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Guild Wars 2

Guild Wars 2 

General Discussion  » DR hitting the players

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137 posts found
  Terranah

Apprentice Member

Joined: 7/03/04
Posts: 3612

10/04/12 9:35:58 AM#101
Originally posted by Bynt
Originally posted by Terranah
Go on and on for four paragraphs and you couldn't take the time to define what the frack DR is? 

DR = Diminishing Returns.  For example, if a lvl 80 event in cursed shore rewards 378 Karma for Gold Status.  With Diminishing Returns, you get 302 karma after the first hit and it falls fast to like 19 karma at bottom?  Not sure what bottom is now with Oct 1 patch.  Basically, ArenaNet puts a cap or limit on how much karma you can make, before they have identified you as a botting player and taken punitive action against you.   

I'm just glad I farmed the last bit of Karma I needed last week because htis week I wouldn't be able to farm so fast and I'm glad i'm done heh.

Cheers

Edit:  Btw, forgot to mention, last week the Karma Cap before DR hit you was around 20K karma, then they changed it down to 10K karam.  With a 50% karma booster, I was easily having to relog every hour or less because of this.  Stinks they put such huge amount of karma you need to the armor then won't let you get it in a timely fashion.  Not sure how long the karma cap is now with the Oct 1 past.  my 2 cents.

 Thanks for defining that.  The concept of DR is repugnant, but the amount seems reasonable at least.  I have been playing since launch 3 + hours a day and only have 5k Karma saved up.  Granted I have not been running many public quests lately, but 10k per day sounds okay for most players. 

  Yamota

Elite Member

Joined: 10/05/03
Posts: 6492

"Only cunts name their swords"

10/04/12 9:41:53 AM#102
Originally posted by Volkon
Originally posted by BadSpock

Sounds like patch today fixed some bugs with DR triggering too early/soon.

But this is life - and it is also war.

War against bots, spammers, hackers, cheaters...

The innocent always suffer in war.

If YOU can't farm the same dungeon or DE chain over and over legitimately, but at the same time if an automated BOT or gold farmer working with compromised accounts is stopped because of it - I'm all for it.

That whole "those who give up freedom for security deserve neither" or whatever quote is unrealistic, niave bullshit.

 

Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety. - Benjamin Franklin

 

It's a good quote, and intact and in context it makes perfect sense. However sliced apart then applied to a game, yeah, it's a load of crap.

It is an awesome quote which unfourtunately does not show its true meaning when a free an open system becomes totalitarian and counterproductive to what it claimed to do. E.g. to implement stringent security to protect your freedom just to have it destroying freedom more than whatever perceived threat it was protecting from.

For me this anti farming and DR mechanics is just a simple and bad solution for a complex problem. If they had an AI that was not so predictable and easy to beat, you would not have so many bots. But creating a great AI is expensive...

Likewise if there was enough content beside karma grinding, at high levels, people wouldnt be grinding it. But again, creating end game content is expensive...

  botrytis

Advanced Member

Joined: 1/04/05
Posts: 2445

10/04/12 9:47:43 AM#103
Originally posted by Yamota
Originally posted by Volkon
Originally posted by BadSpock

Sounds like patch today fixed some bugs with DR triggering too early/soon.

But this is life - and it is also war.

War against bots, spammers, hackers, cheaters...

The innocent always suffer in war.

If YOU can't farm the same dungeon or DE chain over and over legitimately, but at the same time if an automated BOT or gold farmer working with compromised accounts is stopped because of it - I'm all for it.

That whole "those who give up freedom for security deserve neither" or whatever quote is unrealistic, niave bullshit.

 

Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety. - Benjamin Franklin

 

It's a good quote, and intact and in context it makes perfect sense. However sliced apart then applied to a game, yeah, it's a load of crap.

It is an awesome quote which unfourtunately does not show its true meaning when a free an open system becomes totalitarian and counterproductive to what it claimed to do. E.g. to implement stringent security to protect your freedom just to have it destroying freedom more than whatever perceived threat it was protecting from.

For me this anti farming and DR mechanics is just a simple and bad solution for a complex problem. If they had an AI that was not so predictable and easy to beat, you would not have so many bots. But creating a great AI is expensive...

They used in GW1 and people did complain at first but learned to  work within the system and the game went on.

 

The AI is not predictable as in Rift and other games. Also, the spawns seem really random (notice I said seems).  The trick is, there are certain places spawns don't happen and that is what botting uses.

