Originally posted by Aelious

I agree 100% that a first person view can be more immersive and should be an option in an MMORPG.  Exclusively? ehhh, no because there are times that a third person view is nice to have and a lot of people like third person.  I will say that the first person view should be a realistic first person view that bobs and sways like real life.  Maybe that would be an option too for those with motion sickness.

 

It's hard for me personally because other than a better view of the field, third person also allows you to appreciate the gear you've attained and to be honest there's a small part of me that is vain like that.  As I'm going on nine years of MMO gaming though if done right I'd like to really try the first person perspective.  I may try it on EQ2 tonight especially since the NPCs talk to you mouths all a flappin'.

The reason having it as an option does nothing is because of the advantages of third person.

I play in third person and zoom it out as far as it will go, the reason is it gives me more view of what is coming up from behind and beside me giving me an actual advantage in the game.

It also allows you to see over objects, further in front etc. You can see that a boss is up on top of the hill you're climbing even though you'd never see him in first person.

Having a game be only first person means no one can get the advantage of going third person.

Originally posted by strangewizard

For such a game to work, I'd also have collision with mobs and players, to prevent walking through them (and adding nudging to prevent people from blocking areas, yes there's no perfect solution to it, but nudging would work decently enough).

Just do what Ryzom did.

They had player collision, but if you continued to push against another player blocking your way you would 'push past' themafter a brief moment. Didn't need to move the other player, but that enabled a fair enough balance between having decent collicion and interaction in combat as players and NPCs will stil bounce off one another, but it prevents players from trolling one another with the collision.

EDIT: As for the topic of first person. I would cite Firefall. They have first and third person and I tend to play the game largely in first.

The problem with first person in traditional MMOs is they have no support, no visual input or feedback on what your character is doing and the UI is not designed to support it.

Newer MMOs would have to be designed with more minimalist UI that can get the point across clearly on the most necessary basic information about your character as well as give enough of your player model to show exactly what you are doing as far as abilities and combat/interaction is involved.

I can accept too that when there is a third person view, people will tend to opt for it because of increased field of view. Like I mentioned with Firefall however, I can sacrifice that field of view when it fits the situation better. Perhaps it's jsut me, I am not someone that's obsessive-compulsive about having the absolute best things for any given situation. I prefer a generalist balance to overcome.

You have to more or less provide an equal degree of value to first and third person. For the average player that's a bit hard to do as they will just want what's easiest to serve them.

I guess to clarify upon my previous post, a few solutions would be these.

First and foremost is short range radar essentially. If an enemy or ally is within a certain distance they will tend to have an icon over their head unless you are properly ignorant of their presence.

Perhaps instead of a static icon it could be a visual/audio ping noting something is there.

Or maybe one can outright mask things that are not in line of sight to the character. They just exist ad fussy spots until your character can properly see them.

Along that same line there's the Splinter Cell concept. When you see an enemy in first or third, it's still based on line of sight. When you lose sight ofn an enemy it may track it briefly, but unless you can hear it or have an alternate means to track, it will render only it's last known location until it enters line of sight again.

I'm personally disfavorable towards anything that intentionally drtracts from one system, likt the line of sight limitations, to favor balance, but I figured I would list them any ways. I'm sure there's other means one could strike a blannce too these are just a few examples. :p

EDIT: I would also cite Mount & Blade for a game with first and third person, but is largely played in first.

Originally posted by SnarlingWolf

Originally posted by Aelious

I agree 100% that a first person view can be more immersive and should be an option in an MMORPG.  Exclusively? ehhh, no because there are times that a third person view is nice to have and a lot of people like third person.  I will say that the first person view should be a realistic first person view that bobs and sways like real life.  Maybe that would be an option too for those with motion sickness.

 

It's hard for me personally because other than a better view of the field, third person also allows you to appreciate the gear you've attained and to be honest there's a small part of me that is vain like that.  As I'm going on nine years of MMO gaming though if done right I'd like to really try the first person perspective.  I may try it on EQ2 tonight especially since the NPCs talk to you mouths all a flappin'.

