arms race. The bot builder hides. The Warden devs build detection. The bot builder hides again. The Warden devs build new detections. It is an endless game of cat and mouse.

It really isn't a problem with program memory being readable. Readable program memory simply makes the task easier. A bot can be built to require two computers (or one computer running two VMs if the Warden is not pushed down into VMM or just one computer if the Warden is not in the OS). One computer runs the game client. The other computer runs the bot. The bot computer supplies mouse and keyboard input to the game computer and reads the game computer screen using a camera. It costs slightly more to do it this way. Plus, there is nothing to detect aside from the behavior of the bot which can be made human like enough that detection is too computationally intensive (via MachineLearning/AI) for the game servers.

Essentially a game must be built with bots in mind (since they cannot be eliminated) and the incentives for building bots must be reduced enough that few, if any, are bothered to build them which is not trivial (but does get a easier over time due to developing bot code bases).

 

Note: read Warden as "detection software" most of the time...

 

Forever looking for employment. Life is rather dull without it.

  Heinz130

Novice Member

Joined: 3/13/12
Posts: 227

War...war never change

10/05/12 11:49:42 AM#79

Lets the bots farm and the n00bs buy from em,whatever

 

The 2 bigest experience with bots i had was in WoW and EU

In WoW that was rly fun to kill the same bot over and over at the same time i farmed exactly what he was programed to farm,of course he aways won since im not a bot and at some point i have to logoff

In EU that was a little more serious issue,since the PADs earned in game culd be directed changed to USD real money,one more reason to consider open world pvp,the game is a lootable pvp,what wuld be great to loot real money from bots XD

Most part,bots make the game prices run lower since there will be a biggest offer of products,what directly benefits me.

WoW 4ys,EVE 4ys,EU 4ys
FH1942 best tanker for 4years
Playing WWII OL for some years untill now
many other for some months

  User Deleted
10/06/12 4:15:04 AM#80
Originally posted by SnarlingWolf
Originally posted by FrodoFragins

My hatred of bots began in the ARPG genre with Diablo 2.  They were extremely primitive and spurred Blizzard to create Warden for checking running programs that were looking at D2 data in memory.  For whatever reason, Warden isn't always running and the bot makers quickly learned to simply shut off the bot as soon as Warden was activated.  Those are just the public bots.  Rumors of private bots and dupe hacks that Warden couldn't detect have been around for a long time.

 

Today we have an epidemic of bots in both GW2 and D3.  Reporting botters is a simplistic whack a mole strategy that may make the reporter feel good, if those bots disappear, but only hit the tip of the iceberg.  Teleport hacks should be detectable on the server side and ANET really messed up in not looking for them on the server side.

 

Is the main issue the fact that everything in program memory is readable by other programs?  Would hardware or OS changes designed to protect memory from being accessed by other programs get rid of bots for a while?  I say for a while, because in certain games such as ARPGs, bots could be written to recognize patterns on display buffers and not require access to memory at all.

 

 

How is the U.S. war on drugs working out?

 

If there are enough customers willing to pay good money for the gold (or services) provided by the botters then no amount of effort will ever fully get rid of them.

 

The real solution has always been for people to stop buying gold/items/services from the botters. Since some people don't care what happens to any game and would rather get ahead right then, this will never ever happen. So botting will always exist and will ruin it for the rest of us.

I'd love love to hear the actual difference between a player who buys gold from a chinese farmer and a player who farms gold for days with his guild. Both have people doing work for them, cooperating, and taking from an endless stream of meaningless gold.

You do realize that end-game players do the same farming techniques that chinese farmers do...right? Get the most gold, in the shortest time possible, and grind that process over and over.

 

You will never convince me that a real life currency somehow magically transforms EVERYTHING, when it's entirely irrelevant of that game. There is no difference between grinding it yourself, and having someone else do it for you for real life currency. Absolutely no difference.

 

A player buying gold ruins the game no less than a player farming for gold. It is irrelevant how that gold is obtained. What ruins the game is the fact gold can be farmed, higher levels readily have access to more of it, and if the gold doesnt provide an advantage in PvP, it doesn't ruin anyone else's game.

Blame the developers, not the Chinese.

 

If it's a PvP game, and the gold lets one player have an advantage over the other? Well... first off...

1) A new player buying gold will still have less of an advantage than a max-level farming gold, as the latter has the capacity to get more of an advantage, for longer, on average. (The new player wont spend a fortune on gold, they will spend only some money. This is on average, not on addicts/rich players).

2) It's not the fault of the person who buys gold, it's the fault of the game for being a Pay to Win game. It's irrelevant if you have to PAY TO WIN by giving USD to a company, or by getting in-game Gold. Either way is Pay to Win.

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