Originally posted by bunnyhopper

Originally posted by SlyLoK

Originally posted by xpiher
A PvE server would be pointless. Name one reason DFO would be fun to play PvE only? The entire core of the game is built around PvP. You would have to develope a completely different game to make PvE only viable. 

 I would try the game if it had a PvE server and I am probably not the only one..

UO is still going because of Trammel after all.

In spite of Trammel you mean.

Maybe.. Trammel was implemented in what..2000 or 2001? UO still went on pretty strong until around 2004 I think so it didnt have a negative impact from what I remember. It was more or less games like EQ , DAoC and then WoW that just chipped away at it along with being a 2D game among 3D games.

My thought still stands that with some sort of consentual pvp server / setup DF would probably pick up many players. It doesnt even have to be a straight PvE server but one with guild / alliance wars and seiges. Would keep the ganking to a minimum but offer plenty of PvP to those that want it.. Meh. Dont care one way or the other.

Originally posted by bunnyhopper

Originally posted by SlyLoK

Originally posted by xpiher
A PvE server would be pointless. Name one reason DFO would be fun to play PvE only? The entire core of the game is built around PvP. You would have to develope a completely different game to make PvE only viable. 

 I would try the game if it had a PvE server and I am probably not the only one..

UO is still going because of Trammel after all.

In spite of Trammel you mean.

No. Having been in UO pre Trammel, the ganking and griefing was getting way out of hand.  Lots of people leaving, really forced their hand.  Absent Trammel, I doubt UO would still be in operation.  The modern western audience has changed. The majority will not tolerate a game that allows (let alone encourages) ganking and griefing.  That in and of itself, limits such a game to a niche market.

Originally posted by Wraithone

Originally posted by bunnyhopper

Originally posted by SlyLoK

Originally posted by xpiher
 

In spite of Trammel you mean.

No. Having been in UO pre Trammel, the ganking and griefing was getting way out of hand.  Lots of people leaving, really forced their hand.  Absent Trammel, I doubt UO would still be in operation.  The modern western audience has changed. The majority will not tolerate a game that allows (let alone encourages) ganking and griefing.  That in and of itself, limits such a game to a niche market.

If you place any credence in online data, then the actual numbers were increasing throughout the pre Tram era, at a steady rate. There is no evidence (outside of anecdotal that is) to presume that the game would have died off had Tram not happened. Moreoever, there were other steps to take to reduce rampant pking, other than completely splitting the community. Tram was akin to using a sledge hammer to crack a nut.

You will also note that regardless as to whether Tram had occured or not, the game would have been considered "niche" for many, many a year now anyway. Unless we are saying 2D isometric sandboxes are de rigueur in the mmo world?

I am not suggesting that the game wouldn't have had to be "altered" over time, or that ffa pvp would ever be mainstream. Nor am I suggesting that you never saw people leave. But to suggest that without Tram, UO would have died off years ago is pure conjecture.

Originally posted by bunnyhopper

Originally posted by Wraithone

Originally posted by bunnyhopper

Originally posted by SlyLoK

Originally posted by xpiher
 

In spite of Trammel you mean.

No. Having been in UO pre Trammel, the ganking and griefing was getting way out of hand.  Lots of people leaving, really forced their hand.  Absent Trammel, I doubt UO would still be in operation.  The modern western audience has changed. The majority will not tolerate a game that allows (let alone encourages) ganking and griefing.  That in and of itself, limits such a game to a niche market.

If you place any credence in online data, then the actual numbers were increasing throughout the pre Tram era, at a steady rate. There is no evidence (outside of anecdotal that is) to presume that the game would have died off had Tram not happened. Moreoever, there were other steps to take to reduce rampant pking, other than completely splitting the community. Tram was akin to using a sledge hammer to crack a nut.

 

You will also note that regardless as to whether Tram had occured or not, the game would have been considered "niche" for many, many a year now anyway. Unless we are saying 2D isometric sandboxes are de rigueur in the mmo world?