"In 50 years, when I talk to my grandchildren about these days, I'll make sure to mention what an accomplished MMO player I was. They are going to be so proud ..."
by Naqaj - 7/17/2013 MMORPG.com forum

  Xzen

Novice Member

Joined: 5/01/06
Posts: 2637

A sword is never a killer, it is a tool in the killer's hands.
- Seneca

10/04/12 9:52:07 AM#104
Originally posted by botrytis
Originally posted by Yamota
Originally posted by Volkon
Originally posted by BadSpock

Sounds like patch today fixed some bugs with DR triggering too early/soon.

But this is life - and it is also war.

War against bots, spammers, hackers, cheaters...

The innocent always suffer in war.

If YOU can't farm the same dungeon or DE chain over and over legitimately, but at the same time if an automated BOT or gold farmer working with compromised accounts is stopped because of it - I'm all for it.

That whole "those who give up freedom for security deserve neither" or whatever quote is unrealistic, niave bullshit.

 

Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety. - Benjamin Franklin

 

It's a good quote, and intact and in context it makes perfect sense. However sliced apart then applied to a game, yeah, it's a load of crap.

It is an awesome quote which unfourtunately does not show its true meaning when a free an open system becomes totalitarian and counterproductive to what it claimed to do. E.g. to implement stringent security to protect your freedom just to have it destroying freedom more than whatever perceived threat it was protecting from.

For me this anti farming and DR mechanics is just a simple and bad solution for a complex problem. If they had an AI that was not so predictable and easy to beat, you would not have so many bots. But creating a great AI is expensive...

They used in GW1 and people did complain at first but learned to  work within the system and the game went on.

 

The AI is not predictable as in Rift and other games. Also, the spawns seem really random (notice I said seems).  The trick is, there are certain places spawns don't happen and that is what botting uses.

I've seen this a few times however I have farmed feathers and hero armor items in GW1 for hours and hours and never experienced it.

  Rhianni32

Novice Member

Joined: 3/23/10
Posts: 223

10/04/12 12:38:14 PM#105
Originally posted by cahenderson
Originally posted by Rhianni32
Originally posted by Carnafex

The problem is that unless Anet has a full disclosure on the rules that come into play to invoke the DR/anti-bot code people will assume a run of crappy drops is being influenced by the code; when it may well be just bad luck.  Full disclosure is obviously counter-productive for influencing bots, so their best bet is to eliminate the code altogether.   Otherwise the continual whining will just get worse. 

This is exactly it. I love reading the "I played for 1 hour and was hit with DR!" Oh so you saw a big red siren and warning message go off to tell you that?

I wouldn't be surprised to read a lvl 5 only got 1 yellow ring for good loot so its obviously DR... stupid ANet!

During the "we know it's bugged -ArenaNet" phase, people were getting "This content has been temporarily disabled" messages. Big red messages that said "This content has been temporarily disabled".

You are saying that players go up to do a DE or dungeon. Run it a few times. Then when the DE starts over or they try to run another dungeon they are blocked with "content is disabled"?

People here and elsewhere are complaining about the rewards for action not being denied completely. I think we are talking about two different things.

  Amana

MMORPG.COM Staff

Joined: 1/03/11
Posts: 2327

10/04/12 12:55:21 PM#106

Hi guys,  if you see someone potentially baiting an argument, especially an off-topic one, it's better to not respond and derail the thread. 

 

Thanks.

To give feedback on moderation, contact community@mmorpg.com

  JoeyMMO

Advanced Member

Joined: 10/09/11
Posts: 1315

To busy playing GW2 to post much around here... *shrug*

10/04/12 2:15:37 PM#107
This could happen to you if you're really farming an area, but if you're moving around, playing, roaming then I haven't seen much evidence of Diminishing Returns. Still it's possible it hits some people too soon, but it's probably to counter bots. If it is set to counter bots however, it would make sence to diminish the gold (or silver) reward the hardest, since this is what botters are after.

  Espion

Advanced Member

Joined: 6/24/06
Posts: 53

10/04/12 2:22:44 PM#108
edit
  Espion

Advanced Member

Joined: 6/24/06
Posts: 53

10/04/12 2:24:35 PM#109
Originally posted by Volkon
Originally posted by BadSpock

Sounds like patch today fixed some bugs with DR triggering too early/soon.

But this is life - and it is also war.

War against bots, spammers, hackers, cheaters...

The innocent always suffer in war.

If YOU can't farm the same dungeon or DE chain over and over legitimately, but at the same time if an automated BOT or gold farmer working with compromised accounts is stopped because of it - I'm all for it.

That whole "those who give up freedom for security deserve neither" or whatever quote is unrealistic, niave bullshit.

 

Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety. - Benjamin Franklin

 

It's a good quote, and intact and in context it makes perfect sense. However sliced apart then applied to a game, yeah, it's a load of crap.

