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The Pub at MMORPG.COM  » Are developers powerless to truly stop bots?

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94 posts found
  neobahamut20

Apprentice Member

Joined: 4/03/12
Posts: 362

We can only show them the path, but they have to be the ones to take it.

10/04/12 12:35:10 PM#41
 

Deleting this seems harder than it should be.

Boycotting EA. Why? They suck, even moreso since 2008.

  neobahamut20

Apprentice Member

Joined: 4/03/12
Posts: 362

We can only show them the path, but they have to be the ones to take it.

10/04/12 12:42:21 PM#42
Originally posted by fenistil
Originally posted by SnarlingWolf
Originally posted by FrodoFragins
Originally posted by SnarlingWolf

The only way it would ever stop is for gamers to stop buying the gold/services. Nothing else will stop it.

That will NEVER happen.  Ever.  Some people have little time to play games but plenty of disposable income.

 

If that is your stance, we might as well encourage bots.

It is not a stance, it is actual and undisputable fact. That is in all actuallity the only way that botting will ever stop. Nothing else, ever will make botting stop. EVER.

 

That is why my first post referenced the drug war. You can throw billions of dollars, lengthy jail terms and even death at people to try and stop something. But if there is enough profit to be made, they won't stop. With botting, an account gets closed so the punishment is far less and the profits are still very strong.

 

So yes, because there are a-holes who will always fund the botters, there will always be botters. It will never stop.

Do you close door to your apartment or your car?

Because you're aware nothing will stop robbing houses and robbing / stealing car?

I have no argument either so I'll say something that doesnt make sense and doesn't apply to this line of thought.

Do you kill yourself because nothing will stop you from dying anyways?

Boycotting EA. Why? They suck, even moreso since 2008.

  kaiser3282

Tipster

Joined: 5/21/08
Posts: 2691

10/04/12 12:42:59 PM#43
Originally posted by SnarlingWolf
Originally posted by kaiser3282
Originally posted by SnarlingWolf
Originally posted by FrodoFragins
Originally posted by SnarlingWolf

The only way it would ever stop is for gamers to stop buying the gold/services. Nothing else will stop it.

That will NEVER happen.  Ever.  Some people have little time to play games but plenty of disposable income.

 

If that is your stance, we might as well encourage bots.

It is not a stance, it is actual and undisputable fact. That is in all actuallity the only way that botting will ever stop. Nothing else, ever will make botting stop. EVER.

 

That is why my first post referenced the drug war. You can throw billions of dollars, lengthy jail terms and even death at people to try and stop something. But if there is enough profit to be made, they won't stop. With botting, an account gets closed so the punishment is far less and the profits are still very strong.

 

So yes, because there are a-holes who will always fund the botters, there will always be botters. It will never stop.

Do you realize not all bots are for gold sellers? Theres tons of people spread amongst all the MMOs that bot for themselves so that they can let the bot do the work and level them up because they dont feel like doing it. Especially in F2P games because of their usual lengthy grind for levels.

Hell just look at private servers too. People bot there, but theres no gold selling going on. They bot simply to get ahead in the game without having to do any of the work.

This is my first day playing MMOs and I did not know people did such things, my apologies. Probably overly sarcastic but I don't think your first "question" was really necessary.

 

There is a difference.

 

First is the pure magnitude of it. Those botting while they're away to gain levels/resources are less than those who do it to sell gold. They also generally don't try to hack/steal accounts either.

Second: banning those accounts actually has an effect. It is a regular person who paid for this game and just lost money. They also lost time because even though they let a program level them up/gather their resources they just lost it all and would have to buy a new box/start a new sub and start over with the risk of losing it all again.

 

Those who do it for personal gain, don't steal accounts, don't sell gold are less of a problem and can actually be policed.

The thread is regarding stopping botting (as well as hacks such as teleport hacks & dupe hacks as stated in the OP), not just gold selling. You said botting will stop, when youre talking about something else (gold selling) stopping.

Yes there is a difference in the goals of the 2 types, but the means is the same. Bots & gold selling exists in F2P as well. How does your idea regarding "stolen" accounts and players having to buy a new game apply?