 

I am not suggesting that the game wouldn't have had to be "altered" over time, or that ffa pvp would ever be mainstream. Nor am I suggesting that you never saw people leave. But to suggest that without Tram, UO would have died off years ago is pure conjecture.

You make some good points.  I agree that both positions are only speculation at this late date, and that I have an inherent bias, that may be coloring my analysis.   Looking back on my experiences, I had a number of contacts/friends that left because of it. I've also heard the same from others. But attempting to over generalize from that, would indeed be a mistake. 

Originally posted by googie23

its a great way to bring alot of new players into the darkfall world and when they are ready they can come to the PvP server and start a new character. never make an option to transfer from PvE to PvP.

I don't believe there needs to be a PvE server.  I do believe they will add wider range of safe spots... as a matter of fact I know they will. ;)

Originally posted by ICEBLUE

I would love to see a PVE server.. Not sure why so many are addamently against it, since there would most likely be an option for players to move over to PVP if they wanted to.

Is it because the PVP community fears most will jump at the chance to go PVE is the option was open reducing the population on the PVP servers, or is ti because they need those noobs to hunt down to satsify something they get by doing so?

I enjoyed the world in DF1, liked to explore fight the PVE monsters etc, but got tired of bunny hoping gankers who preyed on the noobs, or those of us less thitchy fingured that would get killed over and over again.

I heard the "go play another game" rant but the real fact is, if there was a PVE server, more players would jump in and and many would eventually end up trying the PVP side as well, thus increasing the population which is the biggest issue currently and could quickly become the new big issue as yet again many wil try the game if stuck in PVP only, play a month or 2 and then leave.

My perosnal thoughts as a player of MMO's since way back with the Isle of Kesma on Compuserve ;)

 

My sentiments exactly, Ice.  Unfortunately, with a tiny--relatively unskilled--dev team like AV, I think we are setting the bar too high when we assume UW will be even half of what they are claiming it will be.

Originally posted by indiramourn

Originally posted by ICEBLUE

I would love to see a PVE server.. Not sure why so many are addamently against it, since there would most likely be an option for players to move over to PVP if they wanted to.

Is it because the PVP community fears most will jump at the chance to go PVE is the option was open reducing the population on the PVP servers, or is ti because they need those noobs to hunt down to satsify something they get by doing so?

I enjoyed the world in DF1, liked to explore fight the PVE monsters etc, but got tired of bunny hoping gankers who preyed on the noobs, or those of us less thitchy fingured that would get killed over and over again.

I heard the "go play another game" rant but the real fact is, if there was a PVE server, more players would jump in and and many would eventually end up trying the PVP side as well, thus increasing the population which is the biggest issue currently and could quickly become the new big issue as yet again many wil try the game if stuck in PVP only, play a month or 2 and then leave.

My perosnal thoughts as a player of MMO's since way back with the Isle of Kesma on Compuserve ;)

 

My sentiments exactly, Ice.  Unfortunately, with a tiny--relatively unskilled--dev team like AV, I think we are setting the bar too high when we assume UW will be even half of what they are claiming it will be.

If they were unskilled they wouldn't have been able to make the first MMO engine capable of full real time combat without zones or instances... and the past 3 expansions they've released have all had what they said it'd have, so... chances are good.

