Originally posted by KingJiggly

Originally posted by DavisFlight

It's hard to take this website seriously when they give SWTOR 9.5s and Vanguard a 6, and now claim that GW2 raised the bar...

 

People, the bar has been up there. AC, EQ, DAoC, UO, SWG, those games raised the bar. We've been wallowing well under the bar for about 8 years now thanks to WoW and its platoon of clones. GW2 is the first AAA MMORPG in years to even come close to the old MMOs (by, go figure, reusing ideas from Dark Age of Camelot) but lets not pretend its the best there ever was. It's just the first game to actually TRY in 8 years, but that doesn't invalidate the greatness of those golden age MMORPGs.

I have a question, why do people want the old MMOs? Because they were better, and made with a lot more care. Come on people, there is a reason the genre has changed. And that reason is because old MMOs became popular, so publishers got involved, but didn't want to do anything new, so they just plopped out the same garbage over and over. The market wants it. Haha no they clearly don't, considering every single WoW clone over the last 8 years has done really poorly and merged servers within months of launch. These people who comment about how this game comes close or offends them becuase the old MMOs were better gotta be kidding me. Take it from people who were actually there instead of guessing about times you never experienced. We're not kidding you. You all remind me of a English teacher who refused any new English. We had to pronounce words like metaphor into metapher and crap like that. Er, that's because that's how the word is pronounced. You don't go into a math class and say "but we want 2+2 to equal 10!" We hated it. He also had an odd superiority complex that I do not understand to this day. Back to the main issue, my point is things change and grow as time goes on. Hopefully, for the better. And in this case, not for the better. But hey, fuck us for wanting better products, right? There is a reason old MMOs do not exist. Right, because publishers who have no understand of the MMO industry stepped in. Becuase they weren't as good as you remembered them. I just played a freeshard the other day, it was just as amazing as I remember it. Better, actually. I've gotten used to such low quality products that I was kind of amazed how good the game was. In fact, they sucked. Thanks, yeah, I'll believe you, the person who never played old MMOs.

Listen, if you're going to debate about something, come in with even ANY idea about what you're talking about. If those old MMOs suck, then why did GW2 basically copy and paste their entire PvP design from old MMOs?

Originally posted by Aerowyn

Originally posted by KingJiggly

Originally posted by romanator0

Originally posted by bcbully

You've posted this twice. It still makes no sense.

Reference to the song American pie, even though it has no real relation.... Bully seems to know what the song is about.

song is about "The Day The Music Died".. not sure what bcbully means but sure it's something along the lines "The day MMORPG.com Died" or something silly like that

I think that is what he's saying and I completely agree.  This is the first step in "pop-ifying" the MMORPG.  The only way to "Pop-ify" anything is to dumb it down (because the masses are educated through their T.V. sitcoms) and to blanket it's true definition so that now it has no definition (Emanuel Kant....the father of anti-philosophy) and then use phony claims of being different so that, although it's the same, people "feel" different....disguisting world we live in.

Originally posted by Randayn

Originally posted by evolver1972

Originally posted by Yakamomoto

Originally posted by Randayn

Innovation has 1 definition and can be easily identified.  There is nothing subjective about my statement.  This game does not bring with it "innovation"....If I go and change the curtain on my window from ruffled to straight and short, does that mean I get a score of 10 for innovation??  Well, that's exactly what GW2 did, as well as follow in the footsteps of WOW by dumbing down the genre even more than it already was dumbed down.

 

Don´t worry, just take another MMO site off the credibility list, like I just did.

Innovation 10, woah this is a real kicker.

 

Thanks to this review, it´s good to know there will never be something else or better to expect from the MMO genre.

 

If GW2 is really the absolute "10" peak of innovation I guess it´s time to quit the genre alltogether and say goodbye to egg collecting, cow feeding and zergs. At the end I never liked Facebook games either.

By giving it a 10 for innovation he's not saying that's all the innovation any game is ever going to have from here on out.  He's saying the differences this particular game has over current games is way better than pretty much anything he has seen to this point.  That doesn't  mean a game won't come along in the future and be just as innovative as GW2 in a different way.