  FrodoFragins

Hard Core Member

Joined: 4/29/10
Posts: 2798

 
OP  10/04/12 12:48:52 PM#44
Originally posted by SnarlingWolf

Same reason they keep flushing away billions of dollars trying to win the drug war. You have to LOOK like you're doing something and you care, otherwise everyone gets mad at you.

 

It's been a long time since anyone claimed we could WIN a war on drugs.  We will never legalize Crystal Meth or hard drugs that ruin lives and families.  It's our duty to do our best to keep them off the street.

 

It's in developers best interest to try and keep bots under control.  Otherwise the game economy tanks and people leave in droves.  There is zero reason why devs can't run software on the client that checks other running processes and at least prevent the public bots from running.  There's zero reason why ANET can't prevent teleport or speed hacks.

  SnarlingWolf

Novice Member

Joined: 6/23/09
Posts: 2728

10/04/12 12:52:39 PM#45
Originally posted by FrodoFragins
Originally posted by SnarlingWolf

Same reason they keep flushing away billions of dollars trying to win the drug war. You have to LOOK like you're doing something and you care, otherwise everyone gets mad at you.

 

It's been a long time since anyone claimed we could WIN a war on drugs.  We will never legalize Crystal Meth or hard drugs that ruin lives and families.  It's our duty to do our best to keep them off the street.

 

It's in developers best interest to try and keep bots under control.  Otherwise the game economy tanks and people leave in droves.  There is zero reason why devs can't run software on the client that checks other running processes and at least prevent the public bots from running.  There's zero reason why ANET can't prevent teleport or speed hacks.

Let's say you do fully stop teleporting and speed hacks. Great you still haven't stopped botting.

 

Ok you check for certain running processes. The botters just change the processes constantly to beat your detection methods. You haven't stopped botting.

 

You can police it, you can ban some, but..... you will NEVER stop botting.

  fenistil

Novice Member

Joined: 9/22/11
Posts: 3016

10/04/12 12:56:18 PM#46
Originally posted by neobahamut20
Originally posted by fenistil
Originally posted by SnarlingWolf
Originally posted by FrodoFragins
Originally posted by SnarlingWolf

The only way it would ever stop is for gamers to stop buying the gold/services. Nothing else will stop it.

That will NEVER happen.  Ever.  Some people have little time to play games but plenty of disposable income.

 

If that is your stance, we might as well encourage bots.

It is not a stance, it is actual and undisputable fact. That is in all actuallity the only way that botting will ever stop. Nothing else, ever will make botting stop. EVER.

 

That is why my first post referenced the drug war. You can throw billions of dollars, lengthy jail terms and even death at people to try and stop something. But if there is enough profit to be made, they won't stop. With botting, an account gets closed so the punishment is far less and the profits are still very strong.

 

So yes, because there are a-holes who will always fund the botters, there will always be botters. It will never stop.

Do you close door to your apartment or your car?

Because you're aware nothing will stop robbing houses and robbing / stealing car?

I have no argument either so I'll say something that doesnt make sense and doesn't apply to this line of thought.

Do you kill yourself because nothing will stop you from dying anyways?

Many people live in a way to increase possiblity that they will live long by either avoiding dangerous situations or by eating and living healthy or by doing both of those things.

Remember I am against fighting battles that never can be decisilely and totally won, so your argument cannot be used against my reasoning.

  SnarlingWolf

Novice Member

Joined: 6/23/09
Posts: 2728

10/04/12 12:59:04 PM#47
Originally posted by kaiser3282
Originally posted by SnarlingWolf
Originally posted by kaiser3282
Originally posted by SnarlingWolf
Originally posted by FrodoFragins
Originally posted by SnarlingWolf

The only way it would ever stop is for gamers to stop buying the gold/services. Nothing else will stop it.

That will NEVER happen.  Ever.  Some people have little time to play games but plenty of disposable income.

 

If that is your stance, we might as well encourage bots.

It is not a stance, it is actual and undisputable fact. That is in all actuallity the only way that botting will ever stop. Nothing else, ever will make botting stop. EVER.

 

That is why my first post referenced the drug war. You can throw billions of dollars, lengthy jail terms and even death at people to try and stop something. But if there is enough profit to be made, they won't stop. With botting, an account gets closed so the punishment is far less and the profits are still very strong.

 

So yes, because there are a-holes who will always fund the botters, there will always be botters. It will never stop.