I just wish the American people would have remembered that quote about 11 yrs ago.

 

  ste2000

Apprentice Member

Joined: 2/28/04
Posts: 4718

10/04/12 2:44:51 PM#110

OK a couple of things:

1) I believe it is wrong putting any kind of restriction on Events.

Karma do not interest gold farmers, since the items you get are BoP (Bind on Pickup)

 

2) Having said that I have no problem in farming Events.

Actually, if you are clever, by moving from Event to Event you can farm Karma very fast, much faster than sitting on the same spot.

I can farm up to 10K  Karma per hour from the same 5 Events which spawn minutes away from each other.

The DR system is designed to avoid sitting on the same spot the whole day like Bots do, it is not designed t stop genuine players to farm Events all day long if they wish to do so (like I do).

 

So IMO the DR system in GW2 is a non-issue.

  Digna

Novice Member

Joined: 11/19/05
Posts: 2006

The pen is mightier than the sword if the sword is very short, and the pen is very sharp.

10/04/12 2:53:45 PM#111

The  bots remain even after days and report upon report. The DR is affect legit players more then the bots.

Example: Last week I went to an area to farm blood vials. Took me maybe 90 mins (+/- 10 mins) but I had enough to craft all the items required for me to 1) wear and 2) boost my crafting to the next tier. I think I needed 48 blood (8 per item) and I ended up with 53 in that time frame. If I had 'insta-bought' on the TP, I would have spent 48 silver. So I saved myself (approx. 53 silver) some cash, picked up maybe 10-12 silver in random drops and maybe another 3 or 4 silver in blue crafting items I wasn't specifically looking for. Cal it 69 silver worth for 90 minutes and you get 33 silver per 30 mins.

Today I went back to get more blood vials so I could level up a 2nd craft. I was there for 30 mins. I had exactly 2 blood drops. Those were in the 1st 6-8 kills. After that, I had perhaps 5-7 grey (junk) items. Then nothing. 5-6 kills and a grey junk item. After the half hour I had maybe 12 grey items @ less than 1.5 silver, my 2 huge blood vial drops and a couple of white junk items , maybe 1 - 1.5 silver. At this point we're being generous at 5 silver. With the big kick in the pants being not enough mats to even craft a single item.

 

The devs have said this DR was not to stop bots. Which is good because it isn't. What it IS doing is forcing casual players to buy from the TP. We should not be told how/when/where to play to avoid the DR hammer. That said, if they told us what the threshold was - 8 mobs in 2 mins or perhaps 10 mobs in the field of vision of the character ( I am exaggerating a bit), or even what the bloodly lockout timer is  the legit players could avoid the hammer. 

If I am forced to go to the TP, I am done with crafting. I'll finish off my one 'main' and screw the rest.  I am not going to waste my time zone jumping to kill 10 - 12 mobs before a lockout only to have to jump zones again to find a mob that drops that same mats, rinse and repeat.

 

I really like gW2 w but this is getting seriously cocked up :/

  evolver1972

Novice Member

Joined: 3/18/11
Posts: 1126

What is "real"? How do you define "real"?

10/04/12 3:26:27 PM#112

For those who think Anet is just blowing the topic off and not bothering to respond and thereby waging war on its fanbase:

 

From Jon Peters (taken from the official forum thread on this topic):

 

We thought we should put in our 2 cents as well.

Guild Wars 2 is a game about freedom. We want you to be able to explore the world and engage in a huge variety of activities, focusing on whatever best suits your tastes.

Some players have run into “diminishing returns” thresholds we put into the game to provide a safety net against unanticipated economy-breaking issues. We do have these thresholds in place, but it’s not our intention that normal players should ever run into them. We’ve recently had bugs and imbalances that have caused normal players to hit thresholds, and we’ll fix those.

These systems are put in place to protect the economy from botters and exploiters. We will close exploits as quickly as we can. These thresholds help create a safety net to keep the economy safe when we aren’t there to deal with the offender. It’s important to have a safety net in place. It would be bad for everyone if, for example, a group of players learned how to speed-clear a dungeon in 5 minutes, with full rewards each time, and then repeated that continuously. When one activity emerges that’s order of magnitudes more profitable than anything else in the game, it forces everyone to either engage in that activity or get priced out of the economy.

While we need a safety net to stop unanticipated economy-breaking exploits and botting, we have no desire to stop farming. Farmers are a part every online economy and when they are doing normal game activity they do not cause any harm. If a player finds a normal game activity fun and would like to keep doing it, that’s fine with us.