 

Besides, his overall score was 9.3.  That leaves room for improvement, I'd say.

 

But, if disagreeing with someone over how they rate a game makes you want to quit playing MMOs, I'll be glad I won't run into you in an MMO in the future.

the issue still remains that you cannot give a game a score for innovation unless they have actually innovated.  Jump quests and multi-user mat nodes....that's what they innovated.  Nothing else was a brand new idea brought to the forefront.  

Don't say DE's because they are still quests (some of the worst actually) and you still have to go somewhere (a hub) to get them, you just dont have to talk with anyone.  Don't say personal story....SWTOR anyone?  Don't say lack of trinity...I played Champions Online at launch and there was no trinity....it was a zerg/respawn fest much like GW2.  

So please tell me what they've brought to the table that is entirely new and innovative?  Please....

Then I must give Apple a 1 innovation... Star Trek had stuff like the iPad way before they did. But, wait, they are one of the largest companies in the world. Waaaaaaaaaahhhh?! 

Innovation is how you present it also. I find people mix revelation and innovation with each other. No, this game gets a 10 innovation becuase it presented and worked itself out to be something different, new, raw. Innovation can be worked on grown.other MMOs can not do this simply becuase of normal questing, such as wow and tsw. Gw2 has the chance, not saying it isn't already, to innovate itself even more than it is now. This is how they innovated, they are not stale or incumbent end by laws set by other MMOs. They grew out of that. They said they were going to be drastically different than any other MMO out there, and it is an innovation that they were. That is my thought on this anyway.

Originally posted by grimgryphon

Originally posted by DavisFlight

It's hard to take this website seriously when they give SWTOR 9.5s and Vanguard a 6, and now claim that GW2 raised the bar...

Well, in all fairness, the same person does not review all the games on MMORPG.com so there will be differences in how each game is scored.

I generally agree with Murphy -- not this time -- but generally.

Bitton is another matter...

They all gave SWTOR 9s. Only one person didn't, and he got fired over it. True story.

  Raising the Bar Humm...

 Exploring = 90% of the time following your nose to a location clearly marked on the map. (Look Ma I'm Exploring!) Ah yes pat yourself on the back, Very challenging.

 Socializing? Your forced into a zerg where 95% of the players don't say a word, and where its generally face roll easy enough that some Slob will tag a critter and then spend the rest of the DE dancing, because he/she will still get exp and loot reward.

  In so many ways GW2 lowered the bar to the point its almost like a single player game with alot of random AI npc's running around.

  It caters to the super casuals that can't be bothered with things like stratagey, chat, or even knowing ones class mechanics. (Dungeons being perhaps the one evception.)

Great review for a great game. Thank you Bill :)

This MMO brings so much to the table - the score is well earned. It is so funny to read all these silly flames, as they would ever criticize another MMO in the same way. The best thing about this game is, that he designers really put a lot of thought into many details to make it a better experience than in the average wow-clone-mmo.

I can understand, that die-hard fans of games like Vanguard or Darkfall do not like GW2. But for the common casual theme-park-oriented player it is the best choice.

Originally posted by Randayn

Originally posted by Aerowyn

Originally posted by KingJiggly

Originally posted by romanator0

Originally posted by bcbully

You've posted this twice. It still makes no sense.

Reference to the song American pie, even though it has no real relation.... Bully seems to know what the song is about.

song is about "The Day The Music Died".. not sure what bcbully means but sure it's something along the lines "The day MMORPG.com Died" or something silly like that

I think that is what he's saying and I completely agree.  This is the first step in "pop-ifying" the MMORPG.  The only way to "Pop-ify" anything is to dumb it down (because the masses are educated through their T.V. sitcoms) and to blanket it's true definition so that now it has no definition (Emanuel Kant....the father of anti-philosophy) and then use phony claims of being different so that, although it's the same, people "feel" different....disguisting world we live in.

pretty sure wow started that many years ago sorry..