Do you realize not all bots are for gold sellers? Theres tons of people spread amongst all the MMOs that bot for themselves so that they can let the bot do the work and level them up because they dont feel like doing it. Especially in F2P games because of their usual lengthy grind for levels.

Hell just look at private servers too. People bot there, but theres no gold selling going on. They bot simply to get ahead in the game without having to do any of the work.

This is my first day playing MMOs and I did not know people did such things, my apologies. Probably overly sarcastic but I don't think your first "question" was really necessary.

 

There is a difference.

 

First is the pure magnitude of it. Those botting while they're away to gain levels/resources are less than those who do it to sell gold. They also generally don't try to hack/steal accounts either.

Second: banning those accounts actually has an effect. It is a regular person who paid for this game and just lost money. They also lost time because even though they let a program level them up/gather their resources they just lost it all and would have to buy a new box/start a new sub and start over with the risk of losing it all again.

 

Those who do it for personal gain, don't steal accounts, don't sell gold are less of a problem and can actually be policed.

The thread is regarding stopping botting (as well as hacks such as teleport hacks & dupe hacks as stated in the OP), not just gold selling. You said botting will stop, when youre talking about something else (gold selling) stopping.

Yes there is a difference in the goals of the 2 types, but the means is the same. Bots & gold selling exists in F2P as well. How does your idea regarding "stolen" accounts and players having to buy a new game apply?

I'm not talking gold selling. I'm talking one type of botting, by far the most prevelant one, which is done to sell items for real world money. If no one purchased a single thing from them..... it would stop it 100% because there would be no gain to doing it at all.

 

Somehow you're trying to prove something I said wrong with your second sentence but you are really proving my point. My point was that there is little to no penalty to an item/gold selling botter when caught. They either hack another account or start up a new one and keep on going. Yes, with F2P where the accounts cost nothing to begin with so the penalties are even less -> increased botting.

 

 

A person who does it purely to get their character ahead is the easiest type of bot to police because a ban to them does actually effect them. Even in a F2P game, they just had all of their progress erased. If each time they try to bot up to max level/max gear and keep having their account erased. They give up and leave as it is not worth it. It is the far less common and intrusive type of botting (because it does have risks and because a lot of people simply don't have the desire to do it) and it is the only type that could actually be close to eliminated by policing/detection methods.

  FrodoFragins

Hard Core Member

Joined: 4/29/10
Posts: 2798

 
OP  10/04/12 1:00:03 PM#48
Originally posted by SnarlingWolf

Let's say you do fully stop teleporting and speed hacks. Great you still haven't stopped botting.

 

Ok you check for certain running processes. The botters just change the processes constantly to beat your detection methods. You haven't stopped botting.

 

You can police it, you can ban some, but..... you will NEVER stop botting.

That's obvious, and I clearly should have worded things better.  There will always be some bots out there.  That's a no brainer.  But Blizzard and ANET seem resigned to not even try to halt the public bots.  That's really what I'm getting at.

  fenistil

Novice Member

Joined: 9/22/11
Posts: 3016

10/04/12 1:00:12 PM#49
Originally posted by SnarlingWolf
Originally posted by FrodoFragins
Originally posted by SnarlingWolf

Same reason they keep flushing away billions of dollars trying to win the drug war. You have to LOOK like you're doing something and you care, otherwise everyone gets mad at you.

 

It's been a long time since anyone claimed we could WIN a war on drugs.  We will never legalize Crystal Meth or hard drugs that ruin lives and families.  It's our duty to do our best to keep them off the street.

 

It's in developers best interest to try and keep bots under control.  Otherwise the game economy tanks and people leave in droves.  There is zero reason why devs can't run software on the client that checks other running processes and at least prevent the public bots from running.  There's zero reason why ANET can't prevent teleport or speed hacks.

Let's say you do fully stop teleporting and speed hacks. Great you still haven't stopped botting.

 

Ok you check for certain running processes. The botters just change the processes constantly to beat your detection methods. You haven't stopped botting.

 

You can police it, you can ban some, but..... you will NEVER stop botting.

I think you miss the point.  It is NOT about getting rid of the botting totally. It is about making it less common and minimizing it's effect.

You may not know but it is same principle that lies under fundament of law and law enforcement.   You will NEVER be able to stop crimes or mistakes but that does not mean that there should be no police or that there should be no auditing.