The reason having it as an option does nothing is because of the advantages of third person.

 

I play in third person and zoom it out as far as it will go, the reason is it gives me more view of what is coming up from behind and beside me giving me an actual advantage in the game.

 

It also allows you to see over objects, further in front etc. You can see that a boss is up on top of the hill you're climbing even though you'd never see him in first person.

 

Having a game be only first person means no one can get the advantage of going third person.

If you're talking about PvP then you're right about an unfair advantage and I wouldn't like the idea of a first person locked MMO.  Mortal Online already does this though the quality doesn't seem to be there.  As stated in my quote for me it would be about immersion.  Simple as that and the added restrictions that come along with the view may just make it more of a challenge which I wouldn't be opposed to.

Originally posted by strangewizard

Most MMORPGs are designed in third person or a tactical birds eye view. What about a first person MMORPG? Personally, I never understood why they are not done in first person. First person games are the most immersive, and MMORPGs are the most immersive genre, so naturally, a first-person MMORPG would be very immersive, indeed.

What would you think of a MMORPG designed this way? It would show your character's weapons like a first person game, and likely also have real-time combat like an FPS, however, it would still be about leveling up, exploring, doing quests, etc, like an RPG

Actually .. I do not find nothing "immersive" in 1st person. Not to mention nearly impossible to play. In real gameplay, you can have 10 enemies around or in all directions ... how would you control situation in 1st person I do not have slightest idea. Ok, have seen cooperative simple shooters .. but that is far from raid or real multiplayer questing. 

But, hey, I have no problem if some company would like to make such game. I actually think Planetside 2 will be 1st person only? Not sure. Anyway ... have no problem with such games, only company can not count on my money under any circumstances.

Originally posted by daltanious

Actually .. I do not find nothing "immersive" in 1st person. Not to mention nearly impossible to play. In real gameplay, you can have 10 enemies around or in all directions ... how would you control situation in 1st person I do not have slightest idea. Ok, have seen cooperative simple shooters .. but that is far from raid or real multiplayer questing. 

But, hey, I have no problem if some company would like to make such game. I actually think Planetside 2 will be 1st person only? Not sure. Anyway ... have no problem with such games, only company can not count on my money under any circumstances.

Crowd control, ever play Mount & Blade?

Originally posted by daltanious

Originally posted by strangewizard

Most MMORPGs are designed in third person or a tactical birds eye view. What about a first person MMORPG? Personally, I never understood why they are not done in first person. First person games are the most immersive, and MMORPGs are the most immersive genre, so naturally, a first-person MMORPG would be very immersive, indeed.

What would you think of a MMORPG designed this way? It would show your character's weapons like a first person game, and likely also have real-time combat like an FPS, however, it would still be about leveling up, exploring, doing quests, etc, like an RPG

Actually .. I do not find nothing "immersive" in 1st person. Not to mention nearly impossible to play. In real gameplay, you can have 10 enemies around or in all directions ... how would you control situation in 1st person I do not have slightest idea. Ok, have seen cooperative simple shooters .. but that is far from raid or real multiplayer questing. 

But, hey, I have no problem if some company would like to make such game. I actually think Planetside 2 will be 1st person only? Not sure. Anyway ... have no problem with such games, only company can not count on my money under any circumstances.

The same way you would do it IRL if you were up against multiple foes. Move & look around, be aware of where people are in relation to you and eachother and what theyre doing instead of just standing still facing one direction expecting them to only come at you from the front.

If you were walking along and 2 guys jumped out to mug you, 1 in front 1 behind, would you just stand there looking at 1 of them and completely ignore the guy coming up behind you? No, you would likely try to position yourself to get both of them in your field of view or at the very least look back and forth repeatedly to prepare to protect yourself against the incoming attack.

