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News & Features Discussion  » [Column] General: High Expectations

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70 posts found
  User Deleted
10/04/12 5:24:03 AM#41
call me ignorant but this girl doesnot know how to write an article . she comes up with her own imagination . makes two paragraphs ,and thats it . plz some more maturity . your articles are really really boringgggggg
  Kyleran

Bitter Vet™

Joined: 9/13/06
Posts: 18993

Fools find no pleasure in understanding, but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV

10/04/12 5:35:10 AM#42
Originally posted by Pokket

Stevenra: I like to think I've been very unbiased in A LOT of reviews, first impressions, etc of games that I cover. I was rather pessimistic about SWTOR, Tera, and GW2 before they launched and, while I won't say they are the game of my dreams, they are certainly something to fill my time with. I tend to give both the goods and bads of every game I've tried out. I don't give you what devs want to hear, but I do try to put the negatives nicely. There is a major difference.

 

kaiser3282: That is completely false, sir. The Mythic version of WAR was RvR/PvP focused and had to put in PvE. You may be thinking of another version of Warhammer put on by a different company that was PvE focused and got cancelled.

 

Freezzo: The suits call the shots on A LOT of things, and in SWTOR's case, Lucas Arts also puts their hand in the jar. Like Matt Higby said at the Future of MMO panel at PAX, there's a lot devs want to do, functionality they want to put into the game, but there is only so much they can do due to budget, time restrictions, shots called, etc. To think devs don't know what's missing from their game as they play, is really to think foolishly. Ofc they are going to say they like the game they spent hours, days, months, years working on. I'm sure they are still proud.

 
 
 
 

Actrually, my memory of the situation is more with kaiser3282.  It was during the initial beta reports we first heard that all the RVR in WAR was designed around their WOW equivalent BG's and in fact, open world RVR was almost non-existent.

There was such an outcry they actually delayed the release by 9 months to a year in order to go back to the drawing board and expand the RVR content.

At the time most testers were amazed that Mythic would not design their title around open world RVR, but the influence of WOW was strong in that title.  (considering their common ancestry, unsurprising really)

As for expecations, I don't consider mine unreasonable, (of course) and I'm really not looking for perfection. If a developer could deliver a quality MMORPG that was a bit more akin to DAOC than anything else I'd be pretty happy.  Who knows, they say Elder Scrolls online might be the one, we'll see.

 

"In these forums 'honest' seems to be a symonym for 'hates the game just like I do'" - ohioastro
Kyleran - Bitter Vet ™ since 2006
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon

  apocoluster

Apprentice Member

Joined: 4/15/07
Posts: 1295

\m/,

10/04/12 7:08:33 AM#43
Originally posted by aleos
well then i guess i'll just start hoping for the worst and never be dissapointed

Amen  or like I said..keep your expectations low

No matter how cynical you become, its never enough to keep up - Lily Tomlin

  apocoluster

Apprentice Member

Joined: 4/15/07
Posts: 1295

\m/,

10/04/12 7:11:27 AM#44
Originally posted by shava

I was at a game conference at MIT recently, and talked with a few game industry folks who are terrified of the fans, because of the current trend of ignoring a game if it *isn't* hyped to 7th heaven -- then tearing it to shreds upon release.

 

Unlike movies, the community of fans has a more integral role in gaming.  So what this means is that tens of millions of dollars of production and all goes into a rat hole when the fans decide the game doesn't meet expectations.

 

If that happens to every launch on a regular basis, the AAA part of the game industry will fail.  Do the math, think like an investor.  

 

it's not just the suits, or just the fans, or just the devs.  It's a really really dysfunctional relationship, and somehow the feedback loop has to get broken and fixed or the whole industry is going into the crapper.

 
 

Maybe we should just let it go *shurgs*  Have a new Ice age, kill all the dinosaurs...let the small agile mammals take over (till they become content fat and lazy and they too die out)

No matter how cynical you become, its never enough to keep up - Lily Tomlin

  superniceguy

Elite Member

Joined: 2/17/07
Posts: 2277

NGE, LOTRO, STO, KOTOR, Lego Star Wars > NGE 2 (SWTOR). SWG>ALL. Above hopefully subject to change.