Originally posted by KingJiggly

Originally posted by Randayn

Originally posted by evolver1972

Originally posted by Yakamomoto

Originally posted by Randayn

Innovation has 1 definition and can be easily identified.  There is nothing subjective about my statement.  This game does not bring with it "innovation"....If I go and change the curtain on my window from ruffled to straight and short, does that mean I get a score of 10 for innovation??  Well, that's exactly what GW2 did, as well as follow in the footsteps of WOW by dumbing down the genre even more than it already was dumbed down.

 

Don´t worry, just take another MMO site off the credibility list, like I just did.

Innovation 10, woah this is a real kicker.

 

Thanks to this review, it´s good to know there will never be something else or better to expect from the MMO genre.

 

If GW2 is really the absolute "10" peak of innovation I guess it´s time to quit the genre alltogether and say goodbye to egg collecting, cow feeding and zergs. At the end I never liked Facebook games either.

By giving it a 10 for innovation he's not saying that's all the innovation any game is ever going to have from here on out.  He's saying the differences this particular game has over current games is way better than pretty much anything he has seen to this point.  That doesn't  mean a game won't come along in the future and be just as innovative as GW2 in a different way.

 

Besides, his overall score was 9.3.  That leaves room for improvement, I'd say.

 

But, if disagreeing with someone over how they rate a game makes you want to quit playing MMOs, I'll be glad I won't run into you in an MMO in the future.

the issue still remains that you cannot give a game a score for innovation unless they have actually innovated.  Jump quests and multi-user mat nodes....that's what they innovated.  Nothing else was a brand new idea brought to the forefront.  

Don't say DE's because they are still quests (some of the worst actually) and you still have to go somewhere (a hub) to get them, you just dont have to talk with anyone.  Don't say personal story....SWTOR anyone?  Don't say lack of trinity...I played Champions Online at launch and there was no trinity....it was a zerg/respawn fest much like GW2.  

So please tell me what they've brought to the table that is entirely new and innovative?  Please....

Then I must give Apple a 1 innovation... Star Trek had stuff like the iPad way before they did. But, wait, they are one of the largest companies in the world. Waaaaaaaaaahhhh?! 

Innovation is how you present it also. I find people mix revelation and innovation with each other. No, this game gets a 10 innovation becuase it presented and worked itself out to be something different, new, raw. Innovation can be worked on grown.other MMOs can not do this simply becuase of normal questing, such as wow and tsw. Gw2 has the chance, not saying it isn't already, to innovate itself even more than it is now. This is how they innovated, they are not stale or incumbent end by laws set by other MMOs. They grew out of that. They said they were going to be drastically different than any other MMO out there, and it is an innovation that they were. That is my thought on this anyway.

in·no·va·tion

Originally posted by DavisFlight

Originally posted by KingJiggly

Originally posted by DavisFlight

It's hard to take this website seriously when they give SWTOR 9.5s and Vanguard a 6, and now claim that GW2 raised the bar...

 

People, the bar has been up there. AC, EQ, DAoC, UO, SWG, those games raised the bar. We've been wallowing well under the bar for about 8 years now thanks to WoW and its platoon of clones. GW2 is the first AAA MMORPG in years to even come close to the old MMOs (by, go figure, reusing ideas from Dark Age of Camelot) but lets not pretend its the best there ever was. It's just the first game to actually TRY in 8 years, but that doesn't invalidate the greatness of those golden age MMORPGs.

I have a question, why do people want the old MMOs? Because they were better, and made with a lot more care. Come on people, there is a reason the genre has changed. And that reason is because old MMOs became popular, so publishers got involved, but didn't want to do anything new, so they just plopped out the same garbage over and over. The market wants it. Haha no they clearly don't, considering every single WoW clone over the last 8 years has done really poorly and merged servers within months of launch. These people who comment about how this game comes close or offends them becuase the old MMOs were better gotta be kidding me. Take it from people who were actually there instead of guessing about times you never experienced. We're not kidding you. You all remind me of a English teacher who refused any new English. We had to pronounce words like metaphor into metapher and crap like that. Er, that's because that's how the word is pronounced. You don't go into a math class and say "but we want 2+2 to equal 10!" We hated it. He also had an odd superiority complex that I do not understand to this day. Back to the main issue, my point is things change and grow as time goes on. Hopefully, for the better. And in this case, not for the better. But hey, fuck us for wanting better products, right? There is a reason old MMOs do not exist. Right, because publishers who have no understand of the MMO industry stepped in. Becuase they weren't as good as you remembered them. I just played a freeshard the other day, it was just as amazing as I remember it. Better, actually. I've gotten used to such low quality products that I was kind of amazed how good the game was. In fact, they sucked. Thanks, yeah, I'll believe you, the person who never played old MMOs.