Initially we have to rely on smaller data sets, instinct and some guesswork to find the correct cutoff. What this means is that some players are going to bump into the edges of these systems for a while as we get them sorted out. Please bear with us while we gather more data and lower the safety net until it’s only providing critical economy protection. Looking at the numbers this morning, we believe some of the threshold systems are just too harsh empirically and we’ll be adjusting those systems within the next few weeks to ensure that fewer legitimate players are being impacted.

I hope this helps to explain why a game like this needs systems such as this to protect its economy. I also hope it gives some insight into our philosophy about botters (BAD) and exploiters (BAD) vs. farmers (GOOD). Thanks for your support and we will see you in game.

Jon

 

Here's the entire thread.  Jon's response is on page 5.

 
 
So, they are looking into it and are already planning on changing it.  Patience people!  Remember, the game is only a month old.  And yes, broken things are really annoying, but I'm confident they are being addressed as quickly as possible.

You want me to pay to play a game I already paid for???

Be afraid.....The dragons are HERE!

  User Deleted
10/04/12 6:42:17 PM#113
Originally posted by Terranah
Originally posted by Bynt
Originally posted by Terranah
Go on and on for four paragraphs and you couldn't take the time to define what the frack DR is? 

DR = Diminishing Returns.  For example, if a lvl 80 event in cursed shore rewards 378 Karma for Gold Status.  With Diminishing Returns, you get 302 karma after the first hit and it falls fast to like 19 karma at bottom?  Not sure what bottom is now with Oct 1 patch.  Basically, ArenaNet puts a cap or limit on how much karma you can make, before they have identified you as a botting player and taken punitive action against you.   

I'm just glad I farmed the last bit of Karma I needed last week because htis week I wouldn't be able to farm so fast and I'm glad i'm done heh.

Cheers

Edit:  Btw, forgot to mention, last week the Karma Cap before DR hit you was around 20K karma, then they changed it down to 10K karam.  With a 50% karma booster, I was easily having to relog every hour or less because of this.  Stinks they put such huge amount of karma you need to the armor then won't let you get it in a timely fashion.  Not sure how long the karma cap is now with the Oct 1 past.  my 2 cents.

 Thanks for defining that.  The concept of DR is repugnant, but the amount seems reasonable at least.  I have been playing since launch 3 + hours a day and only have 5k Karma saved up.  Granted I have not been running many public quests lately, but 10k per day sounds okay for most players. 

Except that, there was a perception in the community that the DR was code was buggy. ANet went silent on us, then, earlier this week, admitted that the community was pretty much correct in it's perception. The code was indeed buggy.

 

The fan outrage exists because DR was implemented it's true, but also because the 'secret' way it was implemented, the fact that it was implemented poorly and that Anet went AWOL in communicating, which is VERY different from their MO. It left a LARGE amount of us feeling like we were being punished and we're TOC abiding 'good' players, so why are we being punished for playing legally and supporting Anet?

  User Deleted
10/04/12 6:45:46 PM#114
Originally posted by Digna

The  bots remain even after days and report upon report. The DR is affect legit players more then the bots.

<Snipped> 

I really like gW2 w but this is getting seriously cocked up :/

I agree. I'm still cheesed about the whole account security issue and the ham-handed responses to hacked accounts. I will continue to evangelize on the subject. TWO-FACTOR AUTHENTICATION. Yes, WoW has bots and goldspammers but it does NOT have the amount that GW2 currently does and Blizz does a FAR better job dealing with it. Anet is fumbling the issue right now.

  User Deleted
10/04/12 6:50:18 PM#115
Originally posted by evolver1972

For those who think Anet is just blowing the topic off and not bothering to respond and thereby waging war on its fanbase:

 

From Jon Peters (taken from the official forum thread on this topic):

 

We thought we should put in our 2 cents as well.

Guild Wars 2 is a game about freedom. We want you to be able to explore the world and engage in a huge variety of activities, focusing on whatever best suits your tastes.

Some players have run into “diminishing returns” thresholds we put into the game to provide a safety net against unanticipated economy-breaking issues. We do have these thresholds in place, but it’s not our intention that normal players should ever run into them. We’ve recently had bugs and imbalances that have caused normal players to hit thresholds, and we’ll fix those.

These systems are put in place to protect the economy from botters and exploiters. We will close exploits as quickly as we can. These thresholds help create a safety net to keep the economy safe when we aren’t there to deal with the offender. It’s important to have a safety net in place. It would be bad for everyone if, for example, a group of players learned how to speed-clear a dungeon in 5 minutes, with full rewards each time, and then repeated that continuously. When one activity emerges that’s order of magnitudes more profitable than anything else in the game, it forces everyone to either engage in that activity or get priced out of the economy.