10/04/12 8:48:34 AM#45
Originally posted by Suzie_Ford

 

I played this new game recently. I won't say the name, but let's just note that I played it. I played it a lot and I liked it a lot. It was fully polished, it had modified questing in a way that, well, I didn't feel like I was questing, and when I got a fully leveled toon, the end game was so vast that I wasn't bored at all. The gear grind was actually enjoyable, there were very few bugs that I encountered, and the content in the game would rival the gigantic beast WoW has become over the past 7 years.

 

 

Minus the bit about being fully polished and there being very few bugs, that game was Star Wars Galaxies.

  phantomghost

Hard Core Member

Joined: 11/05/11
Posts: 635

"Kill me, my man kills you, that's how you lose."

10/04/12 9:16:59 AM#46
Originally posted by superniceguy
Originally posted by Suzie_Ford

 

I played this new game recently. I won't say the name, but let's just note that I played it. I played it a lot and I liked it a lot. It was fully polished, it had modified questing in a way that, well, I didn't feel like I was questing, and when I got a fully leveled toon, the end game was so vast that I wasn't bored at all. The gear grind was actually enjoyable, there were very few bugs that I encountered, and the content in the game would rival the gigantic beast WoW has become over the past 7 years.

 

 

Minus the bit about being fully polished and there being very few bugs, that game was Star Wars Galaxies.

SWG was very good game.  Not my favorite but I definitely enjoyed it a lot more than many (really all) recent games.

"I see they watchin' me and takin' notes on my moves, Run up on me it's all I want I ain't got nothin' to lose."

  Ozivois

Novice Member

Joined: 4/17/10
Posts: 600

10/04/12 4:36:09 PM#47

Strange article -- it sounds like a random thought expanded into several paragraphs with some advertisements stuck in the middle. 

If we lowered our expectations that we would simply stop buying MMO's.  It is our eagerness to find and play a fun MMO that lasts that brings us to this site and has us spending money on these games.  The developer's goals are the same as ours.

No we are not going to lower our expectations.  As a matter of fact, as technology improves our expectations just keep growing.

  IrishChai

Advanced Member

Joined: 1/31/11
Posts: 511

10/04/12 4:47:13 PM#48

 

I actually didn't think you (Pokket) were making that up at the beginning until I got to the next paragraph. Anyhow, I think it couldn't have been said better with just this one sentence; "Overhyping the next title, and having high expectations is what leads to disappointment."

 

I'm not trying to sell anything when I say that's the code of practice for many people around the world (not going to name the philosophy here). The point is it's completely possible to learn to respect the worth of something just as it is. It's a really simple idea. We have a pretty decent influence over our own perspective, so sometimes it just takes a bit of tweaking to enjoy what is given instead of looking for something we can't quite define or find.

 

Lots of games, books, and movies are enjoyed by millions all around the world. The material is not the only one to blame for our disappointment. How we interpret it makes a huge difference. Of course the interests and experiences we've developed all our life will stay a big part of that interpretation, but if we just can't enjoy anything anywhere than we are being our own worst enemy. There should be a middle-ground within all of us where we don't go around liking everything like we're on drugs, but we don't go around hating everything either. I just enjoy some of it, and pass on the rest for another to enjoy instead.

 

Basically, if we keep buying in to every game, book, or movie as possibly being 'the one', yet everything we experience ends up far from our expectations, than we probably need a reality check. I think it's more likely we are in the wrong hobby or need to get out more because there are those of us that really enjoy a lot of different things. The people that can't seem to enjoy anything need to learn from that.

  IrishChai

Advanced Member

Joined: 1/31/11
Posts: 511

10/04/12 4:52:24 PM#49
Originally posted by Ozivois

Strange article -- it sounds like a random thought expanded into several paragraphs with some advertisements stuck in the middle. 

If we lowered our expectations that we would simply stop buying MMO's.  It is our eagerness to find and play a fun MMO that lasts that brings us to this site and has us spending money on these games.  The developer's goals are the same as ours.

No we are not going to lower our expectations.  As a matter of fact, as technology improves our expectations just keep growing.

 

If your expectations are so high that everything fails, then you have a choice. Lower them or continue to walk around hating on everything because you are not seeing clearly. Of course our expectations grow over time and with new technology, but that doesn't mean expectations are in line with reality. Far too many people have a distorted view of reality, so there is a huge point to be made that sometimes our expectations are precisely the problem.

  erictlewis

Apprentice Member

Joined: 11/08/08
Posts: 3058

The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over while expecting different results.