  SnarlingWolf

Novice Member

Joined: 6/23/09
Posts: 2728

10/04/12 1:01:28 PM#50

Since people want to believe that botting can be fully stopped I guess there isn't much point in opening their eyes. But suffice it to say, they will be dissappointed in online games for the rest of their lives.

 

I will let them continue on with the amazing technology that an MMO company could implement, but for some strange reason won't, that will stop all botting and lead to a Hands Across the Virtual World day.

  FrodoFragins

Hard Core Member

Joined: 4/29/10
Posts: 2798

 
OP  10/04/12 1:01:54 PM#51
Originally posted by fenistil
Originally posted by SnarlingWolf
Originally posted by FrodoFragins
Originally posted by SnarlingWolf

Same reason they keep flushing away billions of dollars trying to win the drug war. You have to LOOK like you're doing something and you care, otherwise everyone gets mad at you.

 

It's been a long time since anyone claimed we could WIN a war on drugs.  We will never legalize Crystal Meth or hard drugs that ruin lives and families.  It's our duty to do our best to keep them off the street.

 

It's in developers best interest to try and keep bots under control.  Otherwise the game economy tanks and people leave in droves.  There is zero reason why devs can't run software on the client that checks other running processes and at least prevent the public bots from running.  There's zero reason why ANET can't prevent teleport or speed hacks.

Let's say you do fully stop teleporting and speed hacks. Great you still haven't stopped botting.

 

Ok you check for certain running processes. The botters just change the processes constantly to beat your detection methods. You haven't stopped botting.

 

You can police it, you can ban some, but..... you will NEVER stop botting.

I think you miss the point.  It is NOT about getting rid of the botting totally. It is about making it less common and minimizing it's effect.

You may not know but it is same principle that lies under fundament of law and law enforcement.   You will NEVER be able to stop crimes or mistakes but that does not mean that there should be no police or that there should be no auditing.

He's just arguing over semantics and absolutes.  It's really pointless to discuss with him at this point.

  fenistil

Novice Member

Joined: 9/22/11
Posts: 3016

10/04/12 1:03:12 PM#52
Originally posted by SnarlingWolf

Since people want to believe that botting can be fully stopped

You are trolling now since there were multiple posts stating something totally opposite.

 

@FrodoFragins

Seems you're right.

  SnarlingWolf

Novice Member

Joined: 6/23/09
Posts: 2728

10/04/12 1:03:13 PM#53
Originally posted by fenistil
Originally posted by SnarlingWolf
Originally posted by FrodoFragins
Originally posted by SnarlingWolf

Same reason they keep flushing away billions of dollars trying to win the drug war. You have to LOOK like you're doing something and you care, otherwise everyone gets mad at you.

 

It's been a long time since anyone claimed we could WIN a war on drugs.  We will never legalize Crystal Meth or hard drugs that ruin lives and families.  It's our duty to do our best to keep them off the street.

 

It's in developers best interest to try and keep bots under control.  Otherwise the game economy tanks and people leave in droves.  There is zero reason why devs can't run software on the client that checks other running processes and at least prevent the public bots from running.  There's zero reason why ANET can't prevent teleport or speed hacks.

Let's say you do fully stop teleporting and speed hacks. Great you still haven't stopped botting.

 

Ok you check for certain running processes. The botters just change the processes constantly to beat your detection methods. You haven't stopped botting.

 

You can police it, you can ban some, but..... you will NEVER stop botting.

I think you miss the point.  It is NOT about getting rid of the botting totally. It is about making it less common and minimizing it's effect.

You may not know but it is same principle that lies under fundament of law and law enforcement.   You will NEVER be able to stop crimes or mistakes but that does not mean that there should be no police or that there should be no auditing.

Read the title of the thread. "Are developers powerless to trult stop bots" the answer is YES, it cannot be stopped.

 

You can lessen it and take a few botters out here and there, but the point of the thread actually IS to have botting be 100% stopped, which is impossible.

 

If people think they will log into an MMO where no one will ever try to sell them gold or they will never run across people botting, they're crazy. They might as well start a thread on why spam mail hasn't been erased from the world yet.

  fenistil

Novice Member

Joined: 9/22/11
Posts: 3016

10/04/12 1:06:00 PM#54
Originally posted by SnarlingWolf
Originally posted by fenistil
 

Read the title of the thread. "Are developers powerless to trult stop bots" the answer is YES, it cannot be stopped.