While we need a safety net to stop unanticipated economy-breaking exploits and botting, we have no desire to stop farming. Farmers are a part every online economy and when they are doing normal game activity they do not cause any harm. If a player finds a normal game activity fun and would like to keep doing it, that’s fine with us.

Initially we have to rely on smaller data sets, instinct and some guesswork to find the correct cutoff. What this means is that some players are going to bump into the edges of these systems for a while as we get them sorted out. Please bear with us while we gather more data and lower the safety net until it’s only providing critical economy protection. Looking at the numbers this morning, we believe some of the threshold systems are just too harsh empirically and we’ll be adjusting those systems within the next few weeks to ensure that fewer legitimate players are being impacted.

I hope this helps to explain why a game like this needs systems such as this to protect its economy. I also hope it gives some insight into our philosophy about botters (BAD) and exploiters (BAD) vs. farmers (GOOD). Thanks for your support and we will see you in game.

Jon

 

Here's the entire thread.  Jon's response is on page 5.

 
 
So, they are looking into it and are already planning on changing it.  Patience people!  Remember, the game is only a month old.  And yes, broken things are really annoying, but I'm confident they are being addressed as quickly as possible.

I see your point and I agree, the game is only just over a month old. I get it. However... the DR code has been in for quite some time now and his 'mea culpa' was THE FIRST official word on it. Had he spoken up sooner, I think the community would've been more forgiving. 

Also, I'd like to point out that he admitted DR was implemented to deal with botting. This has been a contentious issue here and in other places (official forums, Reddit) where many people were quick to flame any suggestion that DR code was put in place to counter botting.

  Nevulus

Apprentice Member

Joined: 8/23/06
Posts: 1202

10/04/12 6:56:14 PM#116

Since the rise of DR there are even more bots now in Orr than before. They are teleporting around, throwing off the waves of mobs, and plain being disruptive.

At the Shelter's gate waypoint in Orr on Tarnished Coast server there are, as of right now, 11 bots, 5 of which run around in circles all day, ALL DAY attacking spawn pops. On the northern waypoints there is another 4 more bots.

Before DR there were only 4 bots at most. Is DR working? In my opinion no, but it must exist for the sake of the economy and progression.

 

sidenote: I've been reporting the same 4 bots since the end of the first week of launch, they are still there now with more bots  =/

  MosesZD

Novice Member

Joined: 2/10/12
Posts: 1407

10/05/12 6:56:31 AM#117
Originally posted by Xzen
I agree the DR system completely fails to do what it was supposed to do and they would be better off just to get rid of it.

 

No it doesn't.  If it failed, we wouldn't have all these threads complaining about it...

 

  AvatarBlade

Apprentice Member

Joined: 7/11/06
Posts: 769

10/05/12 7:05:35 AM#118
While I see how DR on money can be implemented for fighting bots, I really can't see the point of karma DR. Everything you buy with it is account bound and I doubt bots are farming karma, since the way they work is highly inefficient for farming it anyway. Unless they plan to make it so you can convert karma to gold, I see no point in having a DR on it, especially considering you need close to 1 million probably if you  want a legendary.
  Stx11

Novice Member

Joined: 11/28/09
Posts: 420

10/05/12 7:11:12 AM#119
Originally posted by AvatarBlade
While I see how DR on money can be implemented for fighting bots, I really can't see the point of karma DR. Everything you buy with it is account bound and I doubt bots are farming karma, since the way they work is highly inefficient for farming it anyway. Unless they plan to make it so you can convert karma to gold, I see no point in having a DR on it, especially considering you need close to 1 million probably if you  want a legendary.

There are "Defense" DEs that people were Botting/AFK Farming for Karma so sadly no DR needs to be on Karma too.

  AvatarBlade

Apprentice Member

Joined: 7/11/06
Posts: 769

10/05/12 7:16:02 AM#120
Originally posted by Stx11
Originally posted by AvatarBlade
While I see how DR on money can be implemented for fighting bots, I really can't see the point of karma DR. Everything you buy with it is account bound and I doubt bots are farming karma, since the way they work is highly inefficient for farming it anyway. Unless they plan to make it so you can convert karma to gold, I see no point in having a DR on it, especially considering you need close to 1 million probably if you  want a legendary.

There are "Defense" DEs that people were Botting/AFK Farming for Karma so sadly no DR needs to be on Karma too.

They happen like once every 15 minutes. You don't get hit by the DR if you only do, let's say, only the 2 events in Orr that are close to eachother. You get hit by the DR only if you make around 6k karma in 30 min and no bot or afk player is going to to that ever.

It also doesn't impact the economy, everything is account bound.

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