10/04/12 5:03:45 PM#50

You know if game companies would not promise the sun, moon/ans stars maybe we would not learn to expect them.

Case in point swtor,  were going to have 2 years of content at release that was a lie,  were going to have 10 years worth of content another lie, were going to have 200+ planets another lie.   So where your told all these lies and you expect to get them and you don't then the game does not live up to the hype.

I could go on about what other games have promised I would be here for days compiling that last of hype/lies.

So yes it is not our fault, the game companies need to live up to what they promise.

  Dblstd

Novice Member

Joined: 10/04/12
Posts: 3

10/04/12 5:09:31 PM#51
Originally posted by Stevenra
I'm sorry but sites like this and any of the video game media is , at the very LEAST, partly to blame.  You, the industry media, who does not make clear that you will not give an actual true point of view of games instead of being so scared too offend a game developer that will pay your bills.  Until this trend of scratch my back i'll scratch yours stops we will never know just how bad a game is, going off of "professional" reviews.  Yes we do get, for the most part, beta entry into games ahead of launch but most of us only get those after preordering.  I think every article/advertisement for a game should be prefaced if that company has given your company anything.
 
 

So true, this site deserves a lot of the blame for throwing away all journalistic ethics and  working hand and foot with developers to  hype poorly made games to the extreme.

Beware, if you write thoughtful and critical posts of a game that this site receives advertising dollars from you may be banned. If you write senseless and substance less but positive posts you can engage in any type of bad behavior you want. If you help hype games and help this site make money by getting more page hits you can engage in name calling, personal attacks and get posts removed of those who are critical of a game that you like.

  Ozivois

Novice Member

Joined: 4/17/10
Posts: 600

10/04/12 5:09:32 PM#52
Originally posted by IrishChai
Originally posted by Ozivois

Strange article -- it sounds like a random thought expanded into several paragraphs with some advertisements stuck in the middle. 

If we lowered our expectations that we would simply stop buying MMO's.  It is our eagerness to find and play a fun MMO that lasts that brings us to this site and has us spending money on these games.  The developer's goals are the same as ours.

No we are not going to lower our expectations.  As a matter of fact, as technology improves our expectations just keep growing.

 

If your expectations are so high that everything fails, then you have a choice. Lower them or continue to walk around hating on everything because you are not seeing clearly. Of course our expectations grow over time and with new technology, but that doesn't mean expectations are in line with reality. Far too many people have a distorted view of reality, so there is a huge point to be made that sometimes our expectations are precisely the problem.

Lowering my expectations is not a choice, it never is.  But my expectations are reasonable and I would hazard to guess that most MMO players' expectations are also pretty reasonable.

  User Deleted
10/04/12 5:14:36 PM#53

interesting, two things. A game that's new, that makes you feel like you're not questing when you are, and that has a vast end game and an easily tolerable gear grind.....GW2? because i'm pretty sure she's not talking about the other titles out there. 

I do agree that it can be the suits in that they force a release too early, but that can't be the end all be all of the blame game. You see. the Devs decide notably the lead devs, what kind of game this game will be. They have meetings, they have the huge wall of crazy so to speak, they have long hours of design before they begin coding or doing the graphics. When you design a crappy lobby game with grandiose claims of doing things in a new way that no one else has done before and then you release a title that is almost identicle to the concepts found in the first release of World of Warcraft. That's not a problem with the suits....that's a problem with the devs, so that argument isn't universally accepted.

  IrishChai

Advanced Member

Joined: 1/31/11
Posts: 511

10/04/12 5:23:07 PM#54
Originally posted by Ozivois
Originally posted by IrishChai
Originally posted by Ozivois

Strange article -- it sounds like a random thought expanded into several paragraphs with some advertisements stuck in the middle. 

If we lowered our expectations that we would simply stop buying MMO's.  It is our eagerness to find and play a fun MMO that lasts that brings us to this site and has us spending money on these games.  The developer's goals are the same as ours.

No we are not going to lower our expectations.  As a matter of fact, as technology improves our expectations just keep growing.

 

If your expectations are so high that everything fails, then you have a choice. Lower them or continue to walk around hating on everything because you are not seeing clearly. Of course our expectations grow over time and with new technology, but that doesn't mean expectations are in line with reality. Far too many people have a distorted view of reality, so there is a huge point to be made that sometimes our expectations are precisely the problem.