 

You can lessen it and take a few botters out here and there, but the point of the thread actually IS to have botting be 100% stopped, which is impossible.

 

If people think they will log into an MMO where no one will ever try to sell them gold or they will never run across people botting, they're crazy. They might as well start a thread on why spam mail hasn't been erased from the world yet.

You're arguing semantics in topic title instead of discussing actual thing?

That's really low what you're doing.

  Aelious

Elite Member

Joined: 9/27/11
Posts: 2543

World > Quest Progression

10/04/12 1:15:34 PM#55
To answer the OP:

Not completely without some effect on the players. You could take away macros and bindings, that would solve things short term if the UI can be static. Maybe a fluid reactionary combat system where you have to click?

Aion tried at first to have a hold on bots but the players threw a fit about Gamguard. In hindsight it may have been better to ignore fans on that one since bot infestation kept the game from being as big as it could have been right out of the gate IMO.

At this point easy tools for reporting and quick reactions on the part of a developer will be your best bet past filters and monitoring tools. F2P/B2P makes things a bit worse. Botting and spamming (mail and chat) are part of the reason I agree with SoE's method of locking out mail and broker to free players. It's been complained about plenty but you can't deny the results.
  SnarlingWolf

Novice Member

Joined: 6/23/09
Posts: 2728

10/04/12 1:17:55 PM#56
Originally posted by fenistil
Originally posted by SnarlingWolf
Originally posted by fenistil
 

Read the title of the thread. "Are developers powerless to trult stop bots" the answer is YES, it cannot be stopped.

 

You can lessen it and take a few botters out here and there, but the point of the thread actually IS to have botting be 100% stopped, which is impossible.

 

If people think they will log into an MMO where no one will ever try to sell them gold or they will never run across people botting, they're crazy. They might as well start a thread on why spam mail hasn't been erased from the world yet.

You're arguing semantics in topic title instead of discussing actual thing?

That's really low what you're doing.

It is low because I am destroying the fantasy that botting will disappear, or to put it in words you prefer almost disappear?

 

I'll change the phrase to this then. Botting will NEVER be cut down to a minimal level that will have no impact on the community of a game.

 

I've held the same stance the entire thread. Because it is correct you and Frodo have resorted to arguing semantics instead of coming up with a way that it is wrong. Yet I am the one arguing semantics.

 

You and Frodo can go on believing that 5-10 years from now botting will be so well controlled it will be so minimal people won't even know it exists and then be completely shocked when it is still rampant. I will understand it will not be defeated or minimized and will not be the least bit shocked when I see it.

 

There have been realistic people in this thread. Saying for example "You can't do anything but whack a mole them as they pop up" which is correct. But you seem to think otherwise with no real solid reasoning to why.

 

You mention real life law enforcement. Well you'd probably be interested to see that murder rates, theft, etc. rise and fall constantly over time. The biggest factor in the rising and falling isn't the enforcement, it is the community. When the community is stronger, when economies are better/unemployment lower, the crime rates go down. The same would be true for botting, as less and less people buy the goods, the rate of botting will go down. As more buy it the rate will go up, regardless of the enforcement.

 

Law is really there to stop only those who fear the consequences by showing a presence. There will always be plenty who don't fear the consequences and that is why crime will always exist no matter how much enforcement you throw at the problem.

 

That goes all the way back to the original point I made, and the still only truthful way to stop (or minimalize) botting. The community has to stop buying from them. That isn't going to happen, botting will always be a significant factor.

 

Now you can go back to debating without focusing on the fact I said fully stop and can now argue the words mostly stop.

 

  Quizzical

Guide

Joined: 12/11/08
Posts: 13768

10/04/12 1:46:22 PM#57

If a game has warping hacks, it's due to a very badly designed game engine.  The cardinal rule of fighting cheats is, as a game developer put it about a decade ago:  "Don't trust the client.  The client is in the hands of the enemy."

Most of the computational work has to be done on the client.  But that's okay, as most of the computational work can't be used to cheat.  If someone manages to hack the client to make a character invisible, or make a texture look different, so what?