Listen, if you're going to debate about something, come in with even ANY idea about what you're talking about. If those old MMOs suck, then why did GW2 basically copy and paste their entire PvP design from old MMOs?

GW2 gets more credit than they deserve in the innovation department, and that's simply because there aren't many MMORPG gamers left. Not golden age MMO gamers anyway. The people who saw these ideas the first time around and don't credit their inception to GW2, are fewer than those born in WoW who have REALLY low MMO standards. You can always tell when someone played WoW first when they argue that stuff like LotRO and AoC are "SO TOTALLY DIFFERENT" from WoW.

In any case, I'll always be grateful for GW2 for getting rid of the retarded quest mechanics of WoW, but its PvP is still just an unpolished version of DAoC's PvP.

Originally posted by Aerowyn

Originally posted by Randayn

Originally posted by Aerowyn

Originally posted by KingJiggly

Originally posted by romanator0

Originally posted by bcbully

You've posted this twice. It still makes no sense.

Reference to the song American pie, even though it has no real relation.... Bully seems to know what the song is about.

song is about "The Day The Music Died".. not sure what bcbully means but sure it's something along the lines "The day MMORPG.com Died" or something silly like that

I think that is what he's saying and I completely agree.  This is the first step in "pop-ifying" the MMORPG.  The only way to "Pop-ify" anything is to dumb it down (because the masses are educated through their T.V. sitcoms) and to blanket it's true definition so that now it has no definition (Emanuel Kant....the father of anti-philosophy) and then use phony claims of being different so that, although it's the same, people "feel" different....disguisting world we live in.

pretty sure wow started that many years ago sorry..

I'd say it was more a grandfather to it...kinda like Iggy Pop or the Rolling Stones or even Chuck Berry is to Punk Rock....they kinda made the first push.  I believe GW2 has gone and pushed it over the edge....to the point of no return.  Now we can all be plugged in with no sight of a red pill anywhere...

Originally posted by Randayn

Originally posted by Aerowyn

Originally posted by Randayn

Originally posted by Aerowyn

Originally posted by KingJiggly

Originally posted by romanator0

Originally posted by bcbully

You've posted this twice. It still makes no sense.

Reference to the song American pie, even though it has no real relation.... Bully seems to know what the song is about.

song is about "The Day The Music Died".. not sure what bcbully means but sure it's something along the lines "The day MMORPG.com Died" or something silly like that

I think that is what he's saying and I completely agree.  This is the first step in "pop-ifying" the MMORPG.  The only way to "Pop-ify" anything is to dumb it down (because the masses are educated through their T.V. sitcoms) and to blanket it's true definition so that now it has no definition (Emanuel Kant....the father of anti-philosophy) and then use phony claims of being different so that, although it's the same, people "feel" different....disguisting world we live in.

pretty sure wow started that many years ago sorry..

I'd say it was more a grandfather to it...kinda like Iggy Pop or the Rolling Stones or even Chuck Berry is to Punk Rock....they kinda made the first push.  I believe GW2 has gone and pushed it over the edge....to the point of no return.  Now we can all be plugged in with no sight of a red pill anywhere...

lol melodrama much?

Originally posted by DavisFlight

Originally posted by KingJiggly

Originally posted by DavisFlight

It's hard to take this website seriously when they give SWTOR 9.5s and Vanguard a 6, and now claim that GW2 raised the bar...

 

People, the bar has been up there. AC, EQ, DAoC, UO, SWG, those games raised the bar. We've been wallowing well under the bar for about 8 years now thanks to WoW and its platoon of clones. GW2 is the first AAA MMORPG in years to even come close to the old MMOs (by, go figure, reusing ideas from Dark Age of Camelot) but lets not pretend its the best there ever was. It's just the first game to actually TRY in 8 years, but that doesn't invalidate the greatness of those golden age MMORPGs.