Lowering my expectations is not a choice, it never is.  But my expectations are reasonable and I would hazard to guess that most MMO players' expectations are also pretty reasonable.

 

That's just plain stubborness. Everyone is capable of adjusting their expectations to meet reality when you're just way off center. I know a lot of people that not only choose their level of expectation, but choose whether or not to have any expectation at all, about everything. I'm not judging whether your expectations are reasonable, nor am I in a position to personally judge that about anyone else, but that's a very easy thing to adjust.

  Wraithone

Hard Core Member

Joined: 7/09/04
Posts: 3565

If you can't kill it, don't make it mad.

10/04/12 5:30:02 PM#55
Originally posted by Ozivois
Originally posted by IrishChai
Originally posted by Ozivois

Strange article -- it sounds like a random thought expanded into several paragraphs with some advertisements stuck in the middle. 

If we lowered our expectations that we would simply stop buying MMO's.  It is our eagerness to find and play a fun MMO that lasts that brings us to this site and has us spending money on these games.  The developer's goals are the same as ours.

No we are not going to lower our expectations.  As a matter of fact, as technology improves our expectations just keep growing.

 

If your expectations are so high that everything fails, then you have a choice. Lower them or continue to walk around hating on everything because you are not seeing clearly. Of course our expectations grow over time and with new technology, but that doesn't mean expectations are in line with reality. Far too many people have a distorted view of reality, so there is a huge point to be made that sometimes our expectations are precisely the problem.

Lowering my expectations is not a choice, it never is.  But my expectations are reasonable and I would hazard to guess that most MMO players' expectations are also pretty reasonable.

"Reasonable" in terms of what?  Given many peoples expectations/projections, not to mention the hype machine, reasonable is the last word I'd use for all too many people.  

This ties in with what I've called The One True Game(tm) syndrome, for years now.  No actual game, will ever be able to match up to many peoples expectations/projections.  Its just not possible.  

Thats why The One True Game(tm) is always just beyond the horizon, and any actually existing game, disappoints the True Believers, who then drop it in favor of yet another game, thats just beyond the horizon.  Repeat this process, until the players involved either turn cynical and bitter (which makes it even more unlikely they will find what they seek), or they wise up. 

I gave up looking for The One True Game(tm) years ago. These days, all I look for is games that are entertaining. 

  IrishChai

Advanced Member

Joined: 1/31/11
Posts: 511

10/04/12 5:40:05 PM#56
Originally posted by Wraithone
Originally posted by Ozivois
Originally posted by IrishChai
Originally posted by Ozivois

Strange article -- it sounds like a random thought expanded into several paragraphs with some advertisements stuck in the middle. 

If we lowered our expectations that we would simply stop buying MMO's.  It is our eagerness to find and play a fun MMO that lasts that brings us to this site and has us spending money on these games.  The developer's goals are the same as ours.

No we are not going to lower our expectations.  As a matter of fact, as technology improves our expectations just keep growing.

 

If your expectations are so high that everything fails, then you have a choice. Lower them or continue to walk around hating on everything because you are not seeing clearly. Of course our expectations grow over time and with new technology, but that doesn't mean expectations are in line with reality. Far too many people have a distorted view of reality, so there is a huge point to be made that sometimes our expectations are precisely the problem.

Lowering my expectations is not a choice, it never is.  But my expectations are reasonable and I would hazard to guess that most MMO players' expectations are also pretty reasonable.

"Reasonable" in terms of what?  Given many peoples expectations/projections, not to mention the hype machine, reasonable is the last word I'd use for all too many people.  

This ties in with what I've called The One True Game(tm) syndrome, for years now.  No actual game, will ever be able to match up to many peoples expectations/projections.  Its just not possible.  

Thats why The One True Game(tm) is always just beyond the horizon, and any actually existing game, disappoints the True Believers, who then drop it in favor of yet another game, thats just beyond the horizon.  Repeat this process, until the players involved either turn cynical and bitter (which makes it even more unlikely they will find what they seek), or they wise up. 

I gave up looking for The One True Game(tm) years ago. These days, all I look for is games that are entertaining. 

 

Yeah, this is exactly my point. We can see when our expectations are just silly and out of line with reality, even if it takes awhile to do so. (Just talking about me here - not pointing a finger) I mainly just look for entertainment now too, and there is a lot of great entertainment out there. I have a few hopes placed on a couple games, but it's much better than it was, and I think they are very reasonable.