The fundamental rule is that anything that can be used to cheat must be done server-side.  In some cases, such as the loot that mobs drop or the damage that attacks do, the original computations should be done server side, and then the server can inform the client of the results.

Some things such as movement must be done both server-side and client-side.  The game initially does the computations client-side, so that when you say to move forward, your character appears to move forward immediately.  If the way movement worked was that you pressed a button to move, and then the client told the server you were trying to move, and waited for the server to tell the client that it's okay to move, and only then showed you actually moving, then the game would feel horribly laggy.

But movement must be rigorously checked server-side, too.  The client tells the server that it moved in such and such a manner, and then the server has to check to see whether that is possible.  To some degree, the server has to trust the client on saying when it moved, as if you don't officially move until the server finds out about it, controls will feel very laggy.

The key is that how much the server trusts the client must be strictly limited to what is necessary to cover up Internet latency.  For example, a client can say that you started moving at such and such a time, and if the server sees it within 200 ms (or some other arbitrary figure), it accepts it.  And if not, then it says, no, you didn't start moving until 200 ms before I found out about it--and then tells the client to rubber-band the player back to where the player "really" is.

So if a player hacks the client to be able to teleport around, it's necessary for it to initially appear on the client that the teleport hack has worked.  But then the client tells the server where he is, and the server must quickly check it and say, no, it's not possible for you to have moved from here to there that quickly.  And then the server must tell the client that he is actually over there instead, and the player rubber-bands back.  And the server must check before it broadcasts the cheater's new location to other players.

Guild Wars 1 notably wasn't very good about this, either.  Remember how you'd be running along, then start taking damage from nothing in particular, and then finally rubber-band back to where you were 10 seconds ago?  Checks should be more frequent, so that you rubber-band back within a fraction of a second.

That Guild Wars 2 apparently hasn't gotten the rubber-banding right either makes me wonder if Guild Wars 1 had lots of bots teleporting around, too, but we just never saw it because they were off in their own instances.

In ArenaNet's defense, covering up Internet latency in online games is very, very hard to do.  For many games, it's probably the single hardest to program thing in the entire game.  For a game to be played over a LAN or to be turn-based (like Wizard 101 or Atlantica, not the "auto-attack every 2.2 seconds" that some people mistakenly call turn-based) makes this much easier, but that's not an option for many online games.  This is wandering off on a tangent, but I'm going to copy and paste from another thread just to make a point of how nasty to deal with Internet latency is:

-----

If you're 1000 miles away from the server, then it would take light a little more than 5 ms to travel that distance in a vacuum. That means that if there's one event that occurs on your computer, and another event that occurs on the server, observers at different points in the universe wouldn't necessarily agree on the time gap between them. If the events occurred at close enough times, there might be disagreement as to which happened "first". Even if they agree on which event came first, they could disagree with as to the time gap between them by as much as a little over 10 ms. This isn't a measurement error or because the observers are stupid, either; it's the nature of the universe.

So now, a player sitting in his house playing your game presses a button to attack. At what time should the attack officially take place? The time at which the event "occurs" in his house doesn't match your server, let alone any other players connected to your server. And then actually transmitting it from the client to the server takes longer yet.

The naive answer is, the attack occurs when the server finds out about it. But that's the wrong answer. That will make the game feel horribly laggy and players will complain. You have to accept that attacks started before the server finds out about them. But how long before? Surely to a player, it shouldn't look on his own computer like the attack started before he pressed a button. And what about other players that don't find out about it until later?

And how do you synchronize the time between the server and the various players, anyway? If it's 3:48 pm on the server and 3:47 pm on a player's computer because one of the clocks is slightly off, attacks that register on the server shouldn't take a full minute to appear on a player's computer. But you can't perfectly synchronize time because, not merely does it take varying amounts of time to transmit data, but saying two events in different places happened "at the same time" is scientific nonsense, as discussed above.

And yet, every event in the game world needs to appear to a player as though it happened at some exact time. And it has to seem like it happened at a logical time, so that it doesn't look to the player like things are rubber-banding or it's taking a long time for the game to accept anything he tells it to do.