Just look at Darkfall as an example. You NEVER want to get hit from behind. So if a couple of players try to jump you, you move around as best you can to try and keep both of them in front of you. Especially if youre using a bow or spells since theyre in 1st person, but even the melee in DF has a limited FoV so it is still much better to keep them in front when possible.

First person could work. As long as it makes sense with the combat. Controls will be very important though. If wasd movement is required with mouselook, then a lot of MMO players won't be able to play this. Especially if combat is also twitchbased. Personally though, I would really like it.

And you need a way to look at the front of your toon, so that there is still a reason to get good looking gear.

I resent the suggestion that everyone that prefers 3rd person wants to look round corners and are some sort of bad players.

I started gaming playing games that were in 3rd person view that were very tactical and took real skill just as much as an FPS would.

I personally feel more immersed in 3rd person, in most games in first person all I can see is my hands floating in front of me (why?) and I have no legs. In real life I can see my nose, my torso, my shoulders, my legs, my feet, my clothes, I have peripheral vision and surround sound hearing! Playing in FPS games I feel like a floating gun and hands and totally disconnected from everything. Skyrim was OK at first person view but mostly because there 3rd person view was so clunky and horrible first person was the only way to play it.

Until stuff like fully directional sounds, 3 monitor set ups and Track IR headgear becomes the complete norm I would much perfer to stick with 3rd person.

I dont care about theorycraft,i just dont like FP has mmorpg

Otherwise,companys can make a nice mix of both 1st 3rd pw,i loved the way they did on FireFall,i stoped to play it just becouse the bunny-jumps fest chaotic pvp

Originally posted by SlickShoes

I resent the suggestion that everyone that prefers 3rd person wants to look round corners and are some sort of bad players.

I started gaming playing games that were in 3rd person view that were very tactical and took real skill just as much as an FPS would.

I personally feel more immersed in 3rd person, in most games in first person all I can see is my hands floating in front of me (why?) and I have no legs. In real life I can see my nose, my torso, my shoulders, my legs, my feet, my clothes, I have peripheral vision and surround sound hearing! Playing in FPS games I feel like a floating gun and hands and totally disconnected from everything. Skyrim was OK at first person view but mostly because there 3rd person view was so clunky and horrible first person was the only way to play it.

Until stuff like fully directional sounds, 3 monitor set ups and Track IR headgear becomes the complete norm I would much perfer to stick with 3rd person.

Forgot also to ad this to my post. :-) Is very NON immersive seeing only my fists or tip of a staff. Tried on rare ocasions, never liked it. Even when racing I usually prefer view from above car.

As I said would have nothing against if some company actually create some 1st person mmo. Sure they would get enough clients, but I for sure would not be among them. Actually my FIRST checkup when buying any game (in past as now) is if its in 3rd. If it is 1st, red alert is automatically called. :-)

I pretty much ALWAYS play in 1st person view. If an MMO doesn't support it as an option, it generaly gets crossed off my list. I'm an exception as far as MMO players though.

I believe most people prefer 3rd person because it provides a better field of veiw for melee combat. 1st person makes it more difficult (though probably more realistic) for them to maintain situational awareness of what's going on around them.

Note that you could partialy mitigate by creating keys that gave a player a quick .. "head turn" ...to see what was going on to thier right and left flanks without actualy changing the facing of thier characters.

Originally posted by SlickShoes

I resent the suggestion that everyone that prefers 3rd person wants to look round corners and are some sort of bad players.

I started gaming playing games that were in 3rd person view that were very tactical and took real skill just as much as an FPS would.

I personally feel more immersed in 3rd person, in most games in first person all I can see is my hands floating in front of me (why?) and I have no legs. In real life I can see my nose, my torso, my shoulders, my legs, my feet, my clothes, I have peripheral vision and surround sound hearing! Playing in FPS games I feel like a floating gun and hands and totally disconnected from everything. Skyrim was OK at first person view but mostly because there 3rd person view was so clunky and horrible first person was the only way to play it.