 

I don't know how or when that One True Game syndrome developed, but it definitely caught hold of a lot of MMO fans and is out of control in some people. Life in general is a much better place when you don't place crazy expectations on everything. The smallest things can be pretty remarkable when we are given an experience with no expectations.

  GrayGhost79

Novice Member

Joined: 8/30/08
Posts: 4888

10/04/12 6:43:49 PM#57
Originally posted by Wraithone
Originally posted by Ozivois
Originally posted by IrishChai
Originally posted by Ozivois

Strange article -- it sounds like a random thought expanded into several paragraphs with some advertisements stuck in the middle. 

If we lowered our expectations that we would simply stop buying MMO's.  It is our eagerness to find and play a fun MMO that lasts that brings us to this site and has us spending money on these games.  The developer's goals are the same as ours.

No we are not going to lower our expectations.  As a matter of fact, as technology improves our expectations just keep growing.

 

If your expectations are so high that everything fails, then you have a choice. Lower them or continue to walk around hating on everything because you are not seeing clearly. Of course our expectations grow over time and with new technology, but that doesn't mean expectations are in line with reality. Far too many people have a distorted view of reality, so there is a huge point to be made that sometimes our expectations are precisely the problem.

Lowering my expectations is not a choice, it never is.  But my expectations are reasonable and I would hazard to guess that most MMO players' expectations are also pretty reasonable.

"Reasonable" in terms of what?  Given many peoples expectations/projections, not to mention the hype machine, reasonable is the last word I'd use for all too many people.  

This ties in with what I've called The One True Game(tm) syndrome, for years now.  No actual game, will ever be able to match up to many peoples expectations/projections.  Its just not possible.  

Thats why The One True Game(tm) is always just beyond the horizon, and any actually existing game, disappoints the True Believers, who then drop it in favor of yet another game, thats just beyond the horizon.  Repeat this process, until the players involved either turn cynical and bitter (which makes it even more unlikely they will find what they seek), or they wise up. 

I gave up looking for The One True Game(tm) years ago. These days, all I look for is games that are entertaining. 

Reasonable Expectation 1) Focus resources on development and quality assurance rather than sinking a great deal into advertising early on. After the game has been released and polished further then focus efforts on advertising and mass marketing.

Reasonable Expectation 2) Hold release until it's release ready. Minor bugs are fine but game breaking issues are not.

Reasonable Expectation 3) If you are expecting people to stay and pay for 6 months to a year then there needs to be 6 months to a years worth of enjoyable unique content.

Reasonable Expectation 4) Don't lie to your fan base and do not wait last minute to inform everyone a promised or hyped/promoted feature got cut months ago.

Reasonable Expectation 5) Listen to your player base and if you can't do that do not blame them when a change or addition to the game caused a lot to leave. It isn't our fault your game failed, we aren't to blame. You failed to deliver a product that kept us entertained and it is your fault.

Here's 5 very common reasonable expectations. These are all completely possible and they are reasonable. Lowering expectations further is simply not an option. Many of us have already lowered our expectations, no longer are we expecting MMO's to be virtual worlds like they started out as. I simply can not lower them further without leaving the genre all together. That slippery slope will lead to nothing good for gamers. "Oh it's okay, the game only works 3 days a week and theres only about a weeks worth of content but I had low expectations to begin with...." Yeah I'll pass.

  IrishChai

Advanced Member

Joined: 1/31/11
Posts: 511

10/04/12 8:13:45 PM#58
Originally posted by GrayGhost79
Originally posted by Wraithone
Originally posted by Ozivois
Originally posted by IrishChai
Originally posted by Ozivois

Strange article -- it sounds like a random thought expanded into several paragraphs with some advertisements stuck in the middle. 

If we lowered our expectations that we would simply stop buying MMO's.  It is our eagerness to find and play a fun MMO that lasts that brings us to this site and has us spending money on these games.  The developer's goals are the same as ours.

No we are not going to lower our expectations.  As a matter of fact, as technology improves our expectations just keep growing.

 

If your expectations are so high that everything fails, then you have a choice. Lower them or continue to walk around hating on everything because you are not seeing clearly. Of course our expectations grow over time and with new technology, but that doesn't mean expectations are in line with reality. Far too many people have a distorted view of reality, so there is a huge point to be made that sometimes our expectations are precisely the problem.