---

DavisFlightDavisFlightOriginally posted by indiramourn

---

Originally posted by ICEBLUE I would love to see a PVE server.. Not sure why so many are addamently against it, since there would most likely be an option for players to move over to PVP if they wanted to. Is it because the PVP community fears most will jump at the chance to go PVE is the option was open reducing the population on the PVP servers, or is ti because they need those noobs to hunt down to satsify something they get by doing so? I enjoyed the world in DF1, liked to explore fight the PVE monsters etc, but got tired of bunny hoping gankers who preyed on the noobs, or those of us less thitchy fingured that would get killed over and over again. I heard the "go play another game" rant but the real fact is, if there was a PVE server, more players would jump in and and many would eventually end up trying the PVP side as well, thus increasing the population which is the biggest issue currently and could quickly become the new big issue as yet again many wil try the game if stuck in PVP only, play a month or 2 and then leave. My perosnal thoughts as a player of MMO's since way back with the Isle of Kesma on Compuserve ;)  

---

My sentiments exactly, Ice.  Unfortunately, with a tiny--relatively unskilled--dev team like AV, I think we are setting the bar too high when we assume UW will be even half of what they are claiming it will be.

---

Originally posted by 123443211234

Sorry to burst your bubble but DF1 did not fail it is stil going.  People that seem to want to change the ruleset of DF just don't get we aren't looking for millions of players not even hundreds of thousands just.....thousands of like minded individuals that want to play in a harsh environment where it takes actual skill to survive and thrive.

We like our niche game, aren't looking to make bazillions of dollars just a ffa full loot niche game.

It did fail based on what they could have achieved.  I am certain that a huge percentage of the people whoe tried DF, have quit.  That is a massive failure.  When you are in development for as long as DF was and had been released for as long as it is, then the developers decide to scrap their original and create a new game because of how many flaws and mistakes they made, that is a failure.  I fail from time to time at things, I don't die from my mistakes, but that doesn't mean they weren't failures.  Understand?

It's a niche game and a failure because it could be so much more.  I personally believe the PvE server idea is a bag one.  However, one of the main reasons that DF is a falure is because they are focusing too much on PvP.  Games like UO and SWG survives and thrived because they were more of an open world fantasy simulator than a large PvP arena.  THeir focus was allowing all play styles to exist and succeed in their game.  They understood that PvP is going to happen, no matter thhe penalty.  DF embraces and caters to people being jackasses and ruining the gaming experience of others, and that's why you'll never have a healthy playerbase similar to other games out there.  It's not because it's 'niche', or because it's a sandbox. It's because they are focusing on the wrong aspect of the game.  

It's always been like that and it likely always will.  And for that reason, DF will never be as good as it could be.  

Originally posted by Wizlock23
NO, i have played DF since it released , day one ---- there is NO way a pve only server would work.just trust me on this one , just not possible .

People like you only see the world in black and white.

Nice credentials.  But I've been playing sandbox MMO's since Ultima Online.  And I actually say it would work based on past experiences and successes.

I've also played DF.  

You have item durability and everyone can craft anything that they want.  You will still lose your items from PvE encounters from time to time as well.  So while the rapid change of hands will not be as significant when in comes to your gear, there will still be ways to lose them.  In order to make the ocean forts and villages useful, you put a bunch of NPC's in there and turn it into a clan raid spot for resources and loot.  You wouldn't need to change much at all.  It would likely bring a ton of people to the game and it wouldn't affect any of the current players because it would be on a separate PvE server.

Originally posted by DAS1337

Originally posted by Wizlock23
NO, i have played DF since it released , day one ---- there is NO way a pve only server would work.just trust me on this one , just not possible .

People like you only see the world in black and white.

 

Nice credentials.  But I've been playing sandbox MMO's since Ultima Online.  And I actually say it would work based on past experiences and successes.

 

I've also played DF.  

 

You have item durability and everyone can craft anything that they want.  You will still lose your items from PvE encounters from time to time as well.  So while the rapid change of hands will not be as significant when in comes to your gear, there will still be ways to lose them.  In order to make the ocean forts and villages useful, you put a bunch of NPC's in there and turn it into a clan raid spot for resources and loot.  You wouldn't need to change much at all.  It would likely bring a ton of people to the game and it wouldn't affect any of the current players because it would be on a separate PvE server.

It would take precious development time and money away from the main version of the game, and it just wouldn't be very good. People would get bored pretty quickly once they've gotten good enough to kill the highest level mobs. And without any kind of PvP nothing stops players from just zerging every encounter. There would be no way to stop people from griefing by blocking things off.