There isn't a perfect solution to this. But if you can't come up with a passable solution, you can't make a real-time MMORPG, whether seamless, heavily-zoned, or anything else. You could still make something that is completely turn-based--not the real-time attack every 2.2 seconds that players sometimes call "turn-based", but really turn-based along the lines of Civilization.

  fenistil

Novice Member

Joined: 9/22/11
Posts: 3016

10/04/12 1:51:38 PM#58
Originally posted by SnarlingWolf
Originally posted by fenistil
Originally posted by SnarlingWolf
Originally posted by fenistil
 

Read the title of the thread. "Are developers powerless to trult stop bots" the answer is YES, it cannot be stopped.

 

You can lessen it and take a few botters out here and there, but the point of the thread actually IS to have botting be 100% stopped, which is impossible.

 

If people think they will log into an MMO where no one will ever try to sell them gold or they will never run across people botting, they're crazy. They might as well start a thread on why spam mail hasn't been erased from the world yet.

You're arguing semantics in topic title instead of discussing actual thing?

That's really low what you're doing.

It is low because I am destroying the fantasy that botting will disappear, or to put it in words you prefer almost disappear?

 

[...]

 

There have been realistic people in this thread. Saying for example "You can't do anything but whack a mole them as they pop up" which is correct. But you seem to think otherwise with no real solid reasoning to why.

 

[...]

 

That goes all the way back to the original point I made, and the still only truthful way to stop (or minimalize) botting. The community has to stop buying from them. That isn't going to happen, botting will always be a significant factor.

Think you either missed or ignored some possible solutions.

In example running aimbots or cheats on PS3 is very hard.   Most of times it will require jailbreak which is pain in butt to do and if you play online you end up get banned from PSN and online gaming sooner or later.

What's an effect?   There is very few cheaters on PS3 online fps than on same games on PC.

Sure they still are but diffrence is collosal.

 

For real life crime thingie - most places in the world with low crime rate was achieved as a combination fighting with extreme poverty and high success rate of police investigations in small cases (small thievery,  destruction of property, etc).

This is true for Scandivian countries in example.

If you have wealthy society but shit police it does not work (Mediolan, Rome) as good.

If you have big difftences in wealth in society and relatively high poverty (some places in US) this does not work as well.

 

Changes in community / society have to be supported or sometimes even triggered (either by some high authority or as an community response to some big event or big pain in butt for a long time) they don't magically appear out of blue.

  Jaedor

Elite Member

Joined: 8/17/09
Posts: 1012

10/04/12 1:53:20 PM#59

Not sure how LOTRO does it but I've never seen a bot, gold spammer or goldseller in that mmo. Someone told me ages ago that it had to do with chat channels having boundaries to the local zone but I have no idea if that's still relevant.


Whatever it is, it's a great system that works.

  SnarlingWolf

Novice Member

Joined: 6/23/09
Posts: 2728

10/04/12 2:05:48 PM#60
Originally posted by fenistil

Think you either missed or ignored some possible solutions.

In example running aimbots or cheats on PS3 is very hard.   Most of times it will require jailbreak which is pain in butt to do and if you play online you end up get banned from PSN and online gaming sooner or later.

What's an effect?   There is very few cheaters on PS3 online fps than on same games on PC.

Sure they still are but diffrence is collosal.

I didn't miss or ignore that case because that is CHEATING not BOTTING. And no this isn't a semantics point, those are two very different topics.

 

Cheating is breaking the systems to get an advantage, aim hacks is a good example.

Botting is having the computer run your character for you.

 

Botting isn't common in the FPS genre to begin with because there isn't much to gain with it, especially in all of the non progression ones.

I will give you, even though it isn't really on topic, that cheating in FPS games has gone down from when the genre was young. I remember characters flying up into the air and teleporting around in Delta Force and the early instant aim hacks in Counter Strike (although it was fun to watch how many people say it was impossible to create a program that would auto head shot for so long before finally getting proof that it was possible). Even leagues like the ESEA still ban people for cheating on a regular basis and they have their own cheat software on top of the valve anti-cheat software. You just don't run into it in every single match your in which is further helped by the vote to kick player option. If your cheating is obvious you'll be kicked quickly making it not as worth it.

 

However, it isn't a reasonable comparison. Outside of cheating in a tournament, there is no financial gain in cheating in FPS gains. So if it is a pain to keep trying to get around the system to embarass people for a little bit, the amount that it is done goes down. With MMO botting there are significant gains to be made so the effort will always be there.

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