Lowering my expectations is not a choice, it never is.  But my expectations are reasonable and I would hazard to guess that most MMO players' expectations are also pretty reasonable.

"Reasonable" in terms of what?  Given many peoples expectations/projections, not to mention the hype machine, reasonable is the last word I'd use for all too many people.  

This ties in with what I've called The One True Game(tm) syndrome, for years now.  No actual game, will ever be able to match up to many peoples expectations/projections.  Its just not possible.  

Thats why The One True Game(tm) is always just beyond the horizon, and any actually existing game, disappoints the True Believers, who then drop it in favor of yet another game, thats just beyond the horizon.  Repeat this process, until the players involved either turn cynical and bitter (which makes it even more unlikely they will find what they seek), or they wise up. 

I gave up looking for The One True Game(tm) years ago. These days, all I look for is games that are entertaining. 

Reasonable Expectation 1) Focus resources on development and quality assurance rather than sinking a great deal into advertising early on. After the game has been released and polished further then focus efforts on advertising and mass marketing.

Not spending a great deal on advertising and mass marketing until after a game releases is just dumb. Can't even believe you said that. Maybe you can explain what you mean by that, because it's just plain bizarre to me and would get you fired from marketing immediately if it was for any of the companies I've worked for... You probably wouldn't make it in the front door though with that perspective. Moving on...

Reasonable Expectation 2) Hold release until it's release ready. Minor bugs are fine but game breaking issues are not.

That's very debatable in the details with any release. This just goes back to how much you place in your expectations, because that can still be a very low or very high expectation depending on those little details. Some people make a mountain out of a mole hill way too often.

Reasonable Expectation 3) If you are expecting people to stay and pay for 6 months to a year then there needs to be 6 months to a years worth of enjoyable unique content.

The irony is funny here... "If you are expecting...". Right. You're telling them not to expect people to stay and pay if their idea of enough content doesn't meet your expectations..  but you can't ever change your expectations... but they should? ... wow

Reasonable Expectation 4) Don't lie to your fan base and do not wait last minute to inform everyone a promised or hyped/promoted feature got cut months ago.

You just don't know what you're talking about here. A lot of little things can change unexpectedly in development. Everyone in the company doesn't have a crystal ball to guarantee everything they say is, and always will be, eternal factual detail implemented exactly as they say it would. I think they expect the fanbase to be a little more intelligent than calling them liars when things didn't go exactly as planned. I don't know if that is more unreasonable expectation by you, them, or a bit of both, but it sure as hell doesn't make them liars. They do what they can to tell players what they want to do with the game. It's plain unreasonable to call them liars for not foreseeing the future and coming back to tell you only the proven details of future content only if and when they have that foresight to guarantee everything they say..

 

Reasonable Expectation 5) Listen to your player base and if you can't do that do not blame them when a change or addition to the game caused a lot to leave. It isn't our fault your game failed, we aren't to blame. You failed to deliver a product that kept us entertained and it is your fault.

Here's 5 very common reasonable expectations. These are all completely possible and they are reasonable. Lowering expectations further is simply not an option. Many of us have already lowered our expectations, no longer are we expecting MMO's to be virtual worlds like they started out as. I simply can not lower them further without leaving the genre all together. That slippery slope will lead to nothing good for gamers. "Oh it's okay, the game only works 3 days a week and theres only about a weeks worth of content but I had low expectations to begin with...." Yeah I'll pass.

 

Expectation 5 is normal, so at least you're 1 for 5 in my book. I think that's obvious to most developers though. 

 

So no, they are not all completely reasonable, and even if nobody agrees with my reasons for it, they are obviously debatable to different degrees and for different reasons. That makes them expectations that can and will differ between fans. These are expectations that can be changed to give the game more credit than it is getting, whatever that game may be, which is the only point I really care about.

  GrayGhost79

Novice Member

Joined: 8/30/08
Posts: 4888

10/05/12 3:05:26 AM#59
Originally posted by IrishChai
Originally posted by GrayGhost79
Originally posted by Wraithone
Originally posted by Ozivois
Originally posted by IrishChai
Originally posted by Ozivois

Strange article -- it sounds like a random thought expanded into several paragraphs with some advertisements stuck in the middle. 

If we lowered our expectations that we would simply stop buying MMO's.  It is our eagerness to find and play a fun MMO that lasts that brings us to this site and has us spending money on these games.  The developer's goals are the same as ours.