So many aspects of the game would have to be rewritten to make it viable, and that's time that the loyal current Darkfall players wouldn't be getting any content or patches.

Originally posted by googie23
lots of ways to PvP on PvE servers

Please explain your brilliant idea.

By turning off damage to other players, you eliminate PvP altogether.  There is no way around not being able to do damage to other players.  That change is pretty final.  Sure, could you train mobs into people?  Absolutely.  That isn't really PvP.  That has been in MMO's since the beginning of MMO's.

Originally posted by DAS1337

Originally posted by 123443211234

Sorry to burst your bubble but DF1 did not fail it is stil going.  People that seem to want to change the ruleset of DF just don't get we aren't looking for millions of players not even hundreds of thousands just.....thousands of like minded individuals that want to play in a harsh environment where it takes actual skill to survive and thrive.

We like our niche game, aren't looking to make bazillions of dollars just a ffa full loot niche game.

It did fail based on what they could have achieved.  I am certain that a huge percentage of the people whoe tried DF, have quit.  That is a massive failure.  When you are in development for as long as DF was and had been released for as long as it is, then the developers decide to scrap their original and create a new game because of how many flaws and mistakes they made, that is a failure.  I fail from time to time at things, I don't die from my mistakes, but that doesn't mean they weren't failures.  Understand?

 

It's a niche game and a failure because it could be so much more.  I personally believe the PvE server idea is a bag one.  However, one of the main reasons that DF is a falure is because they are focusing too much on PvP.  Games like UO and SWG survives and thrived because they were more of an open world fantasy simulator than a large PvP arena. 

Those two games also had huge teams of experienced developers with big budgets behind them. Darkfall did not.

And a large percentage of people quit EVERY MMO.

I'd hardly call Darkfall a failure considering it made enough profit to raise a second server and hire 30 new devs. You don't do that when you're a "failure".

Originally posted by DavisFlight

Originally posted by DAS1337

Originally posted by Wizlock23
NO, i have played DF since it released , day one ---- there is NO way a pve only server would work.just trust me on this one , just not possible .

People like you only see the world in black and white.

 

Nice credentials.  But I've been playing sandbox MMO's since Ultima Online.  And I actually say it would work based on past experiences and successes.

 

I've also played DF.  

 

You have item durability and everyone can craft anything that they want.  You will still lose your items from PvE encounters from time to time as well.  So while the rapid change of hands will not be as significant when in comes to your gear, there will still be ways to lose them.  In order to make the ocean forts and villages useful, you put a bunch of NPC's in there and turn it into a clan raid spot for resources and loot.  You wouldn't need to change much at all.  It would likely bring a ton of people to the game and it wouldn't affect any of the current players because it would be on a separate PvE server.

It would take precious development time and money away from the main version of the game, and it just wouldn't be very good. People would get bored pretty quickly once they've gotten good enough to kill the highest level mobs. And without any kind of PvP nothing stops players from just zerging every encounter. There would be no way to stop people from griefing by blocking things off.

So many aspects of the game would have to be rewritten to make it viable, and that's time that the loyal current Darkfall players wouldn't be getting any content or patches.

Like what?  Don't just make a statement and not explain it.  What part of the game would need re-written?  Again, other than the PvP structures in certain parts of the world.  Making the game PvE would take very little time.  And yes, you are right, people would get bored.  Kind of like how they are now, only running around and killing each other because there is nothing to do.  Which is the whole point of a sandbox, to have the tools to do as you wish.  They focus on PvP and end up getting a PvE arena, what a surprise.  Instead of focusing on altername play styles and sandbox features to create more potential content for the players.  

But really, are you using that as an axcuse?  The fact that people get bored?  Name an MMO where you have never been bored.  You can't.  