Until stuff like fully directional sounds, 3 monitor set ups and Track IR headgear becomes the complete norm I would much perfer to stick with 3rd person.

Yes that's the only reason 1st person was viable in eq1. The third person was so clunky and hard to use that it wasn't worth it. Lots of people play MMOs for that carrot and stick to make their character better, wether its in stats or appearance (how cash shops make money). I hated that I could never see my character in eq1 unless I wanted to play in it's awful 3rd person version. The immersion isn't really any more in 1st than third, and it makes it a lot harder to design detailed bosses, with interesting abilities. I'd rather not go back to 1st person if I could ever have that option tbh.

Originally posted by SlickShoes

I resent the suggestion that everyone that prefers 3rd person wants to look round corners and are some sort of bad players.

I started gaming playing games that were in 3rd person view that were very tactical and took real skill just as much as an FPS would.

I personally feel more immersed in 3rd person, in most games in first person all I can see is my hands floating in front of me (why?) and I have no legs. In real life I can see my nose, my torso, my shoulders, my legs, my feet, my clothes, I have peripheral vision and surround sound hearing! Playing in FPS games I feel like a floating gun and hands and totally disconnected from everything. Skyrim was OK at first person view but mostly because there 3rd person view was so clunky and horrible first person was the only way to play it.

Until stuff like fully directional sounds, 3 monitor set ups and Track IR headgear becomes the complete norm I would much perfer to stick with 3rd person.

So it's more immersive to stare at your own back?

Aside from that I didn't think people were slamming third person. most of it has been that third person generally pertforms better for the average player. You can take that as an insult if you want, but it's not. It's fust a fact.

Larger field of view, can see things outside of one's natural field of view (like over hills, behind walls, your own back), and unless the game has a proper setup for first person cameras, more visual input on player actions.

It's just an inherent sapect of third person that it will make the game easier simply by merit of convenience. No meaning to how a game plays. Using third person camera 'tactically' needs a bit of context.

Aside from that, and aside from my first question which was primarily in jest. I'll ask the same thing I asked another. Have you ever played Mount & Blade?

Originally posted by Deivos

Originally posted by SlickShoes

I resent the suggestion that everyone that prefers 3rd person wants to look round corners and are some sort of bad players.

I started gaming playing games that were in 3rd person view that were very tactical and took real skill just as much as an FPS would.

I personally feel more immersed in 3rd person, in most games in first person all I can see is my hands floating in front of me (why?) and I have no legs. In real life I can see my nose, my torso, my shoulders, my legs, my feet, my clothes, I have peripheral vision and surround sound hearing! Playing in FPS games I feel like a floating gun and hands and totally disconnected from everything. Skyrim was OK at first person view but mostly because there 3rd person view was so clunky and horrible first person was the only way to play it.

Until stuff like fully directional sounds, 3 monitor set ups and Track IR headgear becomes the complete norm I would much perfer to stick with 3rd person.

So it's more immersive to stare at your own back?

 Sure, at least I see how I look, armor i wear, weapons I carry, ... 

Aside from that I didn't think people were slamming third person. most of it has been that third person generally pertforms better for the average player. You can take that as an insult if you want, but it's not. It's fust a fact.

1st person is much easyier for programmers and this is main reason have been mainly games in this perspective.  

Larger field of view, can see things outside of one's natural field of view (like over hills, behind walls, your own back), and unless the game has a proper setup for first person cameras, more visual input on player actions.

So is completely natural to you  watching in 1st person to see only tips of hands or point of staff? Looking this moment around in room through my eyes and see much much more. Not 3rd, do not see my shoulders, but see my torso and all pretty wide look around. Well ... If I put (pretty big, oversized, with lateral material non transparent) scuba diving mask or astronaut scafander then sure I'm pretty close to 1st person view.

.......

Have you ever played Mount & Blade?

Nope, should have? :-)