No we are not going to lower our expectations.  As a matter of fact, as technology improves our expectations just keep growing.

 

If your expectations are so high that everything fails, then you have a choice. Lower them or continue to walk around hating on everything because you are not seeing clearly. Of course our expectations grow over time and with new technology, but that doesn't mean expectations are in line with reality. Far too many people have a distorted view of reality, so there is a huge point to be made that sometimes our expectations are precisely the problem.

Lowering my expectations is not a choice, it never is.  But my expectations are reasonable and I would hazard to guess that most MMO players' expectations are also pretty reasonable.

"Reasonable" in terms of what?  Given many peoples expectations/projections, not to mention the hype machine, reasonable is the last word I'd use for all too many people.  

This ties in with what I've called The One True Game(tm) syndrome, for years now.  No actual game, will ever be able to match up to many peoples expectations/projections.  Its just not possible.  

Thats why The One True Game(tm) is always just beyond the horizon, and any actually existing game, disappoints the True Believers, who then drop it in favor of yet another game, thats just beyond the horizon.  Repeat this process, until the players involved either turn cynical and bitter (which makes it even more unlikely they will find what they seek), or they wise up. 

I gave up looking for The One True Game(tm) years ago. These days, all I look for is games that are entertaining. 

Reasonable Expectation 1) Focus resources on development and quality assurance rather than sinking a great deal into advertising early on. After the game has been released and polished further then focus efforts on advertising and mass marketing.

Not spending a great deal on advertising and mass marketing until after a game releases is just dumb. Can't even believe you said that. Maybe you can explain what you mean by that, because it's just plain bizarre to me and would get you fired from marketing immediately if it was for any of the companies I've worked for... You probably wouldn't make it in the front door though with that perspective. Moving on...

Reasonable Expectation 2) Hold release until it's release ready. Minor bugs are fine but game breaking issues are not.

That's very debatable in the details with any release. This just goes back to how much you place in your expectations, because that can still be a very low or very high expectation depending on those little details. Some people make a mountain out of a mole hill way too often.

Reasonable Expectation 3) If you are expecting people to stay and pay for 6 months to a year then there needs to be 6 months to a years worth of enjoyable unique content.

The irony is funny here... "If you are expecting...". Right. You're telling them not to expect people to stay and pay if their idea of enough content doesn't meet your expectations..  but you can't ever change your expectations... but they should? ... wow

Reasonable Expectation 4) Don't lie to your fan base and do not wait last minute to inform everyone a promised or hyped/promoted feature got cut months ago.

You just don't know what you're talking about here. A lot of little things can change unexpectedly in development. Everyone in the company doesn't have a crystal ball to guarantee everything they say is, and always will be, eternal factual detail implemented exactly as they say it would. I think they expect the fanbase to be a little more intelligent than calling them liars when things didn't go exactly as planned. I don't know if that is more unreasonable expectation by you, them, or a bit of both, but it sure as hell doesn't make them liars. They do what they can to tell players what they want to do with the game. It's plain unreasonable to call them liars for not foreseeing the future and coming back to tell you only the proven details of future content only if and when they have that foresight to guarantee everything they say..

 

Reasonable Expectation 5) Listen to your player base and if you can't do that do not blame them when a change or addition to the game caused a lot to leave. It isn't our fault your game failed, we aren't to blame. You failed to deliver a product that kept us entertained and it is your fault.

Here's 5 very common reasonable expectations. These are all completely possible and they are reasonable. Lowering expectations further is simply not an option. Many of us have already lowered our expectations, no longer are we expecting MMO's to be virtual worlds like they started out as. I simply can not lower them further without leaving the genre all together. That slippery slope will lead to nothing good for gamers. "Oh it's okay, the game only works 3 days a week and theres only about a weeks worth of content but I had low expectations to begin with...." Yeah I'll pass.

 

Expectation 5 is normal, so at least you're 1 for 5 in my book. I think that's obvious to most developers though. 

 

So no, they are not all completely reasonable, and even if nobody agrees with my reasons for it, they are obviously debatable to different degrees and for different reasons. That makes them expectations that can and will differ between fans. These are expectations that can be changed to give the game more credit than it is getting, whatever that game may be, which is the only point I really care about.