Originally posted by DAS1337

Originally posted by DavisFlight

Originally posted by DAS1337

Originally posted by Wizlock23
NO, i have played DF since it released , day one ---- there is NO way a pve only server would work.just trust me on this one , just not possible .

People like you only see the world in black and white.

 

Nice credentials.  But I've been playing sandbox MMO's since Ultima Online.  And I actually say it would work based on past experiences and successes.

 

I've also played DF.  

 

You have item durability and everyone can craft anything that they want.  You will still lose your items from PvE encounters from time to time as well.  So while the rapid change of hands will not be as significant when in comes to your gear, there will still be ways to lose them.  In order to make the ocean forts and villages useful, you put a bunch of NPC's in there and turn it into a clan raid spot for resources and loot.  You wouldn't need to change much at all.  It would likely bring a ton of people to the game and it wouldn't affect any of the current players because it would be on a separate PvE server.

It would take precious development time and money away from the main version of the game, and it just wouldn't be very good. People would get bored pretty quickly once they've gotten good enough to kill the highest level mobs. And without any kind of PvP nothing stops players from just zerging every encounter. There would be no way to stop people from griefing by blocking things off.

So many aspects of the game would have to be rewritten to make it viable, and that's time that the loyal current Darkfall players wouldn't be getting any content or patches.

Like what?  Don't just make a statement and not explain it.  What part of the game would need re-written? 

Uhh... the part I just explained above.

And yeah, being bad is a pretty good excuse not to do something. AV is such a small studio they can barely manage one game, much less two. It would make BOTH products suffer from lack of focus and resources. Don't bother doing something if you're going to half ass it.

Originally posted by DavisFlight

Originally posted by DAS1337

Originally posted by 123443211234

Sorry to burst your bubble but DF1 did not fail it is stil going.  People that seem to want to change the ruleset of DF just don't get we aren't looking for millions of players not even hundreds of thousands just.....thousands of like minded individuals that want to play in a harsh environment where it takes actual skill to survive and thrive.

We like our niche game, aren't looking to make bazillions of dollars just a ffa full loot niche game.

It did fail based on what they could have achieved.  I am certain that a huge percentage of the people whoe tried DF, have quit.  That is a massive failure.  When you are in development for as long as DF was and had been released for as long as it is, then the developers decide to scrap their original and create a new game because of how many flaws and mistakes they made, that is a failure.  I fail from time to time at things, I don't die from my mistakes, but that doesn't mean they weren't failures.  Understand?

 

It's a niche game and a failure because it could be so much more.  I personally believe the PvE server idea is a bag one.  However, one of the main reasons that DF is a falure is because they are focusing too much on PvP.  Games like UO and SWG survives and thrived because they were more of an open world fantasy simulator than a large PvP arena. 

Those two games also had huge teams of experienced developers with big budgets behind them. Darkfall did not.

And a large percentage of people quit EVERY MMO.

I'd hardly call Darkfall a failure considering it made enough profit to raise a second server and hire 30 new devs. You don't do that when you're a "failure".

Holy cows batman!  DF has TWO servers and less than ten thousand active subscriptions and it's not a failure?  Are you as ignorant as you appear to be?  First off, I said Darkfall is a failure based on what it COULD have achieved.  Reading comprehension FTL I guess.  Darkfall, if designed correctly, could have hundreds of thousands of players currently.  And what part of deciding that your game cannot be fixed because you failed making it the first time is not a failure to you?  No crap, a large percentage of people quit every MMO.  My point, which clearly eluded your stunning intellect, was that, that percentage is likely larger than most games.  Not only that, when you are a NICHE game and you can't draw in NICHE fans, don't you see a problem in that?  Wouldn't it be reasonable to believe that there is a failure somewhere down the line when you can't bring in fans of the genre that you made a MMO for?  No?