I have a question, why do people want the old MMOs? Because they were better, and made with a lot more care. Come on people, there is a reason the genre has changed. And that reason is because old MMOs became popular, so publishers got involved, but didn't want to do anything new, so they just plopped out the same garbage over and over. The market wants it. Haha no they clearly don't, considering every single WoW clone over the last 8 years has done really poorly and merged servers within months of launch. These people who comment about how this game comes close or offends them becuase the old MMOs were better gotta be kidding me. Take it from people who were actually there instead of guessing about times you never experienced. We're not kidding you. You all remind me of a English teacher who refused any new English. We had to pronounce words like metaphor into metapher and crap like that. Er, that's because that's how the word is pronounced. You don't go into a math class and say "but we want 2+2 to equal 10!" We hated it. He also had an odd superiority complex that I do not understand to this day. Back to the main issue, my point is things change and grow as time goes on. Hopefully, for the better. And in this case, not for the better. But hey, fuck us for wanting better products, right? There is a reason old MMOs do not exist. Right, because publishers who have no understand of the MMO industry stepped in. Becuase they weren't as good as you remembered them. I just played a freeshard the other day, it was just as amazing as I remember it. Better, actually. I've gotten used to such low quality products that I was kind of amazed how good the game was. In fact, they sucked. Thanks, yeah, I'll believe you, the person who never played old MMOs.

Listen, if you're going to debate about something, come in with even ANY idea about what you're talking about. If those old MMOs suck, then why did GW2 basically copy and paste their entire PvP design from old MMOs?

Hey, guess what, I was talking about MMOs prior to wow, which seems to be the end all be all in your mind. 

Edit: and you build new things on the ideas of old. Doac, which you seem to refer to a lot, barely has the amount of mechanics GW 2 does, now does it?

Originally posted by Aerowyn

Originally posted by Randayn

Originally posted by Aerowyn

Originally posted by Randayn

Originally posted by Aerowyn

Originally posted by KingJiggly

Originally posted by romanator0

Originally posted by bcbully

You've posted this twice. It still makes no sense.

Reference to the song American pie, even though it has no real relation.... Bully seems to know what the song is about.

song is about "The Day The Music Died".. not sure what bcbully means but sure it's something along the lines "The day MMORPG.com Died" or something silly like that

I think that is what he's saying and I completely agree.  This is the first step in "pop-ifying" the MMORPG.  The only way to "Pop-ify" anything is to dumb it down (because the masses are educated through their T.V. sitcoms) and to blanket it's true definition so that now it has no definition (Emanuel Kant....the father of anti-philosophy) and then use phony claims of being different so that, although it's the same, people "feel" different....disguisting world we live in.

pretty sure wow started that many years ago sorry..

I'd say it was more a grandfather to it...kinda like Iggy Pop or the Rolling Stones or even Chuck Berry is to Punk Rock....they kinda made the first push.  I believe GW2 has gone and pushed it over the edge....to the point of no return.  Now we can all be plugged in with no sight of a red pill anywhere...

lol melodrama much?

not at all...ratings mean alot more than you might make them out to mean....not to the gamer, but to the companies vying for power in the MMO industry, yes.  Why?  Because they aren't stupid....and they want to make money.  They will make what they think people want, which ratings play a big part in.  I don't think it's melodramatic to say what I said above....I think it's realistic.

Originally posted by Randayn

I'd say it was more a grandfather to it...kinda like Iggy Pop or the Rolling Stones or even Chuck Berry is to Punk Rock....they kinda made the first push.  I believe GW2 has gone and pushed it over the edge....to the point of no return.  Now we can all be plugged in with no sight of a red pill anywhere...

lol melodrama much?

not at all...ratings mean alot more than you might make them out to mean....not to the gamer, but to the companies vying for power in the MMO industry, yes.  Why?  Because they aren't stupid....and they want to make money.  They will make what they think people want, which ratings play a big part in.  I don't think it's melodramatic to say what I said above....I think it's realistic.

and if companies are going to start going the way of no quest hubs and non raid type endgame and actually trying something new for an overall game design I welcome it with open arms instead of suffering through the same old same old every year.. GW2 is a breath of fresh air to me and many themepark fans

Originally posted by Aerowyn

Originally posted by Randayn

I'd say it was more a grandfather to it...kinda like Iggy Pop or the Rolling Stones or even Chuck Berry is to Punk Rock....they kinda made the first push.  I believe GW2 has gone and pushed it over the edge....to the point of no return.  Now we can all be plugged in with no sight of a red pill anywhere...

lol melodrama much?

not at all...ratings mean alot more than you might make them out to mean....not to the gamer, but to the companies vying for power in the MMO industry, yes.  Why?  Because they aren't stupid....and they want to make money.  They will make what they think people want, which ratings play a big part in.  I don't think it's melodramatic to say what I said above....I think it's realistic.

and if companies are going to start going the way of no quest hubs and non raid type endgame and actually trying something new for an overall game design I welcome it with open arms instead of suffering through the same old same old every year.. GW2 is a breath of fresh air to me and many themepark fans

I disagree on no quest hubs.  Hubs are where you can get a quest.  not necessarily where a person is to give you a quest.  There are plenty of "hubs" in GW2.  Also, addition by subtraction doesn't work in this instance.  

If a game is made to reach max level quickly (within a month) then you can't just say, "Uh...we're gonna be cool...and...and not have an endgame!!!"....and expect loud roars and cheers.  why remove something that didn't need to be removed?  Especially when no new "innovations" were presented to take it's place?

Originally posted by Randayn

Originally posted by Aerowyn

Originally posted by Randayn

I'd say it was more a grandfather to it...kinda like Iggy Pop or the Rolling Stones or even Chuck Berry is to Punk Rock....they kinda made the first push.  I believe GW2 has gone and pushed it over the edge....to the point of no return.  Now we can all be plugged in with no sight of a red pill anywhere...

lol melodrama much?

not at all...ratings mean alot more than you might make them out to mean....not to the gamer, but to the companies vying for power in the MMO industry, yes.  Why?  Because they aren't stupid....and they want to make money.  They will make what they think people want, which ratings play a big part in.  I don't think it's melodramatic to say what I said above....I think it's realistic.

and if companies are going to start going the way of no quest hubs and non raid type endgame and actually trying something new for an overall game design I welcome it with open arms instead of suffering through the same old same old every year.. GW2 is a breath of fresh air to me and many themepark fans

I disagree on no quest hubs.  Hubs are where you can get a quest.  not necessarily where a person is to give you a quest.  There are plenty of "hubs" in GW2.  Also, addition by subtraction doesn't work in this instance.  

If a game is made to reach max level quickly (within a month) then you can't just say, "Uh...we're gonna be cool...and...and not have an endgame!!!"....and expect loud roars and cheers.  why remove something that didn't need to be removed?  Especially when no new "innovations" were presented to take it's place?

game was only made to reach 80 fast if that's how you want to play it(which is fine).. i'm sitting at 191 hours and highest level character is 44.. also what aside from raids is GW2 lacking in the endgame department?

And what are the "hubs" of GW2?

GW2 has no longevity.  No MMO will ever again have longevity until(or unless,  it could never happen successfully) there is one that comes out with ever changing user created content.  If that does not happen there will never be another MMO that people do not gobble up and spit out and move on.  This game for sure does not have it, no Wow expansion will have it.  Neverwinter Nights?  Maybe but certainly not GW2 on the grand scale there is nothing in this game that will keep people playing for a long period of time.  And no WvW pvp will not do it.  People that love doing PvP over and over again have largely left MMO's and moved to games like LOL.  Sure some will stick around and do it but not in any huge numbers.  6 months down the road people will be bored and ANET has a 0% chance of being able to put out content quick enough.

It's not hardcore and different enough for me to play... I don't play modern MMOs because they bore the fuck out of me, and all guild wars 2 does differently is let people get into the action faster.

I'm still waiting for the open world MMO so many crave, why do no developers want to take a risk, they just pump out one generic game after another. Common lottery ticket, make me a milliionaire I want to create a truly epic MMO.