1)   Sure... the game isn't running very well yet, we haven't finished a lot of the content that was planned and stated to be in game at launch but... our best move is to start paying out the arse to get a Superbowl commercial? I'll have to disagree with you there. I'm not saying do no advertising. What I'm saying is hold off on excessive advertising until AFTER you've insured you have a decent game. This benefits all parties involved. Sorry, there is plenty of examples of why excessive marketing prior to release and polish is extremely bad. Look at the retention rate and how the community responds to these kinds of releases.

2)   Age of Conan had people falling through the world, MO had the same and had people losing items that they did not compensate. How many games have launched with major issues that caused the game to be completely unplayable or an exercise in complete frustration? Hey, maybe if they didn't sink so much into marketing and advertising so early in the development cycle they may have had the budget to get these things ironed out before launch.

3)  Again, especially in the case of a pay to play they are expecting and counting on players staying beyond the first month for continued revenue. I can lower my expectations if you want and go in with the idea in my head that I'm only going to be playing for a month and burn through what content is there so that I can call it done before that month is up. Personally I think to many do that already, the last thing I think is needed is for even more to lower their expectations and follow suite because face it... if we all did that then pay to plays would die.

4) Hopefully you understood that I listed multiple different issues here and grouped them together because of the similarities between the issues. Lieing is a different issue than cutting content, mechanics or features. We will break it down.

Lieing - Fudging subscriber numbers, Lieing about the state of the game, Altering the server load indicators so that they show a tier or two higher than they are. I mean for the love of gaming I'm sick of the Smedley's, NPCubes, Henriks, I forget the original lead developer of AoC but him as well. Be transparant with your community and about your game. Lieing about such things will simply drive even more away.

Cutting Content, Mechanics, and Features - When it's decided inform your community, don't make a post in some obscure place 3 days before launch, actually tell us when you've decided to cut or remove it. Let us know why. Again be transparant.

 

 

My expectations won't lower further than they already have. What will happen is I will simply leave the game and not look back which is what many if not most do now and this horrendous rentention rate which has forced pretty much every MMO release these past few years to switch to a f2p model and hope that they can survive.

 

 

  Kyleran

Bitter Vet™

Joined: 9/13/06
Posts: 18993

Fools find no pleasure in understanding, but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV

10/05/12 5:45:43 AM#60
Originally posted by Wraithone
Originally posted by Ozivois
Originally posted by IrishChai
Originally posted by Ozivois

Strange article -- it sounds like a random thought expanded into several paragraphs with some advertisements stuck in the middle. 

If we lowered our expectations that we would simply stop buying MMO's.  It is our eagerness to find and play a fun MMO that lasts that brings us to this site and has us spending money on these games.  The developer's goals are the same as ours.

No we are not going to lower our expectations.  As a matter of fact, as technology improves our expectations just keep growing.

 

If your expectations are so high that everything fails, then you have a choice. Lower them or continue to walk around hating on everything because you are not seeing clearly. Of course our expectations grow over time and with new technology, but that doesn't mean expectations are in line with reality. Far too many people have a distorted view of reality, so there is a huge point to be made that sometimes our expectations are precisely the problem.

Lowering my expectations is not a choice, it never is.  But my expectations are reasonable and I would hazard to guess that most MMO players' expectations are also pretty reasonable.

"Reasonable" in terms of what?  Given many peoples expectations/projections, not to mention the hype machine, reasonable is the last word I'd use for all too many people.  

This ties in with what I've called The One True Game(tm) syndrome, for years now.  No actual game, will ever be able to match up to many peoples expectations/projections.  Its just not possible.  

Thats why The One True Game(tm) is always just beyond the horizon, and any actually existing game, disappoints the True Believers, who then drop it in favor of yet another game, thats just beyond the horizon.  Repeat this process, until the players involved either turn cynical and bitter (which makes it even more unlikely they will find what they seek), or they wise up. 

I gave up looking for The One True Game(tm) years ago. These days, all I look for is games that are entertaining

You actually manage to find anything out there?  Outside of a month or three, I haven't found a decent title in 6 years, outside of EVE of course.

It  might help if most MMO's didn't follow a very similar development path, (you know the one), perhaps the folks who are unsatisfied with it would relish the opportunity to play a game with features more to their liking.

I've stopped the madness, no longer going to support titles that I'm sure are not going to yield the long term playing experience I'm looking for.

 

"In these forums 'honest' seems to be a symonym for 'hates the game just like I do'" - ohioastro
Kyleran - Bitter Vet ™ since 2006
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon

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