It's so mind-boggling as to how DF supporters can continue to defend their game and the company who made it years after launch, AND after the company itself admits to it's own FAILURE.  I mean, really dude?  Take off the blinders and call it for what it is.  DF:UW will do little in the way of bringing new players to the game in the end.  It will keep existing players happy, and perhaps a few more subs will be made. 

They get kudos for actually admitting to their failures and taking a huge risk to fix some of their mistakes.  I do not give kudos to people who can't face facts when they are being smacked in the face over and over with it.

Originally posted by DavisFlight

Originally posted by DAS1337

Originally posted by DavisFlight

Originally posted by DAS1337

Originally posted by Wizlock23
NO, i have played DF since it released , day one ---- there is NO way a pve only server would work.just trust me on this one , just not possible .

People like you only see the world in black and white.

 

Nice credentials.  But I've been playing sandbox MMO's since Ultima Online.  And I actually say it would work based on past experiences and successes.

 

I've also played DF.  

 

You have item durability and everyone can craft anything that they want.  You will still lose your items from PvE encounters from time to time as well.  So while the rapid change of hands will not be as significant when in comes to your gear, there will still be ways to lose them.  In order to make the ocean forts and villages useful, you put a bunch of NPC's in there and turn it into a clan raid spot for resources and loot.  You wouldn't need to change much at all.  It would likely bring a ton of people to the game and it wouldn't affect any of the current players because it would be on a separate PvE server.

It would take precious development time and money away from the main version of the game, and it just wouldn't be very good. People would get bored pretty quickly once they've gotten good enough to kill the highest level mobs. And without any kind of PvP nothing stops players from just zerging every encounter. There would be no way to stop people from griefing by blocking things off.

So many aspects of the game would have to be rewritten to make it viable, and that's time that the loyal current Darkfall players wouldn't be getting any content or patches.

Like what?  Don't just make a statement and not explain it.  What part of the game would need re-written? 

Uhh... the part I just explained above.

And yeah, being bad is a pretty good excuse not to do something. AV is such a small studio they can barely manage one game, much less two. It would make BOTH products suffer from lack of focus and resources. Don't bother doing something if you're going to half ass it.

You didn't explain anything.  You said people would zerg encounters.  Okay, make the encounters harder?  It doesn't take much talent to adjust statistics on NPC mobs.  Man, that was easy to fix your huge problem.  Didn't expect that did you?  Weird.

Originally posted by DAS1337

Originally posted by DavisFlight

Originally posted by DAS1337

Originally posted by 123443211234

Sorry to burst your bubble but DF1 did not fail it is stil going.  People that seem to want to change the ruleset of DF just don't get we aren't looking for millions of players not even hundreds of thousands just.....thousands of like minded individuals that want to play in a harsh environment where it takes actual skill to survive and thrive.

We like our niche game, aren't looking to make bazillions of dollars just a ffa full loot niche game.

It did fail based on what they could have achieved.  I am certain that a huge percentage of the people whoe tried DF, have quit.  That is a massive failure.  When you are in development for as long as DF was and had been released for as long as it is, then the developers decide to scrap their original and create a new game because of how many flaws and mistakes they made, that is a failure.  I fail from time to time at things, I don't die from my mistakes, but that doesn't mean they weren't failures.  Understand?

 

It's a niche game and a failure because it could be so much more.  I personally believe the PvE server idea is a bag one.  However, one of the main reasons that DF is a falure is because they are focusing too much on PvP.  Games like UO and SWG survives and thrived because they were more of an open world fantasy simulator than a large PvP arena. 

Those two games also had huge teams of experienced developers with big budgets behind them. Darkfall did not.

And a large percentage of people quit EVERY MMO.

I'd hardly call Darkfall a failure considering it made enough profit to raise a second server and hire 30 new devs. You don't do that when you're a "failure".

Holy cows batman!  DF has TWO servers and less than ten thousand active subscriptions and it's not a failure?

Growth, expansion, and profit are objective idicators of success. Success is the opposite of failure.